Originally by: asdfasfasaxfsdgfhds

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The real problem lies in NPC Battleships that MWD towards you while bombarding your shield that you've partly sacrificed in order to "ADAPT" by fitting a target painter and a webber. Webbing drones are worthless as they only have a 10k range and move like battleships, plus if your gonna use lights against cruisers and frigates in missions or ratting you can only use 2 webber drones as the Caldari BS drone bay is fail.

I'm a 2005 player with over 9 million missle skill points and pretty much maxed out shield skills to, so I'm not a 4 month old player trying to fly a raven or CNR proficiantly in regards to skills.

Watching torps do double digit damage to battleships is just total nonsence!!!!

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Originally by: AYRI RAVINIKA

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Originally by: asdfasfasaxfsdgfhds

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The real problem lies in NPC Battleships that MWD towards you while bombarding your shield that you've partly sacrificed in order to "ADAPT" by fitting a target painter and a webber. Webbing drones are worthless as they only have a 10k range and move like battleships, plus if your gonna use lights against cruisers and frigates in missions or ratting you can only use 2 webber drones as the Caldari BS drone bay is fail.

I'm a 2005 player with over 9 million missle skill points and pretty much maxed out shield skills to, so I'm not a 4 month old player trying to fly a raven or CNR proficiantly in regards to skills.

Watching torps do double digit damage to battleships is just total nonsence!!!!

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There is no problem in missiling a npc battleship even without a target painter or web so you have no need to sacrifice tank. The problem is clearly lies between keyboard/mouse and your chair.

More-over if anyone is keeping count for every crybear that says they can't missile anything between frigate or battleship there is far more people taking the time to clarify there is no problem outside of their inability to accept their own failures.

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Originally by: Khamal Jolstien

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I have yet to see someone bring up an acceptable reason for the current missile behavior.

The facts remain that missile lost another one of its few advantages. It was already hardly a first choice, not that great in PVP. Now it's pathetic, requiring even more sacrifices to tank just to come close to it's old effectiveness.

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Originally by: Mr Friendly

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Originally by: Khamal Jolstien

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I have yet to see someone bring up an acceptable reason for the current missile behavior.

The facts remain that missile lost another one of its few advantages. It was already hardly a first choice, not that great in PVP. Now it's pathetic, requiring even more sacrifices to tank just to come close to it's old effectiveness.

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As you're obviously too dim to change your setup to bring your damage inline with what's easily achievable, can I have your stuff? You are quitting, right?

Oh wait... you're just mindlessly whining. Never mind then.

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Originally by: Khamal Jolstien

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I have yet to see someone bring up an acceptable reason for the current missile behavior.

The facts remain that missile lost another one of its few advantages. It was already hardly a first choice, not that great in PVP. Now it's pathetic, requiring even more sacrifices to tank just to come close to it's old effectiveness.

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Originally by: Khamal Jolstien

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Try harder with the trolling.

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Originally by: Amoxin

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My vent is talking to me in a devil voice...

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Originally by: FlorisIII

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Originally by: Khamal Jolstien

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I have yet to see someone bring up an acceptable reason for the current missile behavior.

The facts remain that missile lost another one of its few advantages. It was already hardly a first choice, not that great in PVP. Now it's pathetic, requiring even more sacrifices to tank just to come close to it's old effectiveness.

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I finished 2 lvl 4's in a Cerberus today, w/o target painter or web. Used T2 hvy missiles, precision vs small targets and high damage vs BS. I got the feeling it was as easy/hard as before the patch. The high damage missiles really failed against interceptors, but the precision missiles did the job quickly enough, and w/o missing

I did this just to give it a try, because i usually use two characters for a mission, the Cerb just to destroy the frigs and a Maelstrom or Dominix to destroy the rest (depending on mission).

Really, the stacking option makes it even less of an effort to do missions. I'm tempted to try the following midslot layout:

Gist small sb
SBA
2x invul T2
Target painter

Lows
1x pdu
3x Ballistic Control T2

tank should hold if mainly kin/th damage is done and the range is >40km. Otherwise the accompaniing BS will do the tanking

Pvp it's still an niche ship. Hopefully ppl will underestimate the ship. Alone, it's a waste of isk, but in small gangs it can be a great contribution due to its ability to switch damage types and precision missile to hi dmg mssl.

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Originally by: Brea Lafail

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ITT people who don't understand the missile changes.

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Originally by: Cambarus

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I think I'm going to go and post this in al;l the missile whine threads, because TBFH it needs to be said:

Well let's look at the nerfs and some buffs of the last year or so, and see how caldari compares to other races:

Tier II BCs introduced, caldari and gallente both get a BC capable of fielding >BS sized tanks. Nice Buff IMO (though they later get nerfed a bit, they still field awesome tanks)

Nos nerf. Affects everyone but mostly the gallente with their nos Domis.

Drone bandwidth. Gallente get a huge nerf that hits 2 of their best ships (Eos and Myrmi) Required? Of course, but the nerf was over the top. The ishkur also took a beating with this one.

Drone shield recharge nerf. Gallente get hit really hard with this one as recalling/relaunching drones is no longer very viable.

First nano nerf. Nanophoons and nanodomis are no more. Gallente and minmatar get nerfed.

I know at some point the calldari recons got boosted, though I don't remember exactly how Razz If someone can point out the change to me that'd be appreciated.

Resistance nerf. Armor lost some EM, shields lost some explosive, everyone gets nerfed.

Torp Buff. All of a sudden the raven becomes a very viable option in pvp. A raven + a tackler is a dangerous combination when the raven can easily hit >1k DPS

Sensor damps reduced massively in effectiveness (by about 50%) HUGE gallente recon nerf.

Second nano nerf. Many matari (as well as some gallente + amarr) ships become far less useful in pvp.

Those who were paying attention earlier may have noticed that drone boats got nerfed pretty hard a while back. But blaster ships are still viable in pvp!

Oh wait...

Web nerf. Blaster boats do not have the optimal to work without a good web. The web reduction results in a required tracking several times greater then before, and much more then blasters have.

The missile nerf. The raven is no longer the powerhouse of mission running.

I'm pretty sure that caldari have had it easy for quite some time now, it amazes me how quickly people complain the instant CCP changes their PVE boats. You'll get used to it, it's not like you're competing against other people in the mission...

And as far as PvP goes, Torp raven is still awesome, all ECM ships are as well, and I will be soon flying a blasteRokh as it'll be one of the few blaster boats with the range to track targets.

Everyone gets nerfed, the ships are far from useless. There will still be more caldari pilots and caldari raven mission runners then any other race, and the price on CNRs is a hundred freaking mil higher then the navythron...

This is the first nerf felt by mission runners in years, which is why we're seeing so much complaining, eventually they will realize that the sky is not, in fact, falling and we will all resume our normal eve lives.

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Originally by: CHAOS100

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Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar

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Originally by: Korovyov

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TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters.

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So I can have wrecking shots with Cruise missiles and do over 1000 DPS at close range?

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Sure, its called torps, remember that other caldari weapon?
can I trade my ~2% wrecking chance to have guns hit constantly?

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Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra

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Edited by: Mithrantir Ob''lontra on 14/11/2008 06:47:55

Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar

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The point is that you have to take into consideration all the various strengths and weaknesses of weapons systems. Missiles generally are not used in PVP, from what I understand. Most people seem to consider turrets to be more effective. As a trade-off, they were always better in PVE. The posters saying that it is fair to nerf missiles in PVE to bring them inline to turrets are ignoring the unaddressed weaknesses of missiles in PVP. The patch appears to have left missiles inferior in both PVP and PVE. So then, why would you fly a missile ship? I don't think the developers intended a whole class of weapons/ships to be that ineffective. I understand what they were trying to accomplish with the re-balance, but I think they went too far and it needs to be re-adjusted. As it stands now, my Maelstrom is more effective doing damage than my Raven in missions, and Artillery has never been considered to be particularly effective at PVE. Missiles need some kind of adjustment for balance. Either make them as effective at PVP as turrets, or make them more effective at PVE as a tradeoff.

Oh, and since you brought up our favorite mmo besides EVE, I should inform you that my Maelstrom is entirely crewed by Night Elf Rogues.

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What people were saying was and still is that Cladari ships are not that good for solo pvp. And the reason for that was not the missiles but the fact that shield tank requires mid slots, as the warp jammers and webbers and other modules do.

They were not preferred in large gangs due to the flight time of the missiles, but guess what no drone ships are welcomed either in large fleets (unless it's with sentries) due to the flight time the drones need to reach the target.

Don't believe whatever people are saying in the forums, it's not always true.
Lately the impression that many people writing constantly in forums rarely log in the game and actually play it, is growing.

As for PVE I still can't understand why it's impossible for the Caldari ship users to alternate their setups, and gain at least a portion of their former glory.

I do missions in a Dominix (drones got hit also right?) and managed to do one mission after patch. The outcome was that due to the patch i managed to finish the mission faster than i used too ( i was using target painter even before the patch). I am pretty sure that Raven pilots can modify their setups a little in order to take advantage of the changes.

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Originally by: CCP Oveur

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Just donæt forget the reach-around.

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Originally by: Haradgrim

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Long Range:

Beam Laz0rs > Rails > Arties > Cruise/HML/SML

Short Range:

Pulse Laz0rs > ACs > Blasters > Torps/HAMs/Rockets

C/D?

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Originally by: Ahmai Skarilukn

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As someone who has never flown a raven, I just want to know what the tank is with what one would consider "average" skills to efficiently fly one of these. Then, I would like to know what the loss in tank would be if a midslot was changed to a target painter.

Thank you people who answer constructively.

/me ignores people who flame.

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Originally by: BhallSpawn

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missles before patch in pvp - sucks

missles after patch in pvp - sucks donkey balls

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Originally by: Djens

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Yeah and I can kill interceptors in my cerb now, something that would have been plain impossible pre patch.

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Brea Lafail

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ITT people who don't understand the missile changes.

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I bet since you understand them very much you never fly misile boats in PvP, do you.. noone does anymore for that matter, if for the lone torp ravens out there b/c the ppl don't have other race BS skills.

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Originally by: Djens

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Yeah and I can kill interceptors in my cerb now, something that would have been plain impossible pre patch.

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Originally by: Macky Alcaz

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so, before i did 250 stable damage / hit on my rats shield/armor and about 400 on hull...

now i do 138 damage (all the time) / hit on my rats shield/armor and about 200 on hull...

I use 'arbalest' cruise missile launchers and shoot angel rats.

Before i could take down a 1,2mill rat really easy and faction rats with some reloading but now it feels like im engaging faction spawns when im actually firing at the 500k rats..

Thanks for ****ing up my daily source of income out in 0.0

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

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Originally by: Haradgrim

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Long Range:

Beam Laz0rs > Rails > Arties > Cruise/HML/SML

Short Range:

Pulse Laz0rs > ACs > Blasters > Torps/HAMs/Rockets

C/D?

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

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