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Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.11.15 12:44:00 -
[31]
Quote: People survived without cooldown timers a week ago
Indeed I agree with you, however I'm also sure you can appreciate that the comparison isn't perfect since strategies were different.
Quote: - People were told of the MWD/scrambler changes. If someone doesnt read patchnotes, and dies due to that fault...it isnt CCPs fault. Its the pilot who didnt read the patchnotes.
Indeed they were told. I was asking what your reaction would be if there hadn't been any mention. This is what the patchnotes had to say about the cov ops on blockade runners:
Quote: The Crane, Prorator, Prowler and Viator can now equip a covert ops cloak and can therefore warp whilst cloaked now. In addition these four ships can gain a 5% bonus per transports skill level to the CPU need of fitting a covert ops cloak.
Originally by: Bald Rikk Had you looked at the module info you would see that the reactivation delay shows as 30 seconds
Yes I was already aware of this, and I'm sure you're aware that this has fact has always had little bearing on any previous ships that could use them? There was no mention that this rule was different for BRs. That is the issue. |
Waxau
Mortis Angelus The Church.
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Posted - 2008.11.15 13:15:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Waxau on 15/11/2008 13:23:47 Scagga - In relation to the scramblers vs mwds...If the change hadnt been mentioned, id have petitioned and been reinbursed. I had a scenario a few weeks ago, where i lost my crow due to a lack of mention of a certain game mechanic, in the patch notes. However, thats because the mechanics were changed.
MWDs and Scrams have been changed. And if they werent mentioned in the patch notes, then they would be elidgable for petition, and reimbursement. However, the cloaks that were added have no 'unmentioned' attributes. They have an attribute people assume they have. But no where in Eve do covert ops cloaks MEAN the ship have no recloak time. Thats the difference.
As for the patchnotes themselves...ill try to be clearer:
Quote: The Crane, Prorator, Prowler and Viator can now equip a covert ops cloak and can therefore warp whilst cloaked now. In addition these four ships can gain a 5% bonus per transports skill level to the CPU need of fitting a covert ops cloak.
No where in here does it say 'recloak timer reduced' or similar. |
Janu Hull
Caldari Terra Incognita Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.11.15 13:15:00 -
[33]
Originally by: PhaseShiftx Hrmmm maybe its just me but it seems that something has changed with the cov ops cloaks
The wierd thing is it sometimes still fuctions as I remember it used to.
Ok so Old Way Jump Next system loads Click to Warp to next gate Quickclick Cloak (which makes you near impossible to lock and you do the rest of your aligning while cloaked
As it is now Jump Next system loads Click to Warp to next gate Quickclick Cloak "Msg you failed to cloak due to cooldown timer 6 seconds" WTF?!?!?! and you align while fully visible and get locked and podded
the weird thing is if you click a bit after you warp but not too soon or too long then it works as it used to and you instacloak no delay. but the tolerance is like 0.1-0.2sec so is very easy to mess up
Has anyone else found this ?
Now I'm not gonna whine about it, it is what it is but if cov ops are meant to have a 5sec delay after decloaking from a jump then why does it still work sometimes if timed correctly. It should be either one or the other.
I haven't gotten that on the Buzzard, but I have gotten it on the Crane. Very nerve wracking. |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.11.15 13:55:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 15/11/2008 14:01:26 Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 15/11/2008 13:54:47
Originally by: Waxau
Quote: The Crane, Prorator, Prowler and Viator can now equip a covert ops cloak and can therefore warp whilst cloaked now. In addition these four ships can gain a 5% bonus per transports skill level to the CPU need of fitting a covert ops cloak.
No where in here does it say 'recloak timer reduced' or similar.
Yes. However as you know, for all previous ships that could fit cov ops cloaks, it has always previously been the case that the recloak timer has been reduced to 5 seconds. Since the blockade runner is, as of the last patch, the only exception to the rule, it is my opinion that this should have been mentioned.
It is comparable to not mentioning the changes to scramblers vs mwds. The reason I say this is that when one reads the patchnotes and the detail to which they describe the changes, making mention of this anomaly fits right in.
Edit:
Quote: However, the cloaks that were added have no 'unmentioned' attributes. They have an attribute people assume they have. But no where in Eve do covert ops cloaks MEAN the ship have no recloak time. Thats the difference.
It's a mentioned attribute that never manifested itself before. |
Waxau
Mortis Angelus The Church.
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:03:00 -
[35]
Not really mate....
The cov ops frigs and force recons both have a bonus to the recloak time. That is mentioned in the ship bonus/description. The blockade runners do not.
It would have been helpful for CCP to mention, correct. But in no way do you have a basis for reinbursement, as it was not CCP's fault. It was yours and the OP's for making an assumption.
Dont get me wrong, i understand where youre coming from. But the module isnt what gives the bonus. And knowledge of game mechanics/ship bonuses reveals that. Patch notes dont need to describe pre-existant module attributes. |
RedSplat
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:09:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Bimjo
Originally by: geomatica Remember, you get 30 sec of gate cloak.
I could have sworn I got more than 30 seconds the other day
I got close to a minute this morning, am getting some weird issues with latest patch; last night i jumped through a gate only to load a station environment and end up docked in a station in a system i was trying to jump out of. |
geomatica
Infusion. G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.11.15 15:07:00 -
[37]
Originally by: RedSplat
Originally by: Bimjo
Originally by: geomatica Remember, you get 30 sec of gate cloak.
I could have sworn I got more than 30 seconds the other day
I got close to a minute this morning, am getting some weird issues with latest patch; last night i jumped through a gate only to load a station environment and end up docked in a station in a system i was trying to jump out of.
That right there is some seriously Ninja skills. Well played Ninja. Well played... *eyes, stares, dramatic pause*
Also, didn't know they kicked up the gatecloak timer. Nifty.
Sig Coming Soon(TM)
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MalVortex
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2008.11.15 16:49:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Waxau Not really mate....
The cov ops frigs and force recons both have a bonus to the recloak time. That is mentioned in the ship bonus/description. The blockade runners do not.
Actually, all recons have the 5 second cloak reactivation bonus.
Jumping through gates gives you a 30 second session change timer. Enable the timer display on your client, when it disappears you've waited long enough for your cloak. I don't know precisely how long the cloak lasts, I'd like to have said 45s but I can't confirm that. Either way, you have the session change timer + a little extra.
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Tobin Shalim
Vulcan Foundry OPUS Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.15 17:28:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Zenior The Covert Ops cloak is (stealth) nerfed. It now has a 30 second reactivation delaay. This does not affect Covert Ops cloaks that have been fitted before QR - they still have only 5 seconds delay.
Confirmed. -----
Originally by: Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it
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Tobin Shalim
Vulcan Foundry OPUS Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.15 17:33:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Waxau
It wasnt mentioned in the patch notes, correct. Why? Because they shouldnt need to. The recloak time on Cov Ops is a bonus of theirs. It isnt on the Blockade Runners. If the bonus isnt listed, then its up to the player to realise that. Nothing was changed. No special 'change' was applied. The ship isnt bonused to the reactivation delay. Which means, you need a slight bit of common sense when flying the ship. And im glad people are getting caught out with it tbh. Gives me a bit of light at the end of the tunnel.
Actually, no, that should be mentioned in the patch notes. Those of us that run covert ops ships are used to a 5 sec delay (which is what allows us to survive). You are now putting that module on a class of ships that never had it before, with us expecting the same bonuses/characteristics that we're used to. So it SHOULD be in patch notes that they're (BR's) not getting the same bonuses with the module. Furthermore, it should be in the ship info/bonuses for the covert ops class ships that reactivation timer is reduced based on some skill, but they don't have that in the Show Info window either. -----
Originally by: Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.11.15 17:37:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Wet Ferret on 15/11/2008 17:37:48 The cov op cloak for BRs description was just slapped on, without even mention of how much of a CPU reduction was on it (which spawned many forums posts along the lines of "WTF, can they actually fit these?"). After finding out that they did, in fact, work... there wasn't any reason to assume that they didn't work the same as they do for the other ships that are designed to use them. |
Zeul
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Posted - 2008.11.15 17:59:00 -
[42]
I always wait until I see the capacitor reduce before I attempt to cloak after initiating the warp out
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Rhadamantine
Game Community
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Posted - 2008.11.15 18:53:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Zeul I always wait until I see the capacitor reduce before I attempt to cloak after initiating the warp out
I'll have what he's drinking.
Regards. Rhadamantine. |
Imaos
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Posted - 2008.11.15 19:26:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Tobin Shalim
Originally by: Waxau
It wasnt mentioned in the patch notes, correct. Why? Because they shouldnt need to. The recloak time on Cov Ops is a bonus of theirs. It isnt on the Blockade Runners. If the bonus isnt listed, then its up to the player to realise that. Nothing was changed. No special 'change' was applied. The ship isnt bonused to the reactivation delay. Which means, you need a slight bit of common sense when flying the ship. And im glad people are getting caught out with it tbh. Gives me a bit of light at the end of the tunnel.
Actually, no, that should be mentioned in the patch notes. Those of us that run covert ops ships are used to a 5 sec delay (which is what allows us to survive). You are now putting that module on a class of ships that never had it before, with us expecting the same bonuses/characteristics that we're used to. So it SHOULD be in patch notes that they're (BR's) not getting the same bonuses with the module. Furthermore, it should be in the ship info/bonuses for the covert ops class ships that reactivation timer is reduced based on some skill, but they don't have that in the Show Info window either.
No. It shouldn't. There is enough info out there and being used to something on one ship doesn't mean it is used to work that way on other ships.
There is no warning when you step up from frigs to cruisers for missioning that your guns will have trouble tracking.
Nobody tells you that your cruises on a raven will have less performance vs small targets than on a sb.
There is no information on targetpainters that they help with 'tracking'.
All that information can be gained by reading. You aren't supposed that everything handles the same or that there is a website with a button 'show me what to do next'.
Imaos |
Khorin D'tael
Caldari D'tael Contracts
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Posted - 2008.11.15 19:28:00 -
[45]
Just checked out the time it takes to stay cloaked when you jump through a gate and it is around the 1 minute mark. Sometimes a second or two more sometimes less.
As regards the co-ops on BR's yes there is a delay so i found the best way to overcome that was to cloak when you initiate warp and decloak as soon as you enter it. By the time you hit the next gate and jump through you can cloak again unless it's really close between gates in the last system.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.15 20:44:00 -
[46]
I was under the impression that you get 60 secs of gatecloak.
hmmm better look into this.
Either way... it's at least a minute... and if that means I need to sit still and wait for a little bit... no problem... its not like they will see me arrive anyway.
: O )
Small price to pay for the ability to warp out invisible. |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.11.16 02:01:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Imaos
No. It shouldn't. There is enough info out there and being used to something on one ship doesn't mean it is used to work that way on other ships.
There is no warning when you step up from frigs to cruisers for missioning that your guns will have trouble tracking.
Nobody tells you that your cruises on a raven will have less performance vs small targets than on a sb.
There is no information on targetpainters that they help with 'tracking'.
All that information can be gained by reading. You aren't supposed that everything handles the same or that there is a website with a button 'show me what to do next'.
Imaos
You're half-right. The lack of a bonus should not necessarily be included in the description, but the description is still screwy. The function in question should be listed on the ships that do get it, so we could easily compare the descriptions and draw our own conclusions from there. Instead, we got "can fit cov ops cloaks" and we're left to assume the rest and even wonder if there is a proper CPU reduction.
Descriptions are there for a reason, bro. They should be... well, descriptive (accurately, anyway).
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Thercon Jair
Minmatar InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.11.16 02:20:00 -
[48]
The gate cloak is 1min. Not 30sec, nor 2min, it's 1min ;)
But, when I jump and see a dictor I still like to hit warp immediately before he drops the bubble. Why? If you've already activated your warp it's not going to affect you (even when you're still aligning). I haven't tried it with heavy dictors though. The focused variant will surely pull you out of warp even though you've already initiated warp. I'm not sure with the bubble funktion of it. Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar! |
Antion
Gallente Koshaku Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.11.16 03:48:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Thercon Jair The gate cloak is 1min. Not 30sec, nor 2min, it's 1min ;)
But, when I jump and see a dictor I still like to hit warp immediately before he drops the bubble. Why? If you've already activated your warp it's not going to affect you (even when you're still aligning). I haven't tried it with heavy dictors though. The focused variant will surely pull you out of warp even though you've already initiated warp. I'm not sure with the bubble funktion of it.
Ah no, Dictor dropped bubbles are supposed to stop warp, period. Otherwise, there would be quite a few less mothership kills. If what you said is true, then this will need to be fixed yet again. This was the case quite a while ago when ccp first introduced the Dictor, but was later fixed. |
narccissa
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Posted - 2008.11.16 04:17:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Waxau Not really mate....
The cov ops frigs and force recons both have a bonus to the recloak time. That is mentioned in the ship bonus/description. The blockade runners do not.
It would have been helpful for CCP to mention, correct. But in no way do you have a basis for reinbursement, as it was not CCP's fault. It was yours and the OP's for making an assumption.
Dont get me wrong, i understand where youre coming from. But the module isnt what gives the bonus. And knowledge of game mechanics/ship bonuses reveals that. Patch notes dont need to describe pre-existant module attributes.
While anyone reading the numerous QR thread would have realized this attribute, someone should not have to read the forum to recognize the change. While I am tempted to agree with you I think the csm candidate has a point.
ALL SHIPS that could use the Cov ops cloak had the bonus. What you are failing to understand is that because all ships had such a bonus to anyone using it, a cov ops cloak had a 5s reactivation timer.
For all intents and purposes a ship with a covert ops cloak must have that effect. This new change, that a ship with covert ops cloak bonus' would not have such a timer is new. The addition of 1 covert ops feature without the other is unprecedented. as such, ccp should have made an acknowledgement of the change.
In gameplay this is more serious, as the inability to use the module after arriving upon a gate is quite new and infact also unprecedented. This coupled with the neccessity of the module is in my opinion a ccp mistake. They really should have mentioned it. Didn't affect me but... ccp should improve on it.
It's something ccp should have mentioned, that's all.
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wide
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.11.16 05:45:00 -
[51]
check this post |
Aioa
Planetary Assault Systems
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Posted - 2008.11.16 10:25:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Tobin Shalim
Originally by: Zenior The Covert Ops cloak is (stealth) nerfed. It now has a 30 second reactivation delaay. This does not affect Covert Ops cloaks that have been fitted before QR - they still have only 5 seconds delay.
Confirmed.
not confirmed at all, in fact... --
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dum dumpy
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Posted - 2008.11.16 11:11:00 -
[53]
So the new way only use the cloak to get away from gate as soon as you are in warp de activate the cloak. On arrival at next gate your timer will have expired so jump in warp to....... cloak repeat Is that so hard? |
Mr Friendly
The Lost and The Damned
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Posted - 2008.11.16 13:17:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Imaos
No. It shouldn't. There is enough info out there and being used to something on one ship doesn't mean it is used to work that way on other ships.
There is no warning when you step up from frigs to cruisers for missioning that your guns will have trouble tracking.
Nobody tells you that your cruises on a raven will have less performance vs small targets than on a sb.
There is no information on targetpainters that they help with 'tracking'.
All that information can be gained by reading. You aren't supposed that everything handles the same or that there is a website with a button 'show me what to do next'.
Imaos
Are you seriously arguing that Eve needs less documentation? Seriously?
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Imaos
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Posted - 2008.11.16 13:51:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Mr Friendly
Originally by: Imaos
No. It shouldn't. There is enough info out there and being used to something on one ship doesn't mean it is used to work that way on other ships.
There is no warning when you step up from frigs to cruisers for missioning that your guns will have trouble tracking.
Nobody tells you that your cruises on a raven will have less performance vs small targets than on a sb.
There is no information on targetpainters that they help with 'tracking'.
All that information can be gained by reading. You aren't supposed that everything handles the same or that there is a website with a button 'show me what to do next'.
Imaos
Are you seriously arguing that Eve needs less documentation? Seriously?
No. I am not. I am arguing that the information is already out there and that because module x on ship y does z, module x on ship g not necessarily generates effect z again. If something is wrong it is the description on the recons/cov ops and not the description on cloak or BR.
I myself was pretty much used to 10% cap usage reduction on the amarr ships and made conclusions based on that, but noticed that that isn't true. (Not really that critical, but hey I just could have read the description before playing around in space).
Imaos |
Garion Avarr
Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.11.16 18:11:00 -
[56]
If all ships capable of using a certain module have a hidden bonus with that module, it is logical to expect that new ships capable of using the same module will have the same bonus unless it is otherwise specified.
Now, if the bonus had been specified for the previous ships but was not specified for the new ship, then it would not be logical to expect it to have it. But since the bonus was never specified, but simply existed for all ships capable of using the module . . . then it's somewhat implied that ALL ships capable of using it will get that same bonus (unless it is specifically stated that they don't).
Maybe it's a balance issue, maybe not. Mostly I think it's more of an annoyance, since it seems that anyone that knows about it and has at least a little intelligence can probably work around it. But I'll let CCP be the judge for now. Regardless, however, when it is different than what players have been led to logically expect, you need to specifically point it out -- which I do not believe was done, or not done clearly enough. |
Imaos
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Posted - 2008.11.18 09:14:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Garion Avarr If all ships capable of using a certain module have a hidden bonus with that module, it is logical to expect that new ships capable of using the same module will have the same bonus unless it is otherwise specified.
No. There were lots of threads here with 30 seconds reactivation when poeple read the cloaks description and moaned that that is too long for a recon/cov ops to funtion. People noted that there is a hidden bonus over and over for the specific ships and than came a time when people no longer checked the module and just accepted the cloak as it is. Now they are coming back and notice the cloak doesn't work as they expected and then look in the description and cry stealth nerf even if nothing has changed.
They right way that should have been handled by a player would be: Ask yourself a question: The cloak itself has a 30 seconds reactivation delay. Does my ship has any bonus reducing that delay like the other ships that can use it? Answer: Hm. It isn't listed. I should assume the worst case and test it IN SPACE if it really doesn't have the bonus.
Quote:
Now, if the bonus had been specified for the previous ships but was not specified for the new ship, then it would not be logical to expect it to have it. But since the bonus was never specified, but simply existed for all ships capable of using the module . . . then it's somewhat implied that ALL ships capable of using it will get that same bonus (unless it is specifically stated that they don't).
Nope. The scientific way (and logical way) would be to assume it isn't there until you prove you got the hidden bonus.
Quote:
Maybe it's a balance issue, maybe not. Mostly I think it's more of an annoyance, since it seems that anyone that knows about it and has at least a little intelligence can probably work around it. But I'll let CCP be the judge for now. Regardless, however, when it is different than what players have been led to logically expect, you need to specifically point it out -- which I do not believe was done, or not done clearly enough.
You miss the difference between logical and convenient. It is convenient to assume it has the same bonus. It is logical to test that assumption (as it isn't listed).
Imaos |
Hoshi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.18 11:02:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Garion Avarr If all ships capable of using a certain module have a hidden bonus with that module, it is logical to expect that new ships capable of using the same module will have the same bonus unless it is otherwise specified.
If all ships capable of using a certain module have a hidden bonus for said module wouldn't it be better to remove said bonus and change the stats of the module to reflect that bonus? |
Diomidis
Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.18 11:47:00 -
[59]
ffs n omg: BR ships where VERY good before QR and with proper fitting and the MWD + Cloak technique made them almost uncatchable vs. anything but large blobs, and even then just 1x Hic/dic wasn't enough.
That made BR pilots over-confident.
The Cov-Ops cloak made them even MORE confident. The cloak re-calibration timer was there with both the improved and proto cloaks before QR - cannot recall any complains about it the last 1-2 years...
ffs n omg: just ask for a macro-ing, cloak-MWD-evade camp-warp out-jump autopilot or just accept your mistakes due to overconfidence. Sometimes, de-syncs or DCs could also kill you, but in 95% cases it's pilot-error. Sorry. |
SheriffFruitfly
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.18 12:49:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Garion Avarr If all ships capable of using a certain module have a hidden bonus with that module, it is logical to expect that new ships capable of using the same module will have the same bonus unless it is otherwise specified.
It's even more logical to just read the dayum ship description, instead of guessing. __________________________________________________________
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