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Where did the wrecking hits go? (PvE Related)

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Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.11.18 21:11:00 - [61] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 18/11/2008 21:13:29 Originally by: Durethia The original complaint wasn't the DPS of the wrecking shot, but the frequency of wrecking shots. The "problem" is that people seem to think that the word "wrecking" as any significance at all. A "wrecking" hit is one that hits for 3x the base damage, calculated as described in earlier posts. "Wrecking" hits will account for 1% of your shots as long as you have atleast a 1% chance to hit. This was true before the patch, and every test mentioned in this thread has found that it is still true after the patch. The problem is that ignorant people seem to be jumping to the conclusion that because the word "wrecking" is no longer appearing in the combat logs, that they are some how doing less damage than they were before the patch. The entire point of the post which you quoted, was to request that people upgrade their intellegence to a level that will allow them to look past the meaningless flavor text to see if there has been any meaningful change in the damage done. So far nobody has come foward to show that anything more than the flavor text has changed. Every test that has shown a moderate degree of understanding has found that turrets are working the same now as they did before the patch. Originally by: Sean Faust The reason theyre seeing lower overall DPS is because of the turret tracking changes that have decreased your chance to hit anything smaller than your OWN SIZED SHIP e.g. battleship guns firing on cruisers and battlecruisers now take a chance to hit penalty more severe than before, so you miss more often which equates to lower overall DPS and more time clearing missions. Not even this is true. There has been no indication of any change to turret tracking, nor your chances to hit smaller targets with turrets. Missiles were rebalanced, but not turrets. The only thing remotely related to tracking that has changed is the attributes of webs. This had particularly huge effect on the Kronos/Paladins which are/were using Domination webs. Prior to the patch a Kronos/Paladin with a Domination web had a 99% web effect. Now it will have a 75% web effect. That is a 25x difference in effectiveness. Go fit a pair of Gallente Navy webs any you will be back to near your previous effectiveness.
Lady Aja Caldari Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.18 21:55:00 - [62] Originally by: Sean Faust Originally by: Durethia Originally by: Ki Tarra You can calculate your wrecking shot damage out-of-game. So if there has been a change, it should be no trouble at all proving it. The original complaint wasn't the DPS of the wrecking shot, but the frequency of wrecking shots. In other words, it doesn't matter what the target resistances are, resistances never prevented a wrecking shot from occuring it only effected the amount of damage that registered as a wrecking shot. (If you have very high resists, people shooting you used to still get wrecking shots, it's historically trivial to see a wrecking shot of only 50-150 on a HAC with high resistances.) The fact that people are claiming they have gone the whole day and no one has a single wrecking shot logged is absolute, infallible and indisputable evidence, that something has changed. Which this "change" IS the concern of this thread. Primary worry is that turret based pilots might be concerned that their overall DPS is ruined, secondary worry is the fact we all enjoyed seeing the wrecking shots (we post the highest of them in our bios!). Again, the circumstances of the target really don't matter at all whether you get a wrecking shot. The only thing that should have changed, was the documented change saying that turrets would no longer register hits (including wrecking shots) outside of reasonable range (falloff + optimal). As long as a target can be hit, a wrecking shot should be possible. It would further seem that given optimal circumstances such as target sitting still, at optimal range, with substantial number of tries, that a wrecking shot should be rendered along a perceptive average comparable to past experience with receiving a wrecking shot. But, apparently, the amount of wrecking shots have dramatically changed from the last patch. I haven't seen a single wrecking shot myself either. "Excellent" shots were a dime a dozen, for a webbed stiff target Excellent shots were the overwhelming majority, it seems according to those within this thread, they are now rare. What is the problem? The reason theyre seeing lower overall DPS is because of the turret tracking changes that have decreased your chance to hit anything smaller than your OWN SIZED SHIP e.g. battleship guns firing on cruisers and battlecruisers now take a chance to hit penalty more severe than before, so you miss more often which equates to lower overall DPS and more time clearing missions. this is the reason why i have put off training up for a paladin for now. might go and train up absolution now.
Jennz	Posted - 2008.11.18 22:38:00 - [63] Edited by: Jennz on 18/11/2008 22:44:38 Originally by: Sean Faust Nothing has changed in the formula or the way damaging/wrecking shots are calculated. The only thing that has changed is the NAME. Anything that WOULD have been considered a wrecking shot before now is called excellent, though the damage has NOT changed. The only thing that has been changed is that the WORD "wrecking" has been omitted, along with "barely scratches". The formula has NOT changed in a way that would affect damage, however. How can you say that? Two TYPES of hit have completely disappeared ("wrecking" and "barely scratches"). If the formula HASN'T been changed to accommodate this then there HAS been a nerf to DPS. It stands to reason - if "wrecking" was the source of 3x damage, and "barely scratches" did ANY damage at all (which of course it did) then removing either/both of them without reworking the formula to ensure that the DPS remains the same whether it's called "excellent", "lightly tickles" or whatever then our DPS would've gone down. Pre-QR you could "glances off", "barely misses", "misses" (all misses), "barely scratches", "hits", "is well aimed", "places an excellent hit", "perfectly strikes" (all hits of varying qualities). Post-QR you can "glances off", "barely misses", "misses" (all misses), "hits", "is well aimed", "places an excellent hit" ..that's two actual hits that no longer exist in the game. If the hit quality formula hasn't been changed to accommodate that then we've been nerfed, pure and simple. Originally by: Ki Tarra The problem is that ignorant people seem to be jumping to the conclusion that because the word "wrecking" is no longer appearing in the combat logs, that they are some how doing less damage than they were before the patch. No one has said that explicitly so I don't know why you're putting words in peoples mouths. The OP said he isn't seeing wrecking hits anymore - which has been confirmed by several other people including myself. It's hardly out of order for people to wonder what's going on given there has been no information in any patch notes indicating that anything had changed in terms of hit qualities. I just want clarification on it one way or the other - no more, no less. Incidentally a bug report I submitted earlier on this has now apparently "been attached to a known defect".
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.11.18 22:50:00 - [64] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 18/11/2008 22:51:34 Originally by: Jennz Two TYPES of hit have completely disappeared ("wrecking" and "barely scratches"). No types of hits have disappeared! The types of hits are all still there. Would it matter if could "dsjfh", "asjdfhj", "jkshdfj", "sdfsd", "sjdfhasj", "jsdfh", "sjdfhaj", "jsafhdaj" before QR, and then after QR you could only "jkshdfj", "sdfsd", "sjdfhasj", "jsdfh", "sjdfhaj", "jsafhdaj" If your hits still do 51%-150% or 300% damage with exactly the same probablity, then WTF does it matter what flavor text appears in your combat logs. Look at the ****ing damage numbers instead of the text.
Jennz	Posted - 2008.11.18 23:01:00 - [65] Edited by: Jennz on 18/11/2008 23:02:45 Is there a reason you're just being facetious now? How old are you? The damage numbers aren't an exact science though are they? If one type of hit always hit for 300 and another always hit for 500, and so on, we could work out at a glance if overall DPS has changed. It's not that simple though is it - hits go from min-max and vary according to a whole host of factors - target resists, etc. Unless someone is in a position to work out scientifically if DPS is still the same even if the wording has changed, or a Dev steps in and says "nothing has changed", then I personally won't be happy about the current state of affairs. You may well be happy to accept a possible nerf without any apparent justification but I'm not, and it seems nor are other people. Is it so wrong to want some form of clarification on this whether it be someone who has actually worked out the DPS (like the previous thread on hit qualities), or a Dev? No offence but your say-so that nothing has changed doesn't mean jack st. Once again for the cheap seats: NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE FKING WORDING.
Overbrain	Posted - 2008.11.18 23:04:00 - [66] Ok people, i got an update here. Criticals seems to be back . 2 days after this topic was created. Now im experiencing critical hits and the regular numbers which i used to have in eve before QR. It seems the ninja nerf or bug is invisibly fixed in another ninja way. So lets stop fighting eachother and celebrate having good old criticals back.
Jennz	Posted - 2008.11.18 23:05:00 - [67] Edited by: Jennz on 18/11/2008 23:05:50 Originally by: Overbrain Ok people, i got an update here. Criticals seems to be back . 2 days after this topic was created. Now im experiencing critical hits and the regular numbers which i used to have in eve before QR. It seems the ninja nerf or bug is invisibly fixed in another ninja way. So lets stop fighting eachother and celebrate having good old criticals back. Holy s*t you mean Ki Tarra might actually have been wrong* and DPS was inadvertently nerfed? It can't be!?
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.11.18 23:07:00 - [68] Originally by: Jennz The damage numbers aren't an exact science though are they? But it is an exact science. We know exactly what the range of damage you can get in any specific situation is. When I get home, I can figure out how the new flavor text maps over to damage values if that will make you feel better. It is not too hard: - Anchor a secure can - Take about 1000 shots at it while stationary - Look at your combat logs an see how the text maps to damage in terms of percentage. - You can then map misses the same way, just start moving out of optimal into fall off. - As you start to miss, your best quality shots will be changed into your nearest misses - Watch points where the flavor text changes as each description of hit turns into a miss.
Jennz	Posted - 2008.11.18 23:08:00 - [69] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Jennz The damage numbers aren't an exact science though are they? But it is an exact science. We know exactly what the range of damage you can get in any specific situation is. When I get home, I can figure out how the new flavor text maps over to damage values if that will make you feel better. It is not too hard: - Anchor a secure can - Take about 1000 shots at it while stationary - Look at your combat logs an see how the text maps to damage in terms of percentage. - You can then map misses the same way, just start moving out of optimal into fall off. - As you start to miss, your best quality shots will be changed into your nearest misses - Watch points where the flavor text changes as each description of hit turns into a miss. That's why I said I would be happy if someone scientifically proved it. The above is a scientific method. You (or anyone else) saying "it's still the same just accept it and stop crying" != science.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.11.18 23:13:00 - [70] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 18/11/2008 23:15:01 Originally by: Jennz That's why I said I would be happy if someone scientifically proved it. The above is a scientific method. You (or anyone else) saying "it's still the same just accept it and stop crying" != science. You seem to have missed the part where I already did the science. Two days ago. Back when this thread first got started. I skipped the part about mapping flavor text to damage because I didn't think that it mattered. Like you said: "NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE F**KING WORDING." This thread appears to keep going on still the same, because those claiming there has been a change to damage output seem to be unwilling to do the science. "Crying OMG I don't see any 'wrecking' hits" != science.
Stil Harkonnen	Posted - 2008.11.19 00:01:00 - [71] Edited by: Stil Harkonnen on 19/11/2008 00:01:59 Damn somebody's really ****ed that their missiles got nerfed... what if I really liked seeing that I get get wrecking hits? my gunnery skills royally suck right now and I really loved it when by chance one of my medium blasters "strikes <insert rat name> perfectly wrecking for 264.5 damage" edit: p i s s is automatically censored and damn isn't???
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.11.19 02:51:00 - [72] Originally by: Stil Harkonnen what if I really liked seeing that I get get wrecking hits? Not to worry. You can still spot the "wrecking" hits just as easily as before. With ungrouped turrets the break down of damage descriptions is: 0.5x - 1.0x = "Your <turret> hits <target>, doing <number> damage." 1.0x - 1.5x = "Your <turret> is well aimed at <target>, inflicting <number> damage." 3.0x = "Your <turret> places an excellent hit on <target>, inflicting <number> damage." If you group the turrets it appears to follow a slightly different pattern. I am still collecting data to see what that pattern is. However, the pattern is very similar to the single turret descriptions. I am also still working out the details for the flavor text on misses. I will post when I have more information on this. As for the frequency of "wrecking", "excellent", or whatever adjective you want to use for hits with a 3x multiplier, it is still at 1%, reconfirmed this evening on TQ during my testing of flavor text.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.11.19 05:45:00 - [73] Perhaps theyve just taken away the wrecking hit notification. U'd think theyd tell us though, ninja nerfing a cool feature is pointless unless it reduces lag. If it reduces lag then they def. shld have told us.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.11.19 05:53:00 - [74] Originally by: Jennz Pre-QR you could "glances off", "barely misses", "misses" (all misses), "barely scratches", "hits", "is well aimed", "places an excellent hit", "perfectly strikes" (all hits of varying qualities). Post-QR you can "glances off", "barely misses", "misses" (all misses), "hits", "is well aimed", "places an excellent hit" ..that's two actual hits that no longer exist in the game. If the hit quality formula hasn't been changed to accommodate that then we've been nerfed, pure and simple. WTF, why would they keep the useless ones like "barely misses" and "glances off" When they cld just replace them all with "misses" and no-one wld give a damn. But instead they take away the cool notifications like "wrecking". They only thing i can think of is that it was un-intentional (like when the copy url option dissapeared). OR that the "glance's off" etc shots generated less/no lag when compared to "wrecking"
Merak Thrawn	Posted - 2008.11.20 23:45:00 - [75] Well if they change something in a patch. Which they obviously did in this case. We should at least have been properly informed and explained what, why, how etc. Ninja changes are uncool
Captain Ziltoid	Posted - 2008.11.21 01:29:00 - [76] Originally by: Ki Tarra You seem to have missed the part where I already did the science. Two days ago. Back when this thread first got started. Arazel Chainfire also verified my results. I skipped the part about mapping flavor text to damage because I didn't think that it mattered. Like you said: "NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE F**KING WORDING." This thread appears to keep going on still the same, because those claiming there has been a change to damage output seem to be unwilling to do the science. "Crying OMG I don't see any 'wrecking' hits" != science. http://imgs.xkcd.com/store/imgs/stand_back_square_0.png On a more serious note. Just because wrecking hits are still mathematically possible, given the forumlas provided, doesn't mean somethign didn't screw up on CCP's end. And if they WERE still being calculated, but not showing as "wrecking" then it is STILL a bug, for the hits should show up as "WRECKING" when a "WRECKING HIT" is achieved. Also, YAY I get wreckings again.
Jennz	Posted - 2008.11.27 03:34:00 - [77] Originally by: CCP Build 70124 to 70333 addresses Patch Notes for Quantum Rise 1.0.2 Patch notes for Quantum Rise 1.0.2, released 27 November 2008 Turret damage is now displayed correctly in the player logs. Wrecking and excellent hits will be shown in all of their pew pew glory. Clearly something was broken then, as they're fixing it. Good to know.
Lady Aja Caldari Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.27 04:08:00 - [78] Originally by: Jennz Originally by: CCP Build 70124 to 70333 addresses Patch Notes for Quantum Rise 1.0.2 Patch notes for Quantum Rise 1.0.2, released 27 November 2008 Turret damage is now displayed correctly in the player logs. Wrecking and excellent hits will be shown in all of their pew pew glory. Clearly something was broken then, as they're fixing it. Good to know. cant wait for a wrecking shot grouped weapons.. My harbi already gets nearly 1900 group damage in some cases. and ppl wonder why i recently pwned a pilgrim....
Ancy Denaries Caldari Solaris Operations	Posted - 2008.11.27 08:59:00 - [79] Originally by: Lady Aja Originally by: Jennz Originally by: CCP Build 70124 to 70333 addresses Patch Notes for Quantum Rise 1.0.2 Patch notes for Quantum Rise 1.0.2, released 27 November 2008 Turret damage is now displayed correctly in the player logs. Wrecking and excellent hits will be shown in all of their pew pew glory. Clearly something was broken then, as they're fixing it. Good to know. cant wait for a wrecking shot grouped weapons.. My harbi already gets nearly 1900 group damage in some cases. and ppl wonder why i recently pwned a pilgrim.... Just please notice that ALL 7 guns won't wreck at the same time. It was stated at Fanfest that the hit qualities are calculated separately, although everrything else is calculated en-masse. Imagine an arty Pest getting a full rack wrecker? Imbalanced, yes? So no, all guns will not hit/miss for same quality. That is still individual. Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.11.27 10:26:00 - [80] Originally by: Ancy Denaries Originally by: Lady Aja Originally by: Jennz Originally by: CCP Build 70124 to 70333 addresses Patch Notes for Quantum Rise 1.0.2 Patch notes for Quantum Rise 1.0.2, released 27 November 2008 Turret damage is now displayed correctly in the player logs. Wrecking and excellent hits will be shown in all of their pew pew glory. Clearly something was broken then, as they're fixing it. Good to know. cant wait for a wrecking shot grouped weapons.. My harbi already gets nearly 1900 group damage in some cases. and ppl wonder why i recently pwned a pilgrim.... Just please notice that ALL 7 guns won't wreck at the same time. It was stated at Fanfest that the hit qualities are calculated separately, although everrything else is calculated en-masse. Imagine an arty Pest getting a full rack wrecker? Imbalanced, yes? So no, all guns will not hit/miss for same quality. That is still individual. Well, nothing says you CAN'T get wrecking hits with every gun on a ship, other than probability. It's a 1% chance per gun, so on an 8 gun ship like an Abaddon for example that means your chance at getting a full rack wrecking shot is what? 1:100,000,000,000,000 (one in one hundred trillion). If someone manages to get a full rack wrecking shot, I say they win eve.
Baneful Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.11.27 11:06:00 - [81] Edited by: Baneful on 27/11/2008 11:09:10 It seems like CCP changed a bunch of the calculations around. I have searched some logs, and I am only seeing "hits" and "is well aimed". No "barely scratches" or "lightly hits" or "strikes perfectly" for that matter. It would be my assumption that CCP is trying to take some of the "luck" out of the game and regulate DPS by pure straightforwardness. I used to believe that wrecks and crappy shots (as well as misses) were a part of the DPS calculation. But, I could be wrong. At any rate, yeah. Still getting "barely misses" and "misses completely" though :) (albiet only once in a while ;D) WAIT!!!!!!! I have found a Barely Scratches (though with a grouped set) [ 2008.11.16 18:14:03 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your group of Heavy Neutron Blaster II barely scratches Core Admiral, causing 85.2 damage. !!! ------------------ I Seem To Have Misplaced My Sig...
Math'ra Hiede Amarr Quality Assurance Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.27 11:14:00 - [82] Now that you mention it... - I haven't seena any of those style hits, and I use a Navy Apoc and Harbinger for my two frequently piloted ships and both of them hit for wrecking shots (mainly the Harb) occasionally, but it was very noticable - with and without grouped weapons... v. interesting - I hope it hasn't been a stealth nerf to DPS, which is odd because I swear I have been doing MORE dps, although tracking isn't as good as I remember it being
Ancy Denaries Caldari Solaris Operations	Posted - 2008.11.27 12:12:00 - [83] Wow, it repeats itself... If you've read the thread you'll notice that the fix that fixes the combat log messages is to be deployed TODAY. (Right now if I'm not mistaken.) Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change.
Jennz	Posted - 2008.11.27 12:59:00 - [84] Originally by: Ancy Denaries Wow, it repeats itself... If you've read the thread you'll notice that the fix that fixes the combat log messages is to be deployed TODAY. (Right now if I'm not mistaken.) This. The wording (and/or DPS) was broken, they're fixing it/have fixed it. Confused? Good!
Rosalina Sarinna Aliastra	Posted - 2008.11.27 13:20:00 - [85] I had also noticed it had been 'missing' - beign that just the word or the actualy shot type. Anyways, will be interesting to see after the patch if it comes back!

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