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Lancard	Posted - 2008.11.27 23:01:00 - [1] Subject line says it all. Arazu doesn't have much going for it atm. Below I have listed a few options that could improve the Arazu's role as a support ship. Personally, I feel that implementing option #1 (by itself) would make the Arazu useful again without becoming overpowering. Proposed fix(es): 1. increase effectiveness(targeting range reduction/targeting speed reduction) of remote sensor dampeners -or- boost Arazu's bonus to remote sensor dampeners. -Imo, with two remote sensor damps activated, a standard Ti Battleship should have an effective targeting range of no more then 10km. A standard BC should have an effecitve targeting range of no more then 2km. 2. Additional med/low slot with additional powergrid/cpu to match - An Arazu can't hold it's cap without the assistance of cap boosters, capacitor rechargers, or shield power relays. Arazu's have no tank, so mircrowarp drives, overdrive injectors, nanofibers are required to maintain distance. 3. Increase the optimal range for sensor boosters to 50/55 km (or an Arazu ship bonus to match) - Let's face it, the Arazu is a rail boat. 4. Increase capacitor recharge rate -or- increase capacitor capacity - Again, the Arazu can't hold it's capacitor. 5. Increase dronebay size to 50km - Gallente is the drone race ffs. If the Arazu can't count on it's remote sensor dampeners, at least give them room for full rack of Medium Drones. Comments/concerns/troll accusations are welcome TL;DR version : Arazu whine
Raniss	Posted - 2008.11.27 23:09:00 - [2] I vote for nerfing falcons. But thats me!
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.11.27 23:11:00 - [3] The damp range on the arazu needs a boost so it can be effective at 180 or so i think, at least then it would be a good counter to the falcon and worth flying in gang.
Xori Ruscuv	Posted - 2008.11.28 00:03:00 - [4] Originally by: lecrotta The damp range on the arazu needs a boost so it can be effective at 180 or so i think, at least then it would be a good counter to the falcon and worth flying in gang. This.
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2008.11.28 00:08:00 - [5] At 150+ there would be no difference whatsoever between the Falcon and the Arazu. They used to be almost that effective and they ran around in mobs doing the same thing everyone is blaming the Falcon for now... 100% risk free 1-sided fights. They're one of the reasons scripts came into the game, remember?
arbiter reformed Minmatar Systematic Chaos.	Posted - 2008.11.28 00:13:00 - [6] yes ===== * Your signature file size is too large. Please note: we only allow file sizes no larger than 24,000 bytes - Fallout
dichroic	Posted - 2008.11.28 00:21:00 - [7] Edited by: dichroic on 28/11/2008 00:23:01 Originally by: lecrotta The damp range on the arazu needs a boost so it can be effective at 180 or so i think, at least then it would be a good counter to the falcon and worth flying in gang. agree with this,. people moan that the falcon is overpowered, when in fact it's the only recon that can do what it's actually ment to do,. the other recons need a boost.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.11.28 00:30:00 - [8] Oh yes and make it so op that it only needs 1 med slot item to shut down any snipers ... thx not.
Caffeine Junkie 2 Guys In Motherships	Posted - 2008.11.28 02:00:00 - [9] Even as a Falcon pilot I would rather see the Falcon nerfed than the Arazu boosted, ECM is chance based, damping is not. Already the Arazu can neuter a carrier, where a Falcon will get a jam 50% of the time if its lucky. There are many places in this game where battles are fought and won, EFT isn't one of them.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance	Posted - 2008.11.28 02:05:00 - [10] Recons are all fine besides the Falcon/Rook. ECM needs to be moved to a more close range weapon like the other ewar.
Dianne McReigner	Posted - 2008.11.28 04:45:00 - [11] Arazu's are trash. The OP fails.
Terraform Gallente Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2008.11.28 05:09:00 - [12] Nerf Falcons, how they've managed to escape th damn nerf-bar for so long is a mystery. I have a feeling CCP flies Falcons on their alt.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.11.28 05:11:00 - [13] Originally by: TimMc Recons are all fine besides the Falcon/Rook. ECM needs to be moved to a more close range weapon like the other ewar. Recons are not fine. Don't try to dumbify the game into a ridiculous damage/tank simulation. The more effective EW is the better. Falcons and other ECM boats are fine. It is not ECM taht must be nerfed. Some of the other recons and EW should be boosted. Mainly the Gallente ones and the Pilgrim. But the minnie ones could use some web strength bonus as well. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Dianne McReigner	Posted - 2008.11.28 06:16:00 - [14] Originally by: Naomi Knight Oh yes and make it so op that it only needs 1 med slot item to shut down any snipers ... thx not. This. Snipers BS should not be able to be shut down by a recon ship. That makes zero sense Originally by: Caffeine Junkie Even as a Falcon pilot I would rather see the Falcon nerfed than the Arazu boosted, ECM is chance based, damping is not. Already the Arazu can neuter a carrier, where a Falcon will get a jam 50% of the time if its lucky. Ya, Arazu is already ubar-l33t vs carriers. No way can it be overpowered to be good against both sniper BS and Caps. Originally by: TimMc Recons are all fine besides the Falcon/Rook. ECM needs to be moved to a more close range weapon like the other ewar. CCP, give this fella a grammy. Ofc support ships should be close range. Why hasn't this already been implemented?
Shosoru Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:50:00 - [15] Edited by: Shosoru on 28/11/2008 09:55:20 I usually don't post to useless Nerf this boost that but i just want to say that i would like to see the Arazu being a ship that can not only be used as support but an excellent choice for solo pvp buy giving it some more dps potential (perhaps 400 dps+ at ~20 km range) and if the Lachesis gets a range bonus (maybe falloff?) instead of one of the two damage bonuses or its rsd effectives bonus (1 Lachesis shouldn't be able to newt down ~5 snip bs) so it can screw a long distance ecm ship and ships as the falcon would be of less use in bigger group pvp. I haven't thought this idea throw all to much cos whatever ccp douse i'm behind them ind my opinion isn't absolute but was just an idea cos i like to use the arazu as solo ship but it has a bit little Damage to actually kill a ship in any reasonable time, with any sort of tank they just don't go down. However smaller ships are quite screwed against an Arazu with range script. well whatever ------------------------------ Q: what happens when an EVE player quits EVE to play WOW A: the Average IQ of both goes up
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:59:00 - [16] Agreed that the Arazu should get a significant increse in it's EW bonuses. +10% level to sensor damp strength would be quite reasonable; +5% is just awful. Or/Also: change Signal Distort Amps to work with all EW, not just ECM.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.28 10:00:00 - [17] Originally by: lecrotta The damp range on the arazu needs a boost so it can be effective at 180 or so i think, at least then it would be a good counter to the falcon and worth flying in gang. Yeah, EW which works 100% of the time at 180Km would be good
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.28 10:06:00 - [18] Originally by: TimMc Recons are all fine besides the Falcon/Rook. ECM needs to be moved to a more close range weapon like the other ewar. What secondary ability should the Rook & Falcon get to match the other recons which operate at medium range because of those abilities, which their medium range non chance based EW? Also, don't forget the drone bay, extra weapon slots, additional lows, and of course a bit more speed & agility. It's fine to not want the Caldari recons to be highly specialised long-range EW platforms, but if you want their EW on a par with the other recons, you have come up with a complete proposal. Previously I suggested a +10%/level boost to the effects, speed & hp of all EW and combat utility dones, combined with a Curse-style drone bay; 150-175 m^3, and 50Mbit bandwidth. That's not really a very good suggestion, although it would at least be interesting to fly, but at least it's something. What do you suggest?
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.11.28 10:10:00 - [19] Edited by: lecrotta on 28/11/2008 10:14:53 Originally by: Malcanis Yeah, EW which works 100% of the time at 180Km would be good Preferable to a ship that sits in a hangar and is at the moment hardly ever used....damps on a arazu do not hurt close range ships but they can deal with ships that are out at snipe range. Originally by: Malcanis It's fine to not want the Caldari recons to be highly specialised long-range EW platforms, but if you want their EW on a par with the other recons, you have come up with a complete proposal. Previously I suggested a +10%/level boost to the effects, speed & hp of all EW and combat utility dones, combined with a Curse-style drone bay; 150-175 m^3, and 50Mbit bandwidth. So make it as useless in gang combat as the arazu is at the moment is your answer?.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.28 10:16:00 - [20] Originally by: Dianne McReigner Originally by: Naomi Knight Oh yes and make it so op that it only needs 1 med slot item to shut down any snipers ... thx not. This. Snipers BS should not be able to be shut down by a recon ship. That makes zero sense Um, what? EW ships shouldn't be able to shut down other ships with their EW? What on earth are they for then?
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.11.28 10:25:00 - [21] Originally by: Dianne McReigner Originally by: Naomi Knight Oh yes and make it so op that it only needs 1 med slot item to shut down any snipers ... thx not. This. Snipers BS should not be able to be shut down by a recon ship. That makes zero sense Yea god forbid ewar actually works......... PS: damps only reduce targeting range or lock time range they do not "shut down" snipers they at most reduce the effective range.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.28 10:26:00 - [22] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 28/11/2008 10:14:53 Originally by: Malcanis Yeah, EW which works 100% of the time at 180Km would be good Preferable to a ship that sits in a hangar and is at the moment hardly ever used....damps on a arazu do not hurt close range ships but they can deal with ships that are out at snipe range. Originally by: Malcanis It's fine to not want the Caldari recons to be highly specialised long-range EW platforms, but if you want their EW on a par with the other recons, you have come up with a complete proposal. Previously I suggested a +10%/level boost to the effects, speed & hp of all EW and combat utility dones, combined with a Curse-style drone bay; 150-175 m^3, and 50Mbit bandwidth. So make it as useless in gang combat as the arazu is at the moment is your answer?. I said it wasn't a good suggestion, and asked for better ones. What more do you want from me? The point is to illustrate that it's not at all easy to come up with a plausible medium-range role for the Caldari Recons. People are always harping on about their EW superiority over the other recons, but they fill a different role to the other recons. They don't add supplemental DPS, they don't do awesome capwar, they don't web at 40Km, they don't scram at 70Km. They have no reason to operate at medium range; they have no role at medium range. The only thing a Falcon or Rook should be doing at 70Km is MWD/warping away before they inevitably get butchered. OK how about this for a role change: change the recon ECM range bonus to a Burst ECM range bonus. Falc/Rook warps into a gang, hits burst ECM, hopes to make it out in time.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.11.28 10:34:00 - [23] Edited by: lecrotta on 28/11/2008 10:34:24 Originally by: Malcanis OK how about this for a role change: change the recon ECM range bonus to a Burst ECM range bonus. Falc/Rook warps into a gang, hits burst ECM, hopes to make it out in time. 100+ mil leeroy ship?.......no ty How about ppl accept that the mini and amaar recons are good solo ships, the gallente recon kinda sucks and needs a little work and the caldari recon is a good long range gang ship and suck it up instead of going emo cos they got jammed and ships that can operate at extreme ranges (ANY SHIPS) have a advantage at getting away and mitigating dmg.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.28 11:00:00 - [24] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 28/11/2008 10:34:24 Originally by: Malcanis OK how about this for a role change: change the recon ECM range bonus to a Burst ECM range bonus. Falc/Rook warps into a gang, hits burst ECM, hopes to make it out in time. 100+ mil leeroy ship?.......no ty How about ppl accept that the mini and amaar recons are good solo ships, the gallente recon kinda sucks and needs a little work and the caldari recon is a good long range gang ship and suck it up instead of going emo cos they got jammed and ships that can operate at extreme ranges (ANY SHIPS) have a advantage at getting away and mitigating dmg. Suggestion requires player thought & effort. Consequently it fails.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance	Posted - 2008.11.28 11:23:00 - [25] Originally by: Dianne McReigner Originally by: TimMc Recons are all fine besides the Falcon/Rook. ECM needs to be moved to a more close range weapon like the other ewar. CCP, give this fella a grammy. Ofc support ships should be close range. Why hasn't this already been implemented? Fine. I just don't think you should be long range AND cloaked. I would be more than happy for the combat recons to all get nice range bonuses so they can keep at distance, while the force recons all have to keep around 50km away (for Arazu and Falcon. Curse already has the range bonus. Maybe Huggin could use a web effectiveness bonus since its already pretty damn long range).
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.28 11:24:00 - [26] ehm...hello? Is the Arazu underpowered? Are we tacking about the Gallente Force Recon Arazu? The one with the 6x mids that can fit range-bonused Scramblers that post QR shut down MWDs and have a greater effect vs. MWDing ships than dual 60% webbers? Are we tacking about the "soon-to-beÖ" standardized cloaking prime-tackling/scouting ship for QR? Face it, the Arazu is the QR's Rapier...and it can virtually double web and scram (full tackle) with just one module, with mids to spare for more... Arguing for a "must have" dampener boost for the Arazu/Lachesis in the QR era, is like arguing for a "must have" Target Painter boost for the otherwise useless, 90% web bonused Rapiers/Huginns when we where still in the nano-craze era... Ok, do it, just make it so Tracking Disruptors for my Pilgrim and Curse WTFPWN turrets out to 150km optimal, and boost curse's/pilgrim's cap too, cause I cannot perma run all my eWar modules either on them Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Max Hardcase Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.28 12:35:00 - [27] Edited by: Max Hardcase on 28/11/2008 12:37:14 Edited by: Max Hardcase on 28/11/2008 12:37:02 Edited by: Max Hardcase on 28/11/2008 12:36:38 Arazu fails as a primary tackler post QR. Incase you hadnt noticed...agility was greatly increased on all ships, add an i-stab /nanofiber and yer golden. I couldnt even get a lock on a BB the other day b4 it had warped off. And I was spamming CTRL+LMB the millisecond it decloacked. That was with perfect targetting skills, Sensor booster II with scan res script and a scan res rig. Equal class ships have a hard time targetting in time post QR. What might work to fix damps for celeste/arazu/lachesis is if they add a 5-10% penalty reduction to the script effects / gallentecruiser lvl. Or EW str modules for all EW types, not just ECM.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.28 12:57:00 - [28] Originally by: Max Hardcase Arazu fails as a primary tackler post QR. Incase you hadnt noticed...agility was greatly increased on all ships, add an i-stab /nanofiber and yer golden. I couldnt even get a lock on a BB the other day b4 it had warped off. And I was spamming CTRL+LMB the millisecond it decloacked. That was with perfect targetting skills, Sensor booster II with scan res script and a scan res rig. Equal class ships have a hard time targetting in time post QR. What might work to fix damps for celeste/arazu/lachesis is if they add a 5-10% penalty reduction to the script effects / gallentecruiser lvl. Or EW str modules for all EW types, not just ECM. I fail to see how all other force recons could do any better in that case my friend... It's true that you cannot hold cruiser classed or smaller ships that don't won't to fight or attempt to re-reproach without a bubble...was that different pre-QR? No, and believe me I've flown the Rapier a lot before QR... You needed a bubble to catch most things smaller than a BC, and you still do now... You needed a lot of luck and perhaps a sub-par opponent to stop his tackled, dual-webbed BC or BS to re-aproach with his overheated MWD with your rapier... You still need a bubble... You have way more chances to really stop his re-approach with an Arazu around a gate than with a Rapier... Damps are the T1-ship Gallente ewar...I don't see as many Celestis' as Arbitrators, I can give you that...Long range scrams are way better and the prime Arazu/Lachesis' role, just like neutralizing cap is the main Curse/Pilgrim's role, and webbing is the main Rapier/Huginn's role. Live with it now that the scrams did get a lot of love... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.28 13:23:00 - [29] Originally by: TimMc Originally by: Dianne McReigner Originally by: TimMc Recons are all fine besides the Falcon/Rook. ECM needs to be moved to a more close range weapon like the other ewar. CCP, give this fella a grammy. Ofc support ships should be close range. Why hasn't this already been implemented? Fine. I just don't think you should be long range AND cloaked. I would be more than happy for the combat recons to all get nice range bonuses so they can keep at distance, while the force recons all have to keep around 50km away (for Arazu and Falcon. Curse already has the range bonus. Maybe Huggin could use a web effectiveness bonus since its already pretty damn long range). And again, if you're bringing Falcons in that close, you're condemning them to immediately die unless they can jam every ship in the enemy gang. I am of course fully aware that that is what you want to happen. Add a mid, 2 lows and give it a speed boost and it might - just - be vaguely viable in that situation. But I didn't see that part in your suggestion.
Max Hardcase Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.28 14:01:00 - [30] Edited by: Max Hardcase on 28/11/2008 14:02:48 Originally by: Diomidis Originally by: Max Hardcase Arazu fails as a primary tackler post QR. Incase you hadnt noticed...agility was greatly increased on all ships, add an i-stab /nanofiber and yer golden. I couldnt even get a lock on a BB the other day b4 it had warped off. And I was spamming CTRL+LMB the millisecond it decloacked. That was with perfect targetting skills, Sensor booster II with scan res script and a scan res rig. Equal class ships have a hard time targetting in time post QR. What might work to fix damps for celeste/arazu/lachesis is if they add a 5-10% penalty reduction to the script effects / gallentecruiser lvl. Or EW str modules for all EW types, not just ECM. I fail to see how all other force recons could do any better in that case my friend... It's true that you cannot hold cruiser classed or smaller ships that don't won't to fight or attempt to re-reproach without a bubble...was that different pre-QR? No, and believe me I've flown the Rapier a lot before QR... You needed a bubble to catch most things smaller than a BC, and you still do now... You needed a lot of luck and perhaps a sub-par opponent to stop his tackled, dual-webbed BC or BS to re-aproach with his overheated MWD with your rapier... You still need a bubble... You have way more chances to really stop his re-approach with an Arazu around a gate than with a Rapier... Damps are the T1-ship Gallente ewar...I don't see as many Celestis' as Arbitrators, I can give you that...Long range scrams are way better and the prime Arazu/Lachesis' role, just like neutralizing cap is the main Curse/Pilgrim's role, and webbing is the main Rapier/Huginn's role. Live with it now that the scrams did get a lot of love... Never had problems with getting a lock on "average" cruisers pre-QR, SBII+scan res rig made sure of that. (Stabbers and vaga's where the exception there.) I do feel the RSD nerf was a tad OTT though.

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