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The Caldari problem - why additional TP / webs aren't a solution

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Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.30 10:03:00 - [1] Caldari ships only have few lowslots, for many setups we have to fit fitting mods (cpu/grid) and the rest of the lowslots goes for damagemods, to compensate the general lower damage of missiles compared to guns. The medslots we need for mwd/warp disruptor for closerange ships and at least 2 sensor boosters for longrange ships (because caldari ships are designed for ultra-high ranges). The rest of the few medslots are needed for tanking. Base shield resistances are lower than armor resitances of comparable ships. Shield extenders don't give nearly as much hp as armor plates, and for battleship buffer tanks the passive recharge plays almost no role (it would require huge ammount of times to compensate the diffrence to plates). Conclusion: we simply don't have enough spare medslots to fit additional webs/targetpainters in order to hit anything like before the missile nerf. It's not comparable to turret ****s, that can have tank/gank in lowslots and utility in medslots. There are no targetpainters/webs for lowslots, the usual comments "stfu and fit a targetpainter or two" show that people don't understand the caldari dilemma.
Karille Gallente Lordless	Posted - 2008.11.30 10:04:00 - [2] Other people can make it work. Why are you different?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.11.30 10:05:00 - [3] Edited by: MotherMoon on 30/11/2008 10:05:13 if it's a PVP set up the ship your targeting should be pinned down, webed and painted by other pilots who task it is to paint the target. PVP is not all f1, you need to actually think as a team.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2008.11.30 10:05:00 - [4] Amarr have ships with 1-2 midslots. We have been relying on Gallente to do our webbing so far, maybe Caldari could ask Minmatar to do them some service?
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.30 10:06:00 - [5] Originally by: Karille Other people can make it work. Why are you different? I understand that you can make it work easily, dear gallente lady, so i don't wonder that you don't see our problem. This is about Caldari ships.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.11.30 10:09:00 - [6] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: Karille Other people can make it work. Why are you different? I understand that you can make it work easily, dear gallente lady, so i don't wonder that you don't see our problem. This is about Caldari ships. what does race have to do with what ships we fly?
Karille Gallente Lordless	Posted - 2008.11.30 10:09:00 - [7] Edited by: Karille on 30/11/2008 10:09:42 Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: Karille Other people can make it work. Why are you different? I understand that you can make it work easily, dear gallente lady, so i don't wonder that you don't see our problem. This is about Caldari ships. I was talking about the Caldari players who say there's no problem. And yes, I can fly and fit Caldari ships.
Xtreem Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.30 10:10:00 - [8] im specced in all races, other than amarr, which im working on, my pvp raven, rohk and cnr all work great, i have a mission running alt, in a standard raven, who still whips though missions, i dont see your point at all, sorry
techzer0 IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.11.30 10:18:00 - [9] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: Karille Other people can make it work. Why are you different? I understand that you can make it work easily, dear gallente lady, so i don't wonder that you don't see our problem. This is about Caldari ships. Hahahahahaha... try flying minmatar. I fly caldari, minmatar and gallente. All of the races have their strongpoints in PVP. I don't see your problem with caldari ships either. ------------ Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
Terraform Gallente Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2008.11.30 10:20:00 - [10] Military experts confirm that this OP is a dumbASS

Krystal Demishy	Posted - 2008.11.30 10:27:00 - [11] Yakia TovilToba.. you are a total fail.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.30 11:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Caldari ships only have few lowslots, for many setups we have to fit fitting mods (cpu/grid) and the rest of the lowslots goes for damagemods, to compensate the general lower damage of missiles compared to guns. The medslots we need for mwd/warp disruptor for closerange ships and at least 2 sensor boosters for longrange ships (because caldari ships are designed for ultra-high ranges). The rest of the few medslots are needed for tanking. Base shield resistances are lower than armor resitances of comparable ships. Shield extenders don't give nearly as much hp as armor plates, and for battleship buffer tanks the passive recharge plays almost no role (it would require huge ammount of times to compensate the diffrence to plates). Conclusion: we simply don't have enough spare medslots to fit additional webs/targetpainters in order to hit anything like before the missile nerf. It's not comparable to turret ****s, that can have tank/gank in lowslots and utility in medslots. There are no targetpainters/webs for lowslots, the usual comments "stfu and fit a targetpainter or two" show that people don't understand the caldari dilemma. This is baffling, because they're working just fine for me.
Northern Fall Minmatar Guild Navy	Posted - 2008.11.30 11:26:00 - [13] Buy a webber drone? lol
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.11.30 12:13:00 - [14] I can confirm that I also can "make it work". Interceptors are no longer immune to my LMs. MWDing cruisers are no longer immune to my HMs. My HAM Drake is more powerful than ever. As is my torp Raven.
Cairn Metalhand Swedish Aerospace Inc G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.11.30 12:15:00 - [15] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Caldari ships only have few lowslots, for many setups we have to fit fitting mods (cpu/grid) and the rest of the lowslots goes for damagemods, to compensate the general lower damage of missiles compared to guns. The medslots we need for mwd/warp disruptor for closerange ships and at least 2 sensor boosters for longrange ships (because caldari ships are designed for ultra-high ranges). The rest of the few medslots are needed for tanking. Base shield resistances are lower than armor resitances of comparable ships. Shield extenders don't give nearly as much hp as armor plates, and for battleship buffer tanks the passive recharge plays almost no role (it would require huge ammount of times to compensate the diffrence to plates). Conclusion: we simply don't have enough spare medslots to fit additional webs/targetpainters in order to hit anything like before the missile nerf. It's not comparable to turret ****s, that can have tank/gank in lowslots and utility in medslots. There are no targetpainters/webs for lowslots, the usual comments "stfu and fit a targetpainter or two" show that people don't understand the caldari dilemma. Both my main and alt can fly Caldari ships, works perfectly fine for me, you sir, need to l2p.
Banana Torres Look Ma I did a Test	Posted - 2008.11.30 12:35:00 - [16] All tier 2 battleships have a total of 11 mid and low slots in which the tank, damage mods and crowd control modules have to be fitted. The armour tankers have to choose between their tank and damage mods while the shield tankers have to choose between their tank and the crowd control modules. When fitting my Raven for PvP I use 1 mid slot for MWD, 4 for tank, rest for crowd control. But I am old fashioned, there are some neat fits appearing, ask around maybe you will get some ideas.
Karentaki Gallente Fighting While Intoxicated Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.11.30 12:38:00 - [17] Edited by: Karentaki on 30/11/2008 12:40:13 As others have said, you really need to consider what other races have to deal with before whining here. Everyone has to choose between some combination of tank, gank, and e-war. Deal with it. Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.30 13:27:00 - [18] Originally by: Karille Other people can make it work. Why are you different? Because he's 'special' Oh and I can fly Caldari ships. I started training for them in early 2006.
Bohoba Caldari HolyKnights	Posted - 2008.11.30 13:36:00 - [19] Edited by: Bohoba on 30/11/2008 13:36:23 Originally by: Gypsio III I can confirm that I also can "make it work". Interceptors are no longer immune to my LMs. MWDing cruisers are no longer immune to my HMs. My HAM Drake is more powerful than ever. As is my torp Raven. Lies lol I love peeps like you hehe the only thing true in your post is the drake that will get nurfed next patch along with ecm falcons and BB's any bets ??
El Yatta Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.11.30 13:40:00 - [20] Edited by: El Yatta on 30/11/2008 13:42:42 Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Caldari ships only have few lowslots, for many setups we have to fit fitting mods (cpu/grid) and the rest of the lowslots goes for damagemods, to compensate the general lower damage of missiles compared to guns. The medslots we need for mwd/warp disruptor for closerange ships and at least 2 sensor boosters for longrange ships (because caldari ships are designed for ultra-high ranges). The rest of the few medslots are needed for tanking. Base shield resistances are lower than armor resitances of comparable ships. Shield extenders don't give nearly as much hp as armor plates, and for battleship buffer tanks the passive recharge plays almost no role (it would require huge ammount of times to compensate the diffrence to plates). Conclusion: we simply don't have enough spare medslots to fit additional webs/targetpainters in order to hit anything like before the missile nerf. It's not comparable to turret ****s, that can have tank/gank in lowslots and utility in medslots. There are no targetpainters/webs for lowslots, the usual comments "stfu and fit a targetpainter or two" show that people don't understand the caldari dilemma. Is this a joke? Really? Are you under the impression caldari ships are the only ones with fitting difficulty? Because you're dead wrong. Are you under the impression that "missiles need 3 damage mods to make up for their generally worse dps" - because you're wrong. On the gank BCs (brutix, harbinger, hurricane, drake) for example, the turrets taht are possible to fit (Ions, 220s, Heavy Pulses) do about 60 DPS each, no damage mods, navy close range ammo. The HAM does 45 DPS at 2-5x the range, and with ONE bcu II catches up to close to 60 DPS. Hence, no, if you are using your shield-tank advantage to fit 3 BCU in lows, you do MORE dps than the equivalent armor tank boats can. Not to mention there are quite a few boats out there that DONT have as many damage bonuses as these three turret boats. For example, cyclone and prophecy are starting at a disadvantage to the HAM drake before it uses its lowslots for bcu. Are you under the impression that turret boats DONT have a fitting dilemna when you brazenly state "they can fit tank/gank in lows and utility in mids"? Because you are dead wrong. Its just as easy for me to state "missile boats can fit tank/utility in mids EASILY and then gank in lows". Woweee! I solved it. Oh no, in fact thats' a trade-off, a quandary when you're fitting your ship -how much tank to give to gank, how much utility to give for tank, whatever. All ships have to do that. That's the game. You're a joke, Toviltoba. You're whining about nothing.

Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.11.30 14:19:00 - [21] Originally by: Bohoba Edited by: Bohoba on 30/11/2008 13:36:23 Originally by: Gypsio III I can confirm that I also can "make it work". Interceptors are no longer immune to my LMs. MWDing cruisers are no longer immune to my HMs. My HAM Drake is more powerful than ever. As is my torp Raven. Lies lol I love peeps like you hehe the only thing true in your post is the drake that will get nurfed next patch along with ecm falcons and BB's any bets ?? Aren't you supposed to be recycled, boohooba?
Bohoba Caldari HolyKnights	Posted - 2008.11.30 14:27:00 - [22] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Bohoba Edited by: Bohoba on 30/11/2008 13:36:23 Originally by: Gypsio III I can confirm that I also can "make it work". Interceptors are no longer immune to my LMs. MWDing cruisers are no longer immune to my HMs. My HAM Drake is more powerful than ever. As is my torp Raven. Lies lol I love peeps like you hehe the only thing true in your post is the drake that will get nurfed next patch along with ecm falcons and BB's any bets ?? Aren't you supposed to be recycled, boohooba? worse mining in empire :(
Smelts	Posted - 2008.11.30 20:45:00 - [23] Don't forget to mention how incredibly stupid it is to have a long range weapon system be almost completely reliant on a 10km range webber. My 150km cruise missile loses 40% damage vs a battleship flying 150m/s ... and im supposed to 'counter' that by.. WEBBING it from 10km? Also do not forget to mention that unlike turrets, missiles take time to reach their targets. From long range as much as 14 seconds. CCP did not take this into account at all. And finally, do not forget to mention that all races can completely neutralize any missile boat by using a smartbomb. large and medium smartbombs can, and do, destroy all incoming missiles. Try it yourself. A medium and a large smartbomb and go get shot at by a few ravens/caracals/bombers. I guarantee you that from 30km outward, the large smartbomb will stop more than half of all incoming missiles. The medium smartbomb, set to pulse a second or two after the large, kills off most of the other half that get through. All this bullcrap and CCP nerfs the missiles even more. Unbelievable.
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.11.30 21:05:00 - [24] Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 30/11/2008 21:16:25 Although I half agree with you Smelts, people are just going to say the Raven was never an alpha sniper anyway, and that it's reliant on a 2nd ship as a tackler for web+point otherwise when hitting a target at 120km odd distances it's likely to just warp off. Although you can bring up battleship groups exchanging fire in large engagements too, people will still likely say the Rokh is better suited if you specifically want a sniper. The issue with the change is as you started on, which is the massive range on the raven is seemingly pretty pointless these days, unless you're using it for something like a POS assault. The reason they worked at long range before was while other weapons had to really stretch themselves with far less potent ammo types, you could at least guarantee that where caldari was concerned the enemy was getting a full payload in the face once it eventually arrived, and thats why smartbombs and fof's and everything were ok. But they've nullified that somewhat, no matter what distance away the target is, as long as it's really moving at speed it's not got too much to worry about. Whereas the velocity of a target makes very little different for a turret ship if it happens to be around 100km away.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2008.11.30 21:11:00 - [25] Edited by: fuxinos on 30/11/2008 21:15:49 This patch nerfed the only good thing about missileboats anyway. I mean, what advantages do missileboats now have? And dont tell me that "range" is their advantage, because its not. A Geddon can hit 50km+ without any damagereduction by speed or sigradius... and for that she doesnt need any tackling at all.
Karille Gallente Cold Templars Templar Initiative	Posted - 2008.11.30 21:18:00 - [26] Originally by: fuxinos Edited by: fuxinos on 30/11/2008 21:11:41 This patch nerfed the only good thing about missileboats anyway. I mean, what advantages do missileboats now have? And dont tell me that "range" is their advantage, because its not. A Geddon can hit 50km+ without any damagereduction by speed or sigradius... and therefor she doesnt need any tackling at all. The DPS on a scorch geddon is worse than a torp raven.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2008.11.30 21:21:00 - [27] Originally by: Karille Originally by: fuxinos Edited by: fuxinos on 30/11/2008 21:11:41 This patch nerfed the only good thing about missileboats anyway. I mean, what advantages do missileboats now have? And dont tell me that "range" is their advantage, because its not. A Geddon can hit 50km+ without any damagereduction by speed or sigradius... and therefor she doesnt need any tackling at all. The DPS on a scorch geddon is worse than a torp raven. Oh yes, 4 Dps per gun less then with standard Multis...
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.11.30 21:22:00 - [28] It seems to be, increasing the range of the target painter, either altogether, or on specific ships will help a great deal. 25km optimal with a 50km falloff is hardly enough for the Ravens range to still have a point to it.
Karille Gallente Cold Templars Templar Initiative	Posted - 2008.11.30 21:23:00 - [29] What is the fitting on these ships you're comparing?
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2008.11.30 21:27:00 - [30] Edited by: fuxinos on 30/11/2008 21:28:48 Edited by: fuxinos on 30/11/2008 21:27:29 Originally by: Karille What is the fitting on these ships you're comparing? Ill say it like this, with good skills, a Geddon with 3 heatsinks and Scorch, will still get over 600dps ( without drones ), on a full speed moving Bs at over 40km range, where a Raven would get over 60% damagereduction and only fires up to 30km with torps on MAX skills. Compare that yourself. Ç: Megapulse are actualy Amarr shortrange, just incase you say that torps is short range.



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