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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Ice Moon	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:05:00 - [1] If you're in dire trouble in L4 missions after the patch, then you will need to train up some skills and / or refit your ship. That's a reality. But, this may not be as much of a 'mare as you think: I thought I'd pen some (probably obvious or incorrect) comments, just in case newer players might be a bit lost. 1. You shouldn't need all 6 midslots for a tank on a CNR. Some missions should be playable with a 4-slot tank, and I can't think of a mission I couldn't complete with a 5-slot tank. I haven't tried any with a 3-slot tank as I wouldn't have had anything to do with the remaining mid. If you need a 6-slot tank, you need to do something about that. This may involve skills training. Check that: - you can use tech II shield gear (hardeners, boosters; boost amplifier not so important) - you can use tech II PDUs - you have basic shield skills (Shield Operation V, Shield Management IV, Shield Compensation IV, Tactical Shield Manipulation IV, - you have basic capacitor skills (Energy Management IV, Energy Systems Operation V) 2. Make sure you understand the recharge characteristics of your shield and capacitor. Last time I checked, your shield recharged most efficiently when down to 25%, and cap charged most efficiently when down to 35-40%. These may have changed though - so check the facts! Understand your ship's optimal performance and manage your ship so you're operating in this performance zone. 3. Don't automatically try and perma-run the tank. If you have high cap, turn on the booster even if your shields are hardly scratched. If your cap is low, manage it. Etc. 4. You must have drone skills to run missions without exposing yourself to serious risk of nerfbat. Make sure you have: - Basic drone skills (Combat Drone Operation IV, Drones V, Drone Interfacing III+, Drone Navigation IV, Drone Sharpshooting IV etc.) - Tech II drone skills (xxx Drone Specialisation) at 3 or 4 for at least 1 drone type 5. Take 1 flight light drones, 1 flight medium (e.g. Hammerhead IIs). Use lights for frigates and mediums for cruisers. Focus drones on single targets. Don't have them fly around between targets that are miles apart. Hotkey your "drone attack" and "retrieve drone" commands. Use them to add more damage to ships you're blasting if there's nothing else for them to do. 6. Train a target painter and use it as soon as you can accommodate it in your tank. Get the PWNAGE painter. Check you have: - Target Painting IV, Signature Focussing IV (or as high as possible), Long Distance Jamming IV+, Frequency Modulation IV+ 7. Make sure your missile skills are balanced. Train Guided Missile Precision IV, Target Navigation Prediction V 8. On the easier L4 missions, try stuff out. Do your medium drones do more damage when you're target painting a ship? Don't know? Try it and see! (Note: I'm not saying they do, I'm not saying they don't. An exercise for the student.) Can I run that mission with 4 BCUs, or 5? Try it out! 9. Train skills up in one of two ways: - balanced, so that you're optimising when you hit diminishing returns, by training up a range skills to L3 before any of them go to L4 etc. - focussed, because hitting a certain skill level will unlock a step change in capability (e.g. tech 2 drones) 10. Use the in-game notepad to capture the optimal load-out for each mission; change your fit for every mission including hardener types, number of PDUs vs BCUs, missiles (obviously) etc. I have run missions with 5 BCUs before because I had so much tank I didn't know what to do with it - this might make a minute different to damage, but minute > zero 11. Remember: the better your tank (through support skills), the greater the likelihood you can fit one or more painters or webbers which will increase damage or mitigate damage reduction. Do not neglect your support skills 12. Overtanking is often a waste of damage. Find a fit with a comfortable safety margin for a specific mission, and throw everything else to damage Fly Safe.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:09:00 - [2] Excellent post, and spot on. If every Raven mission runner read that and understood it, the amount of whining here would vanish. And pigs would fly.
framolia The Fated	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:16:00 - [3] I endorse this post! I have noticed very little difference since the patch in my bog standard Raven. Only difference being that I have 50 mil sp where most mission runners have less than half of that! The days of going from a L1 to L4 in a couple of months has ended. Get your skills up and you will get through the missions easily enough. "My opinions are my own and not of my corp or alliance!"

CCP Navigator C C P	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:17:00 - [4] Ice moon, That is a fantastic post! Thank you for such an excellent contribution Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, [gold]EVE Online

Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:23:00 - [5] Disgraceful! Coming here with logic and intelligence and stuff. Totally unsuitable for these forums! PS - Haven't shot a cruise since the patch but I tick all those boxes, so I'm all glowy inside! -------------------- What? Me Worry? --------------------
X3R0N Caldari Boys With Toys	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:24:00 - [6] I endorse this product and or statement And seeing as Navigator has already been here, couldn't we get it stickied somewhere ? Just because of the pure win this thread really is
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:25:00 - [7] Ice- you're totally ruining the mission runner carebear stereotype that they've been working so hard to develop! Stop at once! /sarcasm Good job. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Originally by: Horza Otho [06:36:47] Horza Otho > its all good, everytime i fit a mega i play some mariah carey in the backround
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:26:00 - [8] OP is spot on with an complete, well written and accurate post. I have reported this disgusting outrage and expect - DEMAND - Ice moon be banned immediately if not sooner.
Squably Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:26:00 - [9] Exactly what i've been doing for some time now except the painter stuff never really used it. It's a good post and reality for most ships to act in this way. Signature removed. Please do not imply profanity in your signature. Navigator
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:28:00 - [10] I support this post and/or service, especially number 12. Enough tank to survive, enough gank to do it as fast as possible _____________________ My opinions plus a tablespoon of water may be substituted for your own.

Morrow Borric Morrow Prime Industries Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:29:00 - [11] Mission running 101, its amazing how many people want to not think while playing this game. Props to the OP for taking the time to help educate the player base.
Slistine Death Sons of Angelus Mortis	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:31:00 - [12] OP... thank you for your time. However, I PVP occasionally in a cruise Raven, I've enjoyed a SB cruise manticore and various other uses of missile systems IN PVP.A BS can now speed tank me with a single AB fitted as soon as they get over 170m/s. And this is directed directly CCP Navigator... what is your solution to that one? HUH? More stupid nerfs making a whole class of weapon systems completely worthless along with player's millions of sps and months of training down the tube. CCP Navigator when was the last time you actually played EVE? And when was the last time anyone from CCP responded to a post asking a real question? Read my other recent posts if you want to get an idea of what a portion of EVE thinks of the direction you guys are taking this year.
Sidus Isaacs	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:33:00 - [13] I agree on mpst of your points. But I perfer a DC II on my Caldari misison ships for the added shield % it gives, and the safty if tank should fail :P. Still, having to fit a TP in not needed. I do missions fine with with my old CNR as it is :).
Ralle3583	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Slistine Death OP... thank you for your time. However, I PVP occasionally in a cruise Raven, I've enjoyed a SB cruise manticore and various other uses of missile systems IN PVP.A BS can now speed tank me with a single AB fitted as soon as they get over 170m/s. And this is directed directly CCP Navigator... what is your solution to that one? HUH? More stupid nerfs making a whole class of weapon systems completely worthless along with player's millions of sps and months of training down the tube. CCP Navigator when was the last time you actually played EVE? And when was the last time anyone from CCP responded to a post asking a real question? Read my other recent posts if you want to get an idea of what a portion of EVE thinks of the direction you guys are taking this year. read again the topic: [non-flame] Practical advice for Raven PvE pilots ....
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:36:00 - [15] Originally by: Slistine Death OP... thank you for your time. However, I PVP occasionally in a cruise Raven, I've enjoyed a SB cruise manticore and various other uses of missile systems IN PVP.A BS can now speed tank me with a single AB fitted as soon as they get over 170m/s. And this is directed directly CCP Navigator... what is your solution to that one? HUH? More stupid nerfs making a whole class of weapon systems completely worthless along with player's millions of sps and months of training down the tube. CCP Navigator when was the last time you actually played EVE? And when was the last time anyone from CCP responded to a post asking a real question? Read my other recent posts if you want to get an idea of what a portion of EVE thinks of the direction you guys are taking this year. Solution
SCHLAMPEvomDIENST	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Ice Moon If you're in dire trouble in L4 missions after the patch, then you will need to train up some skills and / or refit your ship. That's a reality. But, this may not be as much of a 'mare as you think: I thought I'd pen some (probably obvious or incorrect) comments, just in case newer players might be a bit lost... Give me an advice what i shall do if i have regular shutdowns and crahses, because CCP isnt able to fix the realtek or the ATI problem? I need a perma fitting otherwise i lose my ship...

CCP Navigator C C P	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Slistine Death OP... thank you for your time. However, I PVP occasionally in a cruise Raven, I've enjoyed a SB cruise manticore and various other uses of missile systems IN PVP.A BS can now speed tank me with a single AB fitted as soon as they get over 170m/s. And this is directed directly CCP Navigator... what is your solution to that one? HUH? More stupid nerfs making a whole class of weapon systems completely worthless along with player's millions of sps and months of training down the tube. CCP Navigator when was the last time you actually played EVE? And when was the last time anyone from CCP responded to a post asking a real question? Read my other recent posts if you want to get an idea of what a portion of EVE thinks of the direction you guys are taking this year. My reply to the OP is simply in terms of a helpful and useful post to the community at large. Any player who takes the time to write a helpful post which benefits others deserves a little praise. I am not a Game Designer so I cannot comment on ship and module changes or balance issues. I would suggest that if you see something that is not working as intended then you should post a thread in Ships and Modules or Features and Ideas and present a valid and intelligent argument. In the case of the OP, he has provided a list of helpful suggestions to aid other players pilot a ship better and he is to be applauded for doing so. As for the last time I played EVE? That would be last night after work. The time before that was the previous night. I pretty much play every day and have a highly specialised Caldari missile character (who also flies Minmatar ships) along with an Amarr specialist and Gallente specialist. I really enjoy trying out all aspects of the game but I still will not comment on Game Design changes. I like to investigate problems and see if I can change my set up or tweak my tank vs gank. Hope that answers your question Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, [gold]EVE Online

jj74 Fatalix Aftermath	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:42:00 - [18] OP's a pretty cool poster imo
Slistine Death Sons of Angelus Mortis	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:44:00 - [19] Originally by: Malcanis DPS and range on the precision missiles is so pathetic that again... cruises are now worthless for pvp. Same problem still exists mate.
Zachary Hayden	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:45:00 - [20] Fantastic post! I fly an CNR and while things did get a bit tougher, things are not as bad as these forum post make them out to be. I hope people read and take these tips to heart.

AccesiViale	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:46:00 - [21] This is all really sound advice and all but some of the people complaining are doing so knowing full well any of that already listed. We're quite familiar with the game. If missions are getting done to fast...change the mission, not the ship. Making good missions would be content, instead we just the dial turned down on what we've trained for. Its like how bush attempts to solve problems with stim packages... Everyones broke...give them more money. How about working on why it is everyones broke (ie the missions being finished "too fast" in a raven or cnr). Its an easy button because the missions are trash, bottom line.
Haakelen Gallente Fire Mandrill	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:47:00 - [22] Originally by: Zachary Hayden I fly an CNR and while things did get a bit tougher, things are not as bad as these forum post make them out to be. I saw all wailing here and was all excited to login and try out my CNR, to see how horrible it now was. And alas, it still works like it did before. How disappointing!
MILK Monk 2nd Blood Raven Assault Squad	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:52:00 - [23] applause
Ian Luxor Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:58:00 - [24] Excellent.. Should be sticky for all the whiners.
Rutger Centemus Gallente The 8th Order	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:59:00 - [25] Good post. Always surprising to see people forget about the basics.
Triksterism Gallente Frozen Corpse Inspection Services United Federation of Capsuleers	Posted - 2008.11.14 14:00:00 - [26] Fit rocket launchers.
Shoukei Caldari Boobs Ahoy	Posted - 2008.11.14 14:03:00 - [27] sticky!~
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.14 14:05:00 - [28] or then just train some other race = win
Tom Perrish Mystic Lion Hearts Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.11.14 14:06:00 - [29] yeah sticky for few days and hopefully the forum will cool down a bit.. (yeah i know im an optimist)
Dyvim Slorm Relentless Storm Cartel	Posted - 2008.11.14 14:11:00 - [30] At last, a sensible thread and yes, it does need a sticky. Excellent post Ice Moon.

Sanzorz Amarr Mark Of Chaos Liberty.	Posted - 2008.11.14 14:11:00 - [31] Training for a Target Painter even though you're using Cruise missile still make a nice welcome. First off you deal alot more damage on smaller targets, if you have silly missile skills. The second thing is that medium drones hit ALOT more on frigate or interceptor like rats in missions. I can't say how it looks now, but it just makes the Painter alot more usable then. Whole reason I have painter spec skill was back then on the old Torps, but I noticed it was still a nice touch when using Cruise.
Dimmu Darko Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.11.14 14:18:00 - [32] Well posted. A few more of these posts and we would have less people complaining on the forums.
Yuleth Gix	Posted - 2008.11.14 14:20:00 - [33] Originally by: CCP Navigator My reply to the OP is simply in terms of a helpful and useful post to the community at large. Any player who takes the time to write a helpful post which benefits others deserves a little praise. I am not a Game Designer so I cannot comment on ship and module changes or balance issues. I would suggest that if you see something that is not working as intended then you should post a thread in Ships and Modules or Features and Ideas and present a valid and intelligent argument. In the case of the OP, he has provided a list of helpful suggestions to aid other players pilot a ship better and he is to be applauded for doing so. As for the last time I played EVE? That would be last night after work. The time before that was the previous night. I pretty much play every day and have a highly specialised Caldari missile character (who also flies Minmatar ships) along with an Amarr specialist and Gallente specialist. I really enjoy trying out all aspects of the game but I still will not comment on Game Design changes. I like to investigate problems and see if I can change my set up or tweak my tank vs gank. Hope that answers your question Damm, Slistine Death you just got served!
white kight SwEaTy ArMpIT RaIDeRs	Posted - 2008.11.14 14:37:00 - [34] Originally by: CCP Navigator Originally by: Slistine Death OP... thank you for your time. However, I PVP occasionally in a cruise Raven, I've enjoyed a SB cruise manticore and various other uses of missile systems IN PVP.A BS can now speed tank me with a single AB fitted as soon as they get over 170m/s. And this is directed directly CCP Navigator... what is your solution to that one? HUH? More stupid nerfs making a whole class of weapon systems completely worthless along with player's millions of sps and months of training down the tube. CCP Navigator when was the last time you actually played EVE? And when was the last time anyone from CCP responded to a post asking a real question? Read my other recent posts if you want to get an idea of what a portion of EVE thinks of the direction you guys are taking this year. My reply to the OP is simply in terms of a helpful and useful post to the community at large. Any player who takes the time to write a helpful post which benefits others deserves a little praise. I am not a Game Designer so I cannot comment on ship and module changes or balance issues. I would suggest that if you see something that is not working as intended then you should post a thread in Ships and Modules or Features and Ideas and present a valid and intelligent argument. In the case of the OP, he has provided a list of helpful suggestions to aid other players pilot a ship better and he is to be applauded for doing so. As for the last time I played EVE? That would be last night after work. The time before that was the previous night. I pretty much play every day and have a highly specialised Caldari missile character (who also flies Minmatar ships) along with an Amarr specialist and Gallente specialist. I really enjoy trying out all aspects of the game but I still will not comment on Game Design changes. I like to investigate problems and see if I can change my set up or tweak my tank vs gank. Hope that answers your question Lol Slistine Death you just got *** slapped by Navigator.........Navigator you are a legend!!! Grats on the new patch mate. I like it, and i am a caldari pilot (shock horror!!!) Originally by:** CCP Navigator Thread Locked. Please note that the General Discussion area is not.... Oh who am I kidding - Continue
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2008.11.14 14:38:00 - [35] Originally by: Ice Moon ..Lots of sage advice The caring is strong in this bear. Should be added that more damage is often better than more tank (unless in laggy systems). A dead rat does no damage after all and excessive damage increases cash/hour
Liberator 1 Gallente Remnants of the Flame	Posted - 2008.11.14 14:45:00 - [36] Thats the best thing I've ever seen in GD. POSTORZ ! ------------------------------------------- ôIf you are in a spaceship that is traveling at the speed of light, and you turn on the headlights, does anything happen?ö -------------------------
Slistine Death Sons of Angelus Mortis	Posted - 2008.11.14 14:48:00 - [37] The question still hasn't been answered on the unbalancing in pvp when using missiles. The problem still remains and the question has been avoided and not answered. Op did do a nice job of offering solutions to the PVE missile carebear, however PVP cruise boat setups are broken and PVE is not PVP. And I've been getting 'served' by CCP every since the boot.ini issue.
Una D Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace	Posted - 2008.11.14 14:51:00 - [38] Originally by: Sanzorz Training for a Target Painter even though you're using Cruise missile still make a nice welcome. First off you deal alot more damage on smaller targets, if you have silly missile skills. The second thing is that medium drones hit ALOT more on frigate or interceptor like rats in missions. I can't say how it looks now, but it just makes the Painter alot more usable then. Whole reason I have painter spec skill was back then on the old Torps, but I noticed it was still a nice touch when using Cruise. It's not necessary to paint drone targets. Rather paint the stuff you are hiting with cruise missiles. Light drones will rip apart even t2 frigs in missions and mediums eat cruisers and BC just as well as before. Puting on 2 TPs would probably be very nasty for normaly expensive tanks.

CCP Navigator C C P	Posted - 2008.11.14 14:54:00 - [39] Just a clarification: My reply to Slistine Death was not intended to be a slap down of any kind. Slistine asked some questions and I replied in an honest fashion. Should any player find that a ship appears to be unbalanced they should always be free to post a thread in the appropriate section. The purpose of the thread will be to gain feedback from the community to improve that ships capabilities via fitting or skills and to bring the matter to the attention of the designers.

Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2008.11.14 14:57:00 - [40] Edited by: Irida Mershkov on 14/11/2008 15:03:50 Originally by: CCP Navigator Just a clarification: My reply to Slistine Death was not intended to be a slap down of any kind. Yeah but that's what it turned out to be. Go Go Navigator! Edit: Great post too OP.

white kight SwEaTy ArMpIT RaIDeRs	Posted - 2008.11.14 15:00:00 - [41] Originally by: CCP Navigator Just a clarification: My reply to Slistine Death was not intended to be a slap down of any kind. Slistine asked some questions and I replied in an honest fashion. Should any player find that a ship appears to be unbalanced they should always be free to post a thread in the appropriate section. The purpose of the thread will be to gain feedback from the community to improve that ships capabilities via fitting or skills and to bring the matter to the attention of the designers. Lol we know Navigator, we just thought it was funny
Squably Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.11.14 15:02:00 - [42] Originally by: Slistine Death The question still hasn't been answered on the unbalancing in pvp when using missiles. The problem still remains and the question has been avoided and not answered. Op did do a nice job of offering solutions to the PVE missile carebear, however PVP cruise boat setups are broken and PVE is not PVP. And I've been getting 'served' by CCP every since the boot.ini issue. You still not realizing that this topic is about PVE not PVP? Reading troubles? And the topic is brilliant for PVE explains PVE pilots what to do with their PVE Ravens. So stick to the topic, theres just a 150 other raven whine threads you can try to hijack mkay.
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.11.14 15:26:00 - [43] Can we have this stickied?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.11.14 15:38:00 - [44] Originally by: Slistine Death The question still hasn't been answered on the unbalancing PVP cruise boat setups are broken and PVE is not PVP. We know very well that pve isn't pvp. However, this is a pve thread (and a damn good one). Please don't spam it with issues that are already being discussed in N other threads. Start another thread about pvp issues -- if you can do as good a job there as the OP did here (as in: list actual, specific findings and issues), then I'm sure people & the devs will be happy to comment. But not here, please.
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Noob Much Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.14 16:08:00 - [45] Originally by: Ice Moon 10. Use the in-game notepad to capture the optimal load-out for each mission DON'T. Use Windows Notepad or whatever. You'll thank me when your notes do NOT vanish into nothingness.
MILK Monk 2nd Blood Raven Assault Squad	Posted - 2008.11.14 16:24:00 - [46] Originally by: CCP Navigator Just a clarification: My reply to Slistine Death was not intended to be a slap down of any kind. Slistine asked some questions and I replied in an honest fashion. yeah of course you are neutral at your position ... cough ...good slap anyway __________________________________ I do it myyyy wayyyy... Milky Way.
Kormorant Gallente Franklin Federation	Posted - 2008.11.14 16:30:00 - [47] Top marks for op. It is scary when someone has to make a common sense post to calm the wild herd. I wonder how many will actually engage a thought process before crying more?
Yuleth Gix	Posted - 2008.11.14 16:45:00 - [48] Let the serving be sticked!
Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.14 17:52:00 - [49] I nominate this thread for a sticky. It's full of good advice, and win from a Dev ***slap ----- Originally by:** Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it
Juicy Fruits Empyrean Age	Posted - 2008.11.14 19:16:00 - [50] indeed an excellent post for people trying to make theyre banana guns back into missile launchers. Originally by: DHB WildCat The raven is a useless POS now. /me cries a tear. WildCat If BE are telling you its broken, its broken!

Pedro Snachez Revolution Holdings	Posted - 2008.11.14 20:35:00 - [51] Truly excellent advice! Back to the top of the page where this post deserves to be hint hint
Essack Leadae Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.14 20:45:00 - [52] Originally by: CCP Navigator In the case of the OP, he has provided a list of helpful suggestions to aid other players pilot a ship better and he is to be applauded for doing so. ... Welp, now it is helpful to say at one player to ½ skill few more months + to be able to play...
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.11.14 20:58:00 - [53] Originally by: Essack Leadae Originally by: CCP Navigator In the case of the OP, he has provided a list of helpful suggestions to aid other players pilot a ship better and he is to be applauded for doing so. ... Welp, now it is helpful to say at one player to ½ skill few more months + to be able to play... Gasp! Imagine that. Someone in an rpgmmo has to get high skills to participate in the high end content with the high end rewards. The Horror! On topic: Awesome post op! Nominate for a Sticky!
Essack Leadae Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.14 21:19:00 - [54] Edited by: Essack Leadae on 14/11/2008 21:23:40 Edited by: Essack Leadae on 14/11/2008 21:23:19 Originally by: Zeba Personal rewrite : I am a few dumb In other mmorpgs, you don't have to work so long to have fun in the game. Personaly, after many months of "gaming" in EvE where I was unable to do what I want, when I want, easily and efficiently, so unable to have fun and frustrated with some months where I just leave EvE, yes I can say that it is really helpful to say to someone to "skill more" The goal of a game is not waiting. The goal is to have fun. Log in the game to just change a fu.cki.ng skill is not fun. As I am not a specialized player (can't be one, I always want to see everything in a game), I needed to wait 15 months before I realize that I can begin to truly enjoy EvE in all his aspect, and now most of this time is partially destroyed. I need 3 months to compensate this nerf, well... trying to compensate.
Zachary Hayden	Posted - 2008.11.14 21:23:00 - [55] Edited by: Zachary Hayden on 14/11/2008 21:24:23 Originally by: CCP Navigator Just a clarification: My reply to Slistine Death was not intended to be a slap down of any kind. Slistine asked some questions and I replied in an honest fashion. Should any player find that a ship appears to be unbalanced they should always be free to post a thread in the appropriate section. The purpose of the thread will be to gain feedback from the community to improve that ships capabilities via fitting or skills and to bring the matter to the attention of the designers. That was a very magnanimous response. I know you guys at CCP have a very tough job - making the game as balanced as possible. This will inevitably make some people mad. This is not an attack on Slistine. He actually has point in his concern about missles in PVP. I am a Caldari and run a CNR for PVE, but have cross trained to Minmatar for PVP. The best we can do is just what CCP Navigator said. Add our concerns and solutions to the appropriate thread. I love this game and I know Slistine and many others feel the same attachment to it. I guess we all want the end product to be as good as it can be (and be able to have our race kick butt in PVP)
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.11.14 21:24:00 - [56] Originally by: Essack Leadae Originally by: Zeba Personal rewrite : I am a few dumb In other mmorpgs, you don't have to work so long to have fun in the game. Personaly, after many months of "gaming" in EvE where I was unable to do what I want, when I want, easily and efficiently, so unable to have fun and frustrated with some months where I just leave EvE, yes I can say that it is really helpful to say to someone to "skill more" The goal of a game is not waiting. The goal is to have fun. Log in the game to just change a fu.cki.ng skill is not fun. As I am not a specialized player, I needed to wait 15 months before I realize that I begin to truly enjoy EvE, and now all this time is partially destroyed. I need 3 months to compensate this nerf, well... trying to compensate. Time != Fun So you are saying that just because all the other mmo's have a short and simple path to the high end pve content and rewards that Eve should also have the same? Eve != other mmos. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.11.14 21:31:00 - [57] Navigator, delete all responses and lock and sticky this PLEASE! -- Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
Zachary Hayden	Posted - 2008.11.14 21:31:00 - [58] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Essack Leadae Originally by: Zeba Personal rewrite : I am a few dumb In other mmorpgs, you don't have to work so long to have fun in the game. Personaly, after many months of "gaming" in EvE where I was unable to do what I want, when I want, easily and efficiently, so unable to have fun and frustrated with some months where I just leave EvE, yes I can say that it is really helpful to say to someone to "skill more" The goal of a game is not waiting. The goal is to have fun. Log in the game to just change a fu.cki.ng skill is not fun. As I am not a specialized player, I needed to wait 15 months before I realize that I begin to truly enjoy EvE, and now all this time is partially destroyed. I need 3 months to compensate this nerf, well... trying to compensate. Time != Fun Almost all of us recognize that this game is very slow and our characters will not make it to end game content as quickly as possible (what is the definition of end game content in EVE?). However, we gladly accept this trade off becuase this game allows our characters to do so many different things. I love that i started as a Caldari, but was able to move into guns and Minmatar ships. In any other game, when you roll a priest, you are a priest for life. You want to do things a Warrior does? Tough. You have to start anew with a new character. So yeah, it does suck to skill Battleship V or any other long skill. But I still keep coming back for more. No other game has held my attention for so long. Good job CCP!
Essack Leadae Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.14 21:49:00 - [59] Edited by: Essack Leadae on 14/11/2008 21:53:08 Quote: So you are saying that just because all the other mmo's have a short and simple path to the high end pve content and rewards that Eve should also have the same? Eve != other mmos No, I just did a remark about the classical "Skill more" because when I read that, it is like a frustrating provocation, and when few players appreciate that, it is worse. It is too easy to tell at everyone to reduce their fun for a long training time because of a nerf. Same if I have to admit that the OP tried to help. EvE don't have to be like WoW or other stupid games, but EvE don't have to be the extreme inverted way. This game suffer of a bad reputation because of the training time, and this kind of expansion don't help. Also, for exemple, when the torpedoes was nerfed, there was some compensations, like the better ROF, etc... So I manage to make them interresting. Here, nothing had been done to compensate, and this nerf make problems with the already difficult fitting process of a Caldari ship : Electronic, Weapon, Tank, you can have 2 not 3 despite the fact that some armor tankers can have sometimes 3. Also, this nerf who was the consequence of the "speed nerf" sound like more a "speed boost" for me, as this motivates more than before to use a speed tank. So it is more unacceptable. Quote: In any other game, when you roll a priest, you are a priest for life. You want to do things a Warrior does? Tough. You have to start anew with a new character. Yes, but in any other games, it is your efforts who permit to do everything, so this compensate. In EvE, nothing compensate the obligation of waiting, and sometimes nothing is here to compensate a nerf.
ouroboros trading Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.11.14 21:53:00 - [60] Originally by: RedSplat Can we have this stickied? imma werking on it moves hand in a rapid oscillating fashion

Mikal Drey Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.14 21:58:00 - [61] hey hey Ice, this is exactly how us Matari pilots have been doing it for years. Caldari got complacent and suffered for it. knowing the exact capabilities for your ship is always high on my list. just wanna add : 1. know your enemy : guristas jam - fit fof, serps damp - sensor booster. etc 2. raven isnt the only ship, a nh is the awesomeness :)
Noriko Sakai Gallente DC1 Coalition	Posted - 2008.11.14 22:11:00 - [62] We should at least temporary sticky this thread. Good post!
Khwalik Ghetto Kings	Posted - 2008.11.14 22:43:00 - [63] I endorse this post, well done
Ervol Libra Amarr Invenio Inceptum	Posted - 2008.11.14 23:33:00 - [64] /bump Just because its true and cool
Hecate Shaw Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.11.15 06:14:00 - [65] I'm stunned...a logical, well thought-out and honestly helpful post! Congratulations to the OP, and thank you! As to those who say that "train skills" isn't helpful: 1) The OP doesn't just say to train skills, it offers very specific insights into where your skills might be lacking and how to remedy that, and offers some tips on how to use what you have. 2) If you don't like the fact that battleships are rightfully skill-intensive to fly properly, may I suggest taking a different route and going for AF's and HAC's? Then go on to Command Ships for level 4 missions? I honestly think you'll have to spend some time working your way up no matter what, but it's a thought. Oh, and FYI...I spent almost 6 months training to fly a BS, in skills specific to one (the Raven)...and now I saw only a little difference in my Raven vs Frigs post-patch, which a painter took care of quite nicely. Turns out I didn't need quite so much tank after all.
S'vart Tseirgn Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.15 08:37:00 - [66] Op - awesome post, good work Only one thing I noticed was wrong with it...optimal shield recharge is 30%, not 25% (having used passive ships for the last >12mths :P)
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.11.15 08:44:00 - [67] Good first post. Just for reference, I can say my alt hasn't even fitted the TP (and havn't got those skills either) and am still doing fine. Shield tank skills at IV, Energy Management IV and Energy System Op V with mix of medium/light t2 drones was the first thing I got, with missile skills at level 1 (yes). Next thing I got was Target Nav Prediction/Guidance IV. I still only got Cruise III on her I think, she's dabbling into other skills same time. But she still runs missions faster in Amarr space than Misanth does, in a Paladin, with t2 large guns etc. Yes, after the patch. Eat that, missile whiners. Read the OP's post, learn to shield boost at right time and use drones damnit.
Zalathar Minmatar Stellar Research Incorporated DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.11.15 08:54:00 - [68] excellent post, but there are things that this does not solve. For example when fighting angels and they ccelerate to 300m/s to get to you, you will start hitting them for about 50 to 70 damage. webs only get you so far, as they can't do anything about approach cpeed. Other than that, your guide covers most ways of getting around the nerf. ~~~~~~ mods, if you think i'm ugly please say "eeek!" ~~~~~~ eeeeeekk - Deckard eeeeee...K -Darth Patches gawwwd damn!!1 -zhuge you soo pretty I think you're stunningly handsome and let me just say that you're wearing that dead parrot on your shoulder in a particularly dashing way today. -Hango Your using up all the space hango! - Timmeh
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.11.15 10:40:00 - [69] My raven experiences post patch have been good. battleships seem to die at about the same rate, battle cruisers are still a 3 volley to kill. now Npc cruisers are a bit tougher to kill, but I usually let my drones kill them, or just shoot them with my paladin (in this case a drake, which did fine). I have been using waves of all light drones recently due to disconnect problems, so that hasn't been much of an issue. (cruise 4, guided missile precision 1, target navigation prediction 1, cal bs 5, 4 bcus, no painter) I have not had a chance to play with explosion velocity/radius rigs, or target painters.
Oftherocks Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.15 10:48:00 - [70] I appreciate the OP making such a rational and helpful post. However, here is my problem: I have excellent missile skills I have excellent TP skills I fly a Golem which has a TP bonus, and a explosion velocity bonus. When I fly my Golem, I fit the best TP available and use it on every ship I destroy. When I run missions I always load mission specific missiles. Still, after this patch I am incabable of inflicting anything close to full damage against BS's. So while I appreciate your post, I still believe there may be a small problem with the new missile mechanics.

Darth Vaders Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.15 11:08:00 - [71] Edited by: Darth Vaders on 15/11/2008 11:15:21 After trying the target painting for a while it seems to me that in an unbonused ship (in target painter use) you need 2 target painters as it is now to start seeing results and still it's not that great (I use the named one that gives the same attributes as the tech2 TP) In general the TP is considered a less effective EWAR weapon compaired to all the rest and with the recent changes in mind i would suggest to increase the signature radius increase percent the TP gives. Currently is at 30% for the tech 2 and i find it rather incignificant. Now if it had 40% signature increase things would be better. So my suggestion to CCP is that you should increase TP effectivness raising them at 40% signature radius increase. That way you boost slightly the ships that got a big hit in this patch like the "Missile Ships" (mostly the caldari line) and the Rapiers (due to the web nerf) and at the same time make the currently useless Belicose a bit more useful. In it's current state i don't think a single TP can make a difference in an unbonused ship considering the fact that you need to lose a middle and sacrifice tank or cap recharge that way. CCP think of it!
Thorian Baalnorn	Posted - 2008.11.15 11:40:00 - [72] Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 15/11/2008 11:40:48 I use an alternative method to tanking missions than the cookiecutter raven tank. I find it works quite well, though many flame me for such a build. but i typically have no problem tanking any L4 mission. My current setup( changed for the patch) Highs: 4- cruise launchers 2- heavy launchers 2- large smartbombs Mids 1- target painter 2- invulns 3- large shield extenders lows 2-5 shield power relays( mission variable) 0-3 BCS ( mission variable) Rigs 3 - shield purgers Drones 15- lights( though you could do 5 med and 5 lights and switch them back and forth depending on target size) The low slots are variable for your tank. easy missions more BCS, heavy dps missions more relays to tank. typically i can do most missions with 2 BCS. you could switch smart bombs with a drone link for extra drone range. or run a NOS though i rarely fall below 50% cap even when heavily tanking. I use a couple of heavies to help with the frigs and cruisers. if i get a heavy BS mission( like recon part 2) these would switched to cruise missiles. While this may get flames by vet players. i find it is far superior to active tanks at least for my skill level ( 5 mil SP).i very rarely have to warp out of a mission to "recharge" and usually the only time i do is because i wasnt paying attention to triggers. I would like to add one more suggestion no matter what type of tank you use. Use the eve mission survival guide located here: http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=MissionReports This is probably the most important thing you will need on l4 missions. It makes doing missions 10 times easier. It will save you alot of headache and probably a few ships.
Dibsi Dei Salamyhkaisten kilta	Posted - 2008.11.15 11:43:00 - [73] Sticky this
Vaugue	Posted - 2008.11.15 11:48:00 - [74] Edited by: Vaugue on 15/11/2008 11:56:35 hmm. I am one of those Nighthawk pilots currently doing 4's. I don't fit a painter... i don't even use a cut and paste set up, I don't read up much on fits. Just go with my own style and common sense. I ask for advice here and there when I need it and ussualy get some good answers and varried opinions. 6 CN heavies. 2 passive shield hardners. (gurista faction) 1 Large Shield Booster (gurista faction) 2 T2 large extenders. 2 T2 BCU's 2 T2 Diagnostics 1 Damage Control Edit : Should I mention I have 0 rigs lol. I just happened to notice at the bottom of the fit screen 2 little open slots and I was like "What are those". Haven't trained it yet and had no clue what they were till a couple days ago Also just learned about overheating. Had no clue there either. Couple weeks of some catch up and I should see some nifty improvements. I run 4's with no issues. Every mission with the above set up. I dont switch out mods or nothing. I go with what I got. Sure I don't get em' done as fast as the solopwnmobile. Even have to warp out now and again if I get a massive blob. Not that often though, NH tanks like a beast. Should also mention I only have 17 million SP. (very focused on NH though, been a BC pilot since even before Drake exsisted. Good ole ferrox loaded with launchers). Will be a NH till I'm old and grey or until T3 Commandships show up someday if at all Not trying to brag a fitting or anything. Really though if my noobness (and I'm pretty green and comming back from a 2 year break so rusty and behind the times to add to that) can just log in after not playing for 2 years, missing a tonne of new skills, and clueless to some new mechanics and do 4's with very little to no troubles I really can't see the huge deal here. I guess if a mission takes someone 15 mins longer it's just such a waste a time and needs to be changed. Or maybe it's because cut and paste no brainer fittings don't work now? There's a bit more tactical choices to be made due to balancing. God forbid people have to think about thier set up, or even be at the keys while they play.
My Sister	Posted - 2008.11.15 12:35:00 - [75] Can i Add a couple of things here perhaps? i've been bitterly opposed to the missile changes for that last few days but to be fair the first few missions where i came up against frigs i was getting the elite version that were hard to kill any way and was a bit freaked out to be hitting them for 11 each. since then i have decided to see what i can do you work with the tools we have no since there is not much else i can do in the short term but get over it and soldier on. imo painters are crap without all the support skills (wich i dont have yet) - it added 3 damage points to the frigs i was shooting and 10 points to the BS i was hitting. a 4 slot tank is ok if you are running agsint minnies or guristas since you get about 75/65 resists but it would be craps for angels or anything that hits with em/therm. a 5 slot with a faction invuln and 2 spec hardners is better. so now you have at least one free slot - what to put in it. webbers are ok the do help a lot better than a painter - i will comparte again when i train the additional skills that boost painter effect. but what i HAVE found is that an AB is just what the doctor ordered. first it allows you to kite rats really really well and after all what are caldari if not ranged damage. the real benefit here is that with your AB you can mitigate up to 60% of all incoming missile damage. i was laughing when torps were hitting me for 48 damage. i stopped still to see what the normal hit was and it was 105 standing still. cruise were hitting for 27.8 on this particular day. i was doing GE and throwing caution to the wind popping off all the triggers and not having a problem. (the flip side of that is if you choose to use missiles in pvp it means that you get tanked by the same amount just cos your opponent has fit an AB which is too much imo) also i dropped 2 bcus' and fit and extra PDU2 and a temprary cpu till my riggs skilsl are up and then trashed 2 CCC's and fit 2 flare rigs. my missile exp velocity is now 100, up from 69. there is also a couple of implants im getting one that gives 5% exp velocity and another that gives lesss cpu needs for launchers (needed for the rig drawback) my frig killing worries are over and with the ab fitted i fele that my damage mitigation is much better than it was when i used to sit in one spot and soak it all up. missiels are tanked very well and the AB also gets you out of laser or gun optimal very fast. guns and lasers dont even screatch ya at max range, and you get the bonus of a long tim to lock frigs and waste em as the burn in towards you. its not often now that i even have to worry about silly little drones etc. i only pop em out now if i get webbed ccos thats just not cool at all. thanks
Thorian Baalnorn	Posted - 2008.11.15 12:42:00 - [76] Originally by: My Sister also i dropped 2 bcus' and fit and extra PDU2 and a temprary cpu till my riggs skilsl are up and then trashed 2 CCC's and fit 2 flare rigs. my missile exp velocity is now 100, up from 69. there is also a couple of implants im getting one that gives 5% exp velocity and another that gives lesss cpu needs for launchers (needed for the rig drawback) thanks If you train up the rigging( in this case launcher rigging) it help offsets the drawback. you could train launcher rigging 1 level and probably wouldnt need the implant.
My Sister	Posted - 2008.11.15 12:47:00 - [77] thanks yes im im the way to level 3 will continue to lvl4 and i did mention the cpu was temporary - i just need more because im fitting an AB and the flare rigs are new and im still training down the drawbacks :)
Vaugue	Posted - 2008.11.15 12:48:00 - [78] Edited by: Vaugue on 15/11/2008 12:50:08 Originally by: My Sister Stuff cudos for adaptation Agree with you on the AB thing though. I tried this literaly a few minutes ago and wow you aren't kidding about ab mitigating dmg. It's like an ab is like fitting 2 or 3 tanking mods and I zip around faster. Almost feels like cheating. I haven't pvp'd since I returned but to think of the AB against me will mitigate that much of me. Kinda scary. Will have to deal with it. I enjoy being support anyway rather than a pure killer. Hence the CS lover that I am
My Sister	Posted - 2008.11.15 12:58:00 - [79] Edited by: My Sister on 15/11/2008 13:06:11 Edited by: My Sister on 15/11/2008 13:05:21 Originally by: Vaugue cudos for adaptation Agree with you on the AB thing though. I tried this literaly a few minutes ago and wow you aren't kidding about ab mitigating dmg. It's like an ab is like fitting 2 or 3 tanking mods and I zip around faster. Almost feels like cheating. I haven't pvp'd since I returned but to think of the AB against me will mitigate that much of me. Kinda scary. Will have to deal with it. I enjoy being support anyway rather than a pure killer. Hence the CS lover that I am yeah but i think ravens havent been a solo pvp ship for a very long time anyway - somthing about people seeing the damned missiles comming from afar and warping out or just speed tanking. so we'll be needing that tackler, in any case we'll be fine flying with the support we've become accustomed to in the past. i think we've got a handle on the missions now anyway :) in a way i think we may just be better off now in pvp because all that sig radius stuff and speed stuff CAN be turned around we just gotta work up a pvp fit that takes advantage of the new mechanics if p[ainters become popular so several others in your party all paint the primary i can see how a number of them on a target combined with a flare rigged missile boat could really top out the damage past what we have its really scaleable damage now also that target navigation prediction skill is much more worthwhile training to level 5 - i spent 75 mil on a plant that gives me only 5% exp velocity where that skill gives 10% of the same per level. even after dropping 2 bcu's my dmage is only 10 short of what is was with 4 factions fitted before i changed my fit - im feeling optomistic. however i shouldnt crow too much about it - if it sounds too good it might get nerfed...
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.15 13:00:00 - [80] Op should add: train up DCU II (Damage Controll II). Don't leave home without it.

ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.11.15 14:36:00 - [81] Originally by: Slistine Death OP... thank you for your time. However, I PVP occasionally in a cruise Raven, I've enjoyed a SB cruise manticore and various other uses of missile systems IN PVP.A BS can now speed tank me with a single AB fitted as soon as they get over 170m/s. And this is directed directly CCP Navigator... what is your solution to that one? HUH? More stupid nerfs making a whole class of weapon systems completely worthless along with player's millions of sps and months of training down the tube. CCP Navigator when was the last time you actually played EVE? And when was the last time anyone from CCP responded to a post asking a real question? Read my other recent posts if you want to get an idea of what a portion of EVE thinks of the direction you guys are taking this year. Can EYE HAVE YOUR STUFF?
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.15 14:42:00 - [82] Bump 'cause it STILL hasn't been stickied I don't want to set the world on fire
Calranthe	Posted - 2008.11.15 14:58:00 - [83] Originally by: ******vomDIENST Originally by:** Ice Moon If you're in dire trouble in L4 missions after the patch, then you will need to train up some skills and / or refit your ship. That's a reality. But, this may not be as much of a 'mare as you think: I thought I'd pen some (probably obvious or incorrect) comments, just in case newer players might be a bit lost... Give me an advice what i shall do if i have regular shutdowns and crahses, because CCP isnt able to fix the realtek or the ATI problem? I need a perma fitting otherwise i lose my ship... Shutdowns could be alot of reasons Simple but costly solution swap to a decent sound card and nvidia graphics card
Asuri Kinnes Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.11.15 15:48:00 - [84] Originally by: Slistine Death The question still hasn't been answered on the unbalancing in pvp when using missiles. The problem still remains and the question has been avoided and not answered. Op did do a nice job of offering solutions to the PVE missile carebear, however PVP cruise boat setups are broken and PVE is not PVP. And I've been getting 'served' by CCP every since the boot.ini issue. Ummmm - OP did a bang up job on defining the problem(s), offering suggestions for fits and training, and avoided whining. OP was specifically working for the "PVE RAVEN PILOT". OP has done a service for all of us who were feeling somewhat (how shall I say this?) "used" by the adjustment. On the other hand, you have (partially) described a problem, and brought nothing else. Why don't you copy/past the OP's original post, go to the appropriate design thread, and try to fill in the blanks for a PVP setup? THEN, at the very end (when everyone is amazed at your scintillating intellect) - ask (VERY POLITELY) if, maybe, CCP hasn't adjusted missiles just a TINY bit too much, as the differences in Missiles pre/post patch are too extreme. I believe that will get you much further with your concerns for PVP missile fits than trolling a PVE thread... vOv. Bye the way, just so its clear - I'm a pve'r that just started getting into PvP, with Missiles, and I was totally P.O.'d at the changes - I mean really - explosion velocities that resembled the speed at which eggs boil and not actually military weapons? Even if CCP did over-nerf missiles for pve/pvp - OP's method is going to attract FAR more attention than all the negative/strident posting from everyone else - it just becomes "background noise" after so much... Good luck with the pvp fix - thanks OP.
Dmian Gallente Gallenterrorisme	Posted - 2008.11.15 16:36:00 - [85] Bumping a great thread. ---- Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here
Bangkirai Brewery Research Ltd Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.11.15 16:43:00 - [86] Great thread, but it doesnt fix any problems. I am better trained then what TS is posting. Conclusions so far from me: t1 is working as intended, well sort off, dps decreased however. t2 is NOT working as intended. No matter what implants, skills, use of target painter or not you will use. Raven lost its role, no matter if you follow the examples of the TS. Hams are even less good then before, the javelin assault even lost their range they had before patch. Well trained character, that can fly multiple race, is better off picking a gallente drone ship on this moment. Cheaper ships to lose and fit then raven and does more dps on this moment. A well trained person, doesnt need any target painting if using rigor rigs on raven. The paint is usefull for fury cruise, but then again, just using t1 and keep your tank well is better. Lets face it however, lvl 4 missions are not difficult in almost any ship by well trained characters. At this moment the changes in the games only means: Its not interesting to train t2 cruise skills anymore or use the ammo. Better pick another race then caldari, because they just can be trained and fitted more efficient for most roles now. The changes in game are not things, that you can fix by fitting or training skills. Missiles have very hard penalties now, while the rats are not even changed with speed, that is one of the problems. They fly as fast as before.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.11.15 16:57:00 - [87] Originally by: My Sister a 4 slot tank is ok if you are running agsint minnies or guristas since you get about 75/65 resists but it would be craps for angels or anything that hits with em/therm. a 5 slot with a faction invuln and 2 spec hardners is better. Quite nice to see your experience, but I just want to correct this misconception you posted. My alt is running lv4's in Amarr space, a bit over half the missions are doing EM/Thermal damage and I run a 3 or 4-slot tank. My missile skills are level 3 and shield tank skills level 4, with one or two at lv5 so I can fit full t2. Only faction item I have is my shield boost Amp as I can't use t2 - I will swap to t2 when I can use it. The last part of missions are a mix of omnitanked, Angels and Guristas/Serpentis, all of those I run a 4-slot tank. Four BCU in lows, Arbalest launchers and rest fit t2, nothing special at all, and quite low skills. I'm starting to think that these mission issues are racial related, or that full-skilled pilots that are relying alot on their high max damage, are having more issues than us mid-skill-pilots. As I posted in my previous post, that alt of mine still does better than Misanth that can fly Paladin with t2 large guns and all support at lv5. "Still" means after the expansion. I am quite active during the missions tho, X-L booster and I move in certain patterns to keep my killing perfectly balanced with the boosting (and I keep the shield/cap regen at ideal levels). Could be that it's a matter of racial missions, strategies in missions, or fittings, I don't know.. but the major difference I notice is that I have to swap between medium/light drones alot. Not a bit difference on my cruises.
Karentaki Gallente Fighting While Intoxicated Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.11.15 17:39:00 - [88] Wow, great informative and well thought out thread. Hopefully this will calm the forums down a bit. Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Rumba Purring	Posted - 2008.11.15 17:53:00 - [89] Without being judgemental whether new changes are good or bad, here's my experience coping with the 'new hand' dealt to me. I fly L4 missions in Domain with a cruise Raven. Most of my BS and missile skills are at 4, only few at 5. I added a target painter following suggestions in forum. In order to make a room, I sacrificed a shield resistance module. To compensate for loss in tank, I found flying my ship arround helpful. Even without AB, damage mitigation from base BS speed seems to more than make up for loss in my ships tank if I can maintain speed. If I'm webbed, I need to kill webbers fast. To address this, my drone arsenal was adjusted to include T2 light drones, which are pretty effective in taking out webbers. I have now hot keys assigned so that I can swap drones in a snap. If I get multiple webbers, though, even a full set of T2 light drones will take some time to kill them all off, and in the meanwhile shield will drop rather fast, which means I have to use booster more frequently than than my cap regen can handle. (I don't like cap-stable perma boost setting - I fit BCUs for damage.) So now I use a heavy NOS to supplement cap regen, which means I have to make sure there are rats within range to suck cap from. Bottomline, flying a level 4 mission now is a rather busy activity (more fun, imo). It's no longer warp in, stay stationary, ctrl-click on overview, F1-F7. Now I have to keep ship flying to mitigate damage, to keep some rats within NOS range, constantly swap between drone types, activate/deactivate shield boost & NOS, etc. But I have not experienced any change in time it takes to complete missions, if anything, they go faster, since I'm applying the right 'tool' to the right job. Just sharing my experience.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.11.15 17:58:00 - [90] Rumba, that goes pretty much in-line with what I posted above. I've always been moving around tho, and I don't have my shield drop that fast (the extra buffer from CNR over Raven is really nifty when a bit lower skilled). My alt has better capskills than shield tank skills, and 3x CCC fitted tho, but exactly like you described the difference is the drones, and the activity in missions. Paying more attention to shieldboosting and swapping medium/lights in/out all the time is the major thing, but the difference in killing speed is neglible, I havn't even noticed a change there.

KhaniKirai	Posted - 2008.11.15 18:07:00 - [91] Rumba, are you telling me your BS npc's fly slower??? Because the drone regions BS are not flying slower at all.
Niffa	Posted - 2008.11.15 20:05:00 - [92] Target painters work great with drones. Target painters work great with guns. Target painters work lousy with missiles, cause the effect is negated when the target is moving even at slow speeds due to the laughable low explosion velocity of missiles. A web is not an option, fighting in webrange is suicide with missiles since they are outdamaged by everything else in that range. If CCP wants missiles-boats to fight in webrange, they should put missile damage on par with other weapon systems for that range.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.11.15 20:23:00 - [93] Originally by: Niffa Target painters work lousy with missiles, cause the effect is negated when the target is moving even at slow speeds due to the laughable low explosion velocity of missiles. Wrong. Missile damage after qr is calculated with the signiture radius being the primary modifier and not velocity so the new lower explosion velocity is misleading. This is why ships using an ab will take less damage and mwd ships will get pwnd if the missile is fast enough to catch them.
My Sister	Posted - 2008.11.15 21:24:00 - [94] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Niffa Target painters work lousy with missiles, cause the effect is negated when the target is moving even at slow speeds due to the laughable low explosion velocity of missiles. Wrong. Missile damage after qr is calculated with the signiture radius being the primary modifier and not velocity so the new lower explosion velocity is misleading. This is why ships using an ab will take less damage and mwd ships will get pwnd if the missile is fast enough to catch them. no i think your wrong, in my big arse BS i mitigate up to 60% damage from missiles just from AB'ing around. velocity is a huge factor here. the sig radius/mwd thing just makes you a sitting duck for a missile now. it still doesnt change the fact that your targets velocity is a huge factor - that the lower explosion velocity for missiles is not misleading at all, its just as significant as sig raduis if not more so. as i would have to fit 3 or more mods/rigs to get the same gains that the AB mitigates.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.11.15 21:29:00 - [95] Edited by: Pohbis on 15/11/2008 21:34:01 Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Niffa Target painters work lousy with missiles, cause the effect is negated when the target is moving even at slow speeds due to the laughable low explosion velocity of missiles. Wrong. Missile damage after qr is calculated with the signiture radius being the primary modifier and not velocity so the new lower explosion velocity is misleading. This is why ships using an ab will take less damage and mwd ships will get pwnd if the missile is fast enough to catch them. You have no clue what you are talking about. Just stop, or at least go learn the formula for missile damage before spouting nonsense.
Illwill Bill Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.11.16 19:45:00 - [96] As some people were looking for information, that is available in the nicely written OP, this thread will now get a small bump.


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