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SharpMango
14th Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.01 16:14:00 -
[1]
Im currently skilled in minmatari ships and am gradually working my way up the skill tree. Out of the 3 minmatari battleships, the maelstrom is my favourite..HOWEVER, i feel that the tempest fleet has the best long term potential for growth. Now looking forward, i am torn between skilling for the machariel, or for the vargur. to gain gallente BS5 will take me about 20-30 days less then to train up to maurader v, awu5 etc. so the machariel definetely has a skill time advantage. now i will be using this ship solely for mission running. i may possibly engage in some wtfpwn moments if some noob pirate corp wardecs us, but in essence these are for pve.
here are some of my initial thoughts on their pros and cons. vargur gives better damage then mach, however, it's an active shield tanker. now those things are cap intensive and it will use up all my mid slots, then i may have to think about cap relays, which may not exactly be a good thing. machariel....do i really want to be crosstraining gallente bs5? lower damage than the vargur.and....errm.. *confused*
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Dyaven
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.12.01 16:17:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Dyaven on 01/12/2008 16:18:42 EDIT: Nm, got the Mach bonus confused with Vindicator. ===== * Your signature file is broken. Please use an image that will display - Fallout
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Xephys
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Posted - 2008.12.01 16:17:00 -
[3]
I've always considered the Mach to be a really nice PvP ship, if you have the money to spend.
In truth, you'll need to find someone who's tested both effectively and can tell you why one is better.
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.12.01 16:25:00 -
[4]
The Vargur is really awful pve ship. The Mach is an ok pve ship - far better used in PvP. ----
ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense. |
SharpMango
14th Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.01 16:50:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky The Vargur is really awful pve ship. The Mach is an ok pve ship - far better used in PvP.
so what in ur opinion would be the best option for a minmatar pilot to train towards? i dont really want to go for the typhoon because well......i dont want to do missile skills!
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Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.12.01 16:51:00 -
[6]
Originally by: SharpMango
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky The Vargur is really awful pve ship. The Mach is an ok pve ship - far better used in PvP.
so what in ur opinion would be the best option for a minmatar pilot to train towards? i dont really want to go for the typhoon because well......i dont want to do missile skills!
I found the Vargur inferior to the Raven, just so you know.
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DubanFP
Caldari R.U.S.T.
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Posted - 2008.12.01 16:53:00 -
[7]
Edited by: DubanFP on 01/12/2008 16:54:28 Vargur can get a 70km falloff+optimal range with ACs and good tracking. Might be amusing for killing nanos aproaching a sniper fleet in PVP but that's about it. _______________
"It's not about the look of your ship or the size of your guns. It's about what kind of **** you can $@## up with it" |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.12.01 16:55:00 -
[8]
Vargur is a nice missions ship, i had a mach before i switched to the vargur. I was happy with the UPGRADE, amazing range on autos (barrage puts reasonable dmg to 60). People may say the mach might be faster, and they might be right as long as you have unlimited funds and can afford 800m EANMS to make up for the low slots you loose with dmg mods (on the mach ofc) whereas the vargur can field the same dmg but pack a much better tank with change left over.
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SharpMango
14th Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.01 17:10:00 -
[9]
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 01/12/2008 16:54:28 Vargur can get a 70km falloff+optimal range with ACs and good tracking. Might be amusing for killing nanos aproaching a sniper fleet in PVP but that's about it.
intriguing....getting over 45km in a mission setting is more than adequate..seems quite good.
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SharpMango
14th Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.01 17:13:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dr Fighter Vargur is a nice missions ship, i had a mach before i switched to the vargur. I was happy with the UPGRADE, amazing range on autos (barrage puts reasonable dmg to 60). People may say the mach might be faster, and they might be right as long as you have unlimited funds and can afford 800m EANMS to make up for the low slots you loose with dmg mods (on the mach ofc) whereas the vargur can field the same dmg but pack a much better tank with change left over.
upgrade eh??? what kind of setup do u run? i'd love to see it. thats what im really struggling to appreciate right now tbh. how this ship packs enough tank AND gank...especially since my current ship is really based off the tempest fleet. i see a ship with massive amounts of armor and shield hp translating into decent tanking..then i see vargur..i see the active shielding, then i get worried about my cap, plus of course, with lower shields than the fleet, i cant buffer tank it so much..
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Nice Devil
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.12.01 18:32:00 -
[11]
as i said ingame too, i flew the machariel in some missions and it is fast (also after the patch)... u get realy fast into Autocannon range. the tracking bonus from the gallente BS Skill isn't needed realy because u can handle that with your webber (without getting cap issues). so we look at the vargur => you get the tracking bonus and the shield boost bonus from the marauder skill... so imho this skill isn't needed as well, because the tank should be enough without having the boost bonus and the tracking thing i described a few lines above.
i think they are equal for PvE!?! (i never flown a vargur i have to say) there is an advantage for the machariel and there is one for the vargur... maybe buy that ship u like more (style :P)
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SharpMango
14th Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.01 19:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Nice Devil as i said ingame too, i flew the machariel in some missions and it is fast (also after the patch)... u get realy fast into Autocannon range. the tracking bonus from the gallente BS Skill isn't needed realy because u can handle that with your webber (without getting cap issues). so we look at the vargur => you get the tracking bonus and the shield boost bonus from the marauder skill... so imho this skill isn't needed as well, because the tank should be enough without having the boost bonus and the tracking thing i described a few lines above.
i think they are equal for PvE!?! (i never flown a vargur i have to say) there is an advantage for the machariel and there is one for the vargur... maybe buy that ship u like more (style :P)
thx for taking the time out to post devil =) you know if i actually beak down and analyse ur post..wheres the advantage for the mach? that it can bring to bear it's ac's quicker?..i wonder if that can be set off against the vargurs increased fall off range.
also does anyone ever run with long range arty setups, or is it ac's all the way?i could probably fit 4 1200s on the vargur and 6 1200s on the mach with some rigs/reactor controls...worth it? and lets see some ship setups plz guys. the ones on battleclinic arent all that for either..one suspects thats not what the pros fly!
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Shereza
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Posted - 2008.12.01 20:54:00 -
[13]
Here are some comparisons between the machariel and the vargur.
Long story short is that the vargur is slower, puts out more tank, and has less gank at superior range with inferior tracking while using less ammo. Incidentally due to being able to use missile launchers the machariel has a bit more damage variability than the vargur, but not by a whole lot.
Long-range Machariel Long-range Vargur Short-range Machariel Short-Range Vargur
Please bear in mind that due to a nasty bloody headache it completely slipped my mind to include drones in the long-range builds. Just add 157 DPS for 3 T2 bouncers if you're silly enough to use them, 158 DPS for 5 T2 hammerheads if you're almost as silly to use them, or 210 DPS for the 2/2/1 split in the short-range ships which is actually very effective. ____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
Skywalker
Minmatar Darkness and Chaos
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Posted - 2008.12.01 21:25:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Skywalker on 01/12/2008 21:25:17 I manged to get around 1400 DPS on my vargur while overheating. Can't remember the fitting now, but it was possible with tech II items.
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Meha Mott
Minmatar Carebear Research and Produktion Agency
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Posted - 2008.12.01 21:46:00 -
[15]
I love the Vargur, this is my fitting :
Capacitor Flux Coil II Capacitor Flux Coil II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Hakim's Modified X-Large Shield Booster Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Cap Recharger II Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I
Projectile Ambit Extension II Projectile Ambit Extension II
Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
Fitting Artys on a Vargur makes baby Jesus cry
801 DPS @ 6km opti/67km falloff without drones.
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EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2008.12.01 22:18:00 -
[16]
I'd like to throw in my setup as well. Also, unless you have an obsession with Quake ammo I suggest staying away from artillery on a Vargur:
[Vargur, Pimp Ship] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Cap Recharger II Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L Salvager I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I
Projectile Ambit Extension II Projectile Ambit Extension II
Ogre II x2 Hobgoblin II x1 Hammerhead II x2
Alternatively:
[Vargur, Budget Rent-a-rauder] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Large Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Cap Recharger II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L Salvager I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I
Projectile Ambit Extension I Projectile Ambit Extension I
Hammerhead II x5
Customise to fit. On the first fit you can get 65km falloff with 8k optimal, most rats are well within 70km of you. Either way I recommend carrying both Barrage and rat-specific ammo (EMP/Fusion for Angels) because of the better tracking on t1 ammo for when rats get close (.08 tracking on 800s). If you want additional tracking for that pesky ship drones can't seem to catch, throw on a Target Painter or Tracking Computer.
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ArmyOfMe
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.12.01 22:42:00 -
[17]
vargur works well for missions, at least better then the machariel, but it still sucks compared to the other marauders
Originally by: deadmaus
Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything |
EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2008.12.01 22:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: ArmyOfMe vargur works well for missions, at least better then the machariel, but it still sucks compared to the other marauders
It's on par with a cruise raven, what more can you ask for.
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ArmyOfMe
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.12.01 22:46:00 -
[19]
Originally by: EFT Warrior
Originally by: ArmyOfMe vargur works well for missions, at least better then the machariel, but it still sucks compared to the other marauders
It's on par with a cruise raven, what more can you ask for.
that it could at least be on par with the kronos
Originally by: deadmaus
Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything |
EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2008.12.01 22:56:00 -
[20]
Originally by: ArmyOfMe that it could at least be on par with the kronos
Don't be ridiculous, the Vargur is capless.
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ArmyOfMe
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.12.01 23:36:00 -
[21]
Originally by: EFT Warrior
Originally by: ArmyOfMe that it could at least be on par with the kronos
Don't be ridiculous, the Vargur is capless.
DIE!!!!!!!!!!
Originally by: deadmaus
Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything |
suza
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.12.02 00:02:00 -
[22]
I use a vulgar for lvl4 missions and have found it to be excellent. I use a 1200 t2 arty setup with a nos and two tractors,
Mid: ab t2, invulns t2 x2, amp t2, xl shield booster t2, web t2,
bottom: rcu t2 x 2, pdu t2 x2 and a dcu t2.
I have two rigs, the one that decreases cap use for shield boosters and the one that increases cap recharge time.
I use med drones for small things.
I have had no cap problems or the ability to tank missions and have killed everything thrown at me so far. I really like the ship.
Would I use this ship for pvp, hell no, a fleet tempest is cheeper and would do a better job, infact a normal tempest would be better, I could loose loads of them for the same isk -
Fly Hard, Fly fast for tomorrow is another day for Killing! |
Baron Primus
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Posted - 2008.12.02 00:07:00 -
[23]
Actually? Nightmare is the best mis running ship that isnt a marauder My sig sucks. |
Kashre
Minmatar Imperium Technologies B.L.A.C.K.
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Posted - 2008.12.02 03:38:00 -
[24]
I've used a mach for Pve (belt ratting in 0.0 though) and a Vargur for missions. Personally, I didn't find the Vargur to run missions any better than any other mission ship... You give up a lot of your DPS to range because you have to fight in falloff, and you spend more time getting to targets.
On the other hand, the one thing that makes a vargur an ideal mission ship is the tractor bonuses. It cleans up big fields of wrecks uber fast... and if you're going to be running missions "professionally", it's worth the money cause the time saved will more than pay for itself after a pretty short time.
That said, I still sold mine because I mission just enough to keep a good stable of PvP ships ready, and it would have taken me a year for it to be worth 7x the ship I current use for level 4 missions, which is a Sleip. +++ "Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa |
SharpMango
14th Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.02 04:04:00 -
[25]
Edited by: SharpMango on 02/12/2008 04:09:50
Originally by: Shereza Here are some comparisons between the machariel and the vargur.
Long story short is that the vargur is slower, puts out more tank, and has less gank at superior range with inferior tracking while using less ammo. Incidentally due to being able to use missile launchers the machariel has a bit more damage variability than the vargur, but not by a whole lot.
Long-range Machariel Long-range Vargur Short-range Machariel Short-Range Vargur
Please bear in mind that due to a nasty bloody headache it completely slipped my mind to include drones in the long-range builds. Just add 157 DPS for 3 T2 bouncers if you're silly enough to use them, 158 DPS for 5 T2 hammerheads if you're almost as silly to use them, or 210 DPS for the 2/2/1 split in the short-range ships which is actually very effective.
thx, really interesting loadouts. something which i'll definitely bear in mind. im liking the cap stable part of it too. one thing that interests me, how do u find it dealing with damage with it using a large shield booster rather than an XL.....and that applies to all 4 loadouts as far as i remember.. edit: also i really like the fact u;ve integrated abs into all of them, personally isee them as a must have on mission runner bs's..especially with autocannons, i'll prob use one of ur loadouts as a starting point for my own =)
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SharpMango
14th Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.02 04:05:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Meha Mott I love the Vargur, this is my fitting :
801 DPS @ 6km opti/67km falloff without drones.
67km falloff is crazyyyyyyyy. tell me, do u use hardwires for that added oomph too?
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SharpMango
14th Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.02 04:12:00 -
[27]
Originally by: EFT Warrior I'd like to throw in my setup as well. Also, unless you have an obsession with Quake ammo I suggest staying away from artillery on a Vargur: 800s). If you want additional tracking for that pesky ship drones can't seem to catch, throw on a Target Painter or Tracking Computer.
ur setups seem to be a bit cap light, or is that just my imagination?
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Shereza
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Posted - 2008.12.02 10:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: SharpMango thx, really interesting loadouts. something which i'll definitely bear in mind. im liking the cap stable part of it too. one thing that interests me, how do u find it dealing with damage with it using a large shield booster rather than an XL.....and that applies to all 4 loadouts as far as i remember.. edit: also i really like the fact u;ve integrated abs into all of them, personally isee them as a must have on mission runner bs's..especially with autocannons, i'll prob use one of ur loadouts as a starting point for my own =)
The basic loadouts were done on two premises. Two damage mods and then tank while fitting the best possible guns.
To this effect the long-range machariel has to be shield-tanked as it doesn't have the grid to armor tank. The autocannon machariel build, however, is armor-tanked, not shield. Also, I only put afterburners on the short-range builds. The machariel really can't spare a mid slot for an afterburner if it shield tanks and the vargur doesn't need it.
In fact for both ships if you're willing to make some sacrifices you could likely keep them cap stable by swapping out PDS IIs for CFC IIs, though it'll lower your max tank and EHP, and maybe free up a low slot for another Gyrostabilizer II.
All I did was put out conservative builds for adequate DPS, adequate to decent tank, and cap stability which is very important until you know the ins and outs of a ship and/or the configuration you'll be using on it so that you can tell very quickly if something's going wrong. ____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
Fenren
Minmatar Bure Astro Photography
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Posted - 2008.12.02 10:30:00 -
[29]
I have flown both, but when i lost my mach to a drunken session of mission running i switched to the vargur.
the biggest differense is that the vargur is slower but have a huge falloff. missiontimes is about the same but the vargur can in that time loot and salvage the bs's and bc's.
my vargur has a lot better tank and i truly like the falloff.
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TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.02 12:19:00 -
[30]
Train Gallente Bs 5... and use a dominix.
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