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Lurana Lay Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.23 04:12:00 - [421] Quote: You are right, missiles need to be nerfed some more PS: Target painter You're an diot ot troll I'm guessing, you sure as hell don't use missiles much regardless. Yeah, go ahead and jump into a Raven with a single painter and even a web and fight a Blasterboat now and see what happens.
Lady Karma	Posted - 2008.11.23 04:16:00 - [422] Edited by: Lady Karma on 23/11/2008 04:18:01 Originally by: Lurana Lay Quote: You are right, missiles need to be nerfed some more PS: Target painter You're an diot ot troll I'm guessing, you sure as hell don't use missiles much regardless. Yeah, go ahead and jump into a Raven with a single painter and even a web and fight a Blasterboat now and see what happens. Oh touched a nerve did we. If you can't think of how a torp raven can kill a blaster boat with the web nerf, then you are clearly the idiot. (stick to missions, its apparent that you don't pvp)
Kanagawa	Posted - 2008.11.23 04:18:00 - [423] Originally by: Lady Karma Edited by: Lady Karma on 23/11/2008 04:10:40 Originally by: Kanagawa The insufficient range of Blasters has been addressed, not comparable. Fixed your post. Serious response, you are talking about torps. What kind of set up are you using where a torp outranges a target painter? you're right, that would of been a cruise missile issue, would like that comparison as well.... cruise verse rails, effects of tracking computers verse target painters...
Lady Karma	Posted - 2008.11.23 04:21:00 - [424] Originally by: Kanagawa you're right, that would of been a cruise missile issue, would like that comparison as well.... cruise verse rails, effects of tracking computers verse target painters... Are you talking about missions or pvp. No one would use a blaster mega in PVE. If you mean pvp, again, why would you be fighting outside target painter range even with cruise. If you want to snipe, use rails, arties or lasers. However, all those turrets have terrible tracking when things get under the range of the guns. Something cruise missiles never had a problem with. "Tracking" on missiles is still far better than any long range turret.
Kanagawa	Posted - 2008.11.23 04:25:00 - [425] Edited by: Kanagawa on 23/11/2008 04:25:35 I guess i have to go back to the formulas and how they are setup. What affects how well a guns tracks? Just trans speed, or sig as well? Whats the ratio? And how does this compare to missiles and their use of explosion radius.... PVP
Khamal Jolstien Caldari Product Number 3	Posted - 2008.11.23 04:45:00 - [426] Originally by: Lady Karma Originally by: Kanagawa you're right, that would of been a cruise missile issue, would like that comparison as well.... cruise verse rails, effects of tracking computers verse target painters... Are you talking about missions or pvp. No one would use a blaster mega in PVE. If you mean pvp, again, why would you be fighting outside target painter range even with cruise. If you want to snipe, use rails, arties or lasers. However, all those turrets have terrible tracking when things get under the range of the guns. Something cruise missiles never had a problem with. "Tracking" on missiles is still far better than any long range turret. Not having to worry about tracking was the tradeoff we got for subpar damage, non-instant damage, and all the other problems missiles had.
Tyremis Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.11.23 05:04:00 - [427] after ccp taking our nanos from us im really enjoying this thread
Brea Lafail	Posted - 2008.11.23 05:19:00 - [428] Originally by: Tyremis after ccp taking our nanos from us im really enjoying this thread C'mon, weren't you dieing to be able to fit something other than speed mods?
Sanjuro Yojimbo Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.23 06:07:00 - [429] i agree that the nerf was too harsh, being fairly new to the game, (just over a year) and not having much combat training, missiles were a good way to go to make some dosh without having to pvp, (yes i'am a care bear) not being able to kill a t1 frig in my cnr with cncl's and faction ammo is sucky, hell i couldnt even crack the tank of a bc i was shooting up, (gotta love corpie testing). so yes please back some of the nerf off at least, there isnt 1 npc ship out there that shouldnt be killable (solo) on a lvl 4 mission with any faction.
Tyremis Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.11.23 06:12:00 - [430] Originally by: Brea Lafail Originally by: Tyremis after ccp taking our nanos from us im really enjoying this thread C'mon, weren't you dieing to be able to fit something other than speed mods? im having fun adapting but i do miss my nanos
soulkiller3 Minmatar Explosive Production Corp	Posted - 2008.11.23 10:21:00 - [431] ok if missiles are so underpowered why don`t you just switch to guns??
Opertone Caldari SIEGE.	Posted - 2008.11.23 10:38:00 - [432] Originally by: soulkiller3 ok if missiles are so underpowered why don`t you just switch to guns?? there are no gun hardpoints on caldari ships... we aren't profficient in other races unfortunatelly. We will need to train speed, armor tank, gunnery, drones, spaceship command and other skills to switch. Cost of switching are too high, can't bear in mind that our ships are worthless.
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.11.23 10:53:00 - [433] Originally by: Opertone Originally by: soulkiller3 ok if missiles are so underpowered why don`t you just switch to guns?? there are no gun hardpoints on caldari ships... Sarcasm or not, this argument seems to come up a lot so I think it's time for a repost: For your pleasure: Non-missile ships Harpy — Hybrids. Ferox — Hybrids + Launcher + 5x Drones. Rokh — Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Scorpion — Turrets + Launchers + 5x Drones. Chimera — More drones than your mom can handle. Vulture — Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Blackbird — Turrets + Launchers. Moa — Hybrids + Launchers + 3x Drones. Osprey — Turrets + Launchers + 4x Drones. Cormorant — Hybrids + Launcher. Falcon — Turrets + Launchers. Bantam — Turrets + 1x Drone. Merlin — Hybrids + Launchers. Eagle — Hybrids + Launchers. Badger — Turret. Bardger Mk II — Turret. Raptor — Hybrids + Launchers. Wyvern — More drones than your mom and her dog can handle. Missile + Drone ships Drake — Missiles + 5x Drones. Raven — Missiles + 5x Drones. Widow — Missiles + 5x Drones. Nighthawk — Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Caracal — Missiles (+ turrets) + 2x Drones. Phoenix — Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Griffin — Missiles (+ turret) + 1x Drone. Heron — Missiles (+ turret) + 1x Drone. Basilisk – Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Golem — Missiles + 5x Drones. Leviathan — Missiles + 5x Drones. Missile ships with turret slots Buzzard. Kitsune. Condor. Crow. Flycatcher. Manticore. Missile-only ships Hawk. Rook. Kestrel. Cerberus. Onyx. Crane. Of the 41 Caldari ships that can fit some kind of weapon, 23 are missile-oriented. Of those 23, 11 can field drones. Of the 12 that remain, 3 are not really combat ships and 6 can fit turrets for things the missiles can't catch. A total of 6 out of 41 ships (14%) have no option but to use missiles. Of those 6, two have better ways of ruining the enemy's day, and one isn't a combat ship. Out of the 41 ships, 20 can carry drones — 14 can field a full drone swarm. No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Valandria Koshun Caldari Atum Nocturnem	Posted - 2008.11.23 11:06:00 - [434] nice overview but cut it down on the ships capable for lvl4 missions, the ist lokks little bit different on topic: at the first days i really thought that the change was to big, but afterall i got to say its not a real problem, ive changed nothing at my cnr-setup, i just use some different imps and its goes well most of the time, if i got a mission with alot of small ships in use the drake to get them down und the raven for the bigs ships
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.11.23 11:24:00 - [435] Edited by: Kerfira on 23/11/2008 11:26:19 Originally by: Sanjuro Yojimbo ...not being able to kill a t1 frig in my cnr with cncl's and faction ammo is sucky... Newsflash for you: You're not supposed to hit frigates with battleship sized weapons! Deal with it! Originally by: Sanjuro Yojimbo ...hell i couldnt even crack the tank of a bc i was shooting up, (gotta love corpie testing). Train target painters! Originally by: Sanjuro Yojimbo ...there isnt 1 npc ship out there that shouldnt be killable (solo) on a lvl 4 mission with any faction. There isn't, as long as you got proper skills and know how to fit a battleship properly! Hell, even a battlecruiser can do most L4' missions if the pilot knows what he is doing... Flying a battleship is not just a matter of training the battleship skill..... Oh, you don't like change and challenge? Find another game then.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
xMILFx	Posted - 2008.11.23 11:43:00 - [436] Originally by: Demonic Sentiment basicly missiles werent great for pvp before.. now they are basicly useless lol I suspect CCP has a room full of people they pay a wage to called a think tank their job is to come up with ideas on how to improve the game. Some call such a think tank agressive progression. Me I call it tinkering just for the sake of it. CCP there is a saying I think you could to hart. "if its not broken, don't fix it" In my time in eve I have seen may nerfs and changes to the game that have been very badly thougt out sure the basic concepts and reasons behind them are sound but the application of them has resulted in some long term distruption to the games basic mecanics. A recent example. A player could repair any ship in the game such as when two players are fighting a 3rd player could repair the shields or armor of one or both players with out any reprocutions. CCP deemed this unfair, So the CCP think tank came up with this answer to the situation. They made changes to how and when a player could rerpair another players ship. A player reapirs one of the two combatants and then automaticaly becomes a valid target of the other compatant. The baisc concept is fine but in application the repairing player could be in a battle ship and use just 1 shield bot to make the repair and then become a valid part of the fight against the other combatant. This could be expolited and in its application bring utter confusion to your basic pvp situation, which is one of the fundemental parts of the eve game. CCP please if you are going to change the game think hard and long about how it will effect the game in the long term. With this recent nerf to missiels you effectivly made all caldari none solo pvp and then wasted counless years of skilling for PVE players. Weldone
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.23 11:48:00 - [437] Originally by: Sanjuro Yojimbo i agree that the nerf was too harsh, being fairly new to the game, (just over a year) and not having much combat training, missiles were a good way to go to make some dosh without having to pvp, (yes i'am a care bear) not being able to kill a t1 frig in my cnr with cncl's and faction ammo is sucky, hell i couldnt even crack the tank of a bc i was shooting up, (gotta love corpie testing). so yes please back some of the nerf off at least, there isnt 1 npc ship out there that shouldnt be killable (solo) on a lvl 4 mission with any faction. For the hundredth time: use drones. CNCMs suck against frigates. So do 425mm rails...
WA Dragon Caldari 108 Field Squadron RM RE	Posted - 2008.11.23 12:10:00 - [438] Edited by: WA Dragon on 23/11/2008 12:11:42 Edited by: WA Dragon on 23/11/2008 12:11:03 Originally by: Malcanis For the hundredth time: use drones. CNCMs suck against frigates. So do 425mm rails... So what your saying is a CNR would win with drones and 2 rail guns v 6 T1 Merlins. First of all the CNR would have to fit a warp scram to hold the merlin its attacking with its drones (not enough slots for that) second the merlins would have to be kind enough not to attack the drones because that would make the CNR defencless against the merlins third rail guns miss at close range long range and inbetween ranges rail guns miss, If one of the merlins has a turret disrupter on.... yadda, yadda, yadda. I am sure I need not go into all the details of how this nerf fouls up the basic pvp and pve aspects of the game for missile users, one thing being forgot here is the leanthy skilling times it took to become good with missiles so they could kill smaller ships all of that just got thrown away at the push of a key. To be or not to be......sorry can you repeat the question?
Karille Gallente Lordless	Posted - 2008.11.23 12:14:00 - [439] Originally by: WA Dragon Edited by: WA Dragon on 23/11/2008 12:11:42 Edited by: WA Dragon on 23/11/2008 12:11:03 Originally by: Malcanis For the hundredth time: use drones. CNCMs suck against frigates. So do 425mm rails... So what your saying is a CNR would win with drones and 2 rail guns v 6 T1 Merlins. First of all the CNR would have to fit a warp scram to hold the merlin its attacking with its drones (not enough slots for that) second the merlins would have to be kind enough not to attack the drones because that would make the CNR defencless against the merlins third rail guns miss at close range long range and inbetween ranges rail guns miss, If one of the merlins has a turret disrupter on.... yadda, yadda, yadda. I am sure I need not go into all the details of how this nerf fouls up the basic pvp and pve aspects of the game for missile users, one thing being forgot here is the leanthy skilling times it took to become good with missiles so they could kill smaller ships all of that just got thrown away at the push of a key. So what you're saying is that 1 player should beat 6 coordinated players? Or that a rail mega would have more of a chance?
WA Dragon Caldari 108 Field Squadron RM RE	Posted - 2008.11.23 12:27:00 - [440] Originally by: KarilleSo what you're saying is that 1 player should beat 6 coordinated players? Or that a rail mega would have more of a chance?[/quote yes given the fact that the player has spent a long time in the game and should have eart the right to be able to own smaller ships. It should be a fundimental way of life in eve that the older you get the better you become. What your saying is a bunch of 2 day old chars could easy own a 3 year vet. Where is the reward for being such a loyal long term player in this game. I am thinking of selling my chars and just running trial accounts with 6 mates using only merlins and activly hunting down CNR's and saving my self alot of real cash. I could exploit the buddy situation here as well hay thanks for the thought provoking (can of worms open) To be or not to be......sorry can you repeat the question?
Karille Gallente Lordless	Posted - 2008.11.23 12:39:00 - [441] Level 80s completely owning lower levels is NOT what this game is about. It is the opposite.
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.11.23 12:41:00 - [442] Edited by: Tippia on 23/11/2008 12:45:50 Originally by: Valandria Koshun nice overview but cut it down on the ships capable for lvl4 missions, the ist lokks little bit different Ok… Non-missile ships Ferox — Hybrids + Launcher + 5x Drones. Rokh — Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Scorpion — Turrets + Launchers + 5x Drones. Vulture — Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Eagle — Hybrids + Launchers. Missile + Drone ships Drake — Missiles + 5x Drones. Raven — Missiles + 5x Drones. Nighthawk — Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Golem — Missiles + 5x Drones. Missile-only ships Cerberus. Of the 10 Caldari ships that are L4 mission-capable, 5 are missile-oriented. Of those 5, 4 can field drones and 2 of those use cruiser-sized weapons so drones aren't even that necessary. The one missile-only that remain also uses cruiser weapons and can therefore also handle small ships with relative ease already. Out of the 10 ships, 8 can carry drones and all of those can field a full drone swarm. …and that's without considering some of the (admittedly sillier) setups that would use capships in open-space lowsec L4s or overtanked T1 combat cruiser or T2 support cruisers. No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.23 12:52:00 - [443] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 23/11/2008 12:45:50 Originally by: Valandria Koshun nice overview but cut it down on the ships capable for lvl4 missions, the ist lokks little bit different Okà Non-missile ships Ferox ù Hybrids + Launcher + 5x Drones. Rokh ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Scorpion ù Turrets + Launchers + 5x Drones. Vulture ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Eagle ù Hybrids + Launchers. Missile + Drone ships Drake ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Raven ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Nighthawk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Golem ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Missile-only ships Cerberus. Of the 10 Caldari ships that are L4 mission-capable, 5 are missile-oriented. Of those 5, 4 can field drones and 2 of those use cruiser-sized weapons so drones aren't even that necessary. The one missile-only that remain also uses cruiser weapons and can therefore also handle small ships with relative ease already. Out of the 10 ships, 8 can carry drones and all of those can field a full drone swarm. àand that's without considering some of the (admittedly sillier) setups that would use capships in open-space lowsec L4s or overtanked T1 combat cruiser or T2 support cruisers. And, speaking from personal knowledge, a QR Cerb works great for ratting. Yes, even the little frigates.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.11.23 12:52:00 - [444] My alt is running lv4's right now, in a CNR, having no issues whatsoever. No different fittings. No TP. But then again, I'm fighting ships at 100km+ and using cruise missiles, and her drone skills is great. Gotta admit I will train up the Dominix too, as complement (for missions with alot of t2 ships), but I already had the drone skills. And frankly, I had drone support at 4 and t2 drones before I even bothered with t2 missiles. Priorities. Some guys just want to lock themselves into a corner, while others want to be versatile. And I just dislike the idea of having to rely, even post-QR, on my missiles to keep me safe from scrambling frigs. Plus, cruise launchers are nice to have on those ships that just spawned 120km from me. Target painter? They died before they reached me anyway! I'd probably be ****ed if I was using t2 torps with mediocre droneskills right now, but then again, I hate to lock myself into a corner. Plus it's just a week or two to get decent t1 cruise launchers with good drone skills. Your damage will go down but you will gain versability. Plus, it's pretty silly to think that torps should hit frigsized ships. I'd love it if my Tachyon II's would pop frigates at any range and non-webbed as well. I'd have to chose engagement range, crystals, possible ewar (web etc) and still I end up using drones for small ships in the Paladin anyway.
Togg Bott Minmatar 801	Posted - 2008.11.23 13:45:00 - [445] OH and NERF Nanos.....wait
soulkiller3 Minmatar Explosive Production Corp	Posted - 2008.11.23 14:18:00 - [446] Am still not seeing a valid reason missiles are not balanced now, just people crying that they one type of missile cant kill everything. That is not how eve works and you can cry and cry on the forums as much as you like, and CCP will not take notice as no one is brining up a reason why its not balanced, you have other options for killing frigs, drones, heveys and hell even but 2 220`s or 2 blasters on your spare 2 high slots on a raven, or even put on a smart bomb.
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.23 14:33:00 - [447] Edited by: Hyveres on 23/11/2008 14:35:56 Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 23/11/2008 11:26:19 Originally by: Sanjuro Yojimbo ...not being able to kill a t1 frig in my cnr with cncl's and faction ammo is sucky... Newsflash for you: You're not supposed to hit frigates with battleship sized weapons! Deal with it! The same way railboats and beamships are not supposed to hit frigates at 80 km + ranges when the frigates are static right? Once turretships are incapable of hitting frigates for enough damage to outdps a single small shieldbooster or small armour repair module nomatter the range , or frigates velocity I will agree with you.
Karille Gallente Lordless	Posted - 2008.11.23 15:09:00 - [448] Originally by: Hyveres The same way railboats and beamships are not supposed to hit frigates at 80 km + ranges when the frigates are static right? Once turretships are incapable of hitting frigates for enough damage to outdps a single small shieldbooster or small armour repair module nomatter the range , or frigates velocity I will agree with you. So you would be okay with never being able to hit a moving frigate inside of 40km? Sounds like you need to train for rails.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.11.23 15:10:00 - [449] Edited by: Kerfira on 23/11/2008 15:12:05 Originally by: Hyveres The same way railboats and beamships are not supposed to hit frigates at 80 km + ranges when the frigates are static right? Once turretships are incapable of hitting frigates for enough damage to outdps a single small shieldbooster or small armour repair module nomatter the range , or frigates velocity I will agree with you. Turret ships can hit them when static and so can missile ships. Missile ships can hit them at speed when using MWD and turret ships can't. Turret ships can't hit them at all when at short range and at any speed, while missiles are unaffected. Who's best? Stop your crying. Both types have advantages and disadvantages. Your whining that you want the advantages of BOTH types is rather selfish, not to mention game-breakingly foolish... EDIT: Added point from above post... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.23 15:11:00 - [450] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Hyveres The same way railboats and beamships are not supposed to hit frigates at 80 km + ranges when the frigates are static right? Once turretships are incapable of hitting frigates for enough damage to outdps a single small shieldbooster or small armour repair module nomatter the range , or frigates velocity I will agree with you. Turret ships can hit them when static and so can missile ships, missile ships can hit them at speed when using MWD and turret ships can't. Who's best? Stop your crying. Both types have advantages and disadvantages. Your whining that you want the advantages of BOTH types is rather selfish, not to mention game-breakingly foolish...

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