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Market Checkerr
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Posted - 2008.11.25 06:17:00 -
[1]
real world money has ingame ISK value, ingame ISK does not have real world value.
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Guth
Fatalix Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 06:19:00 -
[2]
Depends what chinese-owned website you go to when the rent for your apartment comes up unexpected
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Alt Sauce
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Posted - 2008.11.25 06:20:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Market Checkerr real world money has ingame ISK value, ingame ISK does not have real world value.
I'll alert the media. _________ |
Khemul Zula
Amarr Black Plague.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 06:34:00 -
[4]
I was losing sleep over that question. Thank you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Did I really need certificates to tell me I lack Basic Core Competency? |
EnslaverOfMinmatar
Yarsk Hunters DeaDSpace Coalition
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Posted - 2008.11.25 06:45:00 -
[5]
ISK = ISK, but ISK =/= ISK? uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2008.11.25 06:47:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 25/11/2008 06:50:39
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar ISK = ISK, but ISK =/= ISK?
No no, ISK = ISK if ISK is used to get ISK, but ISK can not be used to obtain ISK, unless ISK is used to get ISK in a non-intended manner, like ISK selling.
Which means, ISK = ISK unless ISK is ISK in which case ISK =/= ISK.
Now go "Oooh." and walk away
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
EnslaverOfMinmatar
Yarsk Hunters DeaDSpace Coalition
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Posted - 2008.11.25 06:59:00 -
[7]
Oooh. uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ
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Epegi Givo
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.25 07:07:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 25/11/2008 06:50:39
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar ISK = ISK, but ISK =/= ISK?
No no, ISK = ISK if ISK is used to get ISK, but ISK can not be used to obtain ISK, unless ISK is used to get ISK in a non-intended manner, like ISK selling.
Which means, ISK = ISK unless ISK is ISK in which case ISK =/= ISK.
Now go "Oooh." and walk away
Oooh
*sits down and waits for more reasons to go "oooh"* -------------------------------------
Originally by: Karrade Krise
Originally by: Epegi Givo
This is my sig, or is it?
Now the only thing I can think of are Yard Gnome Ninjas...
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 08:09:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Market Checkerr real world money has ingame ISK value, ingame ISK does not have real world value.
Sure you don't mean ISK =/= RL money?
And last time I checked, 580 million ISK got me a 35USD GTC.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2008.11.25 08:25:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Pohbis And last time I checked, 580 million ISK got me a 35USD GTC.
Only if you go against the EULA etc basic principles.
You can buy a GTC to get ISK, but you can't sell a GTC(bought ingame) to get money.
You can, but you shouldn't.
I explained this, why won't people listen
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.25 08:40:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
I explained this, why won't people listen
Don't you think that's asking a bit much?
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 10:24:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Pohbis on 25/11/2008 10:24:18
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Originally by: Pohbis And last time I checked, 580 million ISK got me a 35USD GTC.
Only if you go against the EULA etc basic principles.
What? It's against the EULA to buy a GTC?
I think you're missing the point here.
A gametime PLEX, or GTC code, is generated by a GTC worth 35USD. It has a real-world value. That fact that you can't buy anything else than GTCs with ISK doesn't matter.
A GTC costs 35USD. CPP sells them, 3rd party webistes sell them. They cost 35USD. USD is a real world currency.
I can buy that GTC worth real-world currency with in-game ISK, thus, my ISK has real-world value. If I wouldn't pay with ISK, I would have to pay 35USD from my salary. So to me, and everyone else buying GTCs, ISK has real-world value.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2008.11.25 10:27:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 25/11/2008 10:47:00
Originally by: Pohbis I can buy that GTC worth real-world currency with in-game ISK, thus, my ISK has real-world value. If I wouldn't pay with ISK, I would have to pay 35USD from my salary. So to me, and everyone else buying GTCs, ISK has real-world value.
It only has real world value if you sell it.
You can't sell a PLEX for money. It's an ingame feature, you can't sell ingame stuff.
It has only ISK value.
A GTC costs money, a PLEX costs ISK. A PLEX, if within the EULA(etc), does not have real world value.
GTC is not PLEX.
You can sell a GTC however you like, free trade and all(actually was wrong about not being able to sell a GTC, you can if you're a legit trader(like gameshops) but if i remember correctly, CCP doesn't condone selling GTCs by privates), but at no point are you selling ISK for real life cash when you sell a PLEX.
Semantics may say "but i bought it with real moneyz", no you didn't, you bought a GTC for money which you converted into an in-game item, which no longer holds any money value in the real world.
In short:
A GTC is a real life commodity which you can trade as you wish(within rules), it's owned by you. Its real life value is what it is. ISK and PLEXs are internet commodities, you can only trade them ingame, it's owned by CCP. Its real life value is 0.
Once you use your GTC to make PLEXs, you give away all ownership of said commodity.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.25 10:49:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones I explained this, why won't people listen
People listening =/= Eve
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 10:52:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones It only has real world value if you sell it.
You can't sell a PLEX for money. It's an ingame feature, you can't sell ingame stuff.
It has only ISK value.
A GTC costs money, a PLEX costs ISK. A PLEX, if within the EULA(etc), does not have real world value.
GTC is not PLEX.
You can sell a GTC however you like, free trade and all, but at no point are you selling ISK for real life cash when you sell a PLEX.
Semantics may say "but i bought it with real moneyz", no you didn't, you bought a GTC for money which you converted into an in-game item, which no longer holds any money value in the real world.
In short:
A GTC is a real life commodity which you can trade as you wish, it's owned by you. Its real life value is what it is. ISK and PLEXs are internet commodities, you can only trade them ingame, it's owned by CCP. Its real life value is 0.
Once you use your GTC to make PLEXs, you give away all ownership of said commodity.
Nothing you say changes the fact that spending ISK saves you from using your own cash to buy the GTC. Which gives the ISK real world value. If that wasn't the fact, the ISK price for GTC wouldn't follow the value of the USD, which it does. When CCP increased the cost of GTCs. ISk price went up, when the dollar goes up, so does the ISK price.
I don't care how many hoops CCP makes you jump through to "laundry" the transaction.
I know exactly why CCP put GTCs on the in-game market. To disconnect the real world purchase as much as possible from the later GTC for ISK transaction.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2008.11.25 10:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Pohbis Nothing you say changes the fact that spending ISK saves you from using your own cash to buy the GTC. Which gives the ISK real world value. If that wasn't the fact, the ISK price for GTC wouldn't follow the value of the USD, which it does. When CCP increased the cost of GTCs. ISk price went up, when the dollar goes up, so does the ISK price.
I'm not trying to deny the fact that ingame ISK buys you gametime. I'm saying, the ISK you use to trade it has no value.
In essence, the guy selling you a GTC for ISK is a "dummy"(would be in real life trade) who is selling a GTC worth x amount in real life, to an x amount of worthless air.
No matter how many GTCs you buy with isk, doesn't make the ISK worth real life money.
CCP loses no money at any turn ofcourse.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
mahj
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:54:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 25/11/2008 10:58:11
Originally by: Pohbis Nothing you say changes the fact that spending ISK saves you from using your own cash to buy the GTC. Which gives the ISK real world value. If that wasn't the fact, the ISK price for GTC wouldn't follow the value of the USD, which it does. When CCP increased the cost of GTCs. ISk price went up, when the dollar goes up, so does the ISK price.
I'm not trying to deny the fact that ingame ISK buys you gametime. I'm saying, the ISK you use to trade it has no value.
In essence, the guy selling you a GTC for ISK is a "dummy"(would be in real life trade) who is selling a GTC worth x amount in real life, to an x amount of worthless air.
No matter how many GTCs you buy with isk, doesn't make the ISK worth real life money.
CCP loses no money at any turn ofcourse.
Simply because you can buy a real life item worth something(gametime), with currency that has no value, doesn't mean the currency with no value suddenly has value.
It's like me claiming my bag of air now has value, 'cause someone sold me a ferrari for it.
you might want to read up on the dutch case in runescape where a judge decided that "in game items" had a real life value due to if said items are stolen from you, you no longer have use of them, sort of like if your rental car is stolen its still theft as you cant use it anymore. the judge also ignored runescapes EULA as being simple game rules that had no bearing on the case And to think if no one bought in game items with $$ including using isk to buy game time this would have never come up....... You could also pay attention to what Mahj is saying as he obviously has quite a few clues on human behavior. |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2008.11.25 12:01:00 -
[18]
Originally by: mahj you might want to read up on the dutch case in runescape where a judge decided that "in game items" had a real life value due to if said items are stolen from you, you no longer have use of them, sort of like if your rental car is stolen its still theft as you cant use it anymore. the judge also ignored runescapes EULA as being simple game rules that had no bearing on the case And to think if no one bought in game items with $$ including using isk to buy game time this would have never come up.......
I do know the case, and i do find it silly. If the EULA is just a "piece of paper", why bother with it at all. It clearly states that you don't own anything, and if another person steals from you, it can be transferred back with haste.(though in eve stealing is a-ok).
Buying ingame items with $$ is still out of order, not allowed etc. Ill go all judge on this and say "it has no bearing on this case".
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
mahj
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.25 12:45:00 -
[19]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7746094.stm
hmm seems as if players are making it happen, the more they buy the more likely it will be worth real life $$ You could also pay attention to what Mahj is saying as he obviously has quite a few clues on human behavior. |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.11.25 12:46:00 -
[20]
We only pay to play with CCP's toys. We don't pay to have any ownership of those toys. If we misbehave CCP can just take those toys away and throw us out of the kindergarten. That's the deal we agreed on when we signed up.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Ryoji Tanakama
Caldari Firestar Drive Yards
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Posted - 2008.11.25 13:22:00 -
[21]
There's a lot of semantic argument here, but the bottom line is that (even if illegally) i could turn dollars into isk (and it's possible, if however quite lame) then ISK has a value measurable in dollars.
Otherwise ******* has no monetary value, human organs have no monetary value etc. Sad fact is, that last time it made the news in the UK a healthy kidney was worth ú40,000 despite being illegal to sell.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2008.11.25 13:24:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ryoji Tanakama There's a lot of semantic argument here, but the bottom line is that (even if illegally) i could turn dollars into isk (and it's possible, if however quite lame) then ISK has a value measurable in dollars.
There's a difference in cost and value.
A kidney is valuable, no matter if anyone buys it or not, it's a commodity(so to speak).
ISK, is internet space money, not even owned by the person who uses it to buy a GTC. As such, people are exchanging air for real life cash.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Nexus Kinnon
Genos Occidere Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.25 13:25:00 -
[23]
thanks for explaining the obvious champ, you've provided a great service to this here forum
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Nexus Kinnon
Genos Occidere Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.25 13:26:00 -
[24]
although to be fair, most general discussion posters do lack basic critical thinking skills so maybe your post did have a point.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2008.11.25 13:26:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon thanks for explaining the obvious champ, you've provided a great service to this here forum
Evidently it's not so obvious...
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Baldour Ngarr
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.11.25 13:39:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Originally by: Pohbis And last time I checked, 580 million ISK got me a 35USD GTC.
Only if you go against the EULA etc basic principles.
You can buy a GTC to get ISK, but you can't sell a GTC(bought ingame) to get money.
You can, but you shouldn't.
I explained this, why won't people listen
Because it's a dumb argument. If I pay in-game currency for my GTC, I have $35 still in my pocket that otherwise I'd have had to spend. Ergo, the in-game currency is worth $35, whether CCP say it is or not. ________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
http://eve-search.com/thread/73354/page/1#1 |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 13:48:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Pohbis on 25/11/2008 13:50:22 Edited by: Pohbis on 25/11/2008 13:48:53
Originally by: Sheriff Jones If the EULA is just a "piece of paper", why bother with it at all.
Because it allows CCP to close your account and deny you their service if you break it.
An EULA or ToS however, is just a piece of paper when it comes to real legal rights. The only parts that hold any real value are the ones about copyright, 'cause copyright is a "real" law, or any other parts for which a "real" law exists. Not a paragraph written by a private company. I know that Hollywood and record labels would love to make you believe that because they claim something, it's against the law. That's not how the world works tho... well maybe in the US sometimes, 'cause of the lobbying that goes on over there.
You'll also notice that most MMO providers use the copyright part of their EULA/ToS, when they battle gold-farmers, simply 'cause it's the only part of their EULA/ToS that will hold up in a real court... if the case is about anything else than them banning you from their service, 'cause you broke the terms of the service.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:04:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Pohbis on 25/11/2008 14:04:27
Originally by: Sheriff Jones It's like me claiming my bag of air now has value, 'cause someone sold me a ferrari for it.
And you know what, you would be right.
If you managed to trade a bag of air for a Ferrari, it's worth a Ferrari. An item is worth what people will pay for it.
That's how a lot of real world markets operate. Take art for example. I can claim that a piece of **** clay is worth nothing, but I'd be wrong, it's worth what someone will pay for it.
If a lot of people want the same art, price goes up, if not, price goes down. Art is never worth more than someone will pay for it, on it's own, it holds no value. The moment someone pays you a Ferrari for a bag of air, that bag is worth a Ferrari. Now if noone else wants the bag, its value goes down, but at the moment of your trade, it was worth a Ferrari... sound familiar? Well yes, it's how the stock market works!
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:56:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 25/11/2008 15:04:21 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 25/11/2008 14:57:02 I'll make it real simple then; If you trade ISK, and just ISK, for money directly, you're in violation of thisandthat. This means, ISK is not allowed to be traded. Which means, by all legal purposes, ISK is worthless.
If someone sells you a gtc for this bag of air, doesn't make it so.
The GTC is worth money, and it's been paid for no matter what, the trade between a gtc and isk is worth 0.
This is a fact if looked from a "you can't sell a gtc with money that you bought with isk" perspective.
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Because it's a dumb argument. If I pay in-game currency for my GTC, I have $35 still in my pocket that otherwise I'd have had to spend. Ergo, the in-game currency is worth $35, whether CCP say it is or not.
Once more, no. The GTC is worth 35$, someone sold you that for nothing.
EDIT: On second thought, to hell with it, i really don't care that much what it's worth
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis
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Posted - 2008.11.25 15:08:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Because it's a dumb argument. If I pay in-game currency for my GTC, I have $35 still in my pocket that otherwise I'd have had to spend. Ergo, the in-game currency is worth $35, whether CCP say it is or not.
It may be worth $35 to you, but for all legal concerns, its absolutely worthless. Anything in-game is owned by CCP and they determine what its worth (nothing)
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
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