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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2004.07.13 16:33:00 -
[331]
Originally by: fredolic So your argument is ...... <blank>
I'm curious.... what argument of mine are you trying to refute?
That corporate theft should be gone: I've never said that and never will.
That CCP should involve themselves: They should only if they think it is necessary. And they do, thus the changes forthcoming.
In fact I agree with everything you say except for one point. It is admitted that the lack of auditing is something that needs fixing. Shiva was postponed for a variety of reasons and I'm not saying it shouldn't have been. However in most corporate thefts the thief is identified and that is that.
This is not to say that "press attacks" can not still happen. Lord knows even with kill mails going to both parties involved there will always be spin control. But the simple truth is those involved "know" the truth from neutral notifications.
Equally I know how I have purchased from, I know who has bought from me. I know many things except for this particular thing. It =should= be possible with effort and research to be able to discover who commited the crime... and it is not. The fact, again, that this is being addressed is an acknowledgement of the system's failings.
And thus is my argument. Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2004.07.13 16:33:00 -
[332]
Originally by: fredolic So your argument is ...... <blank>
I'm curious.... what argument of mine are you trying to refute?
That corporate theft should be gone: I've never said that and never will.
That CCP should involve themselves: They should only if they think it is necessary. And they do, thus the changes forthcoming.
In fact I agree with everything you say except for one point. It is admitted that the lack of auditing is something that needs fixing. Shiva was postponed for a variety of reasons and I'm not saying it shouldn't have been. However in most corporate thefts the thief is identified and that is that.
This is not to say that "press attacks" can not still happen. Lord knows even with kill mails going to both parties involved there will always be spin control. But the simple truth is those involved "know" the truth from neutral notifications.
Equally I know how I have purchased from, I know who has bought from me. I know many things except for this particular thing. It =should= be possible with effort and research to be able to discover who commited the crime... and it is not. The fact, again, that this is being addressed is an acknowledgement of the system's failings.
And thus is my argument. Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
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Xavier Arron
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Posted - 2004.07.13 17:38:00 -
[333]
Edited by: Xavier Arron on 13/07/2004 17:49:42
Originally by: fredolic
Quote: Limitations and flaws in the game mechanics have led to the situation with have now, with corp thiefÆs / scammers / griefers / exploiters - able to drastically effect the game play for others with no risk or consequences to themselves.
Again you talk about limitations and flaws but fail to understand the single basic point ........ Corporation theft is neither..........
You are basically trying to argue about game mechanics when a bad choice has been made by a player/s . Not one single player can walk into a corporation and steal its blueprints, if so I would back you argument 100%.
Its a simple fact that you have to be "granted access" before these events can take place. If you make a bad decision by trusting the wrong person, then sorry, but its hard luck and nothing to do with CCP.
CCP have stated they will changes things in Shiva but corporation theft will still be there and possible.
You really should read the whole post before drawing out arguments from my post that I'm not even making.
I am NOT saying that corp theft is a game flaw, nor am I saying itÆs illegal or shouldnÆt be allowed as a legitimate part of the game.
The flawed mechanics of the game are that the game doesnÆt allow players / corp members to hold those responsible, accountable for their actions.
Sure let corp theft happen, let it be a profession, but there needs to be accountability (i.e. you can get caught) and consequences (i.e. players can take action to get back their, stuff and to punish you for your actions). (See my post on page 8).
Currently the game mechanics do not allow this and that is why they are flawed. As argued by Shar Tegral, the new Shiva corp management features are an admission of this and are welcomed improvements, but they do not go far enough.
The whole question of accountability and consequences for ones actions within EVE spans more than just the application to corp thieves. The whole issue of unlimited alts and their effects on degrading accountability within EVE needs to be addressed.
Take for example market scammers, if players had to do this with there main char and not an alt, I doubt many of the scammers would do it, why? Because it would be possible for a player to see who had scammed them and seek worth while retribution, with alts they are just delete or remain docked while a player, plays with another char.
Hence what IÆm arguing is that the game mechanics are flawed in that they donÆt allow accountability and consequences and thus this makes the game unbalanced and unfair.
There is currently no risk in being a corp thief and potentially huge reward. To build a successful corp you have to trust people, and due to the high turn over of people within EVE, people only have to prove themselves for short periods of time before getting access to hangers that contain game items worth potentially millions of ISK / thousands of game hours. The fact that much of this stuff can be sold for real money on EBay makes this issue even more poignant for corp members who are ripped off.
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Xavier Arron
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Posted - 2004.07.13 17:38:00 -
[334]
Edited by: Xavier Arron on 13/07/2004 17:49:42
Originally by: fredolic
Quote: Limitations and flaws in the game mechanics have led to the situation with have now, with corp thiefÆs / scammers / griefers / exploiters - able to drastically effect the game play for others with no risk or consequences to themselves.
Again you talk about limitations and flaws but fail to understand the single basic point ........ Corporation theft is neither..........
You are basically trying to argue about game mechanics when a bad choice has been made by a player/s . Not one single player can walk into a corporation and steal its blueprints, if so I would back you argument 100%.
Its a simple fact that you have to be "granted access" before these events can take place. If you make a bad decision by trusting the wrong person, then sorry, but its hard luck and nothing to do with CCP.
CCP have stated they will changes things in Shiva but corporation theft will still be there and possible.
You really should read the whole post before drawing out arguments from my post that I'm not even making.
I am NOT saying that corp theft is a game flaw, nor am I saying itÆs illegal or shouldnÆt be allowed as a legitimate part of the game.
The flawed mechanics of the game are that the game doesnÆt allow players / corp members to hold those responsible, accountable for their actions.
Sure let corp theft happen, let it be a profession, but there needs to be accountability (i.e. you can get caught) and consequences (i.e. players can take action to get back their, stuff and to punish you for your actions). (See my post on page 8).
Currently the game mechanics do not allow this and that is why they are flawed. As argued by Shar Tegral, the new Shiva corp management features are an admission of this and are welcomed improvements, but they do not go far enough.
The whole question of accountability and consequences for ones actions within EVE spans more than just the application to corp thieves. The whole issue of unlimited alts and their effects on degrading accountability within EVE needs to be addressed.
Take for example market scammers, if players had to do this with there main char and not an alt, I doubt many of the scammers would do it, why? Because it would be possible for a player to see who had scammed them and seek worth while retribution, with alts they are just delete or remain docked while a player, plays with another char.
Hence what IÆm arguing is that the game mechanics are flawed in that they donÆt allow accountability and consequences and thus this makes the game unbalanced and unfair.
There is currently no risk in being a corp thief and potentially huge reward. To build a successful corp you have to trust people, and due to the high turn over of people within EVE, people only have to prove themselves for short periods of time before getting access to hangers that contain game items worth potentially millions of ISK / thousands of game hours. The fact that much of this stuff can be sold for real money on EBay makes this issue even more poignant for corp members who are ripped off.
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Mursilis
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Posted - 2004.07.13 18:08:00 -
[335]
Originally by: Skyy
I'm sorry for your loss EV... but I still have a bad taste in my mouth from your corp.
How much did you swallow?
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Mursilis
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Posted - 2004.07.13 18:08:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Skyy
I'm sorry for your loss EV... but I still have a bad taste in my mouth from your corp.
How much did you swallow?
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2004.07.13 19:23:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Xavier Arron There is currently no risk in being a corp thief and potentially huge reward.
LOL... As I read this I realized there is one, and only one, risk to be a corp thief.
Not getting there first
That's it. Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2004.07.13 19:23:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Xavier Arron There is currently no risk in being a corp thief and potentially huge reward.
LOL... As I read this I realized there is one, and only one, risk to be a corp thief.
Not getting there first
That's it. Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
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Kern Hotha
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Posted - 2004.07.13 22:39:00 -
[339]
I don't have any association with EV but I think this is something that is far overdue for a fix. Five original battleship blueprints with probably a year of research is a tremendous loss. EV or any other corporation should make good use of all those paying customers. Shiva is nebulous. This is something that needs to be fixed now.
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Kern Hotha
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Posted - 2004.07.13 22:39:00 -
[340]
I don't have any association with EV but I think this is something that is far overdue for a fix. Five original battleship blueprints with probably a year of research is a tremendous loss. EV or any other corporation should make good use of all those paying customers. Shiva is nebulous. This is something that needs to be fixed now.
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Alpha
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Posted - 2004.07.13 23:15:00 -
[341]
Im dieing to know who did this,, C'mon, you have most the EVE community gripped, be brave, stand up and show your face,, well,, unless u have ebayed them for a shedload of cash and bought a new Character with your ill gotten gains.
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Alpha
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Posted - 2004.07.13 23:15:00 -
[342]
Im dieing to know who did this,, C'mon, you have most the EVE community gripped, be brave, stand up and show your face,, well,, unless u have ebayed them for a shedload of cash and bought a new Character with your ill gotten gains.
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Alpha
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Posted - 2004.07.13 23:16:00 -
[343]
Anyone care to specualte hot much all those BPO's would be worth on ebay??
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Alpha
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Posted - 2004.07.13 23:16:00 -
[344]
Anyone care to specualte hot much all those BPO's would be worth on ebay??
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Kalki Nibiru
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Posted - 2004.07.14 02:41:00 -
[345]
Originally by: Alpha Anyone care to specualte hot much all those BPO's would be worth on ebay??
I doubt they sold the BPO's on Ebay, I would imagine they sold them in game for isk, then sell the isk on ebay.
Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate . <Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market? <Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with |
Kalki Nibiru
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Posted - 2004.07.14 02:41:00 -
[346]
Originally by: Alpha Anyone care to specualte hot much all those BPO's would be worth on ebay??
I doubt they sold the BPO's on Ebay, I would imagine they sold them in game for isk, then sell the isk on ebay.
Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate . <Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market? <Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with |
corporal hicks
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Posted - 2004.07.14 03:16:00 -
[347]
It is strange to me that this is such a big deal to CCp as in the not reveling of who took them. in the real world ie now companies at most time's would have records of access to sensitive place's and reports would be filed with the cops ect. The police would be able to get court orders/serch warrents and check bank accounts for unusual amounts of cash, eventually this might lead to the corp thief been caught.
Why Can ccp not see that in reality the one flaw in the whole corp system in eve is this crap of someone stealing all the corps assets. They then sell everything on e-bay maybe in game for isk and make a fortune from the other players, and there is no way of tracking it.
" Stay Frosty "
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corporal hicks
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Posted - 2004.07.14 03:16:00 -
[348]
It is strange to me that this is such a big deal to CCp as in the not reveling of who took them. in the real world ie now companies at most time's would have records of access to sensitive place's and reports would be filed with the cops ect. The police would be able to get court orders/serch warrents and check bank accounts for unusual amounts of cash, eventually this might lead to the corp thief been caught.
Why Can ccp not see that in reality the one flaw in the whole corp system in eve is this crap of someone stealing all the corps assets. They then sell everything on e-bay maybe in game for isk and make a fortune from the other players, and there is no way of tracking it.
" Stay Frosty "
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Ca0 Ca0
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Posted - 2004.07.14 03:25:00 -
[349]
/emote points to Enron.
/emote points to Worldcom.
These two corporations were defrauded to the most outrageous extent by their CEOs and directors. And it took FOREVER for it to surface through all the accounting nightmares. Eventually it was discovered but they STILL don't know exactly who did what or when! It isn't any different in real life, corp theft is part of this game as it is in real life so quit whining about it!
If EVER never came to the Vale it is likely none of this would have ever happened, losing wars breeds dissent, and dissent breeds theft!
Cao
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Ca0 Ca0
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Posted - 2004.07.14 03:25:00 -
[350]
/emote points to Enron.
/emote points to Worldcom.
These two corporations were defrauded to the most outrageous extent by their CEOs and directors. And it took FOREVER for it to surface through all the accounting nightmares. Eventually it was discovered but they STILL don't know exactly who did what or when! It isn't any different in real life, corp theft is part of this game as it is in real life so quit whining about it!
If EVER never came to the Vale it is likely none of this would have ever happened, losing wars breeds dissent, and dissent breeds theft!
Cao
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Recluse Viramor
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Posted - 2004.07.14 03:29:00 -
[351]
Originally by: Ca0 Ca0 /emote points to Enron.
/emote points to Worldcom.
These two corporations were defrauded to the most outrageous extent by their CEOs and directors. And it took FOREVER for it to surface through all the accounting nightmares. Eventually it was discovered but they STILL don't know exactly who did what or when! It isn't any different in real life, corp theft is part of this game as it is in real life so quit whining about it!
If EVER never came to the Vale it is likely none of this would have ever happened, losing wars breeds dissent, and dissent breeds theft!
Cao
I agree with all of that but.... UNICOR is far from losing the war!!!
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Recluse Viramor
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Posted - 2004.07.14 03:29:00 -
[352]
Originally by: Ca0 Ca0 /emote points to Enron.
/emote points to Worldcom.
These two corporations were defrauded to the most outrageous extent by their CEOs and directors. And it took FOREVER for it to surface through all the accounting nightmares. Eventually it was discovered but they STILL don't know exactly who did what or when! It isn't any different in real life, corp theft is part of this game as it is in real life so quit whining about it!
If EVER never came to the Vale it is likely none of this would have ever happened, losing wars breeds dissent, and dissent breeds theft!
Cao
I agree with all of that but.... UNICOR is far from losing the war!!!
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