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kor anon
Amarr The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.11.20 13:26:00 -
[31]
Edited by: kor anon on 20/11/2008 13:28:03
Originally by: Gojyu
That political correctness has gone so far as allowing people to preach hate and discrimination as says "oh well, we wouldn't want to hurt their sensibilities by rallying against them" is a weakness of today's society, not a strength
I agree totally, but what you have there is preferential treatment. They can say whatever they want, else we're negating their human rights. But if i were to say something opposite i would be branded a rasict
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:10:00 -
[32]
Its not really as strange as all that. It'd be like members of the anti-gay Christian Voice UK trying to go for jobs in gender equality committees. Their personal attitude (as clearly flagged up by supporting a particular organisation) is incompatible with the job in question.
More to the point, every employer in the country has the right to not hire someone based on personal views and personality traits. Its only right- no-one should be forced to hire people they find despicable. The government is an employer too, and they have exactly the same right. If they feel the BNP's policies are not compatible with their own, they're free not to hire party members.
And finally, HM Civil Service has a statutory obligation to remain politically neutral. Senior civil servants have been banned from joining political parties of any sorts (including the mainstream parties) since the '50s. Although junior civil servants are allowed to join political parties, they are expected to remain low-key and non controversial at all times, and are completely forbidden from expressing political opinions while at work. ------
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich You can even get a midget with a camera to sit on the floorboard.
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Sasha Lyre
Gallente Blood Music
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:03:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Davina Braben Edited by: Davina Braben on 20/11/2008 08:12:44
I don't know if you guys abroad are aware but we had a murder a few years ago where a teenager called Stephen Lawrence was stabbed to death by a gang of skinheads. The police investigation and criminal prosecution was fatally flawed and said skinheads walked.
There was later an inquiry and a civil court case and one of the outcomes was that the Met was "institutionally racist". This doesn't just mean that individual officers are racist or that there is an unfortunate canteen culture but that the organisation itself fails to provide the service it should to people because of their skin colour.
Having police officers in the BNP 10 years after this is anywhere from "regrettable" to "a bloody disaster" depending on what those officers are actually doing and what cases they have been involved with.
I'm astonished some of the people on that list did not know better.
This isn't about excluding those organisations from the democracy btw. They're not banned organisations. You can vote for them. Those police officers can vote for them.
I don't know if anyone is aware of this, but at roughly the same time as the above incident, a white teenager was brutally murdered in Glasgow, by a gang of asians, it was later discovered that it was a purely 'racially motivated' murder. Unfortunately it was not reported with the same vehemence as the Stephen Lawrence case and probably never even made the english news. It's not pc or fashionable and possibly not even acceptable to report on racial attacks against 'white people' anymore.
I don't support the bnp, I'm not really that political, but I do find the hypocrisy and moreso the ignorance of the general public, staggering.
The worst people being those with a 'bit' of knowledge who think that they know what Britain is like to live in...
Your Blood Goes to my Head and the Music Flows through my Veins |
Xrak
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.11.20 17:42:00 -
[34]
Quite simply if you are a member of the police force, you should not be allowed to join any political party, OR you should be free to join any political party. Firing someone because they are part of the BNP because their 'views' and your company's are different is like firing someone because they are members of the Labour party and so they must be corrupt and support taking money for peerages.
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Davina Braben
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Posted - 2008.11.20 17:45:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Davina Braben on 20/11/2008 17:46:16 Actually I'm pretty sure I remember that from The Sun at the time. Guy was called "Kriss Donald" apparently.
Did the police fail to investigate that properly so the offenders got away with it because the victim was white? Not from what I'm reading.
In fact it looks like extraordinary efforts were made to extradite some of the killers from a country with no formal extradition treaty.
I'm not sure why you're offering this as a counter-point to my post. I was talking about institutional failings resulting from racism.
Racism can go any number of ways. Didn't say it couldn't.
I'd be saying the same thing about police officers turning up on the membership list of an anti-white organisation if only I could think of one. I wonder how many bobbies and prison officers are on Al Quiada's membership list? |
Dr Slaughter
Minmatar Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.20 17:51:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 20/11/2008 17:54:10 Hang on a minute people...
I believe the law is that you can discriminate against employing someone only if they are likely to cause certain things to happen because, as an example, their religious or political views are known publicly.
In the case of the bus driver he was obviously a risk as he was standing for office. i.e. he became a public figure and suffered the consequences.
Now if the bus driver was just a member of the BNP surely they wouldn't have had any grounds to not hire him etc??
If a police officer, doctor, or teacher isn't standing for public election as a BNP representative surely it would be illegal to fire him/her or refuse to employ them? Their BNP, or other groups membership is immaterial.
When I was at school in Camden the Humanities department was full of raving left wing socialists. We had 5 years of their ideology being rammed down our throats at every opportunity. Our book choices, essay titles, field trips, form reviews, drama projects all had a political skew applied to it. It was totally wrong and should have been unacceptable but the Inner London Education Authority (ILEA) was run by the same set of people, and the Greater London Council (GLC) too.
i.e. the status-quo was socialist left wing
For some reason that's acceptable? WTF. Those teachers, governors, inspectors should have been sacked, it's ironic the same people are now saying what they've all done themselves should be banned.
Back to our police man, teacher, doctor; Obviously if they subsequently acted in a way that broke a law (made a point of always beating up gay irish people) then they would be investigated and would face the consequences of their actions.
What I'm having problems with is that a group of employers appears to be discriminating illegally based on some unilateral opinion of the PRIVATE political views, and not public actions of individuals.
Oh, and they're doing it by using material that was illegally released and in-breach of the data protection act...
Surely that's totally wrong?
There are, obviously, some exceptions that would be valid;
Someone who wants a job as a religious minister who is an atheist or follows a different religion, Judges, and so on, but for the rest of us there are the copious volumes of LAW.
Why are these organizations allowed to ignore it? If someone knows and has links to the actual statutes that allow it, or the cases where the points of law have been made, I'm very interested. Otherwise my conclusion is that we're living in a fascist state run by hypocritical people with a chip on their shoulder about other political views.
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Captain Hudson
Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.11.20 18:30:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Captain Hudson on 20/11/2008 18:34:23
Originally by: Dr Slaughter Without getting into the politics of the BNP (we're not allowed to discuss that on here and in any case I don't know much about them) I'm interesting in why BNP party members are not allowed to work in certain jobs.
Assuming that the person doesn't break the law why can various Unions, quango's and unelected organizations appear to be able to discriminate against people for their political beliefs, and, who exactly are they to rule that someones thoughts and ideals should restrict that persons trade?
Surely that would be illegal, and, you would assume they must also discriminate against certain religious groups for exactly the same reasons.
Something appears to be very very wrong here in the UK....
If you work for the Armed Forces,Police or Prison Service you are obliged to have no political affiliations with anybody. Why? - because you are there to serve everybody no matter what creed they are and being a member of the BNP (whites only) is rather conflicting no?.
Also these people who had their names leaked are so scared for their lives now just makes me laugh, they made their bed now they can lay in it tbh
EDIT - I actually would not be suprised if the BNP released the list themselves so they can get a bit of news time seeing as they are a total waste of space. |
Thorliaron
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.20 18:46:00 -
[38]
This is why no likes BNP |
ouroboros trading
Gallente Medics On Fire
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Posted - 2008.11.20 19:14:00 -
[39]
i don't think there is anything wrong with using a french bank tbh.
(sigh) |
Dr Slaughter
Minmatar Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.20 20:37:00 -
[40]
Originally by: ouroboros trading i don't think there is anything wrong with using a french bank tbh.
(sigh)
Thorliaron - Ce n'est pas de savoir qui aime qui. Le fait que c'est la BNP est sans pertinence. Il s'agit d'hypocrisie, d'enfreindre la loi, et pourquoi certaines personnes semblent penser parce que leurs opinions politiques sont diffTrentes, ils devraient Otre autorisTs a discriminatoires a l'Tgard des autres.
Le capitaine Hudson - je d'accord que les forces armTes, police, administration pTnitentiaire et les juges ne devraient pas avoir d'appartenance politique. Il est trFs Ttrange, cependant, que certains semblent Otre en mesure d'Otre membres de certains partis politiques mais pas d'autres, franchement, qui va pour Otre un membre d'une Union qui a bloquer les droits de vote dans le groupe Labor trop.
Bien entendu, vous pouvez faire ce que vous voulez, mais a rire des gens qui mai maintenant Otre victimes par d'autres parce que quelqu'un distribuT illTgalement leurs dTtails ne vous montre dans une lumiFre trFs pauvres. |
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Gojyu
Ever Flow Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.20 22:31:00 -
[41]
Quote:
If a police officer, doctor, or teacher isn't standing for public election as a BNP representative surely it would be illegal to fire him/her or refuse to employ them? Their BNP, or other groups membership is immaterial.
Nope. Police are specifically prohibited from joining the bnp (it'd be like an american cop being a member of the ***). As for any other job, uk courts have ruled that membership of a racist organisation does not constitute a valid philosophical or religious belief, and is not a racial prejudice. The United Kingdom also does not consider discrimination against a political belief unlawful
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Dr Slaughter
Minmatar Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.20 23:12:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Gojyu Nope. Police are specifically prohibited from joining the bnp (it'd be like an american cop being a member of the ***). As for any other job, uk courts have ruled that membership of a racist organisation does not constitute a valid philosophical or religious belief, and is not a racial prejudice.
The police may be specifically prohibited by their association (ACPO's statement on this is here) but is it actually legal?
I would suggest that it isn't legal at all and the very act that they say their trying to abide by they are actually breaking.
Originally by: Gojyu The United Kingdom also does not consider discrimination against a political belief unlawful
Your statement appears to be incorrect.
Quote: The Equality Act 2006 is set to clarify the law on religion or belief discrimination. The Act changes the existing definition of religion and belief set out in the Employment Equality (Religion or Belief) Regulations 2003.
Now at first you think.. ah.. it's only religion.. but
Quote: A Regulation 2(1) of the Employment Equality (Religion or Belief) Regulations 2003 (the regulations), defines religion or belief as "any religion, religious belief, or similar philosophical belief". The explanatory notes to the regulations state that the reference to "similar philosophical belief" does not include any philosophical or political belief unless it is similar to a religious belief, but the Equality Act 2006 amends this definition by removing the word 'similar'. Under the new definition, "belief means any religious or philosophical belief". This change will, therefore, considerably widen the scope of what might be regarded as a philosophical belief as any genuine philosophical belief, including political beliefs, will be covered.
Rather than quoting more I will point you to the article and this one in particular.
I really don't want to get hung up on the BNP in this thread I'm just trying to get to the bottom of the legality of this issue. As others have stated in this thread it appears a lot of people have assumptions based on incorrect information.
Any HR / Lawyers out there care to comment? |
nahtoh
Caldari StrikerCorp Dark Trinity Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.20 23:21:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Davina Braben Edited by: Davina Braben on 20/11/2008 17:46:16 Actually I'm pretty sure I remember that from The Sun at the time. Guy was called "Kriss Donald" apparently.
Did the police fail to investigate that properly so the offenders got away with it because the victim was white? Not from what I'm reading.
In fact it looks like extraordinary efforts were made to extradite some of the killers from a country with no formal extradition treaty.
I'm not sure why you're offering this as a counter-point to my post. I was talking about institutional failings resulting from racism.
Racism can go any number of ways. Didn't say it couldn't.
I'd be saying the same thing about police officers turning up on the membership list of an anti-white organisation if only I could think of one. I wonder how many bobbies and prison officers are on Al Quiada's membership list?
The first reports were that it was not a racilly motivated attack...which unfotuntly is the first response for a lot of mionorty crimes against non-majority crimes...pity the reverse is pretty much standard.
And your last strawman is pretty pathitic BTW...one is a allowed political party...the other is a proscribed org...
Woulod the same prosription got for mbrs of SHAC or the ALF? or how about radicial gay groups? (The shrill harpies that will proclaim that having a ***** is going equiped for **** or all hetrosexual intercourse is ****?). ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Thorliaron
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.20 23:46:00 -
[44]
french people talking about racial parties and problems is just wrong, sort your own house out first then worry about the uk's.
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Dr Slaughter
Minmatar Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.20 23:53:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 20/11/2008 23:57:23 After reading more, and unless someone else comes up with something to prove otherwise, I've got my answer.
1. It's illegal to discriminate against someone for their political beliefs if you're an employer with a few limited exceptions (see the bus driver above).
2. You can discriminate against someone from joining (or subsequently expel them) your organisation (such as a Union or trade body) as a case was won against the UK Government in the European Court of Human Rights by one of the Unions which changed the Trade Unions and Labour Relations Act.
So ACPO's (a trade association) to ban police from being BNP members is dubious at best unless a police officer was being racist in his job or was publically known to be a member of the BNP.
That last point is probably why the list was released.
It gives people who hate the BNP a way to legally argue that everyone on the list is potentially in physical danger (see the bus man) or might put fellow workers or customers in danger/or bring the employer into disrepute as their political belief is now 'public knowledge' and thus they should be fired/made redundant.
Pretty screwed up. Will be interesting to see what happens next.
-- and Thorliaron, just for you: Je ne suis pas frantais, je suis anglais, je viens d'utiliser google pour le fun! ~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest. |
Davina Braben
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Posted - 2008.11.21 01:27:00 -
[46]
Originally by: nahtoh
Originally by: Davina Braben Edited by: Davina Braben on 20/11/2008 17:46:16 Actually I'm pretty sure I remember that from The Sun at the time. Guy was called "Kriss Donald" apparently.
Did the police fail to investigate that properly so the offenders got away with it because the victim was white? Not from what I'm reading.
In fact it looks like extraordinary efforts were made to extradite some of the killers from a country with no formal extradition treaty.
I'm not sure why you're offering this as a counter-point to my post. I was talking about institutional failings resulting from racism.
Racism can go any number of ways. Didn't say it couldn't.
I'd be saying the same thing about police officers turning up on the membership list of an anti-white organisation if only I could think of one. I wonder how many bobbies and prison officers are on Al Quiada's membership list?
The first reports were that it was not a racilly motivated attack...which unfotuntly is the first response for a lot of mionorty crimes against non-majority crimes...pity the reverse is pretty much standard.
And your last strawman is pretty pathitic BTW...one is a allowed political party...the other is a proscribed org...
Woulod the same prosription got for mbrs of SHAC or the ALF? or how about radicial gay groups? (The shrill harpies that will proclaim that having a ***** is going equiped for **** or all hetrosexual intercourse is ****?).
I pointed out that they weren't a proscribed organisation earlier in the thread. AQ were just the first organisation that sprang to mind who really don't like "White european males". Maybe Nation of Islam is a better point of comparison.
You missed the point with the Kriss Donald thing. The relevant part of what I said about the Lawrence case was to do with the Macpherson report. The press are never even handed about anything. It's like missing white woman syndrome.
I'd imagine that membership of ALF or SHAC would probably present problems for a police officer, yes. I don't know if they're on any list of groups you can't be a member of but I imagine they'd not help your promotion prospects any. The other groups I haven't heard of engaging in arson (maybe arse-on) or intimidation so I don't know.
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nahtoh
Caldari StrikerCorp Dark Trinity Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.21 04:29:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Davina Braben
I pointed out that they weren't a proscribed organisation earlier in the thread. AQ were just the first organisation that sprang to mind who really don't like "White european males". Maybe Nation of Islam is a better point of comparison.
You missed the point with the Kriss Donald thing. The relevant part of what I said about the Lawrence case was to do with the Macpherson report. The press are never even handed about anything. It's like missing white woman syndrome.
I'd imagine that membership of ALF or SHAC would probably present problems for a police officer, yes. I don't know if they're on any list of groups you can't be a member of but I imagine they'd not help your promotion prospects any. The other groups I haven't heard of engaging in arson (maybe arse-on) or intimidation so I don't know.
If the resoning behind it is to make sure that the mbrs of the orgs that have these requirements do not use their position to spread their possably ectreme views they should include perhaps social services...theres been some very dodgy calls made one in yorkshire, one in wales and then there was the great big ****up in the orkney isles.
If its required for one group then its required for all. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Davina Braben
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Posted - 2008.11.21 09:19:00 -
[48]
Originally by: nahtoh
Originally by: Davina Braben
I pointed out that they weren't a proscribed organisation earlier in the thread. AQ were just the first organisation that sprang to mind who really don't like "White european males". Maybe Nation of Islam is a better point of comparison.
You missed the point with the Kriss Donald thing. The relevant part of what I said about the Lawrence case was to do with the Macpherson report. The press are never even handed about anything. It's like missing white woman syndrome.
I'd imagine that membership of ALF or SHAC would probably present problems for a police officer, yes. I don't know if they're on any list of groups you can't be a member of but I imagine they'd not help your promotion prospects any. The other groups I haven't heard of engaging in arson (maybe arse-on) or intimidation so I don't know.
If the resoning behind it is to make sure that the mbrs of the orgs that have these requirements do not use their position to spread their possably ectreme views they should include perhaps social services...theres been some very dodgy calls made one in yorkshire, one in wales and then there was the great big ****up in the orkney isles.
If its required for one group then its required for all.
Well for the police-
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2003/20030527.htm
Quote: SCHEDULE 1 Regulation 6
RESTRICTIONS ON THE PRIVATE LIFE OF MEMBERS OF POLICE FORCES
1. A member of a police force shall at all times abstain from any activity which is likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of his duties or which is likely to give rise to the impression amongst members of the public that it may so interfere; and in particular a member of a police force shall not take any active part in politics.
So it's more about conflict of interest. Some forces specifically list the BNP, NF and C18 as being organisations you can't be a member of under the same section about avoiding conflicts of interest. They also have stuff like paying your debts promptly and not having business interests which conflict.
Orkney... are you talking about a series of weird child abuse allegations in the 80's-90's? |
TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance
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Posted - 2008.11.21 09:34:00 -
[49]
Its not really like suppressing the BNP would work, the suppression of any movement has almost always been counter productive to its removal of ideals from society.
As Britain gradually becomes more of a diverse society and citizens become used to it, these **** groups will slowly disappear. |
ouroboros trading
Gallente Medics On Fire
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Posted - 2008.11.21 12:55:00 -
[50]
Originally by: TimMc
As Britain gradually becomes more of a diverse society and citizens become used to it, these **** groups will slowly disappear.
i hate diversity when it's all so much crap.
bring food, bring music, bring your language. bring yourselves. leave religion at the door otherwise yer gonna **** all the wrong people off kthx. |
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Davina Braben
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Posted - 2008.11.21 15:03:00 -
[51]
Tish pish.
Great Britain has always been about diversity.
Our culture is riddled with bits of other people's we stole.
Ditto our language.
The "English" actually aren't because England used to drop her knickers for anyone with a fancy longboat / vast horde of frenchmen / etc.
I don't even think there is a coherent national identity outside of stuff like sport and even that's a bit complicated because in the world cup it's England but in the olympics it's great Britain.
I say this as someone who is as English as tea, curry and chips
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Voltain
BEER Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.21 15:17:00 -
[52]
If Police officers in the UK aren't allowed to have political alignments, why do they have a vote?
The BNP may leave a sour taste in my mouth, but they are a legitimate political party.
The current Labour government allowed the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. Which of these two are responsible for the deaths of countless civilians?
My Country is going crazy.
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ouroboros trading
Gallente Medics On Fire
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Posted - 2008.11.21 15:55:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Davina Braben Tish pish.
Great Britain has always been about diversity.
Our culture is riddled with bits of other people's we stole.
Ditto our language.
The "English" actually aren't because England used to drop her knickers for anyone with a fancy longboat / vast horde of frenchmen / etc.
I don't even think there is a coherent national identity outside of stuff like sport and even that's a bit complicated because in the world cup it's England but in the olympics it's great Britain.
I say this as someone who is as English as tea, curry and chips
don't equate ethnicity with culture, or chaos for diversity. and certainly don't think it's all equal.
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ouroboros trading
Gallente Medics On Fire
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Posted - 2008.11.21 15:59:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Voltain If Police officers in the UK aren't allowed to have political alignments, why do they have a vote?
The BNP may leave a sour taste in my mouth, but they are a legitimate political party.
The current Labour government allowed the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. Which of these two are responsible for the deaths of countless civilians?
My Country is going crazy.
i actually joined the labour party then realised what a total NUTFEST (no pun on the NUT intended lol)political parties are.
i actually did a keanu-reeves level whoa.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
the amount of doublethink that goes on, christ on a ****ing bike.
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TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance
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Posted - 2008.11.21 16:46:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Davina Braben I say this as someone who is as English as tea, curry and chips
lol great line. Britain has no real identity other than if you weren't born here, then your not british (or english, whatever.. since we are so not a United Kingdom). I'm American but lived in and loved Britain for most my life, but I am still considered an American. |
Dr Slaughter
Minmatar Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.21 17:03:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 21/11/2008 17:05:24
Originally by: Davina Braben
Well for the police-
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2003/20030527.htm
Quote: SCHEDULE 1 Regulation 6
RESTRICTIONS ON THE PRIVATE LIFE OF MEMBERS OF POLICE FORCES
1. A member of a police force shall at all times abstain from any activity which is likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of his duties or which is likely to give rise to the impression amongst members of the public that it may so interfere; and in particular a member of a police force shall not take any active part in politics.
So if the BNP (or other) member is not acting as a party activist (just a member who pays their membership fee, reads some of the books/website, and doesn't go on marches, attend public meetings etc.), and the public don't know they're a member, this restriction would not effect them.
Of course that's one of the reasons the list has been leaked. If the public know who's who.. that restriction can be applied.
I wonder if the SI would fail when put up against the ECHR though?
In any case it will be interesting to see what happens next.
ps. 'likely' is a poor test as it's entirely subjective. If their record is exemplary in all respects 'likely' would probably fail miserably in front of a judge. |
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