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Dred 'Morte Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.11.15 23:07:00 - [1] I can't find much independent information regarding this. At first sight, it scares me. Having read lots about free market economics, central banking, fractional reserve banking, etc, the idea of EVE having banks scare the living s*** out of me. It would be fraud on a huge scale, no matter how exacly it's put in. But as this EBANK seems to me player controlled, I have good hopes the whole thing is a scam or it will simply fail when people loose confidence, try to make withdrawels en mass, and the whole thing fails. However, admiting much ignorance ragarding this issue, I ask fellow player to please tell me more about this. Thanks in advance.
Kira Mossolini	Posted - 2008.11.15 23:10:00 - [2] Edited by: Kira Mossolini on 15/11/2008 23:11:09 Edited by: Kira Mossolini on 15/11/2008 23:10:23 I have placed billions and received billions out of EBANK, EBANK currently loads about 3.4 Trillion ISK. Honestly the best way to test EBANK is to place 100m in it and try and withdraw it :) Put it like this, unless you're going to putting in trillions, you're fine. Their audit line for you: HERE
Hilion Narath Narath Asteroid Conservation Foundation	Posted - 2008.11.15 23:13:00 - [3] Edited by: Hilion Narath on 15/11/2008 23:13:37 Edited by: Hilion Narath on 15/11/2008 23:13:25 There is both an in-game channel (ebank I believe it is called, handily enough) and a plethora of threads regarding EBank in the Market Discussion forum. They also have website you can visit. Long and short of it is, it actually is extremely unlikely it is a scam. There is usually a thread every month or two by someone who has heard of it, knows nothing, and assumes it is a scam. They have roughly 1T, that is 1 Trillion isk in public money. 1,000,000,000,000isk. If they wanted to scam, I imagine they would have already. They have a variety of measures in place to assure that even should someone with access try and scam, they would only be able to take a small fraction, safeguarding the bank as a whole (which after well over a year of continuous profitable operation has sufficient reserves to cover such an event I'm sure.) Anyway, I would direct your questions to the EBank forums or the market discussion forum here on the e-o website. Or use eve-search of course. --- Hilion Narath - Ex-Angel, Pirate, Very Senior Citizen, Bootlegger, Conservationist?? The Assassin
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.11.15 23:14:00 - [4] I believe EBANK only has about 1 Trillian ATM. I interviewed Ricdic awhile back for eve-mag, see here to some of the answers to your questions. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Dred 'Morte Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.11.15 23:16:00 - [5] Ok, thanks, but one last question please: What are the reserves? That's the most important transparency needed. What % of reserve does the bank have, on average?
Hilion Narath Narath Asteroid Conservation Foundation	Posted - 2008.11.15 23:23:00 - [6] Well, I would hit the in game channel and find a representative for a better number, but I believe they keep something in the 20% area liquid. Now, this being eve, there is a good chance that a lot of their invested assets could be liquidated very quickly, but it isn't likely to be an issue. If for no other reason than there are likely quite a few players who have invested money and since quit the game. There have been several rounds of large withdraws (I imagine that the Orca lead to a few for example) and as far as I know they have never had any liquidity issues. Incidentally, as linked above, they have a pretty detailed stats page. --- Hilion Narath - Ex-Angel, Pirate, Very Senior Citizen, Bootlegger, Conservationist?? The Assassin
ramification	Posted - 2008.11.16 00:21:00 - [7] It's worth pointing out that EBank's interest rate of 3%/month is tiny compared to the amounts you can get by investing the same isk in normal trading. That's not to say it's a scam, just that they're obviously in business for the same reason that real banks are in business.
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.11.16 13:37:00 - [8] Originally by: Dred 'Morte I can't find much independent information regarding this.in advance. If you want to know a bit about it, go to the source. Jacob Mei did an interview recently for Eve-Mag.com covering the topic. http://www.eve-mag.com/archives/737 Hope it helps clear up some answers for you. I nor Eve-Mag.com actually endorses nor condones the services your interested but scared of. just a disclaimer ;)
Shakari Sween Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.11.16 14:17:00 - [9] Originally by: ShardowRhino Originally by: Dred 'Morte I can't find much independent information regarding this.in advance. If you want to know a bit about it, go to the source. Jacob Mei did an interview recently for Eve-Mag.com covering the topic. Eve-mag linkage fixarma! Hope it helps clear up some answers for you. I nor Eve-Mag.com actually endorses nor condones the services your interested but scared of. just a disclaimer ;) just fixed the link for you
Julius Rigel House Rigel	Posted - 2008.11.16 14:20:00 - [10] If you can't trust a pretend bank with your pretend money, how can you trust a real bank with your REAL money?

ouroboros trading Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.11.16 14:20:00 - [11] Originally by: ramification It's worth pointing out that EBank's interest rate of 3%/month is tiny compared to the amounts you can get by investing the same isk in normal trading. That's not to say it's a scam, just that they're obviously in business for the same reason that real banks are in business. can't help but agree tbh, you can make several 100% trading over their offered 3%. But that said, if you can't, or won't trade, eBank is probably not going to scam you.
AkRoYeR Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.16 14:37:00 - [12] Why would anyone trust a virtual bank for a long time anyway. Eventually some pirate will take it all, it's happened before and will happen again. Withdraw while you can, the end is near!
ouroboros trading Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.11.16 14:41:00 - [13] Originally by: AkRoYeR Why would anyone trust a virtual bank for a long time anyway. Eventually some pirate will take it all, it's happened before and will happen again. Withdraw while you can, the end is near! STOP TRYING TO CAUSE A RUN ON EBANK YOU FILTHY COMMIE REDISTRIBUTIONIST
Shakari Sween Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.11.16 14:53:00 - [14] Currently it looks like ebank is growing slowley, but steadily. When the release this share/baond thing it will become alot more active(not that its not active atm). What I hope they are thinking about is weither or not they will need more staff(tellers etc) when this happens, and how trust worthy the new staff they may need are. Atm I would say I trust ebank 95%, but if they do have to take on an influx of staff(ie really quickly) to cope with an influx of customers, how trust worthy are the NEW staff going to be, I would defintly see this as an oportunity for a posible scammer(thief) to get into the ranks of Ebank. So I just hope they are thinking ahead and posibly start veting posible staff now.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.16 14:54:00 - [15] Originally by: ouroboros trading Originally by: AkRoYeR Why would anyone trust a virtual bank for a long time anyway. Eventually some pirate will take it all, it's happened before and will happen again. Withdraw while you can, the end is near! STOP TRYING TO CAUSE A RUN ON EBANK YOU FILTHY COMMIE REDISTRIBUTIONIST Runs on the bank makes me cry
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.16 14:58:00 - [16] Originally by: Shakari Sween Currently it looks like ebank is growing slowley, but steadily. When the release this share/baond thing it will become alot more active(not that its not active atm). What I hope they are thinking about is weither or not they will need more staff(tellers etc) when this happens, and how trust worthy the new staff they may need are. Atm I would say I trust ebank 95%, but if they do have to take on an influx of staff(ie really quickly) to cope with an influx of customers, how trust worthy are the NEW staff going to be, I would defintly see this as an oportunity for a posible scammer(thief) to get into the ranks of Ebank. So I just hope they are thinking ahead and posibly start veting posible staff now. Trust me, we vet our staff. I recall a case where a programmer was hired(They CAN'T access our live server and all the code is audited), but there was very little information passed on. But that is obviously no good, so I personally made sure that it was corrected and the board of directors was properly informed about it. The person in question was obviously a very fine person. But you are right; we MUST vet our people very very carefully. There's not that much overhead with customers. We have 2000 customers and our in-game followers in our chat channel, as well as our staff, are extremely helpful. So everything is well
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.11.17 00:56:00 - [17] Hi guys. EBANK have been in operation for about 12 months now. Prior to this EBANK was in design and construction for approximately 5 months. We host a completely automated website and deposit tracking system and security (both on site and ingame) are our biggest priority. We host a large board of directors and very specific limitations on the amounts of funds one can have access too. As I am the character that recieves the deposits (and the CEO/Founder) I am generally the one with the most access. In the event that I scammed EBANK, I might be able to net approximately 150 billion isk. This is about 9% of the value of EBANK. The idea behind EBANK is that in the event of a scam the bank itself can take on the loss and continue to operate. Take a look at our annual report here. It's a 26 page document but it's a really good read.
Harrent Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:11:00 - [18] Edited by: Harrent on 17/11/2008 01:11:23 Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Hi guys. EBANK have been in operation for about 12 months now. Prior to this EBANK was in design and construction for approximately 5 months. We host a completely automated website and deposit tracking system and security (both on site and ingame) are our biggest priority. We host a large board of directors and very specific limitations on the amounts of funds one can have access too. As I am the character that recieves the deposits (and the CEO/Founder) I am generally the one with the most access. In the event that I scammed EBANK, I might be able to net approximately 150 billion isk. This is about 9% of the value of EBANK. The idea behind EBANK is that in the event of a scam the bank itself can take on the loss and continue to operate. Take a look at our annual report here. It's a 26 page document but it's a really good read. Read your document, will look into Ebank in the future! :) =----------= Semper Fi
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.11.17 05:13:00 - [19] Originally by: ouroboros trading Originally by: AkRoYeR Why would anyone trust a virtual bank for a long time anyway. Eventually some pirate will take it all, it's happened before and will happen again. Withdraw while you can, the end is near! STOP TRYING TO CAUSE A RUN ON EBANK YOU FILTHY COMMIE REDISTRIBUTIONIST Obama where?!?!?
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.11.17 05:28:00 - [20] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic In the event that I scammed EBANK, I might be able to net approximately 150 billion isk. This is about 9% of the value of EBANK. The idea behind EBANK is that in the event of a scam the bank itself can take on the loss and continue to operate. Take a look at our annual report here. It's a 26 page document but it's a really good read. The only way I see Ebank scamming is it all the directors got together and did it, not going to happen or someone slips a keylogger in on the web site and steals the account names and PS which is illegal in most countries. BTW the second one is the only way I see EBank failing fast and hard, I do see EBank falling apart over time as its a monster with all the work that the people do for free(don't tell them its a game, they might quit).

Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.11.17 06:05:00 - [21] Originally by: Bloody Rabbit Originally by: EBANK Ricdic In the event that I scammed EBANK, I might be able to net approximately 150 billion isk. This is about 9% of the value of EBANK. The idea behind EBANK is that in the event of a scam the bank itself can take on the loss and continue to operate. Take a look at our annual report here. It's a 26 page document but it's a really good read. The only way I see Ebank scamming is it all the directors got together and did it, not going to happen or someone slips a keylogger in on the web site and steals the account names and PS which is illegal in most countries. BTW the second one is the only way I see EBank failing fast and hard, I do see EBank falling apart over time as its a monster with all the work that the people do for free(don't tell them its a game, they might quit). Staff members get paid ISK, if I recall its 150 million per month with the potental of up to a 500 million bonus.
Polly Prissypantz Dingleberry Appreciation Society	Posted - 2008.11.17 06:45:00 - [22] eBank = Biggest. Ponzi scheme. Ever. Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it. It may not happen today, it may not happen tomorrow, but it will happen. Enjoy your ISK while you still have it, suckers.
Stealing Honest	Posted - 2008.11.17 07:01:00 - [23] Edited by: Stealing Honest on 17/11/2008 07:01:02 How much isk was stolen in the last Bank Scam? Wasn't it 700 billion or so? How maybe GHSC members are working thier way into this one?
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.11.17 07:02:00 - [24] Originally by: LaVista Vista Runs on the bank makes me cry Just get a bucket and prepare for the diarrhea of ISK that's about to come out My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.11.17 07:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Polly Prissypantz It may not happen today, it may not happen tomorrow, but it will happen. Enjoy your ISK while you still have it, suckers. Its interesting people said the same thing as we reached our 50b landmark, then our 100b landmark, then our 500b landmark. Further, these same people were absolutely certain that 1 trillion isk would be our scam point. Like come on, it's a huge number and can't be topped!!. But wait, we are now moving towards 1.5 trillion at a high pace and will keep going in that direction. Usually the naysayers or ones saying we will scam are those who are scammers, teenagers or people without morals. People who would backstab their friends for personal gain in an instant. I don't pirate, I don't hide my mains and alts (search Ricdic ingame) and myself and the EBANK team see a far bigger picture than some fairytale endgame scam which would in turn cause a person to quit Eve anyway. A lot of those who have done large scams have quit Eve. Not because of personal shame but simply because there was nothing else to do. They had (in their minds) won Eve. PvP was no longer fun as loss wasn't laced with fear and adrenaline. Mining, missions, trading was pointless as they had more cash than they could ever need. So, they quit Eve. Some were stupid enough to attempt to sell on EBAY. Their rumored 700b scams may have netted them enough to buy a 1997 Toyota Corolla before CCP shut them down. A scam is not an achievement in Eve. Proving every naysayer wrong is the true achievement. Unfortunately the only time we will ever be able to truly prove our legitimacy will be the day we close shop and repay all customers. Therefore, we just keep on chugging along, we focus on brand awareness, consistency and quality of service.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 07:56:00 - [26] Originally by: Jacob Mei Staff members get paid ISK, if I recall its 150 million per month with the potental of up to a 500 million bonus. That was true for the first year. We are reworking that to make it participation based. But yes, it's fundmentally right so far. It's subject to change however. The standard payout will be lower. We don't want to risk the integrity of the bank if we pay out too much ISK in wages
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 07:58:00 - [27] Originally by: Polly Prissypantz eBank = Biggest. Ponzi scheme. Ever. Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it. It may not happen today, it may not happen tomorrow, but it will happen. Enjoy your ISK while you still have it, suckers. Ponzi scheme? WHAT? Have you seen our annual report? We have people working with 8 characters doing work for EBANK in order to make ISK. You can even see what we have invested ISK into if you look on the forum. It's really not hard to find. Also, tell the people whom we have given out loan to, that it's a ponzi scheme.
All Knowing Eyes of Justice	Posted - 2008.11.17 08:02:00 - [28] Originally by: Stealing Honest Edited by: Stealing Honest on 17/11/2008 07:01:02 How much isk was stolen in the last Bank Scam? Wasn't it 700 billion or so? How maybe GHSC members are working thier way into this one? Wait, how are they working their way into this one? Simple, they're already there :D Don't you know the main director is a Tyraxx alt? :)
Trebor Locke Gallente Round Table Enterprises Leather Rose Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.17 08:02:00 - [29] Edited by: Trebor Locke on 17/11/2008 08:05:04 In economics, you have every right to be scared. There is no way you can assure total trust in the EBANK system. With this in mind, according to modern economic theory, the lack of trust makes it too much of a danger to invest in. Anyone who has been to an ECON 101 class would recognize this problem. You can test it by throwing a little money in and then getting it back but, even with that, the EBANK shouldn't have gained this much trust in the first place. There is no form of insurance in case of loss (even though Ricdic has stated he could only obtain 9% of the funds if he decided to steal). The 9% possible loss stated would actually be a huge hamper on whoever wants their cash. The reason? Because the EBANK (Like the REAL BANKS in REAL LIFE are having right now) would simply collapse on itself as it would have to (to keep good faith) report to its customers that ISK was stolen (or for the real banks, that the money they said they had didn't exist because of faulty policies). What happens as a result? You have a financial collapse. Everyone, to assure their money is safe, would make a withdrawl from the EBANK before it could recover (As what happened on the stock market) and it would either hurt for business or go away completely with debt owed to its customers (who are promised their ISK back as a result of the EBANK agreement). The lesson i'm trying to get through? EIB made off with hundreds of billions of isk doing the EXACT same operation. Have a nice day :) -------------- CEO of Round Table Enterprises Chairman of the Leather Rose Syndicate Your friendly economic management and trade orginization.
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2008.11.17 08:03:00 - [30] Originally by: ramification It's worth pointing out that EBank's interest rate of 3%/month is tiny compared to the amounts you can get by investing the same isk in normal trading. That's not to say it's a scam, just that they're obviously in business for the same reason that real banks are in business. It has almost no effort needed though. Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points. A.SEC is recruiting

LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 08:07:00 - [31] Originally by: Stealing Honest Edited by: Stealing Honest on 17/11/2008 07:01:02 How much isk was stolen in the last Bank Scam? Wasn't it 700 billion or so? How maybe GHSC members are working thier way into this one? They say it was 700bill. But it was hugely overextragated. It was more like 70bill. I addressed the whole recruitment thing. Even if GHSC does make it into the ranks of EBANK, they can't do harm unless they become a teller, in which case they can get away with 20bill at very max. Only Mr. Horizontal and I have access to the live server. So there's no way they can harm us. That's assuming they get in, in the first place. We know the RL identity of most, if not all, people in EBANK. At least it's true for anybody who 1. Handles ISK(Tellers, we have 3) 2. Programmers(Mr. H and I, we have another one who doesn't have the live server password and all his code is audited).
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.11.17 08:08:00 - [32] Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: ramification It's worth pointing out that EBank's interest rate of 3%/month is tiny compared to the amounts you can get by investing the same isk in normal trading. That's not to say it's a scam, just that they're obviously in business for the same reason that real banks are in business. It has almost no effort needed though. Aye, not to mention, with a 100 million you get a 3 million interest/month, you COULD get that from popping one BS, but, it's free isk.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 08:09:00 - [33] Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: ramification It's worth pointing out that EBank's interest rate of 3%/month is tiny compared to the amounts you can get by investing the same isk in normal trading. That's not to say it's a scam, just that they're obviously in business for the same reason that real banks are in business. It has almost no effort needed though. We do however had an overhead with dealing with people. But we are here to provide services to people. Look out for our stock exchange and our pay-pal-like system which will make it completely safe to do transactions that has to do with third-party services
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.17 08:13:00 - [34] Originally by: Julius Rigel If you can't trust a pretend bank with your pretend money, how can you trust a real bank with your REAL money? I don't Only God gets credit and even then only if he provides 3 forms of identification.
Miz Cenuij	Posted - 2008.11.17 09:26:00 - [35] ebank coudnt possibly be a scam. LOL. Muppets. Seems to me we have been Down this road before... "Men are going to die... and i'm going to kill them"
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 09:35:00 - [36] Originally by: Miz Cenuij ebank coudnt possibly be a scam. LOL. Muppets. Seems to me we have been Down this road before... A thief believes everybody steals." - E.W. Howe The irony . Seriously, think about it
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.11.17 09:39:00 - [37] While a scam is always possible, I think there are two more likely ways in which it will all go **** up: - Ricdic goes loopy. I'm sure there are plans in place to protect against this but at the end of the day you can't really be sure. As an example, recently Ricdic wanted to put a large sum of ebank's money into one specific venture. In theory he couldn't do it by himself as multiple people are needed to get access to that large a portion of the funds. But by all accounts he whined and bullied the other directors and basically just went over their heads and did what he wanted. Ricdic says he only has access to 120b but it's clear from events earlier this year that he can get more. Now just imagine he did the same thing, only this time the investment was fictitious and he ran off with the money. - Investments go bad. It's public knowledge that ebank uses the funds they have to invest and make more money. What would happen if they had a large number of eggs in one basket which was ruined by some nerf or something out of their control. For example, let's imagine they were engaged in large-scale manipulation of the snake implants market right before this recent speed nerf, and the nerf came along without any warning. It's not inconceivable that the bank would go down the toilet. So, ebank suffering from a scam that they can't cover is highly improbable. But ebank going broke through mismanagement or internal grief is plausible. It all hinges on 'no single person can access more than x percentage of the NAV of the bank'. LVV would have us believe that x is a fairly small number. But anyone familiar with the circumstances surrounding Shar Tegral's resignation from the board would realise that some members of the board can actually access far more than x if they really want to. It's still the most reliable place to put your ISK in Eve, but there's still a number of ways it could all go bad very quickly.
ouroboros trading Gallente Medics On Fire	Posted - 2008.11.17 09:40:00 - [38] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Miz Cenuij ebank coudnt possibly be a scam. LOL. Muppets. Seems to me we have been Down this road before... A thief believes everybody steals." - E.W. Howe The irony . Seriously, think about it that's very similar to 'you can't scam an honest man'. Funny thing is a lot of people just don't know what honest actually means (it's that an honest person knows everything the scammers do, and could do it every bit as well; they simply do not employ such methods, and is not 'honest' out of their own ignorance)
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 09:46:00 - [39] Originally by: Tiirae It all hinges on 'no single person can access more than x percentage of the NAV of the bank'. LVV would have us believe that x is a fairly small number. But anyone familiar with the circumstances surrounding Shar Tegral's resignation from the board would realise that some members of the board can actually access far more than x if they really want to. It's still the most reliable place to put your ISK in Eve, but there's still a number of ways it could all go bad very quickly. It does happen from time to time that Ricdic gets too much ISK on hand, especially when we do advert campaigns like we did this weekend. But Ricdic has been very reliable in regards to raising a flag in case that happens. We are however looking at how we can avoid risk. Right now one of the thinks being discussed(Still at very very early stages) is that we move the single point of deposits and spread it. For instance, we have discussed making it so that you can deposit to 3 different characters(Our 3 tellers), which will all be linked up to our API checker). This has the benefit that, if the user is careful, he can have his ISK all accounted for on our web-page inside 20 minutes . I don't handle ISK with EBANK. If EBANK does scam, I'm going down with the boat if we can't recover. So it's of course in my best interest to make sure that we keep afloat. And we are actively always seeking to migrate ISK and make it as fault-proof as possible.
Mal'ol Soddo	Posted - 2008.11.17 09:51:00 - [40] Originally by: ouroboros trading that's very similar to 'you can't scam an honest man'. Thats always bugged me too, I've known far too many people who have made a living out of doing just this.

ouroboros trading Gallente Medics On Fire	Posted - 2008.11.17 10:08:00 - [41] Originally by: Mal'ol Soddo Originally by: ouroboros trading that's very similar to 'you can't scam an honest man'. Thats always bugged me too, I've known far too many people who have made a living out of doing just this. well my definition of honest in these topsy-turvey times is of someone who can but doesn't, it's a laudable quality that you don't have simply by being ignorant or innocent, or for fear of being caught (that's just too easy); it is earnt :) however, yes, honest people can be scammed, but as always exceptions prove the rule.
Mal'ol Soddo	Posted - 2008.11.17 10:26:00 - [42] Originally by: ouroboros trading but as always exceptions prove the rule. And thats another one that bugs me, the exception disproves the rule, these sayings struck me as backing of "My mate down the pub says", "My old Mum used to say" and "I heard it from my friend's uncles's pizza boy's neighbour". Its like saying light is an electromagnetic wave, except when you filter it through a pink elephant, they it becomes custard. But its ok! The exception with the pink elephant proves it electromagnetic waves!
Daquaris Caldari Novus Aevum Transport and Industries Novus Aevum	Posted - 2008.11.17 10:29:00 - [43] Originally by: Julius Rigel If you can't trust a pretend bank with your pretend money, how can you trust a real bank with your REAL money? Because in real life, if a bank CEO ran off with everyone's money, they'd quickly find them selves in a traditional, federally managed, 'pound me in the ass' prison, on their way to having a VERY uncomfortable decade or so? (Well, maybe fairly comfortable, depending on who, and the connections involved :)) In eve, the VERY worst a CEO can expect, is some very ignorable angry evemails, maybe a lulz-filled forum thread, and, MAYBE (probably?) being hunted down and losing a couple ships that they can at this time, comfortably afford (Altho, a smart scammer would take the ISK they stole, turn it over to a new account, and, buy many months/years of free game via GTC / PLEX's, and suffer -ZERO- punishment). The 'authorities' will (and, in pyramid schemes, investment scams that look very similar to this, etc) not intervene. At all. There is quite simply no reason on earth not to steal all the money at a certain point, and, every reason to do so. C'mon, let's be honest with ourselves, if you had let's say.... 3 tril in the corp coffers, in front of you, and, no real deterrent to keep you from running off with it... wouldn't you? That said, nothing ventured, nothing gained... No reward without risk, etc... Sooner than later, it'll probably come crashing down. The person either controlling the alts, as in several similar corps I've read of will find themselves without time to play, or something, or, as above, someone will run off with everything. If it is a scam, it's probably still in the phase, where it'll be profitable to the depositors. If not, should be good interest :) (Also, the 'no interest' accounts, when EVE gives every player, corp, and alliance the same, for free is a HUGE red flag, by the way). Given the above, I think I'll try it out for a bit... Short term at least. How long has this thing been in business, anyhow? I don't see that mentioned.... well, anywhere? Is this run by a corp, or, a couple/few/several basically unattached individuals? Not trying to crap on your cake, sorry if it came off that way
Daquaris Caldari Novus Aevum Transport and Industries Novus Aevum	Posted - 2008.11.17 10:31:00 - [44] Originally by: Tiirae It's still the most reliable place to put your ISK in Eve, but there's still a number of ways it could all go bad very quickly. Actually, isn't your wallet the most reliable place in EVE to put your ISK?
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.11.17 10:54:00 - [45] Originally by: Daquaris Originally by: Tiirae It's still the most reliable place to put your ISK in Eve, but there's still a number of ways it could all go bad very quickly. Actually, isn't your wallet the most reliable place in EVE to put your ISK? I dunno about your wallet, but mine is the worst place to put money if you want to keep it :)
Daquaris Caldari Novus Aevum Transport and Industries Novus Aevum	Posted - 2008.11.17 10:57:00 - [46] Originally by: Tiirae Originally by: Daquaris Originally by: Tiirae It's still the most reliable place to put your ISK in Eve, but there's still a number of ways it could all go bad very quickly. Actually, isn't your wallet the most reliable place in EVE to put your ISK? I dunno about your wallet, but mine is the worst place to put money if you want to keep it :) Hah, VERY true. Still, if I put money into my wallet, I'm the only one that can go on spending sprees with it
Gojyu Ever Flow Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:03:00 - [47] The way I look at it is this. You put a billion isk in ebank. You trust them not to steal your money (although there are no rules to stop them doing this). In return, you get 15 million isk a month, less than an average level 4 mission a month. I might have been willing to invest in ebank, but let's get real, that much risk for that little reward makes no sense
Polly Prissypantz Dingleberry Appreciation Society	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:06:00 - [48] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Originally by: Polly Prissypantz It may not happen today, it may not happen tomorrow, but it will happen. Enjoy your ISK while you still have it, suckers. Usually the naysayers or ones saying we will scam are those who are scammers, teenagers or people without morals. People who would backstab their friends for personal gain in an instant. Sorry, but I don't buy the whole 'insinuate that any critic must be of ill-repute themselves' defense. And don't get me started on the whole 'blame the children' thing. Teenagers. Pfft. Quote: I don't pirate, I don't hide my mains and alts (search Ricdic ingame) and myself and the EBANK team see a far bigger picture than some fairytale endgame scam which would in turn cause a person to quit Eve anyway. A lot of those who have done large scams have quit Eve. Not because of personal shame but simply because there was nothing else to do. They had (in their minds) won Eve. PvP was no longer fun as loss wasn't laced with fear and adrenaline. Mining, missions, trading was pointless as they had more cash than they could ever need. So, they quit Eve. Some were stupid enough to attempt to sell on EBAY. Their rumored 700b scams may have netted them enough to buy a 1997 Toyota Corolla before CCP shut them down. A scam is not an achievement in Eve. Proving every naysayer wrong is the true achievement. Unfortunately the only time we will ever be able to truly prove our legitimacy will be the day we close shop and repay all customers. That's all well and good, but that's also what any other confidence scammer would say. Why would they say anything else? Also, I'm not attacking personal character or trustworthiness. My issue is more with the fact that Eve is [mostly] anonymous internet entertainment. As such no one really has enough invested in it to always remain reliable and trustworthy. As you pointed out yourself, previous large-scale scammers have quit afterward, but where you see causation, I see only correlation. I think it's more likely (and I think one of the scammers stories even says as much) that they may not have even had malicious intent to begin with, but they reached a point where they had no more interest in Eve - no more emotional/intellectual investment in it, so scamming and ripping off a bunch of faceless victims of their imaginary currency suddenly became a much more acceptable thing to do. If you think that yourself or your directors are immune from this, then I suggest you have a good hard think about it.
Seth Ruin Minmatar Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:09:00 - [49] Originally by: Daquaris (Also, the 'no interest' accounts, when EVE gives every player, corp, and alliance the same, for free is a HUGE red flag, by the way) It's much easier for them to handle deposits this way. Characters, AFAIK, can have any number of checking and/or savings accounts (when you could still open them). It just makes more sense to handle transferring the isk from the general "no interest" account to where you actually want it via the web site. I don't think EBANK actually thinks they're doing us a favor by having no-interest accounts. It's more for technical reasons as far as I can tell.
Seth Ruin Minmatar Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:13:00 - [50] Originally by: Polly Prissypantz My issue is more with the fact that Eve is [mostly] anonymous internet entertainment. Not so anonymous for Mr. Charlie Eriksen of Denmark, I think.

LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:14:00 - [51] Originally by: Seth Ruin Originally by: Daquaris (Also, the 'no interest' accounts, when EVE gives every player, corp, and alliance the same, for free is a HUGE red flag, by the way) It's much easier for them to handle deposits this way. Characters, AFAIK, can have any number of checking and/or savings accounts (when you could still open them). It just makes more sense to handle transferring the isk from the general "no interest" account to where you actually want it via the web site. I don't think EBANK actually thinks they're doing us a favor by having no-interest accounts. It's more for technical reasons as far as I can tell. Correct. The account without interest is the default account we use for any kind of transactions that happens towards accounts. For instance, when we pay back bonds, pay wages, people transfer ISK between accounts, etc., they end up in the account without interest. There's different variables we have to take into consideration due to our limits on accounts, so we play it safe. There is no limit on the amount in the interest-free account, so it's a good place for transactions to happen towards in all cases.
Polly Prissypantz Dingleberry Appreciation Society	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:14:00 - [52] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Miz Cenuij ebank coudnt possibly be a scam. LOL. Muppets. Seems to me we have been Down this road before... A thief believes everybody steals." - E.W. Howe The irony . Seriously, think about it "Sorry, but I don't buy the whole 'insinuate that any critic must be of ill-repute themselves' defense." - P. PrissyPantz, 5 minutes ago
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:15:00 - [53] Originally by: Polly Prissypantz Sorry, but I don't buy the whole 'insinuate that any critic must be of ill-repute themselves' defense. And don't get me started on the whole 'blame the children' thing. Teenagers. Pfft. Originally by: Seth Ruin Originally by: Polly Prissypantz My issue is more with the fact that Eve is [mostly] anonymous internet entertainment. Not so anonymous for Mr. Charlie Eriksen of Denmark, I think. Oh hai I happen to be a teenager as well. Oh the irony
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:18:00 - [54] Originally by: Polly Prissypantz Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Miz Cenuij ebank coudnt possibly be a scam. LOL. Muppets. Seems to me we have been Down this road before... A thief believes everybody steals." - E.W. Howe The irony . Seriously, think about it "Sorry, but I don't buy the whole 'insinuate that any critic must be of ill-repute themselves' defense." - P. PrissyPantz, 5 minutes ago I'm sorry if I'm offensive to you. I responded to Miz specifically(Hence that I quoted him) by quoting a guy who said something once upon a time, due to the fact I know it fits exactly. If you don't happen to know, Miz is "famous" for scamming people.
Daquaris Caldari Novus Aevum Transport and Industries Novus Aevum	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:23:00 - [55] Originally by: LaVista Vista Correct. The account without interest is the default account we use for any kind of transactions that happens towards accounts. For instance, when we pay back bonds, pay wages, people transfer ISK between accounts, etc., they end up in the account without interest. There's different variables we have to take into consideration due to our limits on accounts, so we play it safe. There is no limit on the amount in the interest-free account, so it's a good place for transactions to happen towards in all cases. Meh. The wallet is also no interest, and, I can use it whenever I want, without a fee after X per day/month/week/year. This isn't like real life, where, a bad bad man can be waiting around the corner and steal your wallet. Sell me on this Why do I want to drop a heap of cash into a no-interest account, that I can access a few times a month? Near as I can tell, there is next to no direct benefit to the consumer.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:26:00 - [56] Originally by: Daquaris Meh. The wallet is also no interest, and, I can use it whenever I want, without a fee after X per day/month/week/year. This isn't like real life, where, a bad bad man can be waiting around the corner and steal your wallet. Sell me on this Why do I want to drop a heap of cash into a no-interest account, that I can access a few times a month? Near as I can tell, there is next to no direct benefit to the consumer. I don't think you quite got the point. We aren't telling people to have ISK in the no-interest account. We have it SOLELY for technical purposes, which will be even more important when our stock exchange and third-party services launch. You don't want to drop cash into a no-interest account unless you use the stock exchange or third-party services. But those aren't even released yet.
Daquaris Caldari Novus Aevum Transport and Industries Novus Aevum	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:29:00 - [57] Edited by: Daquaris on 17/11/2008 11:30:01 Ninja post blank I didn't read well.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:32:00 - [58] Originally by: Daquaris Edited by: Daquaris on 17/11/2008 11:30:01 Ninja post blank I didn't read well. To address the question before the ninja edit: Yes, it is the default account your ISK ends up in. Everybody has a 1,5% by default. But in order to decrease the amount of possible bugs that could happen and decrease the complexity of our deposit code, we went with the no-interest account being where all ISK ends up by default. So yeah, people do have to move the ISK themselves. But well
Polly Prissypantz Dingleberry Appreciation Society	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:33:00 - [59] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Polly Prissypantz Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Miz Cenuij ebank coudnt possibly be a scam. LOL. Muppets. Seems to me we have been Down this road before... A thief believes everybody steals." - E.W. Howe The irony . Seriously, think about it "Sorry, but I don't buy the whole 'insinuate that any critic must be of ill-repute themselves' defense." - P. PrissyPantz, 5 minutes ago I'm sorry if I'm offensive to you. I don't recall saying I was offended. I'm sorry if you were incapable of understanding me. See what I did there? Quote: I responded to Miz specifically(Hence that I quoted him) by quoting a guy who said something once upon a time, due to the fact I know it fits exactly. If you don't happen to know, Miz is "famous" for scamming people. Not famous enough, apparently.
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:34:00 - [60] Originally by: Polly Prissypantz Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Originally by: Polly Prissypantz It may not happen today, it may not happen tomorrow, but it will happen. Enjoy your ISK while you still have it, suckers. Usually the naysayers or ones saying we will scam are those who are scammers, teenagers or people without morals. People who would backstab their friends for personal gain in an instant. Sorry, but I don't buy the whole 'insinuate that any critic must be of ill-repute themselves' defense. And don't get me started on the whole 'blame the children' thing. Teenagers. Pfft. Actually, by naysayers I mean the ones who automatically determine that EBANK is a scam like yourself. You aren't a critic, your mind is made up. The definition of a critic : "a person who tends too readily to make captious, trivial, or harsh judgments; faultfinder." You werent finding fault with EBANK, you were placing your opinion as fact. My definition of a critic would be the post made by Tiirae. Whilst he exaggerated a lot of the points he made he still did have some valid points there. Quote: That's all well and good, but that's also what any other confidence scammer would say. Why would they say anything else? Agreed, hence going back to my other point. It's impossible to convince everyone without any doubt that EBANK is legitimate. All we can do is continue doing what we are doing. Unless you know of a way to allow people to be 100% confident in the legitimacy of EBANK? Quote: My issue is more with the fact that Eve is [mostly] anonymous internet entertainment. As such no one really has enough invested in it to always remain reliable and trustworthy. Agreed, hence why the EBANK foundations are based on multiple people having smaller loads on their shoulders. We all know that there can be a cap for almost anyone where they may decide to walk away with the funds. Our job as a collective is to ensure that doesn't happen by continuing to find ways to limit people's exposure to large amounts of funds. Quote: no more emotional/intellectual investment in it, so scamming and ripping off a bunch of faceless victims of their imaginary currency suddenly became a much more acceptable thing to do. If you think that yourself or your directors are immune from this, then I suggest you have a good hard think about it. Sure, always possible. Hence why we have a large batch of staff on hand to ensure there's always someone to hand the reigns too, or someone to pick up the slack if another finds their interest in Eve waning. Really, this all boils down to the fact that we do absolutely everything in our power to ensure all of the above scenarios and many many more don't happen. In the event one or more do happen we have already discussed ways to combat those scenarios. There is really nothing more that can be done. We work to the best of our abilities within the parameters provided by CCP. One of the interesting things here is that plenty of people are quick to make their decisions on why they wouldn't invest however almost none have suggested ways to resolve these issues. Why? Because its already being done.

Polly Prissypantz Dingleberry Appreciation Society	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:41:00 - [61] Originally by: Ricdic Originally by: Polly Prissypantz Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Originally by: Polly Prissypantz It may not happen today, it may not happen tomorrow, but it will happen. Enjoy your ISK while you still have it, suckers. Usually the naysayers or ones saying we will scam are those who are scammers, teenagers or people without morals. People who would backstab their friends for personal gain in an instant. Sorry, but I don't buy the whole 'insinuate that any critic must be of ill-repute themselves' defense. And don't get me started on the whole 'blame the children' thing. Teenagers. Pfft. Actually, by naysayers I mean the ones who automatically determine that EBANK is a scam like yourself. You aren't a critic, your mind is made up. The definition of a critic : "a person who tends too readily to make captious, trivial, or harsh judgments; faultfinder." You werent finding fault with EBANK, you were placing your opinion as fact. My definition of a critic would be the post made by Tiirae. Whilst he exaggerated a lot of the points he made he still did have some valid points there. Since we're quoting from some dictionary, I've bolded the part that you seem to have missed, which my original comment falls squarely under.
Daquaris Caldari Novus Aevum Transport and Industries Novus Aevum	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:41:00 - [62] Originally by: Ricdic One of the interesting things here is that plenty of people are quick to make their decisions on why they wouldn't invest however almost none have suggested ways to resolve these issues. Why? Because its already being done. You have to understand, that this community has seen more than it's fair share of scams in this area, hence why a lot of us are probably going to lean pretty far on the skeptic side. I'm not sure that'll ever change, unless maybe a bank of some form is run by the NPC corps, or something (and, even then, I'm sure there would be problems / gripes / what have you).
Hoshi Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 12:02:00 - [63] Originally by: ouroboros trading well my definition of honest in these topsy-turvey times is of someone who can but doesn't, it's a laudable quality that you don't have simply by being ignorant or innocent, or for fear of being caught (that's just too easy); it is earnt :) however, yes, honest people can be scammed, but as always exceptions prove the rule. There is also another saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.17 12:31:00 - [64] Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: ouroboros trading well my definition of honest in these topsy-turvey times is of someone who can but doesn't, it's a laudable quality that you don't have simply by being ignorant or innocent, or for fear of being caught (that's just too easy); it is earnt :) however, yes, honest people can be scammed, but as always exceptions prove the rule. There is also another saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Fool you several times, then you must be an Eve player. I've seen banks come and go in Eve and frankly, there isn't a great deal a bank in Eve can do that my wallet can't. Except be used as a means to scam Screenshots and testimonials in this game mean nothing. I can easily edit a screenie of my wallet to show several trillion if I so wanted, I could easily get several other players to give blinding testimonials as to my credibility, (isk can buy so much more than ships etc in this game). IIRC, some time ago, someone posted a blog to explain how they pulled off the biggest scam in Eve's history, a few billion isk. There's always someone who's looking to make that look like pocket change. One of the rules I live by in Eve: In RL, I wouldn't trust a stranger with my cash. In Eve, I wouldn't even trust my own parents.
Khaeldon Golden Clover Astrogeologists	Posted - 2008.11.17 12:34:00 - [65] How does eBank enforce loans? I mean, people can loan ridiculous amounts of money and not pay it back... how does this work for eBank?
Silver Night Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.17 12:58:00 - [66] Originally by: Khaeldon How does eBank enforce loans? I mean, people can loan ridiculous amounts of money and not pay it back... how does this work for eBank? Collateral.
Cristl	Posted - 2008.11.17 13:24:00 - [67] Are there any hard currency rules to this from CCPs side? I mean, If the bank has 1.5 trillion ISK from other players, and at current market rates it's about 600 million ISK per 60-day timecode, then that's roughly 2500 60-day timecodes. These retail in the real world for US$35, so that's us$87,500. Am I correct in thinking that should the bank heirarchy decide to just scam and run, then they are free to sell the isk in-game, fully sanctioned by CCP, or would CCP step in and make redress? US$87,500 isn't peanuts guys. I like Eve and consider myself pretty honest, but split this sum up amongst say 10 people in on the deal and you have quite a real, non-internet-pixel type incentive to, well, steal from people.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 13:58:00 - [68] Originally by: Cristl Are there any hard currency rules to this from CCPs side? I mean, If the bank has 1.5 trillion ISK from other players, and at current market rates it's about 600 million ISK per 60-day timecode, then that's roughly 2500 60-day timecodes. These retail in the real world for US$35, so that's us$87,500. Am I correct in thinking that should the bank heirarchy decide to just scam and run, then they are free to sell the isk in-game, fully sanctioned by CCP, or would CCP step in and make redress? US$87,500 isn't peanuts guys. I like Eve and consider myself pretty honest, but split this sum up amongst say 10 people in on the deal and you have quite a real, non-internet-pixel type incentive to, well, steal from people. It would COMPLETELY be against the EULA, assuming it's even possible. And as far as I'm aware, it's not possible.
Confuzer Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.11.17 14:08:00 - [69] If you look at this it doesn't look good :P Quote: Total interest paid last day: 787,985,723.21 Total Interest Paid: 136,087,755,311.79 Total Interest Paid last 7 days: 5,385,392,449.53 Total Interest Paid last 14 days: 10,733,379,634.98 Total Interest Paid last 30 days: 22,652,571,888.43 Total Loan Interest Earned: 158,200,241,043.47 Total Interest Earned last 7 days: 4,946,884,501.60 Total Interest Earned last 14 days: 9,575,856,850.93 Total Interest Earned last 30 days: 17,510,141,374.84 Commission and Fees Earned: 3,205,818,170.86 Total Commission and Fees Earned last 7 days: 37,043,050.82 Total Commission and Fees Earned last 14 days: 51,062,454.09 Total Commission and Fees Earned last 30 days: 87,454,852.97 They pay more to Interest nowadays then they earn from loans. ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 14:12:00 - [70] Originally by: Confuzer If you look at this it doesn't look good :P Quote: Total interest paid last day: 787,985,723.21 Total Interest Paid: 136,087,755,311.79 Total Interest Paid last 7 days: 5,385,392,449.53 Total Interest Paid last 14 days: 10,733,379,634.98 Total Interest Paid last 30 days: 22,652,571,888.43 Total Loan Interest Earned: 158,200,241,043.47 Total Interest Earned last 7 days: 4,946,884,501.60 Total Interest Earned last 14 days: 9,575,856,850.93 Total Interest Earned last 30 days: 17,510,141,374.84 Commission and Fees Earned: 3,205,818,170.86 Total Commission and Fees Earned last 7 days: 37,043,050.82 Total Commission and Fees Earned last 14 days: 51,062,454.09 Total Commission and Fees Earned last 30 days: 87,454,852.97 They pay more to Interest nowadays then they earn from loans. Only 33% of our ISK is invested into loans. We have actually seen an increased demand for loans lately, meaning that we have had to turn down loans not to exceed those 33%.The rest is invested into other things. We make much more ISK than that. Look at our annual report.

Cristl	Posted - 2008.11.17 14:15:00 - [71] Sorry LaVista, to clarify: I don't mean directly sell the ISK in game for US$, but buy timecodes for ISK, and sell the timecodes out of game. Not sure on the legallity of selling the codes out of game, but it would surely be impossible to police. I mean, I could buy one for a friend for his birthday using my creditcard from, say, shattered crystal and that wouldn't get flagged right? It's just a string of characters - easy as pie to flog off.
Daquaris Caldari Novus Aevum Transport and Industries Novus Aevum	Posted - 2008.11.17 14:18:00 - [72] Originally by: LaVista Vista We make much more ISK than that. Look at our annual report. Speaking of annual reports, I kind of indirectly asked earlier, I suppose I'll ask more directly... How long have you guys been in operation?
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 14:24:00 - [73] Originally by: Daquaris Originally by: LaVista Vista We make much more ISK than that. Look at our annual report. Speaking of annual reports, I kind of indirectly asked earlier, I suppose I'll ask more directly... How long have you guys been in operation? We paid our first hosting bill on the 3/8/2007(3rd of August). At that time we were in beta-stages if memory serves me right. I don't know the exact date we launched, Ricdic probably nows. But about a years time at this point.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 14:26:00 - [74] Originally by: Cristl Sorry LaVista, to clarify: I don't mean directly sell the ISK in game for US$, but buy timecodes for ISK, and sell the timecodes out of game. Not sure on the legallity of selling the codes out of game, but it would surely be impossible to police. I mean, I could buy one for a friend for his birthday using my creditcard from, say, shattered crystal and that wouldn't get flagged right? It's just a string of characters - easy as pie to flog off. Right. It assumes that you can BUY the exact code from the gametime(Against the EULA) and then sell it on to somebody. It used to be possible, but CCP stopped that with the secure GTC system. But it would still be illegal and it would be very hard to find any amount of people who would buy that amount(2500) GTC's and sell us the codes.
Cristl	Posted - 2008.11.17 14:34:00 - [75] Ah, so if a player buys a code from another player for isk then he just has 60 days credited to his account? So he isn't sent an actual code? That makes sense.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 14:35:00 - [76] Originally by: Cristl Ah, so if a player buys a code from another player for isk then he just has 60 days credited to his account? So he isn't sent an actual code? That makes sense. Correct.
Kaiden Exeider Gallente Astrowork Systems	Posted - 2008.11.17 14:48:00 - [77] I'm sorry to sound like an ass, but this same thing has happened before with the Inter-Galactic Bank of Eve. which absconded with over 70 trillion of the eve community's money. the lesser known bank also operating then had a massive bank run and went bankrupt as a result. My question is, to which are these people descendant of? the con-artists or the more honest people trying their hand at running a bank. the Intergalactic bank, also ran a website, had excell spread sheets, earnings reports, the whole nine yards. and also assured the community that it was safe from thievery, or scams. this gentleman also made a confessional video detailing how he scammed and why. He also said he would attempt to do so again when the community has long forgotten about it. I am wary of EBANK because of precedent not for any personal misgivings. It has been done before and there is a history of it is there. If it truly is something of good. then fine, but I will be wary of such institutions until there is an in game mechanic to prevent a massive absconding with large amounts of capital. -Kaiden
Areo Hotah Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.11.17 14:54:00 - [78] Edited by: Areo Hotah on 17/11/2008 14:54:22 Originally by: Kaiden Exeider ...70 trillion of the eve community's money...
Kaiden Exeider Gallente Astrowork Systems	Posted - 2008.11.17 15:05:00 - [79] Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 17/11/2008 14:54:22 and what is that supposed to mean?
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 15:07:00 - [80] Originally by: Kaiden Exeider Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 17/11/2008 14:54:22 and what is that supposed to mean? That at the time of EIB, there probably wasn't even 70 trill in the whole game. They ran away with more like 70 Billions.

Kaiden Exeider Gallente Astrowork Systems	Posted - 2008.11.17 15:38:00 - [81] Edited by: Kaiden Exeider on 17/11/2008 15:41:24 no it was much much more then that. i think it was 700 billion. in either case it was a lot of money. In either case, LaVista, there was a precedent set, and people are wary of that history. My hope is that you and your bank truly are what you say you are. If however like the goons, the truth is a case of treachery, the eve community will not forgive. the same we have not forgiven the previous perpetrator. If you are for good will then I wish you luck in your endeavor. -Kaiden
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.11.17 15:50:00 - [82] no - it was claimed it was 700Bil but it was in reality much less than that - no one knows the exact figure [well no one who will tell] -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
Threv Echandari Caldari K Directorate	Posted - 2008.11.17 15:57:00 - [83] Edited by: Threv Echandari on 17/11/2008 15:58:51 To Kaiden...do you have linkage to the vidoes and exact detals of the scam? When I tried to check a thread that had it I received an access denied message (and Concord will be notified... ooohh scary) though there was some interesting commentary on the aftermath much of it very prescient of the discussion going on in this thread.. http://www.eve-search.com/thread/383700/page/1#2 To Ricdic and / or Lavista, I noticed that Ricdic went on Vay-cay recently but still continued to accept deposits even though he was not able to access the account. (unless I misread the post I still haven ot finished my coffee). since its against the EULA for anyone to have access to anothers account how did you X fer the money? (Note to other I am an Ebank client who had alot of money in there (by my standards) and don't have any problems with them playing with my virtual money. I eve eve mak another windfall I would probably stick it in there again, not the testimonials form unknown chars are are worth a damn but I'm just saying....Chalk up one satisfied customer) ---------------------------------------- Happiness is a Wet Pod
Kaiden Exeider Gallente Astrowork Systems	Posted - 2008.11.17 15:59:00 - [84] regardless of the actual figure, the point was that a institution was set up, created proof of its dealings, though very imaginative means, and even for a time was serious as to its purpose. eventually the heads of this institution decided to just take the money and run. and they did. the eve community cannot allow such a thing to repeat history. To clarify I am not making accusations against the Ebank in particular but to all such institutions that have been and will be founded in the future. the only way to ensure the security of such an institution is if a game mechanic much like the GTC secure trade was created. I would call for such a mechanic to be created and implemented at the earliest convenience. -Kaiden Kaiden Exeider - CSM Candidate
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.11.17 16:12:00 - [85] Originally by: Threv Echandari Edited by: Threv Echandari on 17/11/2008 15:58:51 To Kaiden...do you have linkage to the vidoes and exact detals of the scam? When I tried to check a thread that had it I received an access denied message (and Concord will be notified... ooohh scary) though there was some interesting commentary on the aftermath much of it very prescient of the discussion going on in this thread.. http://www.eve-search.com/thread/383700/page/1#2 To Ricdic and / or Lavista, I noticed that Ricdic went on Vay-cay recently but still continued to accept deposits even though he was not able to access the account. (unless I misread the post I still haven ot finished my coffee). since its against the EULA for anyone to have access to anothers account how did you X fer the money? (Note to other I am an Ebank client who had alot of money in there (by my standards) and don't have any problems with them playing with my virtual money. I eve eve mak another windfall I would probably stick it in there again, not the testimonials form unknown chars are are worth a damn but I'm just saying....Chalk up one satisfied customer) They use an API download that occurs every hour. Download hits, their program checks who has deposited and what and all accounts are then updated with the proper amount. This thread is the perfect example of how the internet lets people pull facts out of the sky (or ass in the case of some of the posters here) and spin them as fact. The funny thing about this whole thing is that it can be solved by putting a few isk into an EBANK account and letting it do its thing. No one is asking you to invest 6 billion right off the bat, hell one of the things they pride themselves on is that the minimum needed for opening an account is 1 isk. If you put all of your eggs (isk) into one basket (EBANK) and it turned out to be a scam then you get whatÆs coming to you. If your smart and only put in what you can afford to lose then if it does go south its not such a big deal. Eve is a pvp game, we players lose billions if not trillians of isk collectively each day simply by engaging in combat, losing isk to a game bank that might be a scam would at worst be no different than flying a megathron into a suicide battle for those who know how to invest in such a way as not to get burned.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.11.17 16:15:00 - [86] Originally by: Kaiden Exeider regardless of the actual figure, the point was that a institution was set up, created proof of its dealings, though very imaginative means, and even for a time was serious as to its purpose. eventually the heads of this institution decided to just take the money and run. and they did. the eve community cannot allow such a thing to repeat history. To clarify I am not making accusations against the Ebank in particular but to all such institutions that have been and will be founded in the future. the only way to ensure the security of such an institution is if a game mechanic much like the GTC secure trade was created. I would call for such a mechanic to be created and implemented at the earliest convenience. -Kaiden Head. There was only one guy with complete access to the funds and hes the one who took it all. EBANK on the other hand has several heads with limited acess to funds. If your going to make statements like this I honestly recomend you fact check first.
Emywn Vanya Caldari Redemption or Retribution Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.17 16:27:00 - [87] People seem to forget that if you can't afford to lose it don't invest it. Yes there is a possibility someone within EBANK scams, in fact a few people could scam and run. I don't think they could convince everyone to scam and run. And if someone does run off with 200 billion +, I personally wont be taking my money out of EBANK thus aiding the run on the bank and a possible collapse. The bank is a good thing, its not 100% safe but its as close as it can get to being 100% safe in eve. BTW for those who cant see the point of 1.5% interest.. try DBank at 10% interest (or so).... mind you they are far less proven than Ebank (sorry Dbank). ----------------------- The answer is 42
Threv Echandari Caldari K Directorate	Posted - 2008.11.17 16:32:00 - [88] @ Jacob Thanks for clearing that up, now that you mention it I do recall something about the API being used. As for me, I definitely don't have all my eggs in one basket but for times when I am going on vacation and can't manage my trades or just keeping a "rainy" day fund I have found E-Bank to be a good service. If one day there is some massive scam and all my ISK is wiped out I'll be miffed.. but no more so than the many times I have lost ships due to bad judgement/fitting/inebriation etc. ---------------------------------------- Happiness is a Wet Pod
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.11.17 16:57:00 - [89] Originally by: Emywn Vanya People seem to forget that if you can't afford to lose it don't invest it. Thank you! Honestly some of these posters seem to be of the mindset that you need to invest all of your ISK and if EBANK runs your SOL. I myself maybe have about 30% of my total liquid assets (ISK) with EBANK but thats really not a big deal either as my methods of income would easily see me through any scam (after all, its the way you make your money that is important, not the actual amount that you have). All these people that are saying EBANK is like EIB are must be seeing the word bank and scam to mean the same thing because if they did the slightest bit of research and compare how the two functioned you would see a completely diffrent structure in how things are done. Some of the major points in my opinion: EIB had 1 guy with complete access to the funds. EBANK splits it up. EIB encouraged you to put as much as you want, EBANK sets a hard cap as to how much you can put in. EIB only allowed you to withdraw at the beginning of the month, EBANK lets you withdraw whenever. Im sure there are many other diffrent points but its not my job to list them all, my point however is those who are saying EBANK is like EIB need to do some simple research before making such statements. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Dhejay Centrix Caldari The Wailing Doom	Posted - 2008.11.17 17:17:00 - [90] Originally by: Kaiden Exeider the only way to ensure the security of such an institution is if a game mechanic much like the GTC secure trade was created. I would call for such a mechanic to be created and implemented at the earliest convenience. -Kaiden This is missing the point isn't it? The whole beauty of a system as broad and freeform as the EvE economy is that people can set up things like EBANK with no actual game mechanic to regulate them. Are you seriously suggesting that there should be a "help I've been scammed" option under the petition system? If your money is stolen, so be it. What would you do in real life if the CEO of your bank closed every account and went to live in some nice friendly non-extradition country (or even bought one himself)? The only way to regulate a bank is for the institution to become so large that no one person or small group of people can steal the money. Many investors, many investments, AGMs for shareholders etc etc the bigger the better. If your own real life bank stole your money you wouldn't be able to appeal to the laws of physics to get a refund would you?

Wilma JugsJiggle	Posted - 2008.11.17 17:24:00 - [91] Originally by: Polly Prissypantz eBank = Biggest. Ponzi scheme. Ever. Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it. It may not happen today, it may not happen tomorrow, but it will happen. Enjoy your ISK while you still have it, suckers. This.
Dal Thrax Multiverse Corporation Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.11.17 17:31:00 - [92] I can think of one very good reason EBANK is not a scam. They have 1T ISK of someone elses isk to invest. Sure they could scam, but would you repay a loan to a scam? Lets stop and think for a minute. Say after all overhead EBANK turns a 9% monthly profit. Now the rule of thumb with compound interest is that your money will double in 70/percentage return (in this case 9) compounding periods. That means that Ebank is generating 1T in profits every about 7 months (assuming they're reinvesting). The EBANK principals are being paid VERY well not to scam. Dal Originally by: HEXXX In all seriousness; I think I made a miscalculation originally. . . We either need to fix this or fix our advertising.
Kaiden Exeider Gallente Astrowork Systems	Posted - 2008.11.17 18:47:00 - [93] First off Jacob Mei. I never said it was like EIB. I was mentioning it as a matter of history. you have listed how Ebank is different from EIB, this statement needs to be made, and reminded of to the people who visit the website. it should be part of the FAQ. take it head on and explain how and why it is not like EIB. On a further note, I have spoken to the heads of Ebank, and upon investigation. the Ebank is not a bank per se as much as it is like a Hedge Fund or a Trust fund. with out going into too much detail, Banks essentially CREATE money out of thin air. Obviously since the proprietors of the Ebank are players, they cannot do this. So calling them a bank is a bit of a misnomer. They are a corporation, that are essentially trading publicly in EVE, as opposed to privately(IE Corp Members). they take the money you give them to go into ventures that in turn those make money, this money they get from the purchases of those ventures are used to pay off the investors who have invested money into them. Also because money CANNOT be created in EVE by player interaction. Banks CANNOT exist in eve. the most any player corp can do is to become a hedge fund or trust of sorts that invests into actual production and manufacturing to make its money. but it essentially is providing a means for adding money to the pile while not counting it as apart of the deposits. IE. Selling ships to people, who trade their isk for the ship. Money is still not being created in respect to the overall ISK supply in the game. but that's neither here nor there. the point is upon further investigation, Ebank seems alright. -Kaiden Kaiden Exeider - CSM Candidate
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 18:55:00 - [94] Originally by: Kaiden Exeider So calling them a bank is a bit of a misnomer. I still disagree. Creating money out of thin air is not a property that defines a bank. It's just how banks happen to operate IRL. Look up "bank" in your dictionary or even wiki, and it will sound exactly like EBANK. However, comparing anything in EVE to RL is a waste of time.
Kaiden Exeider Gallente Astrowork Systems	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:05:00 - [95] Edited by: Kaiden Exeider on 17/11/2008 19:07:39 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Kaiden Exeider So calling them a bank is a bit of a misnomer. I still disagree. Creating money out of thin air is not a property that defines a bank. It's just how banks happen to operate IRL. Look up "bank" in your dictionary or even wiki, and it will sound exactly like EBANK. However, comparing anything in EVE to RL is a waste of time. Well you can disagree all you want, you still wrong. its not a point if view. How a bank operates and how your corp operates is not the same, hence your not a bank. Banks expand the money supply, by creating money through loans, by issuing credits to loanee's accounts but not pulling it from their reserves. You cannot do this in EVE, hence you are NOT a bank. You are an Investment Firm. -Kaiden
Threv Echandari Caldari K Directorate	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:21:00 - [96] Originally by: Kaiden Exeider Edited by: Kaiden Exeider on 17/11/2008 19:07:39 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Kaiden Exeider So calling them a bank is a bit of a misnomer. I still disagree. Creating money out of thin air is not a property that defines a bank. It's just how banks happen to operate IRL. Look up "bank" in your dictionary or even wiki, and it will sound exactly like EBANK. However, comparing anything in EVE to RL is a waste of time. Well you can disagree all you want, you still wrong. its not a point if view. How a bank operates and how your corp operates is not the same, hence your not a bank. Banks expand the money supply, by creating money through loans, by issuing credits to loanee's accounts but not pulling it from their reserves. You cannot do this in EVE, hence you are NOT a bank. You are an Investment Firm. -Kaiden Ok Without going into too much detail and using the US as an example ONLY the banks designated as Federal reserve banks (Agents of the Treasury Dept.) make money "out of thin thin air" or Fiat) as opposed to having a gold standard whereby the amount of "money you can print is limited by your gold reserves. Regular "non Federal Reserve" Banks cannot Make money out of thin air but operate like E-bank. So yes E-bank is more bank like.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:25:00 - [97] Originally by: Threv Echandari Ok Without going into too much detail and using the US as an example ONLY the banks designated as Federal reserve banks (Agents of the Treasury Dept.) make money "out of thin thin air" or Fiat) as opposed to having a gold standard whereby the amount of "money you can print is limited by your gold reserves. Regular "non Federal Reserve" Banks cannot Make money out of thin air but operate like E-bank. So yes E-bank is more bank like. Both yes and no really. Fractional reserve banking can create "money".
Aleria Angelis Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:29:00 - [98] Originally by: Dantes Revenge I've seen banks come and go in Eve and frankly, there isn't a great deal a bank in Eve can do that my wallet can't. Except be used as a means to scam I can see it comming in usefull if you've generated a large amount of ISK and don't have the time or means to do anything with it, ISK not doing anything is wasted ISK. Atleast with E-bank you can make it work for you even if only for small returns.
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:37:00 - [99] So I was curious about EBANK when it came to lending. I had a situation just before QR got deployed. The Orca BPO had capital corp hangars added to it at the last minute, so I bought the bpo and the additional minerals. Unfortunately I had over extended myself and did not have enough for the Orca BPO itself. I had a Nomad for sale on contracts, and luckily it sold at the last moment. But if it didn't, what would I have needed to do to secure a loan from EBANK to get the Orca BPO after the servers went live? -------------------
Threv Echandari Caldari K Directorate	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:44:00 - [100] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Threv Echandari Ok Without going into too much detail and using the US as an example ONLY the banks designated as Federal reserve banks (Agents of the Treasury Dept.) make money "out of thin thin air" or Fiat) as opposed to having a gold standard whereby the amount of "money you can print is limited by your gold reserves. Regular "non Federal Reserve" Banks cannot Make money out of thin air but operate like E-bank. So yes E-bank is more bank like. Both yes and no really. Fractional reserve banking can create "money". Thats part of the "details" I left out because it tends to make peoples eyes (mine included) glaze over. Since in Fractional Reserve Banking the money that is "Created" when giving out a loan, is technically canceled out when the the loan is repaid and as that article points out there is a hard cap on the amount that can be "created" in this fashion. As opposed to the fed which can literally "make more money" with out any of it being canceled out or hampered by the provisos of Fractional reserver Banking. (except in devaluation of the currency which another matter entirely) Should this be in the Markets Section? ---------------------------------------- Happiness is a Wet Pod

Kaiden Exeider Gallente Astrowork Systems	Posted - 2008.11.17 20:16:00 - [101] Edited by: Kaiden Exeider on 17/11/2008 20:19:09 Originally by: Threv Echandari Originally by: Kaiden Exeider Edited by: Kaiden Exeider on 17/11/2008 19:07:39 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Kaiden Exeider So calling them a bank is a bit of a misnomer. I still disagree. Creating money out of thin air is not a property that defines a bank. It's just how banks happen to operate IRL. Look up "bank" in your dictionary or even wiki, and it will sound exactly like EBANK. However, comparing anything in EVE to RL is a waste of time. Well you can disagree all you want, you still wrong. its not a point if view. How a bank operates and how your corp operates is not the same, hence your not a bank. Banks expand the money supply, by creating money through loans, by issuing credits to loanee's accounts but not pulling it from their reserves. You cannot do this in EVE, hence you are NOT a bank. You are an Investment Firm. -Kaiden Ok Without going into too much detail and using the US as an example ONLY the banks designated as Federal reserve banks (Agents of the Treasury Dept.) make money "out of thin thin air" or Fiat) as opposed to having a gold standard whereby the amount of "money you can print is limited by your gold reserves. Regular "non Federal Reserve" Banks cannot Make money out of thin air but operate like E-bank. So yes E-bank is more bank like. That is Incorrect. ANY Bank makes upon its accounting books, credits onto the accounts of its holders. When any entity, whether person or country makes a deposit into its account, 10% is immediately isolated and put into the reserves, the remaining money is considered 'Excessive Reserve' and there fore can be used as the basis for new loans. since the bank takes all of the money you gave them and not 10 percent, that total deposit becomes the 10% reserve for 9 times that amount. when a loan is taken, the money given to you is not taken out of the banks reserve. it is credited to your account but not from the reserve. the reason they can do this is that they have met the legal reserve requirement to do this, and there is a demand for such a loan. hence new money is created. this is known as the Loan/Deposit Money Creation Cycle. this goes for ALL banks, not just the private companies that work with the government and call themselves the federal reserve bank. the money that is created is always loaned out at interest. interest which must be paid back. But if all money is created from loans, and those loans are issued from banks who charge interest on that money. then where does the money to cover the interest comes from? The money supply created through loans would be known as the 'Principle', the money that was loaned out. so if all money is from a loan at one point or another, and eventually that loaned money must be returned to the bank, then where is the money for the interest? the answer is you don't pay it off and that money to pay the interest doesn't exist. For the amount of money you can ever have will always be less then the money your owe, since all you have is principle (P) and you owe interest(I) but your debt is (P+i). there fore the community, who uses this money supply can never be out of debt. Ebank doesnt do this, thank god. If It did, it would cause inflation of ISK and make every 1.00 ISK worth less and less as time went on. as the money supply grows the value of each ISK would go down, because of the supply of isk would be grown irrespective of the demand for its use. Since Ebank cannot create Isk this way, it is NOT a bank. it is an investment firm. -Kaiden
Threv Echandari Caldari K Directorate	Posted - 2008.11.17 20:39:00 - [102] @ Kaiden Well played... I will do something rarely done in Forums and that is "Cry uncle" and gracefully concede the point . ---------------------------------------- Happiness is a Wet Pod
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.11.17 20:42:00 - [103] #1 Rule of Eve: Trust NO one. Given an infinite amount of time EBank will be a scam. The managers just haven't realized it yet (hopefully this is the case). Remember: When they do (and it's only a matter of time) it's your fault. Unfortunately, Eve isn't designed to support player-led financial endeavors, such as banking institutions. No matter what they tell you there is ZERO fail-safe protection against corporate wrong-doings. You solely go on faith, trust, and history, such as reputation and previous bank behaviors (EIB anyone?). It's your money, your gamble. Good luck to all.
ramification	Posted - 2008.11.17 21:16:00 - [104] Edited by: ramification on 17/11/2008 21:25:13 Originally by: Dal Thrax I can think of one very good reason EBANK is not a scam. They have 1T ISK of someone elses isk to invest. Sure they could scam, but would you repay a loan to a scam? Lets stop and think for a minute. Say after all overhead EBANK turns a 9% monthly profit. Now the rule of thumb with compound interest is that your money will double in 70/percentage return (in this case 9) compounding periods. That means that Ebank is generating 1T in profits every about 7 months (assuming they're reinvesting). The EBANK principals are being paid VERY well not to scam. This. I'd rather keep that money myself, thanks. Ignoring all the fearmongering about EBANK possibly being a scam, it seems to me the only reason to hand over any sum of isk for 3% interest would be for the "let's play house" RPG novelty value that such a bank enables by providing a real-life service in-game, thereby making Eve seem more 'real'. Anyone with enough isk to make a useful monthly profit on 3% should be happy enough using the money to make more money themselves: that, after all, is the core of the game. The only other explanation is that the thrill of risking money by investing in a potential scam is itself the reason people are willing to open accounts. If I was an EBANK board member I'd immediately leave and start up a competitor offering a 5% rate just to start. Then we could have Finance Wars: the Battle of the Banks, with relatively victim-free forum drama, and everyone involved would be given a proper emotional motivation for not simply running off with their employer's assets.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.11.17 21:38:00 - [105] Quote: it seems to me the only reason to hand over any sum of isk for 3% interest would be for the "let's play house" RPG novelty value that such a bank enables by providing a real-life service in-game, thereby making Eve seem more 'real'. Really? Because that 3% is a far greater ROI than a nighthawk BPO. Last time I checked, the Nighthawk BPO went for about 50 billion which, given market prices, takes about 5 years to pay off. A 50 billion ISK sum deposited to EBank would 'pay itself' (i.e. double your money) off in 3
Miss KittyDelight	Posted - 2008.11.17 21:44:00 - [106] Another good use would be if you had to quit playing Eve for a few months. Before your Sub ran out, you could Xfer some of you ISK to E-bank and let it collect interest... Ghost Training your money if you will...
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.11.17 21:50:00 - [107] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Quote: it seems to me the only reason to hand over any sum of isk for 3% interest would be for the "let's play house" RPG novelty value that such a bank enables by providing a real-life service in-game, thereby making Eve seem more 'real'. Really? Because that 3% is a far greater ROI than a nighthawk BPO. Last time I checked, the Nighthawk BPO went for about 50 billion which, given market prices, takes about 5 years to pay off. A 50 billion ISK sum deposited to EBank would 'pay itself' (i.e. double your money) off in 3 Except you would never be able to dump 50 billion isk into EBANK. At present for new players all you can deposit is 6 billion max.
Seth Ruin Minmatar Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.11.17 21:52:00 - [108] Originally by: Arctur Ceti Given an infinite amount of time EBank is a scam. The managers just haven't realized it yet (hopefully this is the case). Given an infinite amount of time, everything is a scam. Originally by: ramification If I was an EBANK board member I'd immediately throw a self-righteous public tantrum and leave, to start up a competitor offering a 5% rate. My memory completely fails me at the moment, but there is a competitor offering higher interest amounts. Originally by: Kylar Renpurs A 50 billion ISK sum deposited to EBank would 'pay itself' (i.e. double your money) off in 3 Haven't done the math myself, but does that take into account the maximum balance limitation? EBANK Terms & Conditions 2.1.2: "... Checking balance limitations are 6 billion and savings are 3 billion."
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.17 21:52:00 - [109] In the end my biggest satisfaction will come from proving everyone wrong. For some history. About 16 months ago I made this post as my first ever EBANK related one. Anyone who wants too can have a read. Our biggest critics were the Market Discussions forum people as the EIB scam had affected a lot of them. You will see even from that first post discussing EBANK that our key point was to create an EIB done right. A few key differences between EBANK and EIB. 1) EIB website only came towards the end of EIB. The website didn't allow account balance checks, it simply gave updates on the corp. EBANK website has complete API automation, live audit tracking (stats page) and a very complex database running to support the bank (much like your RL bank website). 2) EIB was a 1 man operation. Cally/Dentara Rast ran it alone. No-one else could see how much he was holding, how much was out on loans, where money was being moved too, nothing. EIB had no-one checking the books or auditing the corporation until it was too late. EBANK has 4 different people with API data for EBANK Ricdic. They can see every single isk that comes in and goes out. Whilst this wont stop a scam it ensures that funds cannot be slowly siphoned out of the corp. 3) EIB had all different accounts with various withdrawal restrictions. EBANK acounts have no limits on withdrawals. We also have an average 6 hour process time for a withdrawal. Due to EBANK being run by multiple people in the event of one not being present others can still action your transactions without issue. EIB used a largely messy spreadsheet that was emailed around to other tellers when finishing their shifts, not an automated secure database. I did go on vacation recently and some may note nothing whatsoever changed within EBANK. Tellers were given the same amount of funds to complete their duties and Mr Horizontal (the head coder for EBANK, chairman and one of our most trusted staff members) was also given approximately 70b to ensure there were plenty of funds on hand. There was no account sharing or anything of the sorts. There was a backup plan in place whereby I could be emailed or sms'd by the staff and get access to a pc to wire more funds if necessary. As I have said in previous posts, security, consistency and quality are our key factors. Chances are if you have an idea it has been internally discussed a dozen times already. Our Terms and Conditions actually go heavily into detail regarding our security practices, ongoing audits, expansion limitations and the likes. If after reading all this information, our annual report, using our previous 13 months of good service as historical data & not being able to find a drop of dirt to bring up on EBANK, then I will say EBANK may not be for you. In the Eve-Mag article I was asked if I had a financial goal with EBANK. The honest answer was that we believed 1 trillion isk was the milestone. Frankly I don't care if EBANK holds onto 1 trillion or 100 trillion of customers funds. I want brand awareness, I want people to know of the EBANK name and to be able to discuss it openly. I want the initial reaction to EBANK to not be instant dismisal as scam but openness to the possibility that they are legitimate based on everything they have done to date. I would never tell people to invest blindly or even to invest if they aren't feeling comfortable. But at the very least throw 100 isk to EBANK Ricdic for an account and check out our features. Check out our player to player transfer options, loan application forms, interest generating accounts. We dont expect people to support EBANK 100% without question. We want people to be open to the possibility that EBANK is legitimate and has far bigger things in store for Eve than a petty scam.
Doctor Penguin Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.11.17 21:58:00 - [110] And ultimately, if you're really that bothered about the risk of a virtual bank in a virtual spaceship game ripping you off, you badly need to realise that there is something outside called a sun and things walking around out there called people.

ouroboros trading Gallente Medics On Fire	Posted - 2008.11.17 22:12:00 - [111] Edited by: ouroboros trading on 17/11/2008 22:14:06 It's much harder to create than it is to destroy; likewise the existence of EBank and it's thriving in a virtual economy, and the role it plays in making it quite not so virtual, is an achievement that casts it's destruction by petty theft and scamming into a wreckless act by which far more would be lost than gained. It is afterall greater than the sum of it's parts, and it would be a horrible shame to break it back down into them, and i believe the staff of evebank believe this to be true.
SugeR RusH Caldari Red.	Posted - 2008.11.17 23:24:00 - [112] be carefull with 'Ebank', anyone that remembers red moon rising will remember what happened last time with the last eve bank that stole trillions... invest carefully....
Gamer4liff Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 23:35:00 - [113] I'd put money in it if I didn't need every cent for blueprints. La Vista seems on the level to me.
ramification	Posted - 2008.11.17 23:49:00 - [114] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs 3% is a far greater ROI than a nighthawk BPO. Last time I checked, the Nighthawk BPO went for about 50 billion which, given market prices, takes about 5 years to pay off. The difference is that despite the possibility of Nighthawks being nerfed, a BPO is still a secure asset that can be re-sold and gives a relatively reliable rate of return. Short of CCP deciding to remove the Tech II BPO cap without compensating current BPO owners (which will never happen), no one who buys a Tech II BPO is risking losing 100% of their investment. They're also paying for guaranteed market share: the fact that there are only 5 Tech II BPOs of each type means that the level of competition is predictable. By putting isk into EBANK for "t" months, you're speculating that the 3% rate of return compensates you for BOTH the risk that for one reason or another something will happen that will prevent you from getting your isk back, AND for the fact that you can't use that money in a safer investment such Nighthawk production. You're looking at this as if EBANK has a 0% chance of being unable to return your balance. But for it to be a genuinely worthwhile investment, then isk * 1.03^t - isk * (1+Prob)^t would have to be greater than the isk you could make by other investments during the same time period (where Prob = probability of a scam, bank run or collapse per month). What the naysayers are pointing out is that the value of Prob is most likely not fixed: it may go up or down for any number of reasons as time passes and the total amount invested in the bank changes. It could also be affected by circumstances outside Ricdic's control, such as a scam in another bank that triggers a run on EBANK, just like happened in the aftermath of EIB's collapse. Just sayin'.
ouroboros trading Gallente Medics On Fire	Posted - 2008.11.18 00:12:00 - [115] titans blowin up outposts itt
ramification	Posted - 2008.11.18 00:14:00 - [116] Originally by: Seth Ruin Originally by: ramification If I was an EBANK board member I'd immediately throw a self-righteous public tantrum and leave, to start up a competitor offering a 5% rate. My memory completely fails me at the moment, but there is a competitor offering higher interest amounts. That's why it would be best for a member of EBANK's own board to quit and start a competitor while espousing greater love for the consumer. As Ricdic seems to realise, trust is everything, and EBANK won't get serious competition from anyone that can't establish a similar level of public recognition and trust. If there were several viable, well-known banks, the chance of a scam in one of the big ones taking them all down would be much lower.
ramification	Posted - 2008.11.18 00:15:00 - [117] Originally by: ouroboros trading titans blowin up outposts itt Lol, I'm such a carebear.
ouroboros trading Gallente Medics On Fire	Posted - 2008.11.18 00:29:00 - [118] Originally by: ramification Originally by: Seth Ruin Originally by: ramification If I was an EBANK board member I'd immediately throw a self-righteous public tantrum and leave, to start up a competitor offering a 5% rate. My memory completely fails me at the moment, but there is a competitor offering higher interest amounts. That's why it would be best for a member of EBANK's own board to quit and start a competitor while espousing greater love for the consumer. As Ricdic seems to realise, trust is everything, and EBANK won't get serious competition from anyone that can't establish a similar level of public recognition and trust. If there were several viable, well-known banks, the chance of a scam in one of the big ones taking them all down would be much lower. but what if the banks all started lending to each other and there was a global credit crunch in eve :O ebank does actually invest in numerous small schemes with higher returns run by players who simply can't manage a huge user-orientated operation as it is :)
Seth Ruin Minmatar Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.11.18 00:32:00 - [119] Originally by: ramification Originally by: Seth Ruin Originally by: ramification If I was an EBANK board member I'd immediately throw a self-righteous public tantrum and leave, to start up a competitor offering a 5% rate. My memory completely fails me at the moment, but there is a competitor offering higher interest amounts. That's why it would be best for a member of EBANK's own board to quit and start a competitor while espousing greater love for the consumer. As Ricdic seems to realise, trust is everything, and EBANK won't get serious competition from anyone that can't establish a similar level of public recognition and trust. If there were several viable, well-known banks, the chance of a scam in one of the big ones taking them all down would be much lower. EBANK and Dynasty Bank have an unofficially "good" relationship. (source)
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.11.18 00:33:00 - [120] Originally by: SugeR RusH be carefull with 'Ebank', anyone that remembers red moon rising will remember what happened last time with the last eve bank that stole trillions... invest carefully.... Just to clarify here. Eve Intergalactic Bank ran by Cally/Dentara Rast scammed around early 2007 iirc. The amount alleged to scam was 750 billion (definitely not trillions). As someone who was a bank teller for EIB and had access to the spreadsheets and records on file I can state that the only amount listed on the spreadsheets totalled 250 billion isk. When querying Cally on this he advised that alliance loans constituted the remaining 500 billion. I still question this, I don't believe he ever exceeded 250 billion isk. Still a considerably large amount but nowhere near the trillions I have quoted above. EBANK is the only public financial operation in Eve that has ever raised over 1 trillion isk in funding. The next closest was Fury Bank with around 600 billion. There is one other traditional bank in Eve (allows deposits/withdrawals, earns interest etc) and that is Dynasty Bank. They are relatively young (around 6-7 months old) and their CEO is a fair bit younger however they seem to be doing great so far. Currently they are sitting on 100 billion isk in funds and they do have much higher interest rates than EBANK. We both have very different structural setups. EBANK have chosen to cash in on their reputation as a solid base with heavy safeguards in place in return for the lower interest whilst Dynasty (whilst having some good safeguards) have offered higher interest in return for a slightly higher risk profile. The final bank is BMBE run by TornSoul. It isn't directly a bank, a public company that offers loans. You can't deposit or withdraw however. So there is some competition there. We prefer very safe investments and procedures in return for a lower than normal interest rate whilst Dynasty takes a slightly higher risk profile and restrictions on some withdrawals (CD's, bonds etc) in return for a better rate of interest. The Market Discussion forums here are fantastic for reading up about this kind of economic stuff, other public operations etc.

Smartstrike	Posted - 2008.11.18 00:38:00 - [121] I read everyones post and I think I'll trust em with a few hundred million. I always seem to have a couple of hundred million in my wallet not doing anything, at least it will be getting some interest. Anyway, I like the idea someone had, deposit your ISK before you go on vacation or whatever, let it grow. In a way it's better then just sitting there. At least if someone stole my CCP account login into my ISK would disappear and CCP doesn't give that back if that happens. At least with any ISK in the bank they would need my login on the bank as well. Which I'll make sure it's different.
Seth Ruin Minmatar Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.11.18 00:40:00 - [122] Originally by: Smartstrike Which I'll make sure it's different. Generally a good idea for anything. For example, third-party forums (like Scrapheap-Challenge or any corp/alliance forums) should NEVER use the same login info you use in-game. It's just too big of a risk of getting your account stolen.
TheVad Amarr Metalworks	Posted - 2008.11.18 00:54:00 - [123] There are very simple reasons why there are forces and reasons EBANK staff have no motive to scam: 1) EBANK Staff all have multiple billions (in some case 100's of billions) of their own isk and have nothing to do with the isk they already have. There is little motivation to scam and get more isk. What they primary value is their reputation (fame) and seeing something built that no one else had built before (achievement). 2) EBANK staff has done everything in game and the only thing interesting is creating the meta game (a business outside of Eve that can't be done within Eve itself). This is what drives the people behind EBANK. It's the challenge, its doing something that no one has done before successfully, the right way. 3) EBANK staff reputation, in some cases over 5 years, is not worth destroying for isk (no matter the amount). In other words (in the words of an economist following the law of marginal utility) isk is of less value to them then their Fame (reputation) or doing something first (achievement) Yes it can be hard to believe that some people donÆt value isk as much as you do and vice versa. 4) EBANK makes more money by being honest then not. Long term (like an online holdem site) taking their cut will outweigh stealing isk. Long term revenue (by them reinvesting) is greater then short term stealing. Bottom Line EBANK staff primary motivation is the actual meta business that has been created. Yes EBANK staff could get together and take the money, but isk is just not as valuable as fame and doing something that no one has done before. TheVad Project Manager & Chief Editor\| www.eve-bank.net
Badada	Posted - 2008.11.18 02:04:00 - [124] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic As someone who was a bank teller for EIB. So you were part of the EIB scam, and then started this new one. Are you the only member that was part of the last bank scam?
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.11.18 02:10:00 - [125] There were 3 tellers. Tolmar, Cally and myself. Cally ran the scam and basically screwed everyone over. Tolmar and myself went on to run our own IPO's and bonds for a while until I decided to create EBANK in every way superior to EIB. It's common knowledge from anyone back there that I was involved in EIB.
Chop Shop	Posted - 2008.11.18 03:11:00 - [126] Originally by: Julius Rigel If you can't trust a pretend bank with your pretend money, how can you trust a real bank with your REAL money? I like the way you put that! LMAO
Icarus Flame Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.18 04:00:00 - [127] Yeah, frankly, I don't see the directors scamming, ever. 1 trillion ISK isn't really all that much of a temptation if you think about it. Sure, you could buy 25 fully officer fitted nightmares and go blow them all up, but surely those kind of kicks wouldn't be worth the loss of reputation. Ricdic or LaVista would have no more reason to play EvE if they had 1 trillion ISK.
Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience	Posted - 2008.11.18 05:21:00 - [128] Unusually I've read the entire thread. Partly in disbelieve at the negativity and (thankfully)...bio break....(I dunno drink a beer and you end up emptying a six pack); where was this? Oh yeah. I have no ties with EBANK, but anything still going on after a year can usually be assumed to be a safe, STABLE AND FUNCTIONING entity. Which is important if you're investing your hard earned isk into a profit making scheme (for all players). LaVista Vista is a current CSM and is up for re-election, (good luck) - If anyone knows the value of trust it's a consistent eve player. Do you trust Veto to honour ransoms, well I'm thinking EBANK is on the same slide rule (opposite scale though :D ). What I'm trying to say is that ANY endevour within New Eden, has only one thing that can't be purchased or sold, and that is TRUST. It's developed through actions more than forum posts and it takes a lot longer to build up trust on a wider scale, for example Cribba - a character you don't assume would or needs to scam (kudos for the Veld tattoo!). Hmmm, those that are new to the game, welcome. There are characters and corps that are true to their word. Be it good or bad is only a matter of opinion. They have built this hard worn perception over many months and in most cases years. A month in Eve is a long time. So wear your feelings on your sleeve and stick with your characters persona - in the long term it will pay dividends. Sorry for the rambling nature of the post.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.18 06:14:00 - [129] Originally by: Icarus Flame Yeah, frankly, I don't see the directors scamming, ever. 1 trillion ISK isn't really all that much of a temptation if you think about it. Sure, you could buy 25 fully officer fitted nightmares and go blow them all up, but surely those kind of kicks wouldn't be worth the loss of reputation. Ricdic or LaVista would have no more reason to play EvE if they had 1 trillion ISK. Exactly. It's a bit like using cheat codes in games. It just ruins it. And I don't have access to any ISK either, mind you
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.18 07:21:00 - [130] Originally by: Aleria Angelis Originally by: Dantes Revenge I've seen banks come and go in Eve and frankly, there isn't a great deal a bank in Eve can do that my wallet can't. Except be used as a means to scam ISK not doing anything is wasted ISK. Not half as wasted as being scammed out of every isk you invested.

Meiyang Lee Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.11.18 08:32:00 - [131] While I don't have a massive amount of isk in Ebank, they've always been prompt when I do withdraw anything and interest is payed on a daily basis. Sofar they have been trustworthy and I don't see any reason not to trust them in the future.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.18 09:50:00 - [132] Originally by: Meiyang Lee While I don't have a massive amount of isk in Ebank, they've always been prompt when I do withdraw anything and interest is payed on a daily basis. Sofar they have been trustworthy and I don't see any reason not to trust them in the future. We aim to please
Rellik B00n Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.11.18 10:38:00 - [133] bottom line: run by players = open to scams. Doesnt matter how much fluff you wrap around it the baseline remains the same.
Heroldyn	Posted - 2008.11.18 11:32:00 - [134] well, one thing is certain. should ebank turn out to be a scam, it would be the definitive end to eve's allready starving secondary market.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.18 12:02:00 - [135] Originally by: Heroldyn well, one thing is certain. should ebank turn out to be a scam, it would be the definitive end to eve's allready starving secondary market. Yeah. That would be really awful. But EBANK scamming would tip over the secondary market for sure. It's not like it's all that healthy as-is.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.11.18 13:21:00 - [136] A question for E-Bank: I'm sure you get requests from asset free newbies, begging for huge loans, all of whom say "I'll pay you back!!!" Given that the majority of said newbies are probably kids with poor self discipline rather than actual scammers (although about equal risk regardless....) what do you tell them? Play nice while you butcher each other.
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2008.11.18 13:27:00 - [137] Having read the whole thread and done some background research I've noticed the following points: 1. The general perception and reported amount of the EIB scam is in the neighbourhood of 700 billion. 2. At the exchange rates at that time, that was somewhere between $100,000 to $130,000 dollars. So if you want to do a bigger scam, that again gets reported outside of EVE I'd set the target at $500,000 or 7 trillion ISK, whatever comes first. In order to get people to hand you that much money, the way EBANK operates isn't a bad approach. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
mamolian Madhatters Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.18 13:40:00 - [138] Edited by: mamolian on 18/11/2008 13:41:16 You would have to be a total ****ing moron to put your money into a Bank in Eve-Online, where the game mechanics offer no restitution to depositors, should the people running this scam do a runner. You need only look at all the 1 man alt corps going on about OMG dis b4nk has 100 trillion dollah in public monay! Tis totallly legit yo. -----------
Thudin	Posted - 2008.11.18 14:13:00 - [139] History repeats itself because people hope things are different. EvE Bank is a scam and it will take alot of players money in the end.
Trind2222 Amarr The Red Ring	Posted - 2008.11.18 14:23:00 - [140] Some question runners of ebank. If one day due to real life have want to quit as real life is more important then this game what will happen to ebank? if no one is to take care how will you close the bank? How do ensure that loan get paid back?

EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.11.18 14:26:00 - [141] Originally by: Thudin History repeats itself because people hope things are different. EvE Bank is a scam and it will take alot of players money in the end. Would you or anyone else like to put a wager on that? Happy to use Chribba as a middle man for that bet.
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.11.18 14:35:00 - [142] Originally by: Trind2222 Some question runners of ebank. If one day due to real life have want to quit as real life is more important then this game what will happen to ebank? We have a lot of staff members (15 in total). Over the past year I believe we have had 3-4 resign due to RL issues. Their positions have simply been taken by someone else. With enough solid staff on board we really have room to move and delegate responsibility rather than have it all resting on one persons shoulders. Scam isn't the only thing that can cause issues, burnout and the likes are very real dangers as well. To counter this we offer alternatives to our staff, those wanting a break can do so without issue. Whilst we have working relationships we have all become friends as well so aren't interested in putting undue strain on one another. As an example my wife and I have a second child on the way. It's quite likely I will need to reduce my Eve time in the future (6 months + down the track) so we are considering a new person taking over handling of EBANK deposits so I can take more of a back seat role in EBANK to allow myself more time to devote to family and work. Quote: if no one is to take care how will you close the bank? However unlikely it is that 15 staff would all resign at once and not be replaceable in this event the bank would close and those with deposits would be repaid. Loan customers would be contacted and requested to repay their debts within certain timeframes and those who didn't / couldn't would have arrangements organised to sell the collateral etc. Plus, EBANK has a unique reinvestment strategy in that all net profit is reinvested into the corporation. We all get decent salaries, customers get their interest and the EBANK corporation retains the rest for growth. In current form I believe our reinvested growth over last year building up from 0 isk to 1.2 trillion isk is approximately 75 billion. The above regarding loans is worst case if EBANK had to close. It's easy enough for us to stop taking deposits but forcing withdrawals on customers leading up to closure as the funds became available. Any closure would be announced months in advance to allow time for funds to be moved back to their correct location. I don't personally like the thought of EBANK closing as that means the staff have to manually action a total of about 6000 withdrawals . Split between 15-25 people this wouldn't take all that long but it's still a scary thought actioning 6,000 individual player donations
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company	Posted - 2008.11.18 15:34:00 - [143] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Split between 15-25 people this wouldn't take all that long but it's still a scary thought actioning 6,000 individual player donations I'd become active again for this to take part in the all-night cashout marathon. That would be good times. Also a nice thread we have here. =P
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.18 15:42:00 - [144] I would trust Ebank with every ISK I own in game, which is a lot more than most.... in fact I already do. KIA EVE Home KIA in game Public Channel "KIA" KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact Imperius Blackheart
Vixen Renault Gallente Association of Commonwealth Enterprises	Posted - 2008.11.18 16:39:00 - [145] I know I would happily trust EBank in the event that everyone that handled isk signed a customized agreement with CCP waiving their 'scam rights'. So if money was stolen, CCP would just track it down, remove it, and ban the accounts. While I doubt this would ever happen...it would instill a lot of trust in the organization.
ouroboros trading Gallente Medics On Fire	Posted - 2008.11.18 16:41:00 - [146] this thread is now about Chris Eubanks real IQ
Saffronique Epic Hyena Props	Posted - 2008.11.18 16:48:00 - [147] Look at all these fuggin celebs lending their rep to dis bank Need a god damn falcon punch in the vag tbh.
Fehz Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.18 17:51:00 - [148] So if I were to send in isk right now, what is the current rate of return? Any estimates on when you'll be doing CD's?
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company	Posted - 2008.11.18 18:07:00 - [149] Originally by: Fehz So if I were to send in isk right now, what is the current rate of return? Any estimates on when you'll be doing CD's? Checking accounts can hold up to 6 Billion ISK (one account per character), and the return there is 1.5%/month. CDs would be nice ...
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2008.11.18 19:23:00 - [150] For five pages there is a good number of people saying "People run off with ISK", although I don't deny the fact there is always a possibility of that happening like all investments if you choose to put trust in someone or an entity like EBANK only put in what you are comfortable with. Ricdic is the highest risk factor due to the central point of deposits. If he ran off with 150B it would be a poor scam, not even worthy of the record books. However even if he didn't care, just wanted to take the ISK and run, the others in EBANK wouldn't let that effect what everyone has worked toward. I've said this a few times, if in the event someone embezzled ISK from EBANK, it wouldn't be the customers getting scammed, it would indeed be EBANK.

EBANK SentryRaven Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.11.18 22:20:00 - [151] Originally by: KIAEddZ Edited by: KIAEddZ on 18/11/2008 16:41:57 I would trust Ebank with every ISK I own in game, which is a lot more than most.... in fact I already do. EDIT: I have met quite a few of Eve Bank guys in real life, they are a good bucnh of guys with a genuine passion for the game, AND any single man scam could only pick up about 6% of total asset, which is easily covered by their own monies... Safe as houses tbh. waves at Eddz
Banni Vinda Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.18 23:46:00 - [152] This is quite a refreshing change: A thread that has got to 6 pages, and is actually a decent discussion without (too much) trolling/flaming. :) I'm one of the EBANK Directors. I'm not an anonymous alt. One of the most important things to me about EVE is the people I've met playing it over the past 4 years. Real people, many of whom I now call friends. Like LaVista Vista, I was at fanfest this year, and will almost certainly be there next year as well. If it were not for the fact that our staff is split across several continents, I'm sure even more of us could have made it to Fanfest this year. Maybe next year... Some people claim that everyone has a price. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. All the ISK in EVE would be useless to me if it cost me the friendships I have built up over the years. As Ricdic said above, the only point we can ever prove 100% that we are legitimate is the day we close down and all our customers withdraw their funds, and not a single person will be able to say they lost money to EBANK. (Apart from the ones who never opened an account, and so lost out on potential interest :p).
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2008.11.19 00:07:00 - [153] Originally by: KIAEddZ Safe as houses tbh. Houses were part of cause of the current global credit crunch... Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Ex Cruoris Libertas	Posted - 2008.11.19 09:24:00 - [154] Some of you may remember the older movies where bankers were portrayed in a less-than-favorable light. After spending some time working at a bank in rl, I can attest they had it right back then. Banks trick people out of their money. (read: scam) Sure if you read the fine print and follow all the rules then you won't pay any fees and fines. But the fact is the vast majority of banking income comes from fees and fines, so most people don't avoid them. They target the elderly, the under-educated, and those with habitually bad spending habits, and do their best to sell them banking products that will generate fees, fines, and penalty income later on. so yea, if EBANK is a bank, it's a bad thing. Do yourself a favor, if you already haven't, and find yourself a credit union (in real life). As far as eve goes, why on earth would you risk giving your money to someone for 3% interest... Seriously? That's like saying you can't go buy tritanium for 3.00 isk and sell it somewhere else for 3.09 isk. Onoes, too hard! If you do give ( or have given ) isk to EBANK you have no guarantee you'll get your isk back. They could easily use isk from the deposits to give back as "interest" to drive a false sense of security which would bring in MORE DEPOSITS... to the fella that said they have a TRILLION isk ... so they couldn't possibly be scammers or they would've already absconded with the isk... They could be spending it now... Depending on new deposits coming in to pay out interest on the existing deposits. If the cash cow is still producing, why kill it? WHy settle for a Trillion, when you could get 2 or maybe 3? Let it ride until the deposits no longer come in fast enough to cover the interest payments... And even then, send some apology letters, make up a story... we've over extended our investments... or we had a couple large customers cash out to buy a titan.. and please wait a few days extra for your interest ( that will one day not come ). I'm not saying EBANK is a lie. But you can't prove to me it's not.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.19 09:40:00 - [155] Originally by: Ris Dnalor Edited by: Ris Dnalor on 19/11/2008 09:27:25 Some of you may remember the older movies where bankers were portrayed in a less-than-favorable light. After spending some time working at a bank in rl, I can attest they had it right back then. Banks trick people out of their money. (read: scam) Sure if you read the fine print and follow all the rules then you won't pay any fees and fines. But the fact is the vast majority of banking income comes from fees and fines, so most people don't avoid them. They target the elderly, the under-educated, and those with habitually bad spending habits, and do their best to sell them banking products that will generate fees, fines, and penalty income later on. so yea, if EBANK is a bank, it's a bad thing. Do yourself a favor, if you already haven't, and find yourself a credit union (in real life). As far as eve goes, why on earth would you risk giving your money to someone for 3% interest... Seriously? That's like saying you can't go buy tritanium for 3.00 isk and sell it somewhere else for 3.09 isk. Onoes, too hard! If you do give ( or have given ) isk to EBANK you have no guarantee you'll get your isk back. They could easily use isk from the deposits to give back as "interest" to drive a false sense of security which would bring in MORE DEPOSITS... to the fella that said they have a TRILLION isk ... so they couldn't possibly be scammers or they would've already absconded with the isk... They could be spending it now... Depending on new deposits coming in to pay out interest on the existing deposits. If the cash cow is still producing, why kill it? WHy settle for a Trillion, when you could get 2 or maybe 3? Let it ride until the deposits no longer come in fast enough to cover the interest payments... And even then, send some apology letters, make up a story... we've over extended our investments... or we had a couple large customers cash out to buy a titan.. and please wait a few days extra for your interest ( that will one day not come ). But it will buy them a few more days or weeks and that might just net them an extra 20 billion or so scammed, eh? I'm not saying EBANK is a lie. But you can't prove to me it's not. Sorry. I'll be totally blunt here: You OBVIOUSLY haven't done your research.
Julius Rigel House Rigel	Posted - 2008.11.19 09:50:00 - [156] Originally by: Ris Dnalor He's a Chewlies Gum representative!!!!
SentryRaven Sentry Security	Posted - 2008.11.19 09:50:00 - [157] Edited by: SentryRaven on 19/11/2008 09:51:40 Originally by: Ris Dnalor I'm not saying EBANK is a lie. But you can't prove to me it's not. AFAIK, we could. :) We have logs of every teller transaction, of every deposit with EBANK Ricdic and even our projects could produce every log for sales/purchases or transactions taken there, if we asked for them in detail. Every investment we make during a year can be tracked down, there are 15 people in EBANK who are doing their very best to make sure everything is logged that can be logged. IF we wanted, we could lay open to you how every ISK of our annual profit came to be, however.... as you have worked with a bank in RL already, no bank would do that and neither are we intending to do that. I am sorry to hear that you are not convinced of EBANK being a legit and honest bank, but as it has been said previously: "If you don't trust it, don't give your money to it." There is plenty of opportunities to make more than EBANK's 1.5% interest per month with a little bit of wit, labor and endurance on the markets, however it is up to the players and our customers to decide how they let their ISK work for them. Either by themselves or by proxy... EBANK. Originally by: LVV Sorry. I'll be totally blunt here: You OBVIOUSLY haven't done your research. True as well.
Silver Night Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.19 10:03:00 - [158] Seems like there are more 1 man corp trolls saying it is likely to be a scam. But really, if you don't know if you would trust EBank, try doing the research and maybe talking to a few of the participants in the EBank channel before you come here and say things that make you look a bit foolish. I've played for 5 years, I'm the CEO of my corporation, and I'm lazy. I put my excess money in EBank so it does something while I don't need it for anything. I've already put in my time trading, manufacturing, ratting, missioning (9.3 faction standing, thanks), and now I PvP, and thanks in part to EBank, I don't need to take time out from that to grind for ISK. I've moved billions through EBank with no problem. It is a product for people who have money they aren't using. If I had a choice between 1% interest and having the money sit in my wallet, I would still send that money to EBank. I trust them more than I trust myself not to go on a spending spree.
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Ex Cruoris Libertas	Posted - 2008.11.19 10:05:00 - [159] showing me your logs and records doesn't prove anything. first, I would have no way of realistically verifying what you gave me was real. second, and more importantly, logs of what you've done with the isk mean nothing if you plan to steal it in 2 years from now once it can be converted into enough rl cash to retire upon (in rl). Of course I won't give you my isk, because I can make more isk with my isk than I would ever get from you in interest. That's really the point. You offer little in the way of interest, and absolutely nothing in the way of security. It's not your fault that you don't offer any security, eve simply wouldn't allow you to, even if you wanted to. Even if you are trustworthy, that can't be proven. The sad thing is that people will trust you. Just spend an hour in Jita and watch the people in local throw their isk away. If that still happens after 5 years to such an obvious scam, then what hope will people have of resisting something so well thought out as this EBANK? Even if you don't steal their isk, you're still giving them less of a return than they could make themselves... It would be easy to say they deserve what they will get... evolutionary economics! , but really, it is taking advantage of people on a fundamental level... and the end result is that a few people get a free ride... and thus the same type of behavior will be inspired in others. whichever. I won't besmirch your thread anymore. Let the marketing resume. I'm sure you'll do very well, and your wallets will get fat, regardless of whether you run a 'legitimate' bank or not... as if bankers are ever poor... tralala Ris Dnalor -- Quote: "Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are people who want crops without ploughing the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. The struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, or it may be both. But it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never has and it never will." -- FREDERICK DOUGLASS Lastly,
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.19 10:13:00 - [160] Originally by: Ris Dnalor first, I would have no way of realistically verifying what you gave me was real. So you don't think the EVE API is a trust-worthy source? Get out troll . Also, cashing our ISK for RL money is illegal. I doubt it's even possible anymore with the secure GTC trading.

SentryRaven Sentry Security	Posted - 2008.11.19 10:17:00 - [161] Originally by: Ris Dnalor Even if you don't steal their isk, you're still giving them less of a return than they could make themselves... It would be easy to say they deserve what they will get... evolutionary economics! , but really, it is taking advantage of people on a fundamental level... and the end result is that a few people get a free ride... and thus the same type of behavior will be inspired in others. Dear Sir, I think you are missing the point that our customers simply do not wish to use the money themselves, but rather have other people work with it. And of course, our interest rate is less than our ROI on our projects, otherwise there would be no point in running a business, would there? In any case, thank you for showing interest in EBANK and participating in the dicussion. We are keen to discuss our bank with its supporters as well as critics.
SSgt Sniper Gallente MAIDS	Posted - 2008.11.19 10:31:00 - [162] Originally by: Daquaris There is quite simply no reason on earth not to steal all the money at a certain point, and, every reason to do so. C'mon, let's be honest with ourselves, if you had let's say.... 3 tril in the corp coffers, in front of you, and, no real deterrent to keep you from running off with it... wouldn't you? No. Then again, I've spent my years in EVE trying to better those around me. Not Rip them off quick as I can.
ouroboros trading Gallente Medics On Fire	Posted - 2008.11.19 10:42:00 - [163] a question to ebank: do you facilitate secure 3rd party transactions (for a % of course)? for mothership/titan sales, gambling bets, duel wagers, etc? so many people are attacking ebank for it's potential to scam, something that's potentially inherant in everything and everyone, when infact Ebank's existance may actually make eve more secure. The rate of intrest may be minor compared to what an active trader makes (though most player traders enjoy no protection from loss by simply having massive capital), but if there is an additional featureset then putting money with Ebank may not be simply about a % :)
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.11.19 11:04:00 - [164] Originally by: ouroboros trading do you facilitate secure 3rd party transactions (for a % of course)? for mothership/titan sales, gambling bets, duel wagers, etc? I actually brokered a 70b transaction between two parties this morning. We are happy to consider these kinds of things when approached however we wont advertise it as a service. We have too much respect for Chribba to try and steal his business away. Quote: but if there is an additional featureset then putting money with Ebank may not be simply about a % :) As above we won't be doing it in 3rd party brokering. Instead we will be launching merchant services (think paypal) and a highly operational stock exchange.
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.11.19 11:26:00 - [165] Ebank Ricdic - could you edit your ingame bio so it say something useful ;-P i.e with hoy links to the bank etc...
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.11.19 12:36:00 - [166] also there are some character generated for Impsonating you Recdic i.e. EBANK RICDC EBANK Ridic so you may want to make sure about who people send isk to ...
EBANK SentryRaven Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.11.19 13:02:00 - [167] Originally by: RaTTuS also there are some character generated for Impsonating you Recdic i.e. EBANK RICDC EBANK Ridic so you may want to make sure about who people send isk to ... Thank you for bringing it to our attention, we will investigate and petition right away. ---- ------------------------------------- SentryRaven - Forum Manager
Imperius Blackheart Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.19 13:44:00 - [168] I've been an EBANK customer since early on in its formation, I consider some of its Directorship friends and Ricdic gave me a heads up when they started. I've made use of both their deposit and loan facilities and trust them completely for what its worth. People might complain that the interest is low but I often find myself with billions that I cannot utilise and I always make sure any spare ISK I'm not needing or I'm unable to use is placed in one of my accounts simply because it makes more sense than having it sit around not working for me and I recommend all my friends do the same. I'm of the opinion that if you have ISK your not using EBANK is the best place to put it. Imp.
TheVad Amarr Metalworks	Posted - 2008.11.19 14:20:00 - [169] Many of the nay sayers are missing the point that EBANK is meant for those looking for a passive investment (earning isk on their isk without working). EBANK, like other secondary market offerings (IPO's Bonds, etc), are all passive investment opportunities. Of course active money (money you invest into your own business) will produce greater ROI then passive investments. This is referring to the checking service it offers. Newer or less wealthy players may not realize that as your wealth grows, there is less and less things you can invest in and you find it very hard to reinvest your entire cash flow. Thus the secondary market exists to help people find ways to do this. Any passive investment will require trust on the individual or corporation youÆre investing in. EBANK just happens to be one of the less riskier secondary market investments and therefore the reason why they have so many customers. The risk level that people use in deciding to deposit money into EBANK is based off the reputation of the individuals running it, EBANKÆs track record, willingness to allow CCP and/or a trusted 3rd party auditor to audit the business, and the time invested to make the whole operation run (coders, tellers, loan officers, new letter development, PR, etc.. 1000Æs of hours have been and continue to be put into creating and running EBANK. . TheVad Project Manager & Chief Editor\| www.eve-bank.net
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2008.11.19 15:27:00 - [170] There is two things I say to people when they ask me "What is EBANK or why use it?" 1) EBANK is an entity that manages ISK to pay interest and itself at the same time. We make no bones about saying "Make ISK for itself" we have had between 70B and 120B profit made off the ISK people have deposited into EBANK. That's profit too, that's after considering all deposits and interest accumulated. The profit goes to things like scam recovery, if EBANK made an investment that turned out bad. We would use that profit to recover the lost ISK, bad loans and defaults, anything that causes EBANK to lose ISK. We also pay ourselves to manage deposits, no one can fault us for doing that. We have paid ourselves about 1/8th the total profit, the rest is toward growth and loss recovery. We still have about 70B on hand. The second thing I say is:- Don't see it as an investment, you'll always make more buying/selling trit in Jita. However, if you go on vacation, plan on not playing for a long time, have ISK you just can't use anywhere. Then EBANK is for that ISK, that's what you use it for. It's true we are going to offer a LOT more features in which people will use more often but at the moment it's just a place you can store ISK and get low return on. The most unfortunate thing of all is the only way to guarantee it's not a scam to those would think otherwise, is the day EBANK closes it's doors and returns all deposits with interest to the account holders. Call it whatever you like, but the day EBANK closes down and does just that you just have use your gut feeling. Don't let anyone sway you one way or the other. As an EBANK Director it's my job to represent EBANK and show the EVE community what we're about. We don't force anyone to use EBANK, all we can do is say what we stand for, what we do and how we do it.

Liranan M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2008.11.19 15:28:00 - [171] Edited by: Liranan on 19/11/2008 15:29:35 I read the 26 page report and I am impressed. For a scam you sure put a lot of effort into it. I should stop trolling COAD and read this and the market thread more often (COAD is fun sometimes). Can someone post the link to the EBank site please? I'm really tired and about to fall of my chair. I typed in 'EVE bank' in google and guess what the first link was? I am really tired and going to bed before I look like an even bigger fool.
Thudin	Posted - 2008.11.19 15:28:00 - [172] LOL, wow, this scam is gonna be good when it finally hits. Can't wait!
AkRoYeR Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.19 15:42:00 - [173] It is truly sad to see that people are still fooled even by the best of "legitimate" plans. They forget that this is a game made up of pirates.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2008.11.19 15:58:00 - [174] Originally by: Liranan Can someone post the link to the EBank site please? I'm really tired and about to fall of my chair. EBANK
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2008.11.19 16:19:00 - [175] Edited by: SencneS on 19/11/2008 16:19:18 Originally by: AkRoYeR It is truly sad to see that people are still fooled even by the best of "legitimate" plans. They forget that this is a game made up of pirates. Spoken like a true pirate. I've never really enjoyed going out and killing something. I am very much drawn to the Industrial side of EVE. Yes my toons training would have you believe otherwise... or would it... I have a motto for my "Main" the one I use to fly around in, run mission, explore etc. Never train for anything above a Battle Cruiser class hull, never train any Electronic Warfare that, jams, scrambles, disrupts or reduce tracking speed or turret range, even weber. This is my In-EVE Main (It claims old, however I did send the data to In-EVE, I wonder if it's because that was when I stopped training that particular character and am training an alt on that account.) As you can see I do not have any electronic warfare apart from one thing... Target Painters. And what does that do? Makes the target ship's Signature larger, all it does is help me hit the targets, it doesn't prevent anyone from doing whatever they would normally be able to do. Just because you don't play EVE any other way then being just a Pirate doesn't mean everyone else is exactly the same way. How very narrow minded of you.. Edit:- Fixed Link
Thudin	Posted - 2008.11.19 16:22:00 - [176] Edited by: Thudin on 19/11/2008 16:23:03 He is very narrow minded...invest your money in EBank now, you will get billions of ISK in return.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.11.19 16:24:00 - [177] For those who say its a Scam consider this for a moment: They have spent over 300 USD on the first year for their site out of their own pocket. They recieved donations for their site for the second year, again 300 USD so in total they have spent 600 USD on the site alone. Several of their representitives were at Fanfest spending their time handing out information about EBANK, consider the price of the round trip to iceland for some individuals. Every time someone or someones says its a scam they spend a great amount of time to explain in detail how things work. They could quite easily go the "be silent" route and not give any information. Lord knows they have repeated themselves several times already in this thread alone. They have been in service for over a year and have lost and brought in new people. Heck one individual from what I recall left on less than ideal terms with them and still said EBANK is not a scam (they could have easily said it was just for spite but they didnt). If this were a scam, they would have put 600 USD into the site and lord knows how much for the fanfest tickets, spent countless hours explaining in detail how their bank works to those who contantly call it a scam not to mention the hours spent building the program they use to read the API key and properly give out the revelant information, create the accounts and so forth. If you think all this time, effort and real world money is worth over one trillian split 15 ways in currency that has no monitary value what so ever (hell the icelandic dollar is worth more than ingame isk atm!) then to be honest your an idiot.
Thudin	Posted - 2008.11.19 16:30:00 - [178] So you think because someone spends hundreds of dollars on a game that they will not try to scam people? And I am the idiot...okay.
Emywn Vanya Caldari Redemption or Retribution Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.19 16:39:00 - [179] No, you are a troll Go away and pod yourself and save the rest of us from your genius
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.11.19 16:45:00 - [180] Edited by: Jacob Mei on 19/11/2008 16:46:06 Originally by: Thudin So you think because someone spends hundreds of dollars on a game that they will not try to scam people? And I am the idiot...okay. Money, effort and butt load of patience. The average scammer spends 15 USD a month and maybe a few days worth of time to scam someone out of their money. If EBANK were a scam they would have spent 600 USD on top of their subscription fees for their accounts and the entire group would have to be so commited to the scam to log on daily to take care of withdrawl requests. The amount of time, effort and everything in between to me does not show that all this work would be worth the price of having to abandon all their characters linked to EBANK (which is all the training time lost), have to start over with their rep and the effort put into making EBANK just so they can say "We stole 1 trillian isk, we won eve, now we have nothing to do."

Redbad Minmatar Mean Corp Mean Coalition	Posted - 2008.11.19 17:13:00 - [181] Edited by: Redbad on 19/11/2008 17:14:08 I need the Interest E-Bank pays me to be able to pay the crazy prices for minerals they manipulate. Hahahaha. edit: page 7 sniper.
TheVad Amarr Metalworks	Posted - 2008.11.19 17:28:00 - [182] Eve has both ethical and non ethical people and it can be hard to figure out who is which. ItÆs funny that most of us do not hesitate or question taking a cab ride and giving a complete stranger trust with our life. Or how real life credit companies give us credit (based on trust or our track record) and have zero recourse (just like in eve) if we default and /or declare bankruptcy. Some people are just plan pessimistic. I am sure 5 years from now when EBANK is still running, we will have some percentage of people saying itÆs a scam. This thread has exhausted itself. All sides have given their opinions. Now let the individual decide. TheVad Project Manager & Chief Editor\| www.eve-bank.net
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.11.19 22:07:00 - [183] As I said on Page 5 I am happy to enter into any bets using Chribba as a security. Want to bet 1 billion that EBANK won't scam in the next 12 months? 60 months? For those who are 100% certain that EBANK is a scam this is a good bet If you don't have the guts to take this bet you shouldn't be stating your own opinion (that EBANK is a scam) as fact.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.11.19 23:00:00 - [184] Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 19/11/2008 23:00:23 I'm still curious, just for comidy reading, what you tell loan applicants who have no clues and no assets...... Play nice while you butcher each other.
AkRoYeR Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.19 23:30:00 - [185] Edited by: AkRoYeR on 19/11/2008 23:30:11 Originally by: Sergeant Spot Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 19/11/2008 23:00:23 I'm still curious, just for comidy reading, what you tell loan applicants who have no clues and no assets...... They tell them their ISK is insured by BS.
AkRoYeR Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.19 23:31:00 - [186] Edited by: AkRoYeR on 19/11/2008 23:31:49 You are an idiot, but other than that I would say your absolutely correct, this is a scam that is being portrayed very well and will end up burning many people, just like the last one.
Tatianna	Posted - 2008.11.20 03:07:00 - [187] /bump, let's keep this one going to warn noobs away!
Tac Ginaz Gallente Coalition of Nations	Posted - 2008.11.20 03:27:00 - [188] You just need to convince me why I should trust you with a tremendous amount of isk to get 3% back whereas keeping it in my pocket has it 100% secure and the interest I miss out on isn't really something I cannot make in 1 hour in the game. Even if I had a trillion isk I still do not see the point of it. By then, I dont need more isk.. id be like chribba mining in a dreadnought for the fun of it. :) ------------------------------------------------- Re-Design Stealth Bomber Weapons!
mamolian Madhatters Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.20 06:49:00 - [189] So.. What large entity is using this scam to build their titans? -----------
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy	Posted - 2008.11.20 06:51:00 - [190] right here yo o/ Fallout thinks im cute! I think so anyway

LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.20 07:28:00 - [191] Originally by: mamolian So.. What large entity is using this scam to build their titans? It must be BoB, Shrike needs his titan's replaced. Amirite? To be serious: None. The argument relies on the fact it's even a scam, which it's not. And to my knowledge we haven't given out any loans for building titans.
Shadow Lightbringer Daedal Anomaly Zzz	Posted - 2008.11.20 07:38:00 - [192] I've technically been an EBank customer since the moment Ricdic came onto the Zzz Alliance chat channel and asked for some people to send some ISK to his bank character to help test out his new banking idea. I sent him a 1000ISK and then forgot all about it. When I did finally remember, the EBank website had been up and running for a little while and I visited it out of curiosity. To my surprise I found out I had a login, I set my password, and found that my measly little 1000ISK had been there the whole time, accruing interest in a checking account. To me, that shows a lot about the character of the organization, that they remember the people who threw a tiny amount of money in just to help test their early system. I now have a couple hundred million in EBank right now, and that will soon be growing to over a billion as I now have some addition ISK sitting in my wallet setting idle. In all likelihood, that amount will grow even larger once EBank rolls out their stock market system, which I am very excited about. I can say without any reservation that I completely trust EBank with every last ISK I drop into it. I am also confident that, if it should ever close, that I will receive all my ISK back because the guys who are behind it are some of the most reputable in EVE.
Tatianna	Posted - 2008.11.20 22:41:00 - [193] So what is stopping someone from infiltrating this "honorable" scam as you say and taking everyones ISK?
ramification	Posted - 2008.11.20 22:55:00 - [194] Originally by: Tac Ginaz You just need to convince me why I should trust you with a tremendous amount of isk to get 3% back whereas keeping it in my pocket has it 100% secure and the interest I miss out on isn't really something I cannot make in 1 hour in the game. Apparently lots of players in Eve have a lot of spare isk they literally can't find a use for. So they give it to another corp in return for a small monthly stipend they could earn in a couple of hours by some other method.
Imperius Blackheart Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.21 00:13:00 - [195] Originally by: ramification My impression is that you could pay back higher interest, but there's no reason to, as people are willing to invest for less ROI thanks to your reputation as a safe bet. In other words, you're capitalising on your trustworthy image to make more money. This just in, in a shock move today we are receiving reports that a business plans to make money. Now to return to our scheduled broadcasting. Is that a bad thing? As for injected back into the bank, a lot of the profit I imagine goes into ensuring they have security I would imagine as thats the most important thing for any bank (well should be, recent real life events such as lul subprime mortgages are really poor business) KIA Corp Recruitment Director, mail me for more info.
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.11.21 00:25:00 - [196] it isn't quite that high. We are currently meeting an profit margin of about 5.5-6% per month. Our interest obligations are about 2.15%. After salaries and writing down loan defaults we are injecting anywhere from 5-20b into the bank monthly. These are approximations while I holiday on the beach at Fraser Island. For accurate data see our Annual Report on our news on our site (about the 6th article down)
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.21 00:50:00 - [197] Originally by: ramification Edited by: ramification on 20/11/2008 23:42:28 Originally by: Tac Ginaz You just need to convince me why I should trust you with a tremendous amount of isk to get 3% back whereas keeping it in my pocket has it 100% secure and the interest I miss out on isn't really something I cannot make in 1 hour in the game. Apparently lots of players in Eve have a lot of spare isk they literally can't find a use for. So they give it to another corp in return for a small monthly stipend they could earn in a couple of hours by some other method. EDIT: just found this on the EBank board: Originally by: Ricdic EBANK's goal isn't just to be a financial monolith but to be a successful financial monolith. We have some reports that will come out showing our profitability usually wavers around the 6-10% per month mark so we are meeting obligations however we are also re-injecting capital into the bank which in turn increases that profitability and the long-term success chances of the bank. So EBank is currently earning ~8% per month on the money in the user accounts on top of what they pay back as interest. Their gross ROI is over 10%. That sounds about what I'd expect to be possible at the trillion-isk investment range. The 6-10% isn't paid back, it's "reinjected into the bank". Any EBank employees or customers able to define what that actually means? Doesn't that equate to around 100 billion per month? My impression is that you could pay back higher interest, but there's no reason to, as people are willing to invest for less ROI thanks to your reputation as a safe bet. In other words, you're capitalising on your trustworthy image to make more money. It's a business, not a charity.
ramification	Posted - 2008.11.21 03:00:00 - [198] Edited by: ramification on 21/11/2008 03:02:57 Originally by: EBANK Ricdic For accurate data see our Annual Report on our news on our site (about the 6th article down) Ah, got it. Your profits and interest payouts aren't shown on a per monthly basis, but for the 11 month period. As that time encompasses the opening of the bank and all deposits into it, you haven't been either paying interest or recieving ROI for the total over the entire year, but a relatively small proportion. Math hard.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.21 04:14:00 - [199] Originally by: ramification Edited by: ramification on 21/11/2008 03:02:57 Originally by: EBANK Ricdic For accurate data see our Annual Report on our news on our site (about the 6th article down) Ah, got it. Your profits and interest payouts aren't shown on a per monthly basis, but for the 11 month period. As that time encompasses the opening of the bank and all deposits into it, you haven't been either paying interest or recieving ROI for the total over the entire year, but a relatively small proportion. Math hard. Math apparently isn't the only thing that's hard. A quick eve-search will yield a few threads I posted over multiple months showing revenue and costs, broken down across multiple categories in a cash flow statement with accompanying commentary on that given month's growth and relevant activities. The annual report is a summary of those monthly reports in addition to providing a bigger and wider picture of EBANK's activities.
SentryRaven Sentry Security	Posted - 2008.11.21 10:35:00 - [200] Originally by: Tatianna So what is stopping someone from infiltrating this "honorable" scam as you say and taking everyones ISK? As stated before, the fact that the ISK lies not with a single person but is spread within multiple Staffers. If you get in, become a teller or loan officer, you would only have access to small portions of the ISK within EBANK, thus... you can't take everyone's money....

Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.21 13:03:00 - [201] Originally by: SentryRaven Originally by: Tatianna So what is stopping someone from infiltrating this "honorable" scam as you say and taking everyones ISK? As stated before, the fact that the ISK lies not with a single person but is spread within multiple Staffers. If you get in, become a teller or loan officer, you would only have access to small portions of the ISK within EBANK, thus... you can't take everyone's money.... Expanding on this... EBANK uses a fractional-reserve Banking model, as do all modern RL Banks. At any time, it has somewhere around 15% of it's value in actual cash. This is spread out over a few people, reducing individual exposure to roughly 5% of total value. Assuming a single person scammed (and it wasn't Ricdic), your looking at maybe a 5% loss. At the most, 10% or even 15%....and all of that is something the Bank was designed to recover from. Assets can be liquidated and pre-arranged private loans can be tapped to solve any solvency crisis. Granted, if every single person withdraw at the same time, we'd be sunk....but that's one of the reasons I pushed to have MORE accounts versus LARGER accounts. Having more accounts mitigates the risk of having a run on the Bank. Most of the Bank's design and controls were done with a risk based mindset. Besides the preventative steps (minimal exposure to funds) and the detective steps (frequent reporting), the operational risk and "scam" risks have been managed to the best of our collective abilities. By the way, I work for one of the largest accounting firms in the world in RL.
Tatianna	Posted - 2008.11.22 01:37:00 - [202] You can by no means really compare a "virtual" game to real life. This game is not subject to the penalties and punishment for scams as in the real world. Therefore I still submit that people are only setting themselves up for failure regardless of how "good" this may seem.
Reediculouhs	Posted - 2008.11.22 01:41:00 - [203] There are so many scams going on in just Jita alone it's almost annoying. How is it that experienced players with plenty of ISK to spare are suckered into something that at it's forefront seems legitimate, but could end up being the next biggest crime to hit EvE online!
Astorothe Aperture Science Industries	Posted - 2008.11.22 02:15:00 - [204] What a fantastic marketing thread - you can't buy this sort of publicity :) RPGN Gaming Network - Eve News, Gaming News, Forums & Community - Home of Aperture Science Corp [ApSci]
ramification	Posted - 2008.11.22 02:17:00 - [205] Originally by: Hexxx Math apparently isn't the only thing that's hard. A quick eve-search will yield a few threads I posted over multiple months showing revenue and costs, broken down across multiple categories in a cash flow statement with accompanying commentary on that given month's growth and relevant activities. You'll pleased to hear I'm not actually that interested in EBANK. I'm satisfied to know you're not literally screwing your entire customer base out of a hundred billion a month. But I have low expectations. In any case, I wish you the best of luck in your venture.
AkRoYeR Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.24 04:23:00 - [206] Originally by: Astorothe What a fantastic marketing thread - you can't buy this sort of publicity :) It's a rather juicy thread, seeing how they are actually justifying people investing in what will become a scam.
Gamer4liff Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.24 04:38:00 - [207] Originally by: AkRoYeR Originally by: Astorothe What a fantastic marketing thread - you can't buy this sort of publicity :) It's a rather juicy thread, seeing how they are actually justifying people investing in what will become a scam. Have you read the thread? The entire point is that even if it was a scam there is only so much a single person can take. Not to mention in the long term with the salaries the people are drawing in-game it would probably make more money to keep on with it.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.11.24 04:50:00 - [208] Quote: Have you read the thread? The entire point is that even if it was a scam there is only so much a single person can take. Not to mention in the long term with the salaries the people are drawing in-game it would probably make more money to keep on with it. And on top of that, while the amount of ISK they could scam would be a massive amount to you and me (maybe), for the amount of ISK these guys could earn without EBANK, it just wouldn't be worth the reputation hit. Improve Market Competition!
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.24 06:02:00 - [209] Originally by: Astorothe What a fantastic marketing thread - you can't buy this sort of publicity :) Enough alts and a few trolling classes, sure
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.24 06:05:00 - [210] Originally by: AkRoYeR Originally by: Astorothe What a fantastic marketing thread - you can't buy this sort of publicity :) It's a rather juicy thread, seeing how they are actually justifying people investing in what will become a scam. My name is priceless. Offer me 1 trill and I would tell you to **** right off. I might have been tempted if Dr. EyjoG offered me a position inside a true central bank of EVE; but not otherwise . The point is that it's much more profitable to keep legit.



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