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John Hollow
Minmatar
Afterisk
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Posted - 2008.11.26 09:45:00 -
[1]
Or am I just doing stuff wrong.
So, I've played this game before with another character and did the typical missiles/projectile approach with some success.
Recently, I talked some friends of mine into trying the game. To make it more enjoyable, I decided to roll a new character and start at ground zero with them. This time I decided to train for Amarr ships and use lasers.
My friends went the common route of projectile weapons, and in comparison my lasers seem completely worthless.
For instance the other day we decided just for fun to spar our cruisers against a longer time players battleship. I was flying the Arbitrator because I love drones (however don't have the skills for them to be good yet). I had two medium beam lasers on board with a full spectrum of crystals.
Now, the people with projectiles were able to do some visible dammage to the battleship with their missiles/autocannons, however I couldn't even dent the thing. I made a cheat sheet with optimal range of each crystal, and tried nearly all of them at different distances with NOTHING for damage. I mean, his shields recharged the 1% I took off before the next shot hit. I might as well been throwing stones at him.
Now, my question is. Am I doing something wrong, or should I just give up on lasers before I spend too much time in them? I do love the way you can instant change ammo type to fire at all ranges, but if they don't do dammage at any range, what's the point?
Tips, suggestions?
Oh, and I was just using standard medium crystals, because the specialized ones take quite awhile to train for and haven't gotten there yet...
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.11.26 09:47:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Dr Fighter on 26/11/2008 09:47:59
you were probly shooting a guristas or angel BS, which have high resistances to em and therm.
try shooting a rouge drone BS or a sansha/blood BS, you will get some decent dmg, doubt it will take it down solo tho
EDIT: didnt see player BS there, but it still stands that he might have decent resists with alot of HP so you wont see much dmg at all. Pretty normal
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sAyArrrr
Minmatar
Omyst Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 09:53:00 -
[3]
Edited by: sAyArrrr on 26/11/2008 09:58:56
 Originally by: John Hollow
...I was flying the Arbitrator/I had two medium beam lasers...
...Arbitrator/two medium beam lasers...
...because the specialized ones take quite awhile to train for and haven't gotten there yet...
...Am I doing something wrong...
Yes.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.26 09:56:00 -
[4]
You're low on skills, you use only 2 laser turrets and you use them on a ship that gets no bonus for it and you (probably) weren't using heat sinks. I'm guesstimating you were doing about 35 dps.
Now try having high skills, with 5 T2 lasers on a ship that DOES get bonuses for it (Omen) and uses a few heatsinks. That one does 352 dps.
There's your answer.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Rage of Inferno
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Posted - 2008.11.26 09:58:00 -
[5]
check out the tracking guide in the ressources sticky in this forum, should help you alot.
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Boosters and PirateProfessions
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Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises
Babylon Project
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Posted - 2008.11.26 10:12:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
check out the tracking guide in the ressources sticky in this forum, should help you alot.
I'd have him check out the ship fitting guide first.
2 Small guns on a cruiser class ship = for killing drones or frigs.
All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me..
Drone guide.. |
Meiyang Lee
Gallente
Azteca Transportation Unlimited
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.11.26 10:18:00 -
[7]
simply put, 2 unbonused T1 beam lasers hardly do any DPS, that's why.
The Arbi has a drone damage bonus and a tracking disruptor bonus, no bonus to it's lasers at all.
Without a damage bonus volume is the best solution and that's not possible on that ship. Try it with an Omen (Focused Medium Pulse probably, I doubt Heavies fit) and you will dent that BS armor, unless his EM resists are extremely high.
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John Hollow
Minmatar
Afterisk
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Posted - 2008.11.26 10:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
You're low on skills, you use only 2 laser turrets and you use them on a ship that gets no bonus for it and you (probably) weren't using heat sinks. I'm guesstimating you were doing about 35 dps.
Now try having high skills, with 5 T2 lasers on a ship that DOES get bonuses for it (Omen) and uses a few heatsinks. That one does 352 dps.
There's your answer.
I was using one heat sink, and a Quad Afocal Light Maser I. Yes, my skills aren't that high for lasers yet, but still comparing guns to guns, my buddies using projectile weapons/missiles don't have high skills either. They can fit a tech 1 gun and do damage, where with lasers I need to have t2 (expensive loss) guns and higher skills? Still makes it seem like lasers are a waste of time when I can go out killing right away with other weapons.
Also, was hoping to go out by the rule of never bringing more than you can afford to loose to a fight. With lasers it seems I have to bring the most expensive thing I can fit just to have a hope of doing comparable damage with other weapon types...
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Strak Yogorn
Amarr
Farmer Killers
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Posted - 2008.11.26 10:43:00 -
[9]
lasers take more sp before they really shine, its not instant gratification, but a long term investment. of course it helps to fit the right size etc, as others have pointed out already.
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Meiyang Lee
Gallente
Azteca Transportation Unlimited
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.11.26 10:45:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Meiyang Lee on 26/11/2008 10:45:41
Originally by: John Hollow
Originally by: Tzar'rim
You're low on skills, you use only 2 laser turrets and you use them on a ship that gets no bonus for it and you (probably) weren't using heat sinks. I'm guesstimating you were doing about 35 dps.
Now try having high skills, with 5 T2 lasers on a ship that DOES get bonuses for it (Omen) and uses a few heatsinks. That one does 352 dps.
There's your answer.
I was using one heat sink, and a Quad Afocal Light Maser I. Yes, my skills aren't that high for lasers yet, but still comparing guns to guns, my buddies using projectile weapons/missiles don't have high skills either. They can fit a tech 1 gun and do damage, where with lasers I need to have t2 (expensive loss) guns and higher skills? Still makes it seem like lasers are a waste of time when I can go out killing right away with other weapons.
Also, was hoping to go out by the rule of never bringing more than you can afford to loose to a fight. With lasers it seems I have to bring the most expensive thing I can fit just to have a hope of doing comparable damage with other weapon types...
You don't need to bring the most expensive stuff to deal damage, but I'm quite sure your friends had brought gunships rather than a droneboat. (ie, a lot more turrets, and a damage bonus)
Beam lasers fire quite slow too, and the Quad Light beam lasers have extremely low damage output.
My tip, to make the comparison more fair: bring an Omen, fit it with Focused Medium Beam Lasers or Focused Medium Pulse Lasers, basic T1 will do. (Pulse is shorter range but a good deal more damage) And then try again, I assure you, you will see a big difference.
Ofcourse fitting T2 makes a lot of difference, but the same would go for your friends. (Who were probably fitting bigger guns too, not the smallest of their respective type)
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.11.26 11:23:00 -
[11]
As it's been said above:
Lasers needs a slightly higher skill level to really shine, but they ARE powerful weapons.
1-2 turrets on an unbonused ship will be lol no matter how you put it.
Quads are crap for everything but shooting down drones, and not even that they do well.
Try 5 Focused Medium Pulses with Multifrequencies on an Omen and get the skills (cruiser and medium turret to IV). You should see a significant difference.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
John Hollow
Minmatar
Afterisk
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Posted - 2008.11.26 11:33:00 -
[12]
Ok, thanks for the tips! Saving up for an Omen until I get my drone skills up.
One more thing, I had two N50 Nos things on it, and I didn't notice much of a cap drain at all on another cruiser. Do you need a lot of these to really drain your enemy, or should I be looking into using neuts instead?
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Endo Scrote
Amarr
Universal Moose Foundation
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Posted - 2008.11.26 11:42:00 -
[13]
Nos will only draw cap from another ship if your cap is lower than his, try it with neutralizers that would have more effect........ Also arbitrator is all about Ewar and drones, maybe a missile launcher if I remember correctly
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Endo Scrote
Amarr
Universal Moose Foundation
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Posted - 2008.11.26 11:44:00 -
[14]
Nos is only good for if the other ship has a lower cap than yours.......Arbitrator is all about Ewar and drones
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Typhado3
Minmatar
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.26 11:45:00 -
[15]
lazers are good weapons and they work fine for my alt... also they get guns that can take no ammo which can be good for the cheap bastards.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Diomidis
Amarr
Mythos Corp
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.26 12:04:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Typhado3
lazers are good weapons and they work fine for my alt... also they get guns that can take no ammo which can be good for the cheap bastards.
Ammo is hugely cheap, unless you are using the higher Tier Faction Ammo, or T2...and guess what: Faction Laser Crystals cost around 0.7-1.2M a piece - for Medium/Large Turrets. That means roughly 6-8M isk for one set of crystals...most pilots with T2 guns tend to carry at least 2x sets in PvP, long range T2 and high dmg Faction (like Amarr Navy MFs) for close range. Gestimated more than 10-15M for 2 sets, no less than 6M for one...
Now, shop around and find out how many pilots tend to carry a "cheaper" load of ammo (projectile/hybrid/missile) in their cargo - faction or not.
Join the Biggest Greek Corp!
www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! |
Brazero
Amarr
Noble House
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Posted - 2008.11.26 13:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: John Hollow
Originally by: Tzar'rim
You're low on skills, you use only 2 laser turrets and you use them on a ship that gets no bonus for it and you (probably) weren't using heat sinks. I'm guesstimating you were doing about 35 dps.
Now try having high skills, with 5 T2 lasers on a ship that DOES get bonuses for it (Omen) and uses a few heatsinks. That one does 352 dps.
There's your answer.
I was using one heat sink, and a Quad Afocal Light Maser I. Yes, my skills aren't that high for lasers yet, but still comparing guns to guns, my buddies using projectile weapons/missiles don't have high skills either. They can fit a tech 1 gun and do damage, where with lasers I need to have t2 (expensive loss) guns and higher skills? Still makes it seem like lasers are a waste of time when I can go out killing right away with other weapons.
Also, was hoping to go out by the rule of never bringing more than you can afford to loose to a fight. With lasers it seems I have to bring the most expensive thing I can fit just to have a hope of doing comparable damage with other weapon types...
You sure picked the worst possible turret. Quad lasers are absolutely useless, short range, low dmg and zero falloff. This combined with a ship without turret bonus....
Get yourself an Omen with Focus beam or pulse and you'll see a quite different result.
Originally by: Rodj Blake
CCP are planning to give Amarrians some "oomph"
Unfortunately, "oomph" is the sound one makes when kicked repeatedly in the ribs.
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Typhado3
Minmatar
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.26 13:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Diomidis
Originally by: Typhado3
lazers are good weapons and they work fine for my alt... also they get guns that can take no ammo which can be good for the cheap bastards.
Ammo is hugely cheap, unless you are using the higher Tier Faction Ammo, or T2...and guess what: Faction Laser Crystals cost around 0.7-1.2M a piece - for Medium/Large Turrets. That means roughly 6-8M isk for one set of crystals...most pilots with T2 guns tend to carry at least 2x sets in PvP, long range T2 and high dmg Faction (like Amarr Navy MFs) for close range. Gestimated more than 10-15M for 2 sets, no less than 6M for one...
Now, shop around and find out how many pilots tend to carry a "cheaper" load of ammo (projectile/hybrid/missile) in their cargo - faction or not.
lol i don't think it makes much of a difference, biggest advantage in pvp is the small dps bonus from not having to reload. Mostly just a handy option for pve and pos sieging and it tends to draw in people who like the idea of never having to pay ammo for killing rats.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
John Hollow
Minmatar
Afterisk
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Posted - 2008.11.26 13:19:00 -
[19]
Thanks for the info guys. And happy days, my forum picture just arrived!....along with the broken polygon in my hair that will bug me for my entire eve existence....
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bluebeyond
DEATHFUNK
Doctrine.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 13:44:00 -
[20]
Edited by: bluebeyond on 26/11/2008 13:44:47
Your only a month old.
All turrets will be crap until you get T2 and good support skills.
One of my alts has maxed out lazors and they're fking amazing.
TBH i think they're the best turrets atm.
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Aion Amarra
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.26 14:08:00 -
[21]
Since everyone already posted good advice, I'll just post some general statements.
Lasers seem to be considered the new flavor of the month since QR, since they have relatively good tracking and range, especially for the damage they deal.
I've been getting back into missionrunning for the first time in aaages, and I didn't even realize that I for some reason had basic T1 pulses fitted on my missioning ship (I don't drink, I can't even blame alcohol on this), because the damage seemed decent enough and stuff was dieing all over the place. Replaced them with T2 pulses half an hour ago. Uh. Yes. Big difference.
Assuming you train your skills some and use them on ships that are actually built for using them, they do some serious hurting.
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Arkadrell
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Posted - 2008.11.26 14:54:00 -
[22]
are lasers worthless?
in short,... no amarr are fotm for a reason, which is they re doing the best damage at alot of differnt ranges atm, and those guys love their lasers.
Arbitrator:
Special Ability: 5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per skill level and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield per skill level.
its like a cruiser? that can fit 2 lazers and 1 missile launcher. It has no bonuses to lasers at all. Now a cruiser useing 2 weapons (lasers) without ship bonuses and maybe at low skils wont really hurt a battleship much, most people probably know this much.
what type of battle ship was it? what resistances did it have? what damage types where your friends fireing? ect ect ect.
you cant really conclude anything based on what your saying... so no it doesnt mean lasers suck. Go try a gun boat with lasers ship bonuses atleast before you scream "lasers are worthless".
lasers > hybrids > artilieries > missiles
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.26 15:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Arkadrell
lasers > hybrids > artilieries > missiles
Lazers are certainly the best out their atm by far but the order you have for the others is highly subjective to what they are actually shooting at.
POST NERF PVP SKILLS:
"shall we engage?"
"hmmm how many ships do they have?"
"more than us"
"lets not bother then"
"WOW great job FC!!!!"
"................. |
Arkadrell
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Posted - 2008.11.26 15:08:00 -
[24]
@Murina
I knows ;)
but if you asked most people how they viewed the strenghts of the differnt weapon systems the most common answear would probably be:
laser>hybrids>artilieries>missiles (pvp wise)
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Wil Smithx
Minmatar
Blueprint Haus
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Posted - 2008.11.26 15:23:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Arkadrell
lasers > hybrids > artilieries > missiles
Lazers Lasers are certainly the best out their atm by far, but the order you have for the others is highly subjective to what they are actually shooting at.
Very true muririna. I would say:
Missions
Cruise > lasers > torps > hybrids > projectile
0.0 ratting
Torps > lasers > hybrids > projectile > cruise
PVP (In the tank/gank sense of things)
Torps > lasers > hybrids > projectile > cruise
PVP, however, depends on lots of things. Here I'm talking generally about battleship combat but that's rarely the case of pvp tbh. Medium ships are the kings atm because BS have been nerfed to hell (thank you CCP you C&*Ts).
But then that's just my opinion, and I'm drunk so yea... (it was hard typing all of this)
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Groknor
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Posted - 2008.11.26 16:09:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Meiyang Lee
Edited by: Meiyang Lee on 26/11/2008 10:48:04
Beam lasers fire quite slow too, and the Quad Light beam lasers have extremely low damage output.
Quad Light Beams actually pump out more dps than focused due to their insanely short (I mean insane) rate of fire. Check it out.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.11.26 17:07:00 -
[27]
Lasers are not worthless but they are an inflexible weapon system, at least when considering certain aspects. They are certainly hard hitting weapons but they deal a great deal of EM damage, which is often one of the best resisted damage types (especially on Minmitar T2 ships). Unlike missiles, lasers (and all other turrets) rely on a different tracking mechanism and will regularly result in degraded hits of complete misses. Also, because the rate of fire of any gun system is shorter than the rate of fire of the corresponding missile system, the volley damage, which is the most apparent indicator of damage output without pulling out a stopwatch and timing kills, is usually substantially lower, especially when comparing long ranged systems.
From a practical aspect, I find that with my fresh T2 laser skills my BEAM zealot can out DPS my HML Drake (when counting missile DPS compared to gun DPS alone at any rate, the drones put the drake ahead by about 90 DPS), and I certainly have more SP in missiles. On the proper ships, lasers can prove utterly devistating but the ships are often incredibly specialized for dealing gobs of damage and nothing more.
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John Hollow
Minmatar
Afterisk
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Posted - 2008.11.26 17:44:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Arkadrell
Go try a gun boat with lasers ship bonuses atleast before you scream "lasers are worthless".
Yea, I wasn't really saying lasers were worthless, but was asking the question because of my disappointing results with them. Plus everyone was giving me crap about my laser guns during the fight. Anyway, from what I've read I now have hope again. Good days!
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pyyKtas
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Posted - 2008.11.26 18:06:00 -
[29]
2 beams on drone bone with most likely no skills in gunnery :)
Lasers are fine, very fine tbh. However your skills...thats another discussion :)
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Captain Ziltoid
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Posted - 2008.11.27 03:57:00 -
[30]
With my alt, I trained for 5 drones and hammerheads and zipped through level 2s in an Arbitrator while I worked my faction standings up and got my laser skills up. I went into threes with a harbinger and now I never use drones. My harbinger killed **** faster than I could target, and my Apocalypse is tearing through ships faster than ever. Plus my drone skills are useful for swatting them damn frigs in missions.
Patience, grasshopper. The way of the lasers will come to you.
Also, ****in' lasers rule. Because they're LASERS.
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