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How exactly does one kill a Falcon?

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James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.11.29 18:24:00 - [61] Originally by: daisy dook Originally by: Mortuus ECCM isn't reasonable, it takes up to much slot space for too small of a gain to make it worthwhile, though I would definitely use it if it took a highslot...I usually have some of those sitting around doing nothing. ECCM is not reasonable? So being out of a fight because your jammed is such a small risk that it doesn't warrant a slot? No wonder Falcons are considered over powered if people think that using the counter measure is unreasonable. No no. People don't feel it's fair that they have to set up their ships for something other than the maximum gank or maximum tank cookie cutter setups. I mean, even having to fit a web and a point is pretty outrageous, wouldn't you say? Compromises far too much space that you could use for shield hardeners. -- 249km locking?
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.11.29 18:54:00 - [62] Originally by: baltec1 Missile nerf hasnt hit me at all. It still takes 3-4 vollies to kill a falcon. I could probably still fit a warp disrutor too and get away with falcon kills. It was quite amusing on vent saying "I have point on the falcon get some ships to warp to me" followed by my FC saying "HACs to that crazy bomber". Well, grats and creds to you then. Glad to know that someone is getting some fun out of bombers still. However, I would still like to know how many people there were in that battle, and how long it took you to get to the silly bastard. As has been mentioned, the Falcon is a force multiplier especially against small gangs. And killing small gang-gameplay is not a good thing. Originally by: Cardoh Dycen Originally by: Mortuus Learn to play? QFT! Seriously, all this whining from people who don't know how to play. In the history of most MMOs there have been very few situations where something was truly overpowered. Almost every time it's simply noobs who suck and are trying to blame game mechanics for their own shortcomings. Here's a life lesson: If you're playing an MMO and constantly get killed by a game mechanic, then it's you that sucks. If you can't adapt to different situations, then CRY MORE NOOB. Now more to the particular topic. Falcons are not unkillable. It was just like nano gangs. They weren't unkillable either, even before QR. You simply had to adapt and understand that they were really good at what they did. A good pilot will be the reason you lose, not broken game mechanics. Way to start off cleverly. While that may be true to some extent, the circumstances decide everything. And in this case, the circumstances are that the metagame clearly favor this ship. It's not a question about whether if it is completely unkillable or not; it is a question of degrees, of factors. Mostly, it's all about the damn numbers and not even the mechanics in themselves. Just like the small amount of speed that made some really expensive nanoHACs untouchable to missiles, or how missiles have now been ***ed over not by the new sig mechanics themselves but because relatively their stats* suck, so the Falcon's bonii and ECM range along with locking times, travel speed and other sheer numbers give it a significantly higher ability to survive in fleet situations than any other Recon. Combine this with its cloak which allows for ambushing and a function with an extremely high utility value, and it's not hard to see where the complaints are coming from. If we were just to tweak the numbers a little, like editing ECM's optimal and falloff, or by lowering the Falcon's ECM range to the same EWAR range spectrum as almost all the other Recons by removing one range bonus and replacing it with some other useful bonus, preferably one that encourages the ship to be a little more in the thick of it, we would have the Falcon down at the same level of survivability and function as the other Force Recons, and the issue would be balanced out. And we wouldn't be killing small gangs by stripping away the whole 'blitzkrieg' element from the game nor requiring them all to have battleships or recons in gang to have a fair chance at fighting this ****.
daisy dook	Posted - 2008.11.29 23:22:00 - [63] Originally by: Aleus Stygian ECCM's percentual boost may be good enough for HACs, who can speedtank and either depend on lows or have sufficient mids, but its midslot orientation ruins the setup for utility ships like Recons. See my Pilgrim comment. And then there's the fact that battleships are slow and dull and not fast enough to catch it, The you can't mind being jammed that much if you're not willing to fit a counter. Here's another top tip - have the gang as all the same race... that falcon isn't going to carrying more than 2 correct racial jammers.
Raniss	Posted - 2008.11.29 23:45:00 - [64] Originally by: Aleus Stygian Way to start off cleverly. While that may be true to some extent, the circumstances decide everything. And in this case, the circumstances are that the metagame clearly favor this ship. Read this over and over again, you falcon fanbois out there. Oh nvm, looks like a falcon ecm'd your common sense.
daisy dook	Posted - 2008.11.30 00:20:00 - [65] Originally by: Raniss Originally by: Aleus Stygian Way to start off cleverly. While that may be true to some extent, the circumstances decide everything. And in this case, the circumstances are that the metagame clearly favor this ship. Read this over and over again, you falcon fanbois out there. Oh nvm, looks like a falcon ecm'd your common sense. Circustances decide everything? deep and profound - if you let your opponent control the circumstance then your always going to have a hard time regardless of any ECM that might be present.
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.11.30 01:57:00 - [66] Originally by: Shardrael shoot it with guns. This works well. I actually did this the other night.* * - Unfortunately said Falcon was in my gang. Stupid overview glitches and lag. Two volleys from Muninn = dead Falcon. ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.30 02:14:00 - [67] You wait until he goes AFK and warpin your titan, duh Boink!
Munio Veritas Black Legion Command Black Legion.	Posted - 2008.11.30 08:32:00 - [68] Originally by: Dramaan Originally by: Munio Veritas How does one kill that which is unlockable? right go back to school. you obius lack the abilty to setup a good setup. Haha, considering it was a spoof on South Park, and considering you misspelled "obvious" and "ability," no, I don't think I'm the one who needs to go back to school.
techzer0 IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.11.30 08:34:00 - [69] wery wery carefully... Making a falcon run away is a win in most cases, but if you really must know... Get him to jam the wrong guy and die to sentry guns... yeah. I did it ------------ Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
Tozmeister Caldari Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.11.30 10:24:00 - [70] Originally by: daisy dook Originally by: Aleus Stygian ECCM's percentual boost may be good enough for HACs, who can speedtank and either depend on lows or have sufficient mids, but its midslot orientation ruins the setup for utility ships like Recons. See my Pilgrim comment. And then there's the fact that battleships are slow and dull and not fast enough to catch it, The you can't mind being jammed that much if you're not willing to fit a counter. Here's another top tip - have the gang as all the same race... that falcon isn't going to carrying more than 2 correct racial jammers. Another hint, ECCM mods are not only mid slot. +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++

Soros Systematic Chaos.	Posted - 2008.11.30 11:40:00 - [71] Edited by: Soros on 30/11/2008 11:41:06 http://scksc.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=458535 or, in exactly the same way but using a curse, for which i cant find the mail launch drones .. bump .. hoepfully get a cycle of neuts in the falcon will die
Vele Nori Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.30 12:05:00 - [72] Anything that can hit at 200-220km can kill a falcon. Sneaking up on it with covert ops, stealth bomber, pilgrim, interceptor, etc doesn't work because by the time you manage to cover 200km in the above ships the fight will be long over and falcon will cloak and/or leave the area. So you either have to hit it instantly i.e. with guns or you can be tricky and bait it decloak in its safespot, then fly in that direction in an inty or covert ops and bookmark the spot. Next time it decloaks simply warp to your bookmark. To prevent people playing this trick on me i make several safespots about objects of interest and will not warp back to same spot, but not every falcon pilot goes through this trouble. Arazu or Lachesis work well on making falcons unable to lock onto and jam targets and of course you should bring an ECCM mod to any fight where falcons are involved.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.11.30 19:47:00 - [73] Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 30/11/2008 19:51:52 Originally by: daisy dook The you can't mind being jammed that much if you're not willing to fit a counter. Here's another top tip - have the gang as all the same race... that falcon isn't going to carrying more than 2 correct racial jammers. Way to promote flexibility, on both points. Originally by: daisy dook Originally by: Raniss Originally by: Aleus Stygian Way to start off cleverly. While that may be true to some extent, the circumstances decide everything. And in this case, the circumstances are that the metagame clearly favor this ship. Read this over and over again, you falcon fanbois out there. Oh nvm, looks like a falcon ecm'd your common sense. Circustances decide everything? deep and profound - if you let your opponent control the circumstance then your always going to have a hard time regardless of any ECM that might be present. I think you're so up in the Falcon and stuck on the 'If you're getting jammed it's your own fault for not flying an ECCM'd battleship or Recon!' argument that you're even forgetting what I'm talking about. This isn't immediately about how many or what ships are in an engagement. It's not about where you're fighting or for how long. The moment I said metagame, I made it clear that I was talking pure game mechanics. And no matter how smart you are otherwise, how many skillpoints you have or what you're flying and fielding, that's not something you can change. A certain module and a certain ship have certain stats, and the very numbers of the game allow you to do this and that. That is the essence of the problem; the numbers, the possibilities, the probabilities. The simple amount of simplicity and space that the Falcon is allowed to fall back on because the stats leave such a gap, such margins and tolerances for errors or changes in battlefield circumstances, that a barely half-assed pilot still can do so very, very little wrong. That he still gets to keep his frail, high target priority ship so often that we might as well just let him sit in station and jam a little less reliably to the same end. It's not that the Falcon is unbeatable, but simply that it's such an easy, cheap and unsportsmanlike win. None of you Falcon apologists have managed to come up with a good enough argument to go against this. And yet still, I see a lot of you having the audacity to at the same time complain at BS blobs or people who fly battleships in lowsec. And that is appalling.
SickSeven	Posted - 2008.11.30 19:50:00 - [74] How exactly does one kill a Falcon? Answers: 1. 12Guage loaded with Birdshot 2. Disco Dominix
daisy dook	Posted - 2008.12.01 13:15:00 - [75] Originally by: Aleus Stygian Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 30/11/2008 20:12:35 Originally by: daisy dook The you can't mind being jammed that much if you're not willing to fit a counter. Here's another top tip - have the gang as all the same race... that falcon isn't going to carrying more than 2 correct racial jammers. Way to promote flexibility, on both points. Oh, and the ECCM for lows? It sucks. Utterly. And it is part of the developers' idea that Caldari should rule all of the Blessed Kingdom of Ewar, and that all the other races, especially filthy Amarr zealots, should keep in the lower regions of the lands of Sensor Strength. If you don't want to fit/fly to mitigate Caldari e-war then you have no right to say it is overpowered. Originally by: Aleus Stygian Random stuff. I have to stress that countering a Falcon <> killing a Falcon; forcing it from the field is a countered Falcon. Now I've got that out of the way, any ship sitting outside gate sentry range is going to be difficult to kill because it has the option of disengaging (unless you can get a point there - in which case you might have answered your own question).
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.12.01 15:17:00 - [76] While I am a gigantic fan of the concepts that the Falcon embodies and exlempifies, I can understand why there is some outrage at the ship itself. Afterall, being jammed absolutely sucks - all you can do is sit there and watch a counter tic down and hope against all reason that you'll actually contribute something other than damage sponge during the fight. The trouble is, that while the falcon is trivial to defend against in a properly prepared gang, such preparations require a commitment of ships and modules that degrade the overall combat utility of the gang. Yes, long ranged, ECCM'd snipers are the best answer available to the fragile falcon, but such ships offer little in terms of pure combat potential when it comes to a ship to ship matchup as they invariably are incredibly flimsy themselves. There are many other options of course but they all revolve around this same basic principle of long range and ECCM insulation. This is, as a result the same basic scenario one was faced with as a Caldari pilot when contemplating the problem of the Nano ship. There was but a single missile available to us that resulted in signficant damage on nano ships - the precision light missile. The trouble was, even the missile spewing Cerberus had trouble breaking 200 dps using the things, meaning while you made great strides in your efforts to deliver pain and discontent to the nano ships, your own vessel was now tremendously weakened when it came to harming any gank/tank fit ship. Basically it becomes a rock, paper, scissors affair. In small gangs, it becomes exceedingly difficult to fit all the components required to engage the widest variety of ships. Thus why people tend to go for gangs that exemplify a particular PVP ideology such as speed or EWAR. Just as was the case in the nano age, the only effecient solution to the falcon problem for the small gang player is another Falcon. The reason is quite simple - a falcon is useful when there is an opposing falcon on the field and it's even more useful when there isn't. Sacrificing a single potential battleship worth of damage and tanking ability is a small sacrifice when you consider the Falcon's potential in all combat scenarios. The trouble is, there likely isn't a happy balance here. Unless ECM is incredibly effective it has no place. At a minimum a dedicated ECM ship absolutely MUST be able to remove two ships from a fight or else it's more or less worthless. Lowering ECM strength results in a dramatic increase in the jam resistance of ships once they start adding ECCM. Because it's chance based, there is no true defense against ECM, all one can do is insulate themselves against it's effects. Most of the proposed solutions don't really address the problem with ECM; most people believe the jammers or perhpas the ship itself is the problem but this simply isn't the case. The problem is that the defensive mechanisms designed to counter the module are far to ineffecient. Afterall, it's trivial to build a tank that can shrug off all the firepower the average cruiser has to offer - doing the same thing to defend against ECM however is a task worthy of Sisyphus.
Warlord7	Posted - 2008.12.01 15:25:00 - [77] I normally kill falcons with EM FoF missiles, if you have the opportunity and in close range bump them from aligning to warp out while the FoF's do there thing. Of course this only works if you are close to the Falcon where the FoF will target him but eh nobody said war was easy
Elron Hubward	Posted - 2008.12.01 16:10:00 - [78] Nuke it from orbit; it's the only way to be sure.
Imaos	Posted - 2008.12.01 16:34:00 - [79] Originally by: Vele Nori Anything that can hit at 200-220km can kill a falcon. Sneaking up on it with covert ops, stealth bomber, pilgrim, interceptor, etc doesn't work because by the time you manage to cover 200km in the above ships the fight will be long over and falcon will cloak and/or leave the area. Target a celestial behind the falcon warp to it warp back at distance. Needs cloaked recon, but it faster than sneaking under cloak. Gallente recon: Either use method above or sneak up to a distance you feel save to have at least one hit from your damps. If you have enough time crawl to disruptor range and shut it down. Bomber are relative fast under cloak so they arent that bad to get there. Even using warping to drop onto the falcon will be enough once the fight is running. Last point. If you have driven off the falcon it is already one ship less on the enemy side. Neutralizing a ship is as good as killing for the outcome of the battle. It just lacks the epeen of a killmail. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Vele Nori Amarr Dakinii	Posted - 2008.12.05 14:29:00 - [80] Originally by: Imaos Originally by: Vele Nori Anything that can hit at 200-220km can kill a falcon. Sneaking up on it with covert ops, stealth bomber, pilgrim, interceptor, etc doesn't work because by the time you manage to cover 200km in the above ships the fight will be long over and falcon will cloak and/or leave the area. Target a celestial behind the falcon warp to it warp back at distance. Needs cloaked recon, but it faster than sneaking under cloak. and for this reason i make safespots that are out of plane with other objects which depending on system means that you will have to actually fly 100-200km to reach my falcon and cannot warp to it form any object... but if it is a roaming falcon that comes without safespots it is a good strategy too kill them - warp an inty and two other ships to an object from which falcon is aligned and then warp back to 100km and you'll land right on top of it .. if anything you'll at least scare it off

Misina Arlath Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.05 14:34:00 - [81] Jam the falcon before he jams you. If he can't lock you, he can't jam you, right? Optionally, chase him with an interceptor full of smartbombs and bomb him to hell as you race around. Though not effective, it would be quite amusing to watch. -------------------------------------------------- "Every complex problem has a solution which is easy, neat and wrong!"
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.12.05 15:27:00 - [82] Originally by: Misina Arlath Jam the falcon before he jams you. If he can't lock you, he can't jam you, right? Optionally, chase him with an interceptor full of smartbombs and bomb him to hell as you race around. Though not effective, it would be quite amusing to watch. If only they had capless smartbombs that used little grid... The counter to long range EWAR is long range damage/ewar/speed. Your idea with an inty would be better served if it has drones/fighters assigned to it.
Skylar Vodkabar	Posted - 2008.12.05 15:50:00 - [83] Sniper Eagle thats being remote sensor boosted FTW!
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:02:00 - [84] Edited by: Keitaro Baka on 05/12/2008 17:03:03 Originally by: Dyaven Let's say you get lucky and target it before it jams you. Send your drones after it, you get jammed, it runs away. Interceptors could possibly close the 200km to it, but it could just permajam the 'ceptor or run away before it got there. The only way I could see a Falcon being killed is if it's being engaged by more targets than it can jam, and a Falcon pilot would have to be pretty damn stupid to let 5 ships slowboat 200km towards it and not cloak or warp away or both. gang, ****~~non-consensual violent sexual intercourse~~. about equal amounts of the above should work. Probing the falcon out is something you should look into, although arguably it does take a lot of cpu to fit a prober as a heatsink (hehe). I also like the dual ECCM sniper, but you'll need a few to make sure you can kill kill kill. edited for filters All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:16:00 - [85] Killing a Falcon requires the Falcon pilot to basically be asleep at the wheel when travelling or overwhelmed when the battle goes belly up. Its possible to ruin a Falcon pilot's day by making them aware that some ships are kitted to hit them, making them want to be somewhere else as soon as possible, but destroying them requires a bit of bad luck or stupidity. In fleet engagements, I prefer sniper fitted Rokhs, and I can certainly ping them right out at the 190km-249km mark, but killing them at that range just isn't in the cards. At best, I can either make them focus on me, which leaves my fleet free of the distraction, or I drive them off the field altogether. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.


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