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Tech II rigs. Why that expensive?

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CCP Applebabe	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:28:00 - [31] Thanks. Re-moved to " Ships & Modules" channel. Applebabe Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang

Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:41:00 - [32] Originally by: Abrazzar In my humble opinion salvaging and rigs should be reworked when T1 components come out. Then salvaging will yield T1 or T2 construction components instead of the current salvage pieces and rigs are built out of those components. Granted, it'd nerf the salvaging mini-profession but it make much more sense in regards to what rigs are and what they are made out of. I mean, why not just build a ship and disassemble it for the 'salvage' parts needed for rigs? With T1 components it becomes even more unreasonable that you can't do this. Salvaging would still be a profitable profession, just no longer so separated from all other production types. Existing Salvage can be transformed into appropriate amounts of fitting components with a script running over the database during the patch. awww ffs did CCP take that t1 component idea seriously.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:43:00 - [33] simple boost to 0.0 would be rigged ships drop more slavage based on how many rigs they have. simple, effective. what do you think.
Vyktor Abyss IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.28 11:01:00 - [34] Jason Edwards - morons like you should just stop posting and go play Warcraft. The dev posts a very logical and sane post about resolving some issues with salvage (and hence rig prices) by adding differnet rig sizes, and you post a completely moronic rant about mining rigs with an incredibly arrogant tone as if you know better than them. Please think before you post, then think again, again, and again until you don't sound so *****ed. Ta. Now that the unpleasantness is over I'll get on with my post: Since inception the real issue with rigs has been one size fits all hulls, making rigs ridiculously expensive to fit on frigates relative to bigger ships such as battleships etc. Rigs themselves have never been brilliantly balanced cough* polycarbons cough, given the across the board "pre-nerfed" penalties/bonuses on certain rigs compared to others such as Energy Rigs. This badly needs addressing when they revisit rigs (Spring 2009? I'll believe it when I see it. Too optimistic if you ask me considering T3 and all the other stuff for them to do) The salvage itself has been tweaked over time to make some salvage more useful than the rest - this is good, it creates good markets although it definately needs tweaking further since there are a lot of relatively useless salvage components that sell for less than 1 ISK. One question I have is if salvage itself be split into size categories or just rigs? For example S, M, L Capacitor Consoles and the like - If this is the case - What will happen to the existing salvage? I'm looking forward to the changes, but please CCP, more importantly than rushing it out - make it balanced. I hate having well researched rig BPOs for things that just will NEVER be usefull thanks to the over the top penalty, weak bonus compared to other more useful rigs you can build with the same salvage. Thanks.
Eve Spair Caldari Black Mesa	Posted - 2008.11.28 11:02:00 - [35] I'll just continue to run my high sec lvl 3 missions with T2 salvage in them. But im not gonna tell which agent im using as i dont want more competition for my valuable parts :)
Lara Dantreb New Horizons	Posted - 2008.11.28 11:16:00 - [36] Why not make the low-sec npcs drop small quantities of T2 salvage ? make low-sec more attractive !
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.28 11:33:00 - [37] Isnt the main source of T2 salvage blown up T2 ships as in the kind players fly?
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.11.28 11:46:00 - [38] Originally by: Hyveres Isnt the main source of T2 salvage blown up T2 ships as in the kind players fly? Not realy in my opinion, most common T2 Ships(Ceptors, HACs, Recons) only drop very low quantitys, often not even worth salvaging(because of the time needet to do so) in return of the 300-800k you will get out of it in most cases. Dooing explorations or plexes instead yielding a more constant amount of T2 Rig Parts, even ratting for Faction spawns does give out some(but only realy worth cruiser+, frigs atm do drop them not that often). ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.28 12:01:00 - [39] Originally by: CCP Chronotis There are a few changes in the pipes which help in this regard. Firstly we want to introduce size variant rigs and secondly salvage conversion so some quantity of broken salvage can be converted to intact T2 salvage. Beyond that the spring expansion will have rather a lot of content in it so it would not be unimaginable that other changes will be made there as well but certainly salvage conversion is something we have wanted for a long time. I really, REALLY like the sound of this. I don't want to set the world on fire
God's Secret	Posted - 2008.11.28 12:06:00 - [40] Originally by: CCP Chronotis There are a few changes in the pipes which help in this regard. Firstly we want to introduce size variant rigs and secondly salvage conversion so some quantity of broken salvage can be converted to intact T2 salvage. Beyond that the spring expansion will have rather a lot of content in it so it would not be unimaginable that other changes will be made there as well but certainly salvage conversion is something we have wanted for a long time. <3 a sexy man is.. well.. a sexy man..
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2008.11.28 12:18:00 - [41] Originally by: CCP Chronotis There are a few changes in the pipes which help in this regard. Firstly we want to introduce size variant rigs and secondly salvage conversion so some quantity of broken salvage can be converted to intact T2 salvage. Beyond that the spring expansion will have rather a lot of content in it so it would not be unimaginable that other changes will be made there as well but certainly salvage conversion is something we have wanted for a long time. Thats some mighty fine foreforth from CCP on an issue thats been braught up a few times over the months. Glad its been looked at. Now when you mean size variants, I assume you mean that there will be Frigate+Destroyer, Cruiser+Battlecruiser, Battleship, Capital sized rigs? Will these have the same stats as they have now but vary in the amount of salvage materials required for their production? At this point in time, although T1 frigates have 3 rig slots, because they are cheaper and expendable ships, to throw 5-30m in rigs onto it would be lunacy. If you were to drop the a rig to something more appropriate in regards to materials E.g. Cargohold Optimization I Current: Alloyed Tritanium Bar- 110, Fried Interface Circuit- 130, Tripped Power Circuit 75 Frigate T1&T2, Destroyer T1: ATB 11, FIC 13, TPC 7 Cruiser T1&T2, Destroyer T2, Industrial T1&T2, Mining Barges T1, Battlecruiser T1: ATB 55, FIC 65, TPC 38 Battlecruiser T2, Battleship T1, Mining Barges T2: Same as Current. Battleship T2, Capitals: ATB 220, FIC 260, TPC 150 If you mean something like this then I am all for it, that would be a reasonable way to put it. As for T2 salvage, sure having a way to make T2 salvage would be sweet, something tho that I hopy you don't water down too much so as to make the T2 rigs like T2 modules are now, mandatory.
Chaos Hellbreth	Posted - 2008.12.03 19:27:00 - [42] You should give drone region rats a higher drop ratio of T2 salvage. Thats the best option :whistles:
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2008.12.03 20:16:00 - [43] Originally by: MotherMoon simple boost to 0.0 would be rigged ships drop more slavage based on how many rigs they have. simple, effective. what do you think. Hmm. I'd like to see a meaningful difference in loot drop from rigged ships and unrigged ones. On the other hand any extra amount of materials you re-introduce into the market is going to accelerate price degradation, so that might be rather dangerous territory.
sandamar Gallente Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.04 01:59:00 - [44] Ofc tII rig are very expansive but I don't see the problem. Take a tech I module take it tech II variation do : price of tech I/ price of tech II you get a ratio, Then do the same for tI rig and tII rigs and you got close to the same ratio. Going from tI rig to tII you're looking for multiplying the price by 10-20 isn't it the same for tII module or tII ship, An omen cost something like 4 millions and a zealot cost 70-80 which is 20 times the tI price. The CCC cost maybe 20 mils and the CCCII cost like 400-500 which is still arround 20 times the price. So I don't see the problem here. To me if you want to reduce the price for tII you have to reduce the price for tI aswell.
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.12.04 02:11:00 - [45] Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth You should give drone region rats a higher drop ratio of T2 salvage. Thats the best option :whistles: This would be pure win! ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
Walker Bulldog VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2008.12.04 05:26:00 - [46] Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth You should give drone region rats a higher drop ratio of T2 salvage. Thats the best option :whistles: My name is Walker Bulldog and I approve of this post.
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.12.04 06:06:00 - [47] Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth You should give drone region rats a higher drop ratio of T2 salvage. Thats the best option :whistles: Do want! ------------------------------------------ "Russian is an unusual language if you're not used to it. It is like speaking to angry aliens from the planet of Murder or something" Nick Breckon
Lauri Andromedae	Posted - 2008.12.04 07:11:00 - [48] Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 24/11/2008 10:16:54 Originally by: Rivqua There is no price set on rigs, its totally player controlled. Strictly it's CCP controlled. They control what drops, where, how much, and that in turn determines rarity; supply & demand does the rest. The OP clearly would like drops to increase or be more available. If rigs are supposed to be a rich kids toy and ISK sink, then bad idea. If they're supposed to be a more available flexible system, available to those without billions, then might be a good idea. All depends where CCP see rigs going. Players control it by takind down ships in PVP. CCP controls the BPC drops, and they are cheap.
Tesal Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.12.04 08:00:00 - [49] Power Circuits and Logic Circuits have been crashing for a couple of months and are down to a fraction of their former value. Capacitor consoles on the other hand have more than doubled to make up for it. Some T2 salvage sells for less than many T1 salvage because those rigs are simply not in demand. When it comes down to it, there are only a few rigs people want, and those are in extremely high demand, the rest of the rigs are rarely, if ever, used because the drawbacks are too large. Part of the problem with the current rigs are that the most popular ones don't have anything in the way of serious drawbacks, like fitting a shield rig on a BS that penalizes its signature radius (its a huge ship already, it doesn't really matter), so people buy a ton of them, and the price skyrockets. The rest of the rigs, I don't even think people train the skills to use them because they don't really serve a purpose, like drone rigs for example, which suck up CPU as a penalty affecting your ability to fit guns and is only useful on a Dominix or carrier in rare situations, or weapon rigs which hurt your power grid so badly that often you can get almost as much firepower without the rig by just fitting bigger guns. I think it is mostly capital ship pilots, and insanely rich mission runners that use the "nice" T2 rigs (like Capacitor Control Circuit II). People like the cap, armor, speed or shield rigs. A few other rigs are used for non-combat uses, but there the penalty is irrelevant because they don't have to max out their fittings. So in summary, the cost isn't just a function of salvage supply, its also a function of usefulness. If you doubled the capacitor console salvage supply, I doubt the price would drop too much, demand is simply too high. It would only suck up more logic circuit and power circuit, and the price gain from those would equalize with the price drop from the capacitor consoles, so you might only see a moderate drop in price. So you can get cheap T2 rigs, the only problem is that they are all completely useless to the point where its not worth training the skills to use them. And if you want nice rigs, you have to pay. In my mind, the simplest way to fix rigs, is to fix the rig skill. I would change it to a level 4 skill and improve the reduction in penalties so that if you trained it to V for each category, the corresponding rigs would be useful to fit on a ship, perhaps with near 0 penalty. Or perhaps introduce an advanced rigging skill that would do the same thing. If that happened you would find cheap rigs that are highly effective. This in turn may take some pressure off the shield, cap and armor rigs so they drop a bit in price. I think this would broaden the rig market, and give people a chance to make new stuff as well and I might be able to sell my vast pile of broken drone transcievers .
Tesal Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.12.04 08:18:00 - [50] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss ...One question I have is if salvage itself be split into size categories or just rigs? For example S, M, L Capacitor Consoles and the like - If this is the case - What will happen to the existing salvage? I'm looking forward to the changes, but please CCP, more importantly than rushing it out - make it balanced. I hate having well researched rig BPOs for things that just will NEVER be usefull thanks to the over the top penalty, weak bonus compared to other more useful rigs you can build with the same salvage. Thanks. If that is the case, they should just shrink the bonus of each rig, and add more rig slots to each ship, depending on size. That way, they don't have to mess with BPO, either that or allow rigs to be fitted like ammo, with more than one in a slot, maybe a cap ship would need 10 rigs to fill a slot, and a BS 5 rigs, cruiser 2, frig 1, something like that. I would like to see rigs be removable, like scripts, so you can actually swap them out in flight. I think the permanence of rigs prevents people from spending isk on a specialty setup.
Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.12.04 09:04:00 - [51] With the influx of AF:s fighting it out in lowsec i have noticed that i can yield alot of t2 salvage. Hence i fit my prober alt out with a salvager. WTS: Intact Armor Plates
Serra Csylleste	Posted - 2008.12.04 12:24:00 - [52] Although I personally am by far unable to afford the T2 rigs, I personally see nothing wrong with the prices of them. Though in many cases I do not think the T2 variant is significantly stronger than the T1 root to justify such a major difference in price. Given, if there was much more of a difference between the two, the players able to afford T2 rigs would be nearly untouchable...but a slightly greater margin would certainly peak my interest. Benefit vs. cost at present, I personally have no interest in T2 rigs, and they are just not worth it. Most T2 ships with full T2 fits can be replaced, uninsured, than you can by the 2 T2 rigs to go in it. Not really that appealing when you think about it...
Rivqua Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.12.04 12:26:00 - [53] Alot of the T2 rigs are pure awesome, and only cost 35-50 mil, it's just that people can't really figure out how to use them, and focus on the standard Trimark/Nanobot/Aux Pump & Shield Variants / CCC. There are so many useful and perfectly accesible T2 rigs. /Riv
Clansworth Burning Sky Labs Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.04 12:41:00 - [54] I have a possible option for increasing intact salvage in the game. How about the modules on a ship go into the salvage drop calculation? Obviously, still random, but this would mean that tech II modules would have a chance of putting intact salvage into a wreck, even off a tech 1 shipwreck. This would increase the general supply of Intact Salvage, and reduce the cost of tech ii rigs down from their insanely exclusive level. (exclusivity is fine, but currently, the price is SOOO much more than the added benefit the tech ii provides) POS Personal Storage
UniTwo	Posted - 2008.12.04 13:03:00 - [55] Recently i salvaged jerdola wreck, and what a surprise! 15 nice Intact plates. Well they worth a fortune, how can u say, with 2min of salvaging u gain almost 200M in salvage. Keep T2 salvage has it is.... i like to see Kill mails in aliance KB with dumb ass's putting T2 rigs in theire Sabre's. One other thing, it was nice to see a ''salvage agent'' ... like R&D. I dont know if it is stupid, but its just a thought. Cumpz :)
evs Genco Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:51:00 - [56] bah if you really want t2 salvage parts go fly around 0.0, most ships that are popped at gates (in small fights) it seems arent salvaged, although only having salvage L3 sucks major balls, it took me more than 70 tries to salvage a inty wreck, i got a metal scrap and an intact armor plate over it i reallly need to train salvage L4
Kell Braugh Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.01.19 20:45:00 - [57] And yet again, you guys have it backwards. Its not that the t1 salvage is useless, its that the rigs that require some of the salvage are practically useless. If you look at the selection of rigs available now, there are about 10, maybe 15 rigs that are "popular", about 20 that are super niche, but still bought from time to time. Then a good 30 or so that no one ever buys in their right mind becuase they are utterly useless and a waste of a rig slot/calibration and the only sales come from people mistaking the item for something else (as MUST be the case for my ability to sell signal disruption amplifier I rigs in jita becuase if you got cap issues running ecm, you got bigger issues than rig selection). Yes, rig sizing will be cool. It will open up viable frig fits that today would costs 60+ mil in rigs alone. I would hope its like most other items and the required materials work in a ratio of: small2 = medium 2 = large, making the small varient of like a CCC rig in the 5 mil isk area. Lastly, the rig and salvage market is player controlled. Yes ccp, decide how much salvage drops, but we decide how much that salvage is worth, and its not based on frequency or gross amount dropped. Look at Alloyed trit bars. They were mad mad expensive becuase everyone wanted polys, yet dropped almost by the half dozen in most 0.0 belts. CCP didn't make allyed trit bars expensive, the player base did but wanting polys soo bad, but focusing over 70% of its ratting and mission running in Caldari space where they didn't drop as much. To the OP, T2 rigs are just fine. Compare any other mod with its variations and you will find the price is in line. Hell people in mission hubs will pay over 1500% more for a shield boost amplifier with like 2% more boost. T2 are 5% better than T1.
Letrange Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.19 22:00:00 - [58] sigh For a good while I was getting regular T2 salvage in high sec. The drone region should be swimming it it. Time for a clue by four: Sentient Drones. They all salvage to T2 Salvage. Reason I don't get as much now? Working on a different NPC corp. If I needed some more I'd go back to the T2 salvage source.
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.20 21:12:00 - [59] Originally by: Letrange For a good while I was getting regular T2 salvage in high sec. The drone region should be swimming it it. Time for a clue by four: Sentient Drones. They all salvage to T2 Salvage. Reason I don't get as much now? Working on a different NPC corp. If I needed some more I'd go back to the T2 salvage source. IIRC all "Commander" class NPC spawns give Tech II (or "intact") Salvage materials. I hope that hasn't changed. Funnily enough, I flew past a Amarr Command Ship wreck yesterday and got thirty million ISK for the thirty seconds trouble of my salvaging it. Originally by: CCP Chronotis There are a few changes in the pipes which help in this regard. Firstly we want to introduce size variant rigs and secondly salvage conversion so some quantity of broken salvage can be converted to intact T2 salvage. Beyond that the spring expansion will have rather a lot of content in it so it would not be unimaginable that other changes will be made there as well but certainly salvage conversion is something we have wanted for a long time. Nothing that I didn't already know by now, but two general sets of questions I've been meaning to ask about it all, 1) The introduction of size variant rigs: any idea how this could affect existing rigs sitting in hangars and how it would be addressed? Is everyone going to get a rude surprise when they login after the patch and find what are quite literally "smaller" rigs instead of something they could have fitted onto a Battleship the day before? That is, assuming concrete ship class restrictions and not scaling effects of rigs v.s. the rig "size". 2) Based on the mechanism you've presented of salvage conversion so some quantity of broken salvage can be converted to the intact T2 salvage, is there going to be any mechanism to ultimately hinder the somewhat obvious possibility of identifying the currently high value/high demand T2 salvage with currently low value/abundant T1 salvage counterparts and building supply stores of it for eventual profiteering under the potential system? Or are we going to see something similar to "alchemy", in that it is simply much more expensive or more troublesome to manufacture intact salvage components from the T1 variants?
Valya Dire	Posted - 2009.01.20 22:34:00 - [60] Originally by: CCP Chronotis ...introduce size variant rigs... Veni

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