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Banker Lucy
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Posted - 2008.11.18 20:38:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Banker Lucy on 18/11/2008 20:41:38
Chapter 1: Summary of EVE casino
EVE casino is EVE's first casino business, while there have been many texas hold'em and various other lottery corporations, none have house games such as blackjack. Current games are all playable in the in-game browser and include blackjack, roulette, video poker and slots. It is still in development, a flashier out of game version of the site will be finished shortly and more games such as texas hold'em will be added. Take a look at the free play area at http://evec.site40.net/session/login.php
Chapter 2: Corporate structure
After considering various options, I've decided to keep things between myself and a RL friend, ThatCPP. We will be running things and possibly hire a few bankers to help.
Chapter 3 - The Business Plan
I am to be very similar to a real life casino. Most games will be almost exact copies of games you would find in a normal casino. I believe that this is a niche area which has not been done before.
I do not expect there to be much business for the first few months as the corporation needs to grow in reputation first. However, as with real life casinos it is still a very lucrative business.
Chapter 4 - Reason For Bond
The ISK is needed for investment into marketing. It is also needed so that customers can be confident in the fact that any winnings will be paid out quickly. The roulette table has a maximum payout of 7 billion on one spin. The casino needs enough capital to absorb this volatility. The casino currently has assets of 4 billion ISK, all of which is liquid.
Chapter 5 - Full Disclosure of Risks
While in the long run, all the games in the casino would turn a profit, short term volatility could cause fluctuations in the profits. There is also a very small risk of total ruin. However, as long as the corporation still has ISK in it's wallet, the minimum of 6% per month will be paid even if there was a net loss for the month.
I know I am not known on the forums nor in game. However, I believe that the work I have put into the website is better security than most other investment opportunities. Should I not repay the bonds, all the work would go to waste as this is a business which relies heavily on reputation.
Chapter 6 - Hit By A Bus Strategy
Since both me and thatCPP has full control over the funds, should one of us get hit by the bus the bond should still be repaid.
Chapter 7 - Bond Structure
There will be 100 bonds issued for 100 million ISK per bond. Depending on interest, it will be all in one block or split into two blocks. There will be a monthly payout of a floating rate of 20% of the profits each month. This is capped at a minimum of 6% and a maximum of 13% per month.
I reserve the right to buy the bonds back at 110% of issued price and the full payout for that month.
At the end of 3 months I will make the final payout and buy the bonds back at the issue price.
Investors will also gain access to a real-time summary of the casino's revenue and net profits. This can be accessed using any web browser.
Reservations:
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.11.18 20:49:00 -
[2]
Edited by: cosmoray on 18/11/2008 20:49:50
I don't have a problem with the concept, and I am not sure if you are an ALT of the person looking for feedback in the last week or so, but there will be a big issue with trust.
1. I think you need to bring someone on board who the MD community trusts for making payments to and withdrawing.
2. The casino needs to have auditors in place that can audit it at any time to confirm payout structure
3. You need to list what the payout structures, and mechanisms will be.
4. I would also like to see a current audit.
5. I would like you to think about this business as an IPO which may be more attractive because you are an unknown
Aside from that, I am actually interested in investing.
I will reserve 500M on the basis that you sort out the above questions.
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Banker Lucy
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Posted - 2008.11.18 21:00:00 -
[3]
Thanks for the reservation, will try to meet your conditions. You are right that trust will be difficult since I am an unknown, however, as I stated above I believe that this is less risky than some other investment opportunities as the business itself serves as a form of security.
 Quote:
1. I think you need to bring someone on board who the MD community trusts for making payments to and withdrawing.
I would be very interested in someone auditing
Quote:
2. The casino needs to have auditors in place that can audit it at any time to confirm payout structure
Do you mean from a customers point of view and not investors?
Quote:
3. You need to list what the payout structures, and mechanisms will be.
20% of the profits for that month with a minimum of 6% and maximum of 13% of the issue value.
Quote:
4. I would also like to see a current audit.
Quote:
5. You need to identify what your profit split will be with the investors and your self (management fees, etc). How much the total business will be worth and how many shares will be owned by the public
The profit will not really be split, the payout per month will just be tied to the profits for that month. Full control will remain with me. This will be more of a loan than an IPO.
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TheVad
Amarr
Metalworks
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Posted - 2008.11.18 21:02:00 -
[4]
1) In addition to what cosmos mentoned I also like to see what security measures you have in place to prevent hacking and compormise of accounts? Security is #1 in any casino business as you may know. Othr then that I would be a potential investor as well.
TheVad
Project Manager & Chief Editor| www.eve-bank.net
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.11.18 21:11:00 -
[5]
1. Mechanisms for pay in and pay out for customers.
2. Also full payout win rates for all games played.
3. This is then audited so that customers are happy that they are playing with the correct odds.
4. You need full disclosure of your main(s) and other toons.
A casino could be a cash cow, but only if there is 100% customer trust that they are playing in a fair game and also that they can cash out of the casino easily.
This is the major reason I would like to see this as an IPO as a reward for investors taking a risk with you, they get a long term benefit. You will also have the share value increase.
Trust and pay (in and out) mechanisms are critical. |
CornerStoner
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Posted - 2008.11.18 21:12:00 -
[6]
Edited by: CornerStoner on 18/11/2008 21:13:19
If security and accountability can be assured I'd invest a small amount.
Edit:Reserve 100m providing conditions are met. |
Banker Lucy
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Posted - 2008.11.18 21:31:00 -
[7]
Hacking of accounts will not really be a problem since they are tied to the eve accounts. I am however worried about people exploiting bugs in the games and stuff like that. Things like the strength of the random number generator also concern me. Will work to prevent it.
The minimum is 6% per month which I think is highly competitive with other bonds without the added bonus of a higher payout should the company do well. The buy back would be for a minimum of 116% since it would include that months payout. So unless this is a scam or the casino takes a loss of the 10 billion AND around 4 billion of my own assets, the minimum return will be 118% and the maximum will be 139% total after 3 months.
Yes, it is somewhat like a loan but investors also stand to benefit from the business doing well.
I was considering more of an IPO style offering by decided on this as I feel it is simpler.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.11.18 21:33:00 -
[8]
If you wanted, and I was willing with the last person offering a gambling offer, I'd be more than willing to use an alt slot on my main account for your third party account holder.
Using a third non involved party would go a long way towards adding some measure of security. |
Amarr Citizen 155
Tleilex Developments
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Posted - 2008.11.18 21:36:00 -
[9]
I'll be honest I haven't read the entire op but I did read one part and it causes me the most concern. Why do you need 10 billion???
1. If you spend that much on marketing then you aren't doing something right.
2. You shouldn't start with tables that pay out that much.
3. Start small, gain trust, work your way up.
4. There's really no need to start with this sort of capital when you could do the same job or better with less.
5. If the potential payout on your games is so high, wouldn't that mean that players would also be putting a lot of isk down to play? You are an unknown, Thatccp is an unknown, who is going to fork out that sort of isk? This is why you should start with smaller buyins and smaller payouts. 7 billion potential payout on day 1 is a bad idea.
You don't need 10 billion to run a service like this. If you feel you do, then post your numbers here showing why you think so. Even if they are estimates that's better than nothing.
Quote:
Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
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TheVad
Amarr
Metalworks
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Posted - 2008.11.18 21:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Banker Lucy
Edited by: Banker Lucy on 18/11/2008 20:41:38
Chapter 7 - Bond Structure
There will be 100 bonds issued for 100 million ISK per bond. Depending on interest, it will be all in one block or split into two blocks. There will be a monthly payout of a floating rate of 20% of the profits each month. This is capped at a minimum of 6% and a maximum of 13% per month.
Unless I am reading this wrong, the total monthly payout is 20% of total profits right? What if the profits for the month is 50m? What is the profits are negative?
Do you mean that each bond will be paid 6% interest no matter what(minimum). If 20% of the profit turns out to be greater then the 6% payout, the investor will recieve the extra bonus money up to a max of 13% return on the bond?
TheVad
Project Manager & Chief Editor| www.eve-bank.net
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Banker Lucy
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Posted - 2008.11.18 22:08:00 -
[11]
Yes, that is correct. |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.11.18 22:33:00 -
[12]
Edited by: cosmoray on 18/11/2008 22:35:24
I have always thought about a casino, and I still like the idea. I would run it kind of like EOH who do a really good job.
I would have:
1. An external website
2. Trusted bankers who you deposit with, and they set up the chips on the account
3. Trusted payout mechanism when you want to cash out chips
4. ideally the banker would deposit cash in EBank
5. external auditors who could look at the game mechanics at ANY time to confirm to the customers that the games aren't rigged
6. All games fully transparent, in terms of rules and queries
7. Casino pays bankers to deposit/pay cash
8. Casino run as an IPO, with profits shared via divs - management fee
9. Have a free play chips area and when people want to start they contact a banker in Eve
10. Limit game size to avoid a massive run on a game.
Games to offer:
1. blackjack - 50M per hand limit - casino rules
2. Slots - different ISK plays from 1000ISk - 1M ISk per credit
3. Roulette - max 20M on 1 number - 700M payout by casino (35:1)
Now, I know nothing about designing/setting up a website but that is how I would run a Eve casino.
If someone came up with the casino like above I would happily bankrole it. I would be more than happy to set up a board like EBank with people who MD trust and be happy to have MD opinions on who should be on board, and I would float the casino via IPO with managment taking a fee, and owning some of the shares
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motomysz
Militek Industries
Integrity Respect Selflessness
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Posted - 2008.11.18 22:56:00 -
[13]
Addicts like I are only concerned with one thing... how can I deposit isk so that I can start playing? |
Banker Lucy
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Posted - 2008.11.18 23:00:00 -
[14]
It's in the thread in events, send isk to me. And amarr, the 7 billion isk in one spin is the example. Even if I were to reduce the limit to 100 mil it would still be 3.5 bil in one spin. |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.11.18 23:07:00 -
[15]
thread link to events?
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Banker Lucy
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Posted - 2008.11.19 01:53:00 -
[16]
Had my first high roller come to play today, took 2 billion isk off me on roulette. Statically speaking the casino should have turned a profit of around 2 billion based on the number of times he played but it ended up in a 2 billion isk loss.
Seems like a crappy thing to tell potential investors but over the course of 3 months things will even out. |
Brock Nelson
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.11.19 02:10:00 -
[17]
I might be a potential investor if you were to make your code available for the auditor to view. |
Amon Rhar
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Posted - 2008.11.19 03:31:00 -
[18]
Reserve 100m for me.
I wonder if the past 3 months and if the casino is flourishing, we can continue the investments?
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Banker Lucy
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Posted - 2008.11.19 05:10:00 -
[19]
Still looking for someone to audit. |
Brock Nelson
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.11.19 05:54:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Brock Nelson on 19/11/2008 05:55:06
I would do it but considering how much you're asking, my inexperience with audits and my lack of rep on MD...
Contact either Shar Tegral or Kazuo Ishiguro, however I do believe they require a fee
Put me down for 100 mil, I know its not much but casino scares me ;). Pending audit of course
10% for Returning Customers |
Banker Lucy
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Posted - 2008.11.19 06:01:00 -
[21]
Why would you want to check the coding though? My coding is so ugly it's kinda embarrasing  .
If it is to ensure that the reported casino profits are accurate would it not be easier for me to give the auditor my full API so that he can check the journal logs? The coding would be pointless for this purpose as I can freely modify the database without it.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.11.19 06:06:00 -
[22]
Maybe but if you're going to have bankers and auditors on your team, they need to be able to inspect your game code. This is to ensure that players are making their winnings fairly as well ensuring that you don't code something that ends up giving the player a chance to 'break the bank'
10% for Returning Customers |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.11.19 10:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Banker Lucy
Why would you want to check the coding though? My coding is so ugly it's kinda embarrasing .
If it is to ensure that the reported casino profits are accurate would it not be easier for me to give the auditor my full API so that he can check the journal logs? The coding would be pointless for this purpose as I can freely modify the database without it.
The main problem here is that you could quite easily be in possession of a secret alt account, and someone like the high roller you mentioned a few posts back might just happen to turn up and 'legitimately' win lots of isk from your casino.
I wouldn't completely trust this unless- The code was audited by a trusted third party who understood it perfectly.
- The code was hosted by a trusted third party, preventing you from modifying the live version without going through them.
- Every update triggered a fresh complete audit of the code.
This may seem unreasonably harsh, but with a line or two of code you could very easily tip the odds in favour of a character of your choice, a la Casablanca.
---
Can't afford that BPO? Look here.
20:1 mineral compression
The EVE f@h team |
Lady Amnesia
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Posted - 2008.11.19 12:23:00 -
[24]
Love the idea! Put me down for 500m (pending audit). Make this properly and I see no reason for it not to be well received by the greater Eve community. |
Meg Powers
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.11.19 12:51:00 -
[25]
Interesting idea and I'll reserve 100M pending outcome of audits and discussions regarding code in use.
My view is that without code that is untouchable without additional reviews then how can we know the players have a fair chance (and the investors a fair chance to win their interest)?
Riddle me that and I'll bring more isk, but 100M will do for now,
Meg
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.11.19 13:09:00 -
[26]
Code has to be accessible ANYTIME to an auditor to see that the game is fair.
It is also the only way you will keep customers. |
Brock Nelson
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.11.19 13:39:00 -
[27]
What programming language btw?
10% for Returning Customers |
Banker Lucy
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Posted - 2008.11.19 15:22:00 -
[28]
It's all in PHP. Kuzuo would you be interested in auditing? I would like an audit of the coding so that the general public can see that the games are not rigged. However for the purpose of this bond I'm afraid it would not help. I don't see a way to restrict myself access of the database. All players balances and tracking of profits are stored in the mysql database which I can modify, it also does not log changes.
I think the best way would be to keep track of the isk in-game. I could disclose all my alts and the auditor could keep track of my wallet. Not foolproof but better than keeping track of the code imo.
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Cinta Verick
Amarr
4th Dimension Investments
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Posted - 2008.11.19 15:28:00 -
[29]
Pending the audit I'd like to take a punt on this IPO
Reserve me 2 bonds (200m)
Thanks
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Amon Rhar
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Posted - 2008.11.19 15:34:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
The code was hosted by a trusted third party, preventing you from modifying the live version without going through them.Pending audit
Well I have a web hosting and can host the casino, since I have no relationship with him and who also does not like card games and lucky, then in any way manipulate the results and I can tell here in the forum publicly on any change as he does on the bench or in code.
From nothing mind the casino hosted elsewhere if there was a deferential auditor of code to see if he has not created any page that modifies the database out.
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