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Anti-Macro methods are as worthless as DRM

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nahtoh Caldari StrikerCorp Dark Trinity Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.29 05:25:00 - [61] Originally by: Aturayd Quote: I have had this problem as well and know a lot who do. Sometimes if you go inactive Eve kicks you out of game. You appear to be logged in but when you type you get kicked out. Its not as bad these days as it used to be. Yes that is it. Its not a direct to desktop crash. The game appears to be connected and running and working, until i try to do something.. then it closes and says Lost Connection. And im usually doing SOMETHING on my computer when they crash.. streaming video, browsing, or focusing on 1 account and the 2nd idle one times out. Its not my computer being low end or the computers of my friends: Core 2 Duo CPUs 4-8GB of RAM each, high end GPUs. I am using a cable internet connection and he uses an internet connection at a college. The rest of them that time out after 5 minutes im not sure what they are running but not all of them are even in America. And its not a eve setting or it WOULD BE EFFECTING EVERYBODY...Theres your logical flaw in your argument...I leave my game connected for a while AFK...never drops out. But I have had that happen when i have been active in the game. You know what caused it the lastime (3 times in a row) my ISP was having issues (yes I sure about that because I work on the sodding helpdesk...checked the network status when i went in to work the next day). Yes i sometimes run 2 clients as well...both will quiet happly sit AFK while i do. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Farrellus Cameron Sturmgrenadier Inc Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.11.29 05:46:00 - [62] I love it when people guess as to what's causing a problem and are completely wrong. Your problem has nothing to do with anti-macro protocols. I run two clients all the time and have them both AFK for long periods of time without any trouble. ----------------------------------------------------
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.11.29 06:23:00 - [63] Originally by: PeachesAndCream Good god. The people who are blaming router quality should all just shut the hell up right now. I have a WRT54GL running linux with open source Tomato v1.21 firmware. It's got several times more cpu and memory than budget routers, and all the settings you could think of. EVE sits on the highest QoS classification, alongside DNS lookups so even with heavy traffic on the other computers or background downloading, pings are consistently good. I've had the same issue where EVE times out if you do nothing after an hour of idling ever since the Dragon patch. I've also never encountered it while in space, only docked in stations. And this issue has followed me across two ISPs, 3 routers, multiple OS. My personal guess is that if a node becomes populated enough, it kicks idlers to reduce state traffic. Even if you're doing nothing in EVE doesn't mean your presence and details aren't shared by the rest of the world. I say this because it can't possibly be an anti-macro measure, and the time-to-disconnect is inconsistent enough. I've also been disconnected a lot quicker in places like Jita, than 0.0. The alternatives are: - obscure bug - crap internet routing (across the atlantic averages 120ms) - windows dropping idle connections on purpose (minimizing EVE or locking the desktop seems to facilitate the issue) Then again, I've seen Titan pilots idle cloaked at safespot from DT to DT in blobbed up systems. Could be anything. My old roommate used to run a gentoo router on an old PC(it was like a PIII or something), and whenever I had around 400-500 connections up on a torrent, it would get clogged and require a reboot. My new place has a ****ty $70 netgear wireless router, I dont have this problem at all. This is with the same ISP. Your linux router isn't necessarilly superior to the regular off the shelf consumer routers.
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.29 07:06:00 - [64] I often run 3 accounts for mining. 1 hauling while the other two mine and, since mining lasers have a 3 minutes cycle, the miners are often sitting idle for some time before I have to move the mined ore from cargo bay to can. Mined out an entire belt the other night with no problems. I have 2 PC's and 3 monitors so I can see them all working at all times but makes no difference, I used to alt+tab between clients until I bought my third monitor. Eve uses very little bandwidth compared to many MMO's so it may be that you have not enabled a 'keep alive' signal on your router and your ISP is dropping your connection. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again
Vikarion Caldari White Rose Society	Posted - 2008.11.29 07:20:00 - [65] I've let my client sit there for hours without input or disconnection. It's definitely your router, computer, or ISP.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.29 09:15:00 - [66] Edited by: Andrue on 29/11/2008 09:19:08 Originally by: Atrossoe From an IT systems stand point it sounds to me that your actual internet connect is resetting on the ISP side. If your using DSL this does happen. I've heard of many things like this from different people either playing eve, wow, FFXI etc. I doubt it. 'From the ISP side' your connection looks like any other. In fact it will be part of the aggregated datastream that is delivered to your ISP by a telco or fibre operator. Most ISPs have a single connection onto someone else' network. Something like a gigabit Ethernet. Larger ISPs might have several of these but each one is carrying the combined data streams from thousands of users. DSL does not mean you dial direct into your ISP. The DSL connection is terminated at your exchange then aggregated with all the other DSL users on that exchange() and backhauled in one large stream to the nearest telco's network. It then works its way along/around the network until it reaches your ISP's take off. It's similar in design to a road system. You might have your own driveway onto the nearest estate road but after that you're sharing the road with everyone else. I mention that because there would be no point in the ISP specifically terminating a DSL connection at their end. All connections look the same so if they had capacity issues on that pipe everyone would be at risk of termination..except that they wouldn't terminate. An idle connection is simply not using any part of that pipe and therefore costs nothing. It's the active users that cause issues at that end with everyone trying to squeeze through that pipe to get to the ISP's servers. It doesn't even make sense to terminate idle DSL connections at the exchange because you don't dial in. Your socket on the DSLAM is dedicated to you anyway. You aren't preventing anyone else from using their DSL connection. What an ISP might* need to do is free up your global IP address(es) if you are on dynamic IP. They might configure their DHCP servers to have an idle timeout. But that will be just as true no matter what connection you are using since that is basic TCP/IP networking stuff and affects every user. No. The most likely explanation is that Eve uses UDP and the OP's router is configured to close UDP connections if they go inactive. Some routers do it as a security measure/housekeeping. It's due to the nature of UDP. Some routers don't like to have UDP ports hanging around indefinately. ()I'm glossing over LLU here although even with LLU from a physical PoV you might still be aggregated into the same backhaul as everyone else. In the UK most LLU still uses the encumbent's backhaul out of the exchange. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.*
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.11.29 10:42:00 - [67] Edited by: Pottsey on 29/11/2008 10:42:51 Washell Olivaw said "Name one other game which aims to connect 100,000 users to a single server. And would thus benefit from tightening up the network code so much that when the player doesn't do anything, nothing gets send or received." But that would be CCPs fault for tightening up network code far beyond the norm for games. Causing players to get kicked offline due to the way they coded the game would be there fault. The problem wasn't around in the first few years of Eve life. It was introduced around the time as anti-macro protocols. The problem gets worse and better based on patches which further suggest with the ping problems its CCP. How can it be our ISP or router when its ccp-ic-124901-ldn-thon-s2.c.telia.net where the connation times out? Anyway the problem appears to have gone since the last patch which further suggests it really was a CCP problem and not our ISP or routers. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Varrakk Phantom Squad	Posted - 2008.11.29 11:14:00 - [68] Sounds like you got some ghey powersave mode that kicks in.
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2008.11.29 11:26:00 - [69] Originally by: Pottsey How can it be our ISP or router when its ccp-ic-124901-ldn-thon-s2.c.telia.net where the connation times out? Because past that router they've told the equipment to ignore ICMP requests. Anyway, you can lead a horse to water... Enjoy your disconnects, I'll keep enjoying my uninterrupted service. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.29 11:33:00 - [70] I dont know what happened after latest patches but i've been dcing a lot for some unknown reasons, I'm not even afk. It might happen like any time tbh but it only happens when running 2 or more accounts I think. :/
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.11.29 12:21:00 - [71] Washell Olivaw said "Enjoy your disconnects, I'll keep enjoying my uninterrupted service." Talk about arrogant; it's not the router or ISP in every case. If it was I would have fixed it by now and so would lots of the other people with problems. Saying that CCPs last patch seems to have fixed the problem. Washell Olivaw said "Because past that router they've told the equipment to ignore ICMP requests." But I am not talking about past that. I am talking about that section. The timeouts happen at that section. Some of us who get dropped find it's that CCP area that the timeout happens. Everything's fine then we get a timeout at ccp-ic-124901-ldn-thon-s2.c.telia.net (213.248.90.90) then kicked out of game. That's not our ISP thats the problem, thats CCP problem. Although I had no problems since last patch. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
ZinderX500 Caldari Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.29 12:27:00 - [72] Originally by: PeachesAndCream Good god. The people who are blaming router quality should all just shut the hell up right now. I have a WRT54GL running linux with open source Tomato v1.21 firmware. It's got several times more cpu and memory than budget routers, and all the settings you could think of. EVE sits on the highest QoS classification, alongside DNS lookups so even with heavy traffic on the other computers or background downloading, pings are consistently good. I've had the same issue where EVE times out if you do nothing after an hour of idling ever since the Dragon patch. I've also never encountered it while in space, only docked in stations. And this issue has followed me across two ISPs, 3 routers, multiple OS. My personal guess is that if a node becomes populated enough, it kicks idlers to reduce state traffic. Even if you're doing nothing in EVE doesn't mean your presence and details aren't shared by the rest of the world. I say this because it can't possibly be an anti-macro measure, and the time-to-disconnect is inconsistent enough. I've also been disconnected a lot quicker in places like Jita, than 0.0. The alternatives are: - obscure bug - crap internet routing (across the atlantic averages 120ms) - windows dropping idle connections on purpose (minimizing EVE or locking the desktop seems to facilitate the issue) Then again, I've seen Titan pilots idle cloaked at safespot from DT to DT in blobbed up systems. Could be anything. You know that most (if not all, nowadays) routers use Linux. Right ? You also know that most Linksys routers including yours can't even be compared to Thomson/USR/Zyxel. Right ? Anyway, enough with the off-topic. It just happens to a very small minority of users so it's not CCP's problem.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.11.29 12:32:00 - [73] ZinderX500 said "Anyway, enough with the off-topic. It just happens to a very small minority of users so it's not CCP's problem." What a load of rubbish. Just because a bug effects the minority of users it does not mean it's not CCPs problem. I guess by your definition the Eve patch that delete the boot.ini file that killed windows also wasn't CCPs problem as it only effected the minority of users. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
ZinderX500 Caldari Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.29 12:37:00 - [74] Originally by: Pottsey ZinderX500 said "Anyway, enough with the off-topic. It just happens to a very small minority of users so it's not CCP's problem." What a load of rubbish. Just because a bug effects the minority of users it does not mean it's not CCPs problem. I guess by your definition the Eve patch that delete the boot.ini file that killed windows also wasn't CCPs problem as it only effected the minority of users. So... in one case you have some users being butt****d because ccp's patch deleted their boot.ini. And the other case is with some users being disconnected when idling. How can you relate those two ?
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.29 12:43:00 - [75] Originally by: Pottsey Anyway the problem appears to have gone since the last patch which further suggests it really was a CCP problem and not our ISP or routers. Not neccessarily. It could just suggest that the latest patch generates more traffic than the previous one causing less instances of router timeout. Some routers certainly do timeout idle UDP ports. It's because UDP has no standard flow control (it's up to the implementor to code that). Routers don't like tying up ports indefinitely so some of them take it on themselves to close UDP ports if there's been no traffic. My first NetGear did that. It caused problems with Earth & Beyond. Thankfully NetGear released an updated firmware that allowed you to disable that feature. Whether that is the issue here or not I don't know but to me it seems the most likely. So far it only seems to be affecting a small subset of players and that automatically hints at a problem close to the affected players rather than something at CCP's end. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Aion Amarra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.11.29 12:58:00 - [76] Hmm. In my case, I time out about two times a day. Once at downtime, and once at the 24hour forced disconnect that my ISP does. Otherwise I really cannot complain about having connection issues.
Gonada Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.29 13:27:00 - [77] either was a powersave problem, router problem, or, as some ISP's do do, your bandwidth soemtimes gets choked off after no activity for a while. my alt has made a fortune afk mining, every night for years while i sleep, one full hold at a time :), so CCP? no Please, jump into traffic
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.11.29 14:10:00 - [78] Edited by: Pottsey on 29/11/2008 14:10:43 ZinderX500said said " So... in one case you have some users being butt**d because ccp's patch deleted their boot.ini. And the other case is with some users being disconnected when idling. How can you relate those two ?" Easy to relate the two as both cause problems that effect playing the game and only affect a small amount of players. I am classed as idling as I am a mining director. So I sit there boosting the fleet with no buttons to press. Andrue said "So far it only seems to be affecting a small subset of players and that automatically hints at a problem close to the affected players rather than something at CCP's end."** But the players doing trace roots are showing the problems to be at CCP end. A number of players are all getting time outs at ccp-ic-124901-ldn-thon-s2.c.telia.net (213.248.90.90). I bet some problems are home routers but the evidence points towards there being a problem on CCPs end. Or was a problem at CCPs end, not sure there still is. Another day with many hours logged idling and still in game. Last patch seems to have worked for me. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Tuttomenui II Gallente Tsunami Pheniox	Posted - 2008.11.29 14:29:00 - [79] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Aturayd they time out and crash. If they crash, then why would you think it's a feature? I have never seen a program/game having a crash as a feature. Not even WoW. Have you ever used dial up internet service? its a feature for it to boot you off the system, which always **ed me off cause they advertised unlimited access, and kick you off for not browseing even though you got a huge download thats taking forever cause the service sucks to begin with. Thank goodness for DSL!!!. But yeah lame to jump to the conclusiont hat eve is using this tactic, and It doesnt happen to me. ^^ My Signiture is an actual Signiture WOW!!!^^**
Princess Ventil Gallente The Undertakers	Posted - 2008.11.29 14:30:00 - [80] Can't play the game. Socket closed every 5 minutes or less
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2008.11.29 14:42:00 - [81] Edited by: Washell Olivaw on 29/11/2008 14:42:43 Originally by: Pottsey But the players doing trace roots are showing the problems to be at CCP end. A number of players are all getting time outs at ccp-ic-124901-ldn-thon-s2.c.telia.net (213.248.90.90). I bet some problems are home routers but the evidence points towards there being a problem on CCPs end. Or was a problem at CCPs end, not sure there still is. Another day with many hours logged idling and still in game. Last patch seems to have worked for me. 30+ months, also going past ccp-ic-124901-ldn-thon-s2.c.telia.net, 6 disconnects. Namely 2 server crashes and 4 ISP issues, 2 of which self-inflicted by not paying the bill . What makes more sense? a. I'm that lucky. b. The problem isn't at CCP's end. Having read this thread and the other thread in issues & workarounds I've seen people post the following solutions that fixed their problem: 1. Got a new router (not neccesarily due to EVE related issues) 2. Configure TCP/UDP timeout on router 3. Update firmware on router 4. Plugging internet directly into the pc 5. Plugging directly into router instead of using wireless 6. Using neighbours wireless to connect to EVE (not a longterm option ofcourse) 7. (Re)allowing EVE on their firewall 8. Disabling their firewall 9. Using a different pc in the house 10. Switched ISP's 11. Switch from on-board NIC to PCI NIC 12. Vacuuming out the dust in their router Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Emah Spina Phantom Squad Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.01 10:43:00 - [82] I ran into the problem. Been afk better part of the day cloaked here and there. Logged on another accounts, went afk for a few minutes and both got disconntected. A 3rd account on another PC + TS and all the crap ran as normal. Both clients ran from the same installation.
Kappas. Galaxy Punks	Posted - 2008.12.01 11:02:00 - [83] Originally by: Aturayd Quote: I have had this problem as well and know a lot who do. Sometimes if you go inactive Eve kicks you out of game. You appear to be logged in but when you type you get kicked out. Its not as bad these days as it used to be. Yes that is it. Its not a direct to desktop crash. The game appears to be connected and running and working, until i try to do something.. then it closes and says Lost Connection. And im usually doing SOMETHING on my computer when they crash.. streaming video, browsing, or focusing on 1 account and the 2nd idle one times out. Its not my computer being low end or the computers of my friends: Core 2 Duo CPUs 4-8GB of RAM each, high end GPUs. I am using a cable internet connection and he uses an internet connection at a college. The rest of them that time out after 5 minutes im not sure what they are running but not all of them are even in America. It happens fairly often to a corp mate of mine as well, though he done a tracert on tranquility and found it was his ISP causing the problem, maybe you should try the same? If it was a problem with the client then it would happen to everyone, or at least a lot more people a lot more frequently. I've never dropped out connection of eve, even when i forgot to close the client down and it was on overnight __________________

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