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why is the explosion velocity only 85m/s on a rocket?

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Resamo	Posted - 2008.11.17 06:57:00 - [1] i am just curious as to why rockets were reduced from 3150m/s to 85m/s is this not a little extream? A rocket does reduced damage against a tech 1 frigate with 0 skills and 0 speed mods thats webbified? rockets get reduced damage vs battleships that are moving without any speed mods? Is this a typ-o, i am sitting here looking at the 85m/s explosion velocity and i cant really wrap me head around it. A torpedo now has 71m/s explosion velocity, a heavy assault missile has 101m/s and a rocket has 85m/s??? So a heavy assault missile hits fast targets better then a rocket?? I am just wondering if i am reading this right? all the explosion velocities seem slow to me (light missiles explode slower then cruisers can move before moduals) but the rocket one just makes no sense. As a person who ocasionaly uses rocket's i am really concerned. Maybe i just dont understand the new formula, if thats the case could someone explain it to me? and i would love ccp to put out some damge graphs showing me my damage reduction as it relates to speed and signature radius with the new missile changes and formuals.
Stork DK Minmatar Armada.	Posted - 2008.11.17 07:44:00 - [2] CCP rushed out their Christmas expansion too early. So bugs unite \o/
Max Hardcase Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.17 07:47:00 - [3] the key stat is the drf which sorta describes the steepness of the falloff.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.17 07:56:00 - [4] Why? Because CCP hates solo PvP. It was not fair that missiles could do effective damage without bringing a blob of painter/web ships to support them, so now they suffer damage reduction against everything but an AFK capital ship.
MenanceWhite Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.11.17 07:58:00 - [5] Edited by: MenanceWhite on 17/11/2008 07:59:09 changed missile damage formula It's been mentioned on countless topics over the last week. But OP as ignorant as they are just HAD to make another topicc asking about it. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.11.17 09:33:00 - [6] Originally by: MenanceWhite Edited by: MenanceWhite on 17/11/2008 07:59:09 changed missile damage formula It's been mentioned on countless topics over the last week. But OP as ignorant as they are just HAD to make another topicc asking about it. It is not about the formula it is about the huge nerf what hit missile ,I wonder who told ccp that missiles were overpowered and needed a nerf
Falaricae	Posted - 2008.11.17 10:01:00 - [7] Edited by: Falaricae on 17/11/2008 10:03:28 Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: MenanceWhite Edited by: MenanceWhite on 17/11/2008 07:59:09 changed missile damage formula It's been mentioned on countless topics over the last week. But OP as ignorant as they are just HAD to make another topicc asking about it. It is not about the formula it is about the huge nerf what hit missile ,I wonder who told ccp that missiles were overpowered and needed a nerf Well about every other person that commented on the initial implementation of the speed nerf, complained about missiles beeing overpowered. To sum it up: "Missile boats, they will be the best anti everything ship, regardless of their own class, as they work without webs now, and with the speed changes, they will shred all cruiser sized ships and below with ease."
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.11.17 10:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Falaricae Edited by: Falaricae on 17/11/2008 10:03:28 Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: MenanceWhite Edited by: MenanceWhite on 17/11/2008 07:59:09 changed missile damage formula It's been mentioned on countless topics over the last week. But OP as ignorant as they are just HAD to make another topicc asking about it. It is not about the formula it is about the huge nerf what hit missile ,I wonder who told ccp that missiles were overpowered and needed a nerf Well about every other person that commented on the initial implementation of the speed nerf, complained about missiles beeing overpowered. To sum it up: "Missile boats, they will be the best anti everything ship, regardless of their own class, as they work without webs now, and with the speed changes, they will shred all cruiser sized ships and below with ease." Now it is the otherside missileships are hardy good against their class and useless below it. And dont have the dps to compete with bigger ones.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.11.17 10:20:00 - [9] Originally by: Resamo i am just curious as to why rockets were reduced from 3150m/s to 85m/s is this not a little extream? A rocket does reduced damage against a tech 1 frigate with 0 skills and 0 speed mods thats webbified? rockets get reduced damage vs battleships that are moving without any speed mods? Is this a typ-o, i am sitting here looking at the 85m/s explosion velocity and i cant really wrap me head around it. A torpedo now has 71m/s explosion velocity, a heavy assault missile has 101m/s and a rocket has 85m/s??? So a heavy assault missile hits fast targets better then a rocket?? I am just wondering if i am reading this right? all the explosion velocities seem slow to me (light missiles explode slower then cruisers can move before moduals) but the rocket one just makes no sense. As a person who ocasionaly uses rocket's i am really concerned. Maybe i just dont understand the new formula, if thats the case could someone explain it to me? and i would love ccp to put out some damge graphs showing me my damage reduction as it relates to speed and signature radius with the new missile changes and formuals. if your targets signature is big enough you can still hit for full dmg with the new system. now compare explosion radius of light missiles and rockets.
KhaniKirai	Posted - 2008.11.17 11:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: MenanceWhite Edited by: MenanceWhite on 17/11/2008 07:59:09 changed missile damage formula It's been mentioned on countless topics over the last week. But OP as ignorant as they are just HAD to make another topicc asking about it. It is not about the formula it is about the huge nerf what hit missile ,I wonder who told ccp that missiles were overpowered and needed a nerf People, that didnt use missiles, that though, everyone was using missiles in pvp, people that have no clue about missile mods and rigs. Basically most people, that think missiles were overpowered, never used them and these people were also badly trained for their own turret stuff. At this moment, if your skills are low in missiles, you dont see much difference, but training skills up barely has any use. The more skill you had trained, the more your dps fell back from before. Biggest issues: -speed of npc targets and their sigs didnt get patched. -lack of modules, that increase missile explosion velocity. -lack of modules, that decrease missile radius impact -skills percentage of target navigation prediction and guided missile precision are not increased to overcome the big big penalties. The t2 fury cruise, you cant get the radius down enough with max skills, rigs and implants to overcome the new penalties. Same with the explosion velocity, no matter what skills, implants, rigs you use. (again t1 people dont notice this) -drone bays of caldari ships still non-existent or still small, even when you now NEED drones. -mass of caldari ships still incredible big, but for what? Why is this penalty still there? Ranges of some t2 hams got reduced instead of being improved. Even t2 hams cant get full damage on targets bigger then their intended target. Yeah, difference with low skills is minor compared to before, thats why loads of people dont see the problems. The people with high skills and that also have high skills in turrets, they can see the difference pretty easy.
MenanceWhite Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.11.17 12:54:00 - [11] Prepatch missiles were something like this: I had a char with 10m SP in missiles. But I decided to make an Amarr char to start at new with: Oh okay lasers, hey why does my frigate long range laser only have 12km in range? My kestrel could hit for 25+ without any problem :( Rockets with some skill would have the same range as long range lasers with high damage-low range ammo and still do more damage... And then came the torp change which made the torp deal as much damage as large blasters, with longer range and without the tracking problems. Why can he kill frigates that are orbitting him at 5km with cruisemissiles when I have no chance with my megapulse / megabeam? Defenders are broken, there's no way to properly defend vs missiles since theyre cappless and tracking free... except for SPEED! LOL or long range. The only problems with missiles were problems with damaging primary etc in time during fleet and that precision heavy were crap. also, the amount of missile users switching to turret making "wtf why do I do no damage o_0r" threads didnt make it better. of course people would whine about missiles on the speednerf patch. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.17 13:01:00 - [12] Originally by: MenanceWhite Prepatch missiles were something like this: I had a char with 10m SP in missiles. But I decided to make an Amarr char to start at new with: Oh okay lasers, hey why does my frigate long range laser only have 12km in range? My kestrel could hit for 25+ without any problem :( Cause you suck at character creation? My amarr alt had 16 km optimal with microwave lenses on his punisher since his day 1. Don't remember what it was with radio, never used them. _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.17 13:01:00 - [13] Note: OP is not talking about other missiles , just rockets. The short range , anti small ship weapon. Which is ineffective against its "intended targets"
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.17 14:14:00 - [14] Edited by: Rastigan on 17/11/2008 14:15:21 Originally by: MenanceWhite Prepatch missiles were something like this: Oh okay lasers, hey why does my frigate long range laser only have 12km in range? My kestrel could hit for 25+ without any problem :( Rockets with some skill would have the same range as long range lasers with high damage-low range ammo and still do more damage... Maybe because your skills/fittings arent up to par ? Kestrels can hit for longer than 25km and so can small lasers. Dont forget T2 missiles/rockets/etc also have harsher penalties -speed% for t2 long range rockets. Quote: And then came the torp change which made the torp deal as much damage as large blasters, with longer range and without the tracking problems. Large Blasters can ** nanohacs, torpedoes not so much... Quote: Why can he kill frigates that are orbitting him at 5km with cruisemissiles when I have no chance with my megapulse / megabeam? Huh ? Precision lights had a hard time going 1 point of damage vs interceptors.. Let alone cruise missiles. Quote: Defenders are broken, there's no way to properly defend vs missiles since theyre cappless and tracking free... except for SPEED! LOL or long range. Defenders suck, no argument there. Quote: The only problems with missiles were problems with damaging primary etc in time during fleet and that precision heavy were crap. Precision heavy's didnt scale as well as precision cruises thats for sure. Quote:** also, the amount of missile users switching to turret making "wtf why do I do no damage o_0r" threads didnt make it better. of course people would whine about missiles on the speednerf patch. Missiles were suboptimal for PvP pre-patch, this patch certainly didnt help them at all.
Resamo	Posted - 2008.11.17 23:40:00 - [15] Originally by: MenanceWhite Edited by: MenanceWhite on 17/11/2008 07:59:09 changed missile damage formula It's been mentioned on countless topics over the last week. But OP as ignorant as they are just HAD to make another topicc asking about it. I want to know why rocket explosion velocity is so low, but thanks for your extreamly usefull post i will take the fact that i now know how ignorant i am and turn that into the reason why rocket explosion velocity is near that of torpedoes. Thanks to you the universe is clear of confusion. Does anyone know the actual reason why rocket explosion velocity is so damn low? i can understand a reduction across the board but making it so rockets cant even hit moving battleships for full damage has me confused. (i would also love to take a look at the forumal itself does anyone actualy have it?_
Resamo	Posted - 2008.11.17 23:42:00 - [16] Originally by: Cpt Cosmic signature is big enough you can still hit for full dmg with the new system. now compare explosion radius of light missiles and rockets. Is this true? i would love to see the actual formual to confirm this.
supr3m3justic3 Caldari Hakata Group Blade.	Posted - 2008.11.17 23:55:00 - [17] Formula: Power+Greed+Beer+Icelanders=MEGANERF ____
Marine HK4861 Caldari Radical Technologies	Posted - 2008.11.18 00:33:00 - [18] Originally by: Resamo Originally by: Cpt Cosmic signature is big enough you can still hit for full dmg with the new system. now compare explosion radius of light missiles and rockets. Is this true? i would love to see the actual formual to confirm this. This is the closest player derived formula at the moment: Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(0.586 * log(drf)) ) Where sig = ship's signature vel = ship's velocity Er = Explosion Radius of missile Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile from this thread. Note that CCP will not and never have released any actual ingame formulas.
Sigras	Posted - 2008.11.18 01:12:00 - [19] Originally by: Marine HK4861 This is the closest player derived formula at the moment: Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(0.586 * log(drf)) ) Where sig = ship's signature vel = ship's velocity Er = Explosion Radius of missile Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile from this thread. Note that CCP will not and never have released any actual ingame formulas. ummmm . . . is this true, velocity doesnt even factor in if the target's signature radius is big enough? doesnt this render all MWD's moot for speed tanking?
Dracthera	Posted - 2008.11.18 01:16:00 - [20] I wouldn't worry about the new explosion velocity. It's a part of a new formula, and essentially with this latest patch CCP introduced a concept similar to falloff to missiles as we had one for turrets.
Lurana Lay Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.18 01:31:00 - [21] Originally by: Dracthera I wouldn't worry about the new explosion velocity. It's a part of a new formula, and essentially with this latest patch CCP introduced a concept similar to falloff to missiles as we had one for turrets. Yeah, except that they overdid it.
Arkeladin	Posted - 2008.11.18 01:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Sigras Originally by: Marine HK4861 This is the closest player derived formula at the moment: Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(0.586 * log(drf)) ) Where sig = ship's signature vel = ship's velocity Er = Explosion Radius of missile Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile from this thread. Note that CCP will not and never have released any actual ingame formulas. ummmm . . . is this true, velocity doesnt even factor in if the target's signature radius is big enough? doesnt this render all MWD's moot for speed tanking? Somewhat, yes. The devs want less MWDs, more ABs - which is why the famous quote from a dev: "ABs are now a viable way for ships to speed-tank missiles:", All part of that infamous "nano-nerf", don't ya know.
Chssmius Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.18 03:41:00 - [23] Edited by: Chssmius on 18/11/2008 03:44:41 Originally by: Sigras Originally by: Marine HK4861 This is the closest player derived formula at the moment: Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(0.586 * log(drf)) ) Where sig = ship's signature vel = ship's velocity Er = Explosion Radius of missile Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile from this thread. Note that CCP will not and never have released any actual ingame formulas. ummmm . . . is this true, velocity doesnt even factor in if the target's signature radius is big enough? doesnt this render all MWD's moot for speed tanking? Ahh, no(the key is nested MIN functions), if the ship signature is small enough(think drone) or the explosion radius of the missile large enough(think heavy, cruise, torp) then velocity plays no part in determining damage reduction but the cases where that can happen are fairly rare. The thing that gets me is the degree to which damage reduction is built into the missiles themselves when using this formula. Example, light missile have a Er of 50, an Ev of 170, and a drf of 2.8. An unpainted, rifter that isn't moving gets light missile damage reduced by 30%! This same unpainted rifter moving at about half speed will start to get more damage reduced. If fitted with an AB, unpainted, and flown by a decent pilot the rifter will get a whopping 74% damage reduction from light missiles at top speed. Put an MWD on it and it will still get about a 60% damage reduction at 3.5 km/s and that is with a sig of 210!
Sigras	Posted - 2008.11.18 08:31:00 - [24] thanks for the clarification; dont know why i read this as max
Sigras	Posted - 2008.11.18 14:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Chssmius Edited by: Chssmius on 18/11/2008 04:17:34 Edited by: Chssmius on 18/11/2008 04:05:25Ahh, no(the key is nested MIN functions), if the ship signature is small enough(think drone) or the explosion radius of the missile large enough(think heavy, cruise, torp) then velocity plays no part in determining damage reduction but the cases where that can happen "should be" fairly rare, but they are not. What gets me is the degree to which damage reduction is built into the missiles themselves when using this formula. For example, light missile have a Er of 50, an Ev of 170, and a drf of 2.8. An unpainted, rifter that isn't moving gets light missile damage reduced by something like 30%. From there the curve looks pretty flat until you reach ~600 to ~800 m/s(the latter is with perfect skills) then it starts to dive again. I shouldn't have to tell you it is worse with other missiles. (Also, precision lights only do marginally more damage against small signature targets at very high speeds. So much so that the only case I can think of where it is advantages to use precision lights is against an ABing interceptor.) This statement was incorrect after messing around with the formulas some more the only case where precision lights can do more damage is against light drones. For everything else(unless say, a frigate flown by a pilot with a full halo set) , it can't go fast enough as it would need an MWD(and the resulting sig bloom which leads to...) and/or the targets signature radius is sufficiently large that other light missiles will always out damage it. EDIT: For my vanity. EDIT2: Added full Halo implant case. Again; though the point stands, doesnt this render MWD's moot for speed tanking? 500% speed buff + 500% Sig Radius nerf = no changes right?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.11.18 14:26:00 - [26] Originally by: Sigras Again; though the point stands, doesnt this render MWD's moot for speed tanking? 500% speed buff + 500% Sig Radius nerf = no changes right? In general, yes. MWD is a 500% self-painter. Note that shiny MWDs have less sig bloom, and that inties have a MWD-sig-bloom reduction bonus. In general, missile damage vs. a MWDing target is pretty similar to a target travelling at base speed - or a webbed ABing target. And damage against a webbed MWDing target is pretty similar to damage against a webbed target that has no speed mod active - the additional speed and MWD sig bloom almost cancel each other out in both cases - although it requires full speed to have been achieved.
Sigras	Posted - 2008.11.18 17:02:00 - [27] that blows . . . basically no reason for an MWD except to get up close and eventually fall off of an AB'ing target . . . hmmmm or to increase the cap of a thorax, vigilant, deimos lol
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.11.18 17:14:00 - [28] Originally by: Sigras that blows . . . basically no reason for an MWD except to get up close and eventually fall off of an AB'ing target . . . hmmmm or to increase the cap of a thorax, vigilant, deimos lol Well, in that respect, missiles now work just like turrets always did - for tracking, the effect of the 500% speed boost of MWD was always cancelled out (assuming perpendicular motion) by the 500% MWD sig bloom. (I think this is right?). MWDs won't go away - the tactical mobility provided by a MWD is invaluable, and a AB just can't do it. Not to mention that you can't dictate transversal with a AB against a MWDing opponent, and your AB-speed tank against missiles disappears when you get webbed - which you will, because you're slower than a similar MWDing ship.
Max Hardcase Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.18 18:51:00 - [29] MWD will slightly increase your damage reduction with the navigation skills.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2008.11.18 19:00:00 - [30] correct; acceleration control easily takes you to/beyond +600% while the signature remains at +500% afterburners more than double your speed (unless you're in some heavy-weight like a stealth bomber) - since its all multiplicative, this results in a better damage reduction - but leaves you vulnerable to being overrun/caught by MWDs about the rockets; ... due to really low explosion radius and, as max already said, the steepness because of the drf.

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