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EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 11:48:00 - [1] Pretty sure we were promised something along the lines of T2 veldspar quite a long time ago in 0.0 to make it actually realistic to supply ourselves with low ends. As it stands its still cheaper to mine high ends in 0.0, move the high ends to empire, then spend numerous trips running a very large quantity of trit back to 0.0 in a jump freighter via XL Torps(The best trit compression rate) I know it's crazy, but you could just give us a veldspar that has 4-8x the yield in trit. Beyond pvp, sov benefits, and moon mining there is almost no reason to stay in 0.0. Certainly none of it stacks risk vs reward ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:28:00 - [2] Tier 2 =! T2 and I'll have a Veldspar BPO please. Thanks. Secure 3rd party service LoveQuest 2008

LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:31:00 - [3] Interesting idea. Will have to think about that.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:32:00 - [4] Originally by: Chribba Tier 2 =! T2 and I'll have a Veldspar BPO please. Thanks. Yes I am completely aware of this. But they refered to it as a Tier 2 veldspar and in my mind it would be more of a tech2(Except you couldn't really have a high tech asteroid) Rorquals are neat except it makes time spent moving the trit from highsec to lowsec to compressing it to moving it out to 0.0 just unrealistic. Mining it straight in low sec isn't even remotely worth the risk and CCP seems to be doing everything they can to make it as hard on 0.0 logistics teams as possible. ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:33:00 - [5] Sorry I am not a very organized thinker, I can't make an awesomely formatted post with bullets and all that(Lawl Goon). Just an idea and some blocks of words. ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
Thaadd Sligo Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:54:00 - [6] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Pretty sure we were promised something along the lines of T2 veldspar quite a long time ago in 0.0 to make it actually realistic to supply ourselves with low ends. As it stands its still cheaper to mine high ends in 0.0, move the high ends to empire, then spend numerous trips running a very large quantity of trit back to 0.0 in a jump freighter via XL Torps(The best trit compression rate) I know it's crazy, but you could just give us a veldspar that has 4-8x the yield in trit. Beyond pvp, sov benefits, and moon mining there is almost no reason to stay in 0.0. Certainly none of it stacks risk vs reward Endorsing this - if you try to mine anything but Ark or Bistot you get grief, it is not cost effective use of time. #1 Don't fly what you can't lose.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:56:00 - [7] I've read some ideas forwarded to me by Nyphur that spoke of integrating 'veins' of better ore in larger asteroids. Some other ideas I've been thinking about Ore: Following on from Nyphur's idea, addressing the fact that ores all seem neatly separated I think it would be interesting if the ores were mixed together in asteroids, and that there would be minable and non-minable components. The miner would need to target 'sections' of the asteroid. The clever miner would know which areas had the best ratio of ores and mine them preferentially. This system would make it more difficult for miners to selectively remove the entire supply of one kind of ore, and also make optimising mining income more of a specialist, engaging pursuit. For this to work asteroids would need to be: - Bigger, much bigger - Contain different targetable sections - Become heterogenous, with some sections that cannot be mined The compound asteroids would work to the effect of creating more varieties of ore, in which can be integrated what Ed mentioned - whereby there could be veins (as Nyphur suggested) of much higher quality ore.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:00:00 - [8] Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 03/12/2008 14:01:30 Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I've read some ideas forwarded to me by Nyphur that spoke of integrating 'veins' of better ore in larger asteroids. Some other ideas I've been thinking about Ore: Following on from Nyphur's idea, addressing the fact that ores all seem neatly separated I think it would be interesting if the ores were mixed together in asteroids, and that there would be minable and non-minable components. The miner would need to target 'sections' of the asteroid. The clever miner would know which areas had the best ratio of ores and mine them preferentially. This system would make it more difficult for miners to selectively remove the entire supply of one kind of ore, and also make optimising mining income more of a specialist, engaging pursuit. For this to work asteroids would need to be: - Bigger, much bigger - Contain different targetable sections - Become heterogenous, with some sections that cannot be mined The compound asteroids would work to the effect of creating more varieties of ore, in which can be integrated what Ed mentioned - whereby there could be veins (as Nyphur suggested) of much higher quality ore. What stops y ou from using 8 mining lasers on anything, canceling the cycle 2 seconds in and seeing what ore you get from each part of the rock? (Taking all skill out of it just simply making it so you cant mine by labels) Edit: In effect the only thing you would accomplish is make mining more time consuming with almost no real benefit(Unless you gave a higher yield than you currently do) ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:08:00 - [9] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources What stops y ou from using 8 mining lasers on anything, canceling the cycle 2 seconds in and seeing what ore you get from each part of the rock? (Taking all skill out of it just simply making it so you cant mine by labels) Let's think in 3d, comrade. Your question is quite reasonable as I didn't go into much depth with my previous post. As mentioned, I envision an asteroid has targetable 'sub-sections'. Stripping of these 'sub-sections' may reveal other ores lying deeper - similar to mining in the real world, where you may find veins of different minerals. This principle, if applied, could encourage an exploratory approach, in my opinion. They're called prospectors afterall! Furthermore you will appreciate that this suggestion works with the conditions I gave - i.e. much, much larger asteroids. It would almost be like digging for oil, or breaking open a stone to find crystals inside. Also, you may recall I mentioned that asteroids could have unminable sections - or sections with very little mineral value - it is not just a question of strip-mining everything in sight. Thinking further upon this, this can give a different function for the survey scanner. I'll post this in another reply.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:11:00 - [10] A very interesting idea but you would probably have to change the way things registered in your overview so you were unable to see the things inside from the get go. If they could do this that would be fantastic but in reality I think simply asking for a better yield low end mineral as the limits to what ccp can do on the short term ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:12:00 - [11] Rethinking the survey scanner (with the assumptions of the previous ideas) Survey scanner acts in the same way as the directional scanner - i.e. you can set the angle and depth to scan up to. The results would be given in density - with better ores usually being more dense. Naturally, the accuracy would be given as a range with a margin of error, which would increase if you were scanning a wider angle or a greater depth. This would guide miners who want to navigate into the 'bigger' asteroids and find valuable ores lying beneath unassuming veldspar, for instance, or who wish to triangulate the parameters of a dark ochre vein they had just found. Accuracy would be better with named/t2 versions. This would probably give someone a reason to use a T2 survey scanner (I never found a reason when I used to mine).
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:14:00 - [12] Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 03/12/2008 14:14:51 Yes but to make these objects remain off your overview they would either need a way to temporarily hide them or make them spawn as the layer was stripped. Somehow I think that would be more of a long term goal and not something to fix just one of the many woes of 0.0 logistics Also it would require a very expansive change to every belt in the game. ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:16:00 - [13] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources A very interesting idea but you would probably have to change the way things registered in your overview so you were unable to see the things inside from the get go. If they could do this that would be fantastic but in reality I think simply asking for a better yield low end mineral as the limits to what ccp can do on the short term Naturally, there is only so much that can be done. If this idea is formally written up and gets adequate support it could happen sooner than soon(tm).
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:18:00 - [14] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 03/12/2008 14:14:51 Yes but to make these objects remain off your overview they would either need a way to temporarily hide them or make them spawn as the layer was stripped. Somehow I think that would be more of a long term goal and not something to fix just one of the many woes of 0.0 logistics Also it would require a very expansive change to every belt in the game. I agree with you - it's not simple or easy to apply. I do think it's worth turning into a proposal for CCP to consider for the future though. Meanwhile if anything short-term comes to mind I'll bring it here.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Originally by: EdFromHumanResources A very interesting idea but you would probably have to change the way things registered in your overview so you were unable to see the things inside from the get go. If they could do this that would be fantastic but in reality I think simply asking for a better yield low end mineral as the limits to what ccp can do on the short term Naturally, there is only so much that can be done. If this idea is formally written up and gets adequate support it could happen sooner than soon(tm). Unfortunately I think it's less of what you suggest or how you suggest it but who endorses it at this point. If CCP sees enough of the community behind one idea they tend to put it in eventually. But we have to be vocal and constant. You can find dozens of well thought out, well formatted ideas that have died quiet deaths in this forum. The changes we have seen involved mass public outcry. ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:22:00 - [16] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Originally by: EdFromHumanResources A very interesting idea but you would probably have to change the way things registered in your overview so you were unable to see the things inside from the get go. If they could do this that would be fantastic but in reality I think simply asking for a better yield low end mineral as the limits to what ccp can do on the short term Naturally, there is only so much that can be done. If this idea is formally written up and gets adequate support it could happen sooner than soon(tm). Unfortunately I think it's less of what you suggest or how you suggest it but who endorses it at this point. If CCP sees enough of the community behind one idea they tend to put it in eventually. But we have to be vocal and constant. You can find dozens of well thought out, well formatted ideas that have died quiet deaths in this forum. The changes we have seen involved mass public outcry. That's true. Hopefully our elected CSM will pick up on this issue and do their best to give it the publicity it needs
Morrigan Shaikorth GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:38:00 - [17] Edited by: Morrigan Shaikorth on 03/12/2008 14:39:54 The problem with 0.0 compared to low or high-sec in terms of mining is there is a tremendous variation in the risk:reward ratio between the different areas and types of ore. òMining in highsec is almost perfectly safe and as long as you're not doing anything particularly stupid, almost impossible to die doing. The downside to this is the relatively low ISK/hour made. òMining in lowsec has better asteroids full of more valuable minerals, but the downside is unless you're careful, you can get ganked in the belts. This hurts the standings of the person attacking you, but most lowsec pirates don't care. The higher value of the minerals, especially isogen and Nocxium, make mining in lowsec worth it in quiet systems. òMining in 0.0 nets you the most profit, but it comes at the greatest risk. Roving bands of gankers will periodically sweep through your system and attempt to kill anything they can find. Thanks to the probing changes you require either a POS, a station, or a cloaking device to avoid them for any real length of time. Even multiple safespots aren't proof against a skilled covops pilot scanning for you. The downside to mining in 0.0, is the only minerals worth the effort is the high ends Arkanor, Bistot and Crokite. While very valuable, Megacyte alone does not a Battleship make. 0.0 ship and module construction relies on a tremendous amount of mineral importation from highsec. This mineral importation increases the costs associated with the ships by several factors, and diminishes the ability of a single player or small group to effectively fight in 0.0. The massive difference in the ISK made hourly and the obvious danger involved in sitting stationary in a belt for long periods of time means that only the most profitable asteroids are mined, and only then when players cannot Rat or do other things. This means that 0.0 miners will not just preferentially mine the Big Three; they will only mine the Big Three. This means there is no local production of minerals outside of rat loot being refined, and that is a very small number compared to the daily mineral spawns in a given belt. This same problem exists for Ices as they do for minerals. òMining Ice in highsec, aside from the off chance that a suicide ganker pops your ship or can, is very safe. A skilled player should never be killed mining in highsec. Thus you can mine effectively 23/7 without fear of loss. òMining Ice in lowsec offers vastly increased risk for no net gain in profit, and therefore foolish, bordering on suicidal, so we're ignoring it. òMining Ice in 0.0, even with the more valuable ices, still doesn't offer the risk:reward ratio required for anybody to do it. Netting 350 units of isotopes per ice chunk compared to 300 units in highsec doesn't incentivise local mining of ice. It's better to import macromined ices from highsec through a convoluted system of relay towers in a Jump Freighter than it is to have mining ops in 0.0. You make a staggering 15% more in 0.0 mining for isotopes than you do in empire, for 100% more chances to lose your ship and pod. The best way to make players mine for the materials they need to supply themselves in 0.0, is to raise the total value of the materials they mine to be more in line with the most valuable minerals. Once the Arc/Bistot/Crokite is depleted, everyone will stop mining and start ratting, or doing other money making activities like missions. The best method of changing the Risk/Reward ratio of mining lowends and isotope bearing ices in 0.0 is to increase the yield of the raw ore. Saturated Veldspar, with a yield of 5000 units of Tritanium, would be worth as much as Arkanor on a volumetric basis, which allows miners to gather low-end minerals in 0.0 while still maintaining the risk/reward ratio that mining for high-ends gives them. The same holds true for ices, using the locally available high end mineral as a guide, adjust the yields of the ices so that at historic marke
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:46:00 - [18] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo That's true. Hopefully our elected CSM will pick up on this issue and do their best to give it the publicity it needs As an alt, you can raise issues too. At least we allowed for that during CSM1. So get busy
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:48:00 - [19] Awesome someone did a fancy bulleted list with good points for what i was suggesting :) Also other avenues to make this more feasible is giving 0.0 stations and pos an innate reduction to the amount of low ends BPO's require simply because of where they are(How you justify this in an RP sense I don't really care) ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:59:00 - [20] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo That's true. Hopefully our elected CSM will pick up on this issue and do their best to give it the publicity it needs As an alt, you can raise issues too. At least we allowed for that during CSM1. So get busy I'd personally love to raise the issue, I am attempting to find someone to help me raise it because unorganized blobs of text are unlikely to get pushed through ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
Morrigan Shaikorth GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 15:11:00 - [21] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources I'd personally love to raise the issue, I am attempting to find someone to help me raise it because unorganized blobs of text are unlikely to get pushed through I'll Manifesto it complete with skills and numbers in a few days. Finals are eating my ass alive right now though.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 15:16:00 - [22] Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth Originally by: EdFromHumanResources I'd personally love to raise the issue, I am attempting to find someone to help me raise it because unorganized blobs of text are unlikely to get pushed through I'll Manifesto it complete with skills and numbers in a few days. Finals are eating my ass alive right now though. I'd really appreciate that. ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 15:31:00 - [23] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo That's true. Hopefully our elected CSM will pick up on this issue and do their best to give it the publicity it needs As an alt, you can raise issues too. At least we allowed for that during CSM1. So get busy Holy crap! I didn't know that!
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 15:32:00 - [24] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth Originally by: EdFromHumanResources I'd personally love to raise the issue, I am attempting to find someone to help me raise it because unorganized blobs of text are unlikely to get pushed through I'll Manifesto it complete with skills and numbers in a few days. Finals are eating my ass alive right now though. I'd really appreciate that. I'm interested in bringing this up - we'll be in touch.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.12.03 18:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth òMining in lowsec has better asteroids full of more valuable minerals, but the downside is unless you're careful, you can get ganked in the belts. This hurts the standings of the person attacking you, but most lowsec pirates don't care. The higher value of the minerals, especially isogen and Nocxium, make mining in lowsec worth it in quiet systems. This assumption is wildly incorrect. You make more isk per hour mining in highsec than lowsec. The lowsec-only ore is worth LESS per hour (or per unit volume) than veldspar or scordite because of the differences in mineral prices compared to the NPC base values upon which the current ore distribution system was predicated. That was the key issue I raised last year, that ore in lowsec isn't better than that in highsec, it's different. It yields different minerals rather than increased quantities of the same minerals and therefore mining in lowsec isn't inherently better than mining in highsec. It's only better when trit prices are low or isogen/nocxium prices are extremely high, neither of which is guaranteed or currently true. Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth The best way to make players mine for the materials they need to supply themselves in 0.0, is to raise the total value of the materials they mine to be more in line with the most valuable minerals. Once the Arc/Bistot/Crokite is depleted, everyone will stop mining and start ratting, or doing other money making activities like missions. As the opening of the drone regions proved, players WILL export cheap minerals if they're made available. Any change to massively increase lowend mineral availability in 0.0 will have to be met with a massive nerf to standard logistic methods. Minerals could be multiplied in size, for example, but then ore compression becomes a logistical transport mechanism. And increasing the ore volume would make hauling for mining ops irritating. The solution in my opinion is to give industrial ships (normal ones) the ability to store ore more efficiently, using a smaller amount of space than normal. So we can multiply ore volumes by 10 but give industrials a sort of 10x compression for all ore they carry. The alternative is to give them a cargo bay and an ore bay, the latter of which could only hold ore but would be massive. There are a lot of ideas to discuss regarding mining. I described some in a thread last year called Mining Mk III and Skagga recieved a copy of a proposal I wrote on lowsec which contained a portion dealing with mining in lowsec. Even though it's looking like I completely wasted my time on that and CCP aren't interested in it at all, they do seem to want to overhaul mining at some point. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Retrofitted Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.12.03 21:25:00 - [26] Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 03/12/2008 21:44:27 Definitely a good idea, mining really is tragically unprofitable as things stand and i can't see a downside to veldspar that yielded drastically more, really need stuff like this to give people a reason to venture out of high sec. Endorse
Morrigan Shaikorth GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.04 02:08:00 - [27] Originally by: Nyphur This assumption is wildly incorrect. You make more isk per hour mining in highsec than lowsec, although technically you could mine veld/scord in lowsec and make just as much as in highsec. The lowsec-only ore is worth LESS per hour (or per unit volume) than veldspar or scordite because of the differences in mineral prices compared to the NPC base values upon which the current ore distribution system was predicated. That was the key issue I raised last year, that ore in lowsec isn't better than that in highsec, it's different. It yields different minerals rather than increased quantities of the same minerals and therefore mining in lowsec isn't inherently better than mining in highsec. It's only better when trit prices are low or isogen/nocxium prices are extremely high, neither of which is guaranteed or currently true. As the opening of the drone regions proved, players WILL export cheap minerals if they're made available. Any change to massively increase lowend mineral availability in 0.0 will have to be met with a massive nerf to standard logistic methods. Minerals could be multiplied in size, for example, but then ore compression becomes a logistical transport mechanism. And increasing the ore volume would make hauling for mining ops irritating. The solution in my opinion is to give industrial ships (normal ones) the ability to store ore more efficiently, using a smaller amount of space than normal. So we can multiply ore volumes by 10 but give industrials a sort of 10x compression for all ore they carry. The alternative is to give them a cargo bay and an ore bay, the latter of which could only hold ore but would be massive. I stand corrected on the value of lowsec mining, but I fail to see how another logistics nerf would be required if minerals were availible in 0.0. It's already really god damned hard to build anything bigger than a cruiser in 0.0 as it is, making minerals bigger or fiddling with how the ore is stored will just nullify the changes made. Why would you go through all the effort to make mining low-ends in 0.0 easier just to make doing anything with the ore you recovered that much more difficult? Short of a jump freighter, it's almost impossible to move minerals in the quantities required to build BSs in 0.0 currently, why in the name of god would you want it made even more difficult? CCP has stated that they want 0.0 to be more friendly to smaller corps and newer players, and making it still require a stupidly expensive ship and a highly skilled alt to move the materials your newbies mined is pretty much completely counter to the entire thrust of these changes.
Bunyip	Posted - 2008.12.04 02:41:00 - [28] Hello all, I had an idea similar to this called Ore Distribution on my webpage. I plan on pushing it in a future CSM meeting, but for now, a few other issues take priority. You can view the idea by clicking on my signature on the bottom. If somebody wants to raise this issue for me (if you deem it has merit), I would be honored. My biggest concern right now is Meta 0 Rat Droppings, followed by Exploration Belts, etc. "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.12.04 19:54:00 - [29] Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth Short of a jump freighter, it's almost impossible to move minerals in the quantities required to build BSs in 0.0 currently, why in the name of god would you want it made even more difficult? If this super-ore was put into 0.0, you wouldn't need to haul minerals in. I was under the impression that you wanted to essentially replace mineral logistics with local mining, not just augment it. The reason that a logistical nerf would be needed is because you're talking about giving them something like 40m/hour worth of lowends from mining in 0.0 and there's no guarantee it'll be used locally. I suppose you're right though and honestly, exporting minerals might not be a bad thing. I just don't think that making as much isk from veldspar in 0.0 as crokite makes sense. I agree that it should be more financially feasible to mine the lowend minerals locally but that doesn't mean it should be as profitable as arkanor etc. I am of the opinion that almost all ore should be available in all sec levels but that its quality should vary dramatically across the sec level range. So you'd have ****ty Jaspet and Hemorphite in highsec and better than normal veldspar in lowsec, for example. That way the ore in lower sec levels would be inherently better than that in higher levels rather than being different. This could be most simply implemented as a kind of illegal blast-mining that you can use in lowsec/0.0 to increase the concentration of ore in asteroids based on sec level. So you'd blast the veldspar in a 0.1 system and it'd blow apart the rock and leave only the more concentrated 200% yield ore and in 0.0, veldspar could get a 300-400% increase when blasted. The lowsec-only ores like Jaspet and Hemorphite wouldn't be blastable but there would be a 0.0 equivalent that works on those too. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Morrigan Shaikorth GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.05 09:53:00 - [30] Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 04/12/2008 20:05:08 Stuff I looked at what you wrote way back in 2007, and most of the mineral changes I can get behind, it's pretty much a fleshed out version of what I wanted. The 'basket of minerals' and Plat insurance as price limiters is a very salient point to make about how the mineral market as a whole runs. And the 'basket effect' can be seen right now, as the huge sums of trit for capital ship production are increasing the cost of trit and forcing a slump in the cost of mid and high ends in addition to general inflation of ship prices. Some of your assumptions don't make much sense, given my personal experience with deep 0.0 logistics and mining. The 0.0 regions would export low-ends and screw up the market. 1) The logistics boats are run on a cost per cubic meter per jump basis. it costs you X amount of fuel per jump, with Y jumps to get to the target system. For myself, it was about 30 million ISK round trip from our home region to lowsec and back in a carrier. My carrier, completely cargo expanded, could hold about 25k m^3. This means ever cubic meter of crap I carry costs me 1,200 ISK. This flat rate fee means the item must either have a much higher buying price in empire, or it needs to be so value dense that the fee is a small portion of the total cost. Here is a valid comparison. A cubic meter of megacyte costs about 265k right now. Adding the extra 1200 ISK fee means almost nothing, less than 1%, which you lose on broker fees anyway. Thus if empire is 10% higher than local markets for megacyte, it makes sense to export it to highsec and sell. A cubic meter of tritanium on the other hand, only costs 400 ISK per cubic meter. That 1200 ISK transportation fee suddenly adds a great deal of cost to the load. Using the best compression items brings the value density of Trit up above megacyte, allowing for the importation of lowends at a reasonable cost. It still adds both time and complexity to the industrial task of building a BS, but it remains feasible. 2) (1B really) In order to compress the low-ends into items for transport, it requires a great deal of factory slots. This slots come at a steep premium in 0.0 space, and would be subject to '3 stooges syndrome' if anyone tried to export lowends in bulk. 3) Local demand out strips supply considerably. Given the amount of destruction caused in any real 0.0 war, BS losses on the order of 20+ per day can be seen quite often. That's a impressive sum of trit, which makes exporting it for profit takes both time, effort, precious build slots, and depletes the local supply kinda dumb. From personal experience, exporting for profit only happens when a substantial sub of ISK can be made in the process. If miners can locally produce everything needed to build a BS and not take a huge profit hit doing so, most people will happily mine away at whatever they feel has the most value, bit it personal profit, or corp level industrial projects. I know I would personally take my hulk out and mine up enough minerals to produce a batch of cruisers and frigates for the new players in my group. It's a hell of a lot easier to take the profit hit than it is to go all the way from southern Esoteria to lowsec, compress a bunch of minerals, cart them back home, and refine them than it is to just haul it back to the station and pres butan.

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