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Where did the wrecking hits go? (PvE Related)

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Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.11.17 16:16:00 - [31] Has anyone else done any really testing one this issue, or is everyone just assuming that the sky is falling because the word "wrecking" no longer appears in the combat log? When I first read this thread I was concerned, lest there have been a stealth nerf to turret mechanics. Because it was late, I only had time for a quick test. As I stated, the damage output appears to be the same, it is just the flavor text that seems to have changed. Has anyone else bothered to test this further to see if there is in fact a change in damage output? Or is it just a matter of jumping on the bandwagon because you're not seeing the word "wrecking"?
Jennz	Posted - 2008.11.17 16:55:00 - [32] Well, wrecking hits for me would commonly be in the 4k+ range. I don't know whether on aggregate the DPS is the same but there is definitely an absence of "wrecking for" in combat logs, and nothing in the patch notes to indicate that there was a conscious decision to change wording. Either way we need some DEV clarification on this - either it's a bug and we're doing less DPS than we should be, or they've reworked the formula for the various hit qualities & damage multipliers. Both are equally significant and worthy of mention in the patch notes...
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.11.17 16:56:00 - [33] Given that I hardly ever used turrets before QR, I can't really say if I'm experiencing a change. However, a cursory look through of my combat logs shows I have not had a single wrecking hit as far back as my log goes (which for turrets is a few days). Seems I most get a "hit" and very rarely an "excellent" hit.
Rivur'Tam Fatality.	Posted - 2008.11.17 17:09:00 - [34] Tbh honest i have not noticed a drop in dps, But i would like to hear ccp anwser to this. If they have took away the wrecking to save lag whatever i'm not botherd but i will be ****ed if they have ninja nerfed dps. Good thread Op. .. I like teh secs and teh boobies
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2008.11.17 17:12:00 - [35] a few people have siad that since the patch they are noticing less damage anyway (and they wernt using grouping, didnt like it apparrently) i didnt think to ask weather that ment dps or less impressive hits
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.11.17 17:23:00 - [36] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 17/11/2008 17:24:58 Originally by: Jennz Well, wrecking hits for me would commonly be in the 4k+ range. I don't know whether on aggregate the DPS is the same but there is definitely an absence of "wrecking for" in combat logs, and nothing in the patch notes to indicate that there was a conscious decision to change wording. Either way we need some DEV clarification on this - either it's a bug and we're doing less DPS than we should be, or they've reworked the formula for the various hit qualities & damage multipliers. Both are equally significant and worthy of mention in the patch notes... Do you have anything quantitave on this? Are your best shots still 6x the damage of your worst shots? On my testing, I found that this was still the case, as it has had been prior to this patch. The only change that I noticed was that the flavor text had changed. Is it possible that the attributes of your targets have been changed, thus causing an appearent drop in damage? Have you down any refactoring to see how actual damage compares to theoretical damage?
Jennz	Posted - 2008.11.17 18:06:00 - [37] No, I haven't done any of that - yet. I was just commenting on the fact that I haven't seen wrecking hits in my combat log, like others. My point still stands I think - irrespective of whether or not the aggregate damage has remained the same, whether "wrecking" has just been renamed, or anything else - it's a significant enough change that there are people, like the OP and myself, who are uncertain or confused about the current state of affairs. If CCP were changing the damage formulas it should've been in the patch notes. If there is a bug that is stopping wrecking hits from occuring, then we need some sort of DEV feedback on it.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.11.17 18:27:00 - [38] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 17/11/2008 18:28:13 Originally by: Jennz If CCP were changing the damage formulas it should've been in the patch notes. If there is a bug that is stopping wrecking hits from occuring, then we need some sort of DEV feedback on it. I realize that. But we should not assume a huge rewrite of the turret system, when the only symptom is a change to the flavor text. It is unreasonable to expect dev's to comment everytime some claims they have found a bug, as more often than not things are working as intended the person just didn't know what was intended. Even when they find a bug, it is often not the bug they initially think that they have found. Yes, there should have been a comment in the patch notes saying that the flavor text has changed, even if that is all that was changed. However, before people go claiming that there is a bug that stops wrecking hits or changes the damage formula, they should test to make sure that there are no wrecking hits or that damage has in fact changed.
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:27:00 - [39] You know, I've been running missions in a Megathron ... I've notice the lack of wreckings, myself.
Lady Aja Caldari Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:30:00 - [40] Originally by: Solomon XI You know, I've been running missions in a Megathron ... I've notice the lack of wreckings, myself. guys find giant Secure Can... use it for testing. heaps of hp to test... infact i am going to test it now... i think a zeaot will take a while to kill a gsc.
Glacius Prime	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:39:00 - [41] No "wrecking" hits for me also... I grouped my weapons; PvE (missions) I think the text is displayed based on the average hit quality of all the weapons in that group. I donÆt dare to test with my weapons ungroupedà If we don't see "wrecking" even with them ungrouped, then we have a problem...
Vanthropy Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:59:00 - [42] this must be how they solved hitting outside of max range.. they simply removed wrecking hits, which weren't necessary for the rest of the game to function as intended. pretty smart of ccp. if no one is getting wrecking hits.. then everyone is :) and now there's no broken killmail whoring interceptors
Lady Aja Caldari Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.17 20:45:00 - [43] Originally by: Vanthropy this must be how they solved hitting outside of max range.. they simply removed wrecking hits, which weren't necessary for the rest of the game to function as intended. pretty smart of ccp. if no one is getting wrecking hits.. then everyone is :) and now there's no broken killmail whoring interceptors what kind of damage is folks getting? anything near like a wreckign hit? they may have changed the formuala... wrecking hits used to be triple damage.
Inara Subaka Caldari the united	Posted - 2008.11.17 20:55:00 - [44] I filed a bug report on this as follows: Quote: I have tried multiple times using optimal conditions to score a wrecking shot since the release of QR and have been unable to succeed. I was curious if there was a change that removed wrecking shots from the equation, or what the issue was. And was given the following response: Quote: Hi, wrecking shots were removed because of weapon linking. They will now be shown as an excellent hit. Aratoxi
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.11.17 21:24:00 - [45] Originally by: Lady Aja what kind of damage is folks getting? anything near like a wreckign hit? they may have changed the formuala... wrecking hits used to be triple damage. Which is exactly the hit size that I was getting on my earlier test. Hit ranges between 50% and 150%, with "wrecking" hits dealing 300% damage. Thus your strongest hits are 3x your base damage or 6x your weakest hits, which is what I was finding still happens. From my testing it appears that only the flavor text was changed, not the damage from the hits: as the bug hunter said, "They will now be shown as an excellent hit."
Kuzya Morozov Gallente L8L8L8	Posted - 2008.11.17 22:18:00 - [46] Yeah, neither me nor any of my corpmates have gotten wrecking shots in QR yet... (I asked them)
Lady Aja Caldari Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.17 22:34:00 - [47] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Lady Aja what kind of damage is folks getting? anything near like a wreckign hit? they may have changed the formuala... wrecking hits used to be triple damage. Which is exactly the hit size that I was getting on my earlier test. Hit ranges between 50% and 150%, with "wrecking" hits dealing 300% damage. Thus your strongest hits are 3x your base damage or 6x your weakest hits, which is what I was finding still happens. From my testing it appears that only the flavor text was changed, not the damage from the hits: as the bug hunter said, "They will now be shown as an excellent hit." thats not so bad then so long as its still possible to get x3 damage then all is ok in the world of turrets. I will have a look at what dange my tueets can do max and keep an eye out see what happens
Rake Mizar Tenth Legion Holdings Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.11.18 00:37:00 - [48] I would have figured this to be in the patch notes under 'spelling error corrections'.
Arazel Chainfire Dissolution Of Eternity Ethikos Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.18 05:12:00 - [49] Tested this with my nightmare on my domi (2 accounts). 250 shots, I got 2 excelent hits for around 500 damage (highest was 520) and lowest of 87. Most shots landed between 100 and 200 damage. Testing was done with tachyon nightmare at 1km from domi, both ships absolutely still. Highest shot was 5.9x the damage of the lowest shot in my test, and around 3x the damage of most of my normal shots (180 or so was the average). This means that even though there aren't wrecking shots anymore, there is still about a 1% chance of getting an excellent hit for 3x normal damage, or 6x lowest damage. Will continue test at later date. For now though... left 4 dead just came out... -Arazel
Jennz	Posted - 2008.11.18 05:21:00 - [50] "barely scratches" has disappeared as well, so on the basis of that and the bug report response posted above I guess CCP have reworked the hit quality formula. Still, would've been nice to have been told eh?
Mephistophilis Domination. Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2008.11.18 14:06:00 - [51] It's not just the text, there is definatly less dmg being delt. From my astarte a wreaking shot would be around 1200 and no hits are giving anything like that now
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.11.18 16:25:00 - [52] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 18/11/2008 16:33:59 Originally by: Mephistophilis It's not just the text, there is definatly less dmg being delt. From my astarte a wreaking shot would be around 1200 and no hits are giving anything like that now What is your setup? What are the resistances of your target? In order to get a wrecking shot of 1200 with an Astarte, I calculated that you would need max skills, 3x T2 Mag-Stabs, 2x 5% damage implants and Void/Faction Antimatar. Does your setup include all of that? You can calculate your wrecking shot damage out-of-game. So if there has been a change, it should be no trouble at all proving it. Saying that your wrecking shot damage was "round" some amount doesn't cut it when bug hunting. Originally by: Jennz "barely scratches" has disappeared as well, so on the basis of that and the bug report response posted above I guess CCP have reworked the hit quality formula. So far the formula looks the same as it has been for the past several years. It is just the flavor text that appears to have changed. We know how it should work. If it is not working like that now, it is easy enough to prove it by proper testing.
Lady Aja Caldari Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.18 17:20:00 - [53] guys to figure out max damage you get youre EXACT dam mod... times it by youre ammo damage... say youre damage mod for ease of point is a flate 15. ammo being used is EMP L so it looks like this... 10 x 36 ( em 20 + exp 16 ) = 360 base max damae no excellent shots or wrecking shots. wrecking shot would be 360x3= 1080 if you have not been getting effectively triple damage then wreckign shots are nerfed/bugged.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.11.18 17:48:00 - [54] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 18/11/2008 17:50:03 Originally by: Lady Aja if you have not been getting effectively triple damage then wreckign shots are nerfed/bugged. This! ...with the minor addition of correcting for your target's resistances. If your turret's damage modifier was 4.2, your ammo does 10th + 14ki, and your target has resistances of 20%th + 40%ki, then your wrecking hit would be 3 x 4.2 x ( 0.8 x 10 + 0.6 x 14) = 206.64. Find your damage multiplier by showing info on a fitted turret.
Bellicose Gallente PsyCorp Dirt Nap Associates	Posted - 2008.11.18 18:04:00 - [55] can they have changed them to excellent hits? becourse i did this 2 days ago [ 2008.11.16 16:04:30 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Ammatar Navy Tachyon Beam Laser places an excellent hit on Pleasure Hub Sentinel, inflicting 3574.1 damage. seemed kinda high too me for a non wrecking hit
Jennz	Posted - 2008.11.18 18:16:00 - [56] Originally by: Bellicose can they have changed them to excellent hits? becourse i did this 2 days ago [ 2008.11.16 16:04:30 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Ammatar Navy Tachyon Beam Laser places an excellent hit on Pleasure Hub Sentinel, inflicting 3574.1 damage. seemed kinda high too me for a non wrecking hit As mentioned previously it seems as if they have changed the hit qualities as "barely scratches" has disappeared as well. Seems like it's only "hits", "is well-aimed", "excellent" now (as well as "misses" obviously). There used to be a post on here a while back where someone actually worked out the percentage of hits that were in each category - I guess someone needs to do the same with the data we have now.
KhamEee Kazee	Posted - 2008.11.18 18:18:00 - [57] For me at least, the dps in the Kronos seem lower. I might be wrong, but I used to get a lot of excellent and wrecking hits (SS Tracking Comp, Tracking script + Tracking Rig). Did Recon 1/3 last night and it took me somewhat longer than before, and I even got lucky with the jammers. Again I could be wrong, but my missiontimes were very consistent, and they're slower now in the Kronos, then they were before QR.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.11.18 19:01:00 - [58] Originally by: KhamEee Kazee For me at least, the dps in the Kronos seem lower. One more time. There is no "seems" to be lower. Either it is lower or it is not. The chance-to-hit formula is well known. As is its relationship to damage. Wrecking hits accout for 1% of shots as long as you have atleast a 1% chance-to-hit. If you have less than 1% chance-to-hit, then all hits will be wrecking hits. Non-wrecking hits fall in the range of 51% to 50%+chance-to-hit. So if you have a 75% chance to hit, 25% of your shots will miss, 1% of your shots will deal 3x damage, the remaining 74% will be evenly spread between 0.51x and 1.25x. If you are not seeing as many excellent hits (those shots that deal 1.25x to 1.5x damage) then you should first and for most look at any changes that may have occured with relation to tracking. Perhaps look at the effect that the change in web stats has had on tracking? It would not be suprising for you to see higher angular velocities and therefore lower chances to hit., due to the fact that you are not webbing rats as strong as you were prior to the patch. You might want to adjust your tactics to compensate.
Durethia Black Plague.	Posted - 2008.11.18 19:24:00 - [59] Originally by: Ki Tarra You can calculate your wrecking shot damage out-of-game. So if there has been a change, it should be no trouble at all proving it. The original complaint wasn't the DPS of the wrecking shot, but the frequency of wrecking shots. In other words, it doesn't matter what the target resistances are, resistances never prevented a wrecking shot from occuring it only effected the amount of damage that registered as a wrecking shot. (If you have very high resists, people shooting you used to still get wrecking shots, it's historically trivial to see a wrecking shot of only 50-150 on a HAC with high resistances.) The fact that people are claiming they have gone the whole day and no one has a single wrecking shot logged is absolute, infallible and indisputable evidence, that something has changed. Which this "change" IS the concern of this thread. Primary worry is that turret based pilots might be concerned that their overall DPS is ruined, secondary worry is the fact we all enjoyed seeing the wrecking shots (we post the highest of them in our bios!). Again, the circumstances of the target really don't matter at all whether you get a wrecking shot. The only thing that should have changed, was the documented change saying that turrets would no longer register hits (including wrecking shots) outside of reasonable range (falloff + optimal). As long as a target can be hit, a wrecking shot should be possible. It would further seem that given optimal circumstances such as target sitting still, at optimal range, with substantial number of tries, that a wrecking shot should be rendered along a perceptive average comparable to past experience with receiving a wrecking shot. But, apparently, the amount of wrecking shots have dramatically changed from the last patch. I haven't seen a single wrecking shot myself either. "Excellent" shots were a dime a dozen, for a webbed stiff target Excellent shots were the overwhelming majority, it seems according to those within this thread, they are now rare. What is the problem?
Sean Faust Gallente Point of No Return Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.18 20:05:00 - [60] Originally by: Durethia Originally by: Ki Tarra You can calculate your wrecking shot damage out-of-game. So if there has been a change, it should be no trouble at all proving it. The original complaint wasn't the DPS of the wrecking shot, but the frequency of wrecking shots. In other words, it doesn't matter what the target resistances are, resistances never prevented a wrecking shot from occuring it only effected the amount of damage that registered as a wrecking shot. (If you have very high resists, people shooting you used to still get wrecking shots, it's historically trivial to see a wrecking shot of only 50-150 on a HAC with high resistances.) The fact that people are claiming they have gone the whole day and no one has a single wrecking shot logged is absolute, infallible and indisputable evidence, that something has changed. Which this "change" IS the concern of this thread. Primary worry is that turret based pilots might be concerned that their overall DPS is ruined, secondary worry is the fact we all enjoyed seeing the wrecking shots (we post the highest of them in our bios!). Again, the circumstances of the target really don't matter at all whether you get a wrecking shot. The only thing that should have changed, was the documented change saying that turrets would no longer register hits (including wrecking shots) outside of reasonable range (falloff + optimal). As long as a target can be hit, a wrecking shot should be possible. It would further seem that given optimal circumstances such as target sitting still, at optimal range, with substantial number of tries, that a wrecking shot should be rendered along a perceptive average comparable to past experience with receiving a wrecking shot. But, apparently, the amount of wrecking shots have dramatically changed from the last patch. I haven't seen a single wrecking shot myself either. "Excellent" shots were a dime a dozen, for a webbed stiff target Excellent shots were the overwhelming majority, it seems according to those within this thread, they are now rare. What is the problem? Nothing has changed in the formula or the way damaging/wrecking shots are calculated. The only thing that has changed is the NAME. Anything that WOULD have been considered a wrecking shot before now is called excellent, though the damage has NOT changed. The only thing that has been changed is that the WORD "wrecking" has been omitted, along with "barely scratches". The formula has NOT changed in a way that would affect damage, however. The reason theyre seeing lower overall DPS is because of the turret tracking changes that have decreased your chance to hit anything smaller than your OWN SIZED SHIP e.g. battleship guns firing on cruisers and battlecruisers now take a chance to hit penalty more severe than before, so you miss more often which equates to lower overall DPS and more time clearing missions.

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