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Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.12.05 18:24:00 - [31] Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth Some of your assumptions don't make much sense, given my personal experience with deep 0.0 logistics and mining. The 0.0 regions would export low-ends and screw up the market. Well that's really only one assumption but you're quite correct that it's not proven. However, I've lived in a little corner of 0.0 before where the hauler spawns dropped 45-90m of trit a time and the demand for trit there was not outstripped by the supply. We actually DID have people exporting it through mineral compression. So that assumption was based on personal experience even if that experience proves to be the minority in 0.0 (which I'm well aware that it is). I'm willing to concede that tritanium and pyerite are currently not easy enough to export to be significantly worth it. But are you specifically suggesting we only only super tritanium or don't you want high quality kernite, isogen etc? At what point would the other minerals be feasible to export? Quote: If miners can locally produce everything needed to build a BS and not take a huge profit hit doing so, most people will happily mine away at whatever they feel has the most value, bit it personal profit, or corp level industrial projects. I know I would personally take my hulk out and mine up enough minerals to produce a batch of cruisers and frigates for the new players in my group. It's a hell of a lot easier to take the profit hit than it is to go all the way from southern Esoteria to lowsec, compress a bunch of minerals, cart them back home, and refine them than it is to just haul it back to the station and pres butan. When I lived in 0.0, I had the most irritating experience. I wanted to mine the ore to build things but losing out on 20-30m/hour by mining veldspar just made it completely infeasible. It's currently not feasible to mine minerals locally and while making as much isk/hour from every ore in 0.0 would solve that problem, I think that's overkill. You also have to consider that mineral prices are not static, so there really is no way to balance it so that you make as much isk on each ore. All we need is for it to be made significantly more feasible to mine lowends. If I could make about half as much isk per hour mining jaspet or veldspar in 0.0 as I could mining the ABC's, I'd definitely do it for the sake of local production. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.05 19:22:00 - [32] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth Some of your assumptions don't make much sense, given my personal experience with deep 0.0 logistics and mining. The 0.0 regions would export low-ends and screw up the market. Well that's really only one assumption but you're quite correct that it's not proven. However, I've lived in a little corner of 0.0 before where the hauler spawns dropped 45-90m of trit a time and the demand for trit there was not outstripped by the supply. We actually DID have people exporting it through mineral compression. So that assumption was based on personal experience even if that experience proves to be the minority in 0.0 (which I'm well aware that it is). I'm willing to concede that tritanium and pyerite are currently not easy enough to export to be significantly worth it. But are you specifically suggesting we only only super tritanium or don't you want high quality kernite, isogen etc? At what point would the other minerals be feasible to export? Quote: If miners can locally produce everything needed to build a BS and not take a huge profit hit doing so, most people will happily mine away at whatever they feel has the most value, bit it personal profit, or corp level industrial projects. I know I would personally take my hulk out and mine up enough minerals to produce a batch of cruisers and frigates for the new players in my group. It's a hell of a lot easier to take the profit hit than it is to go all the way from southern Esoteria to lowsec, compress a bunch of minerals, cart them back home, and refine them than it is to just haul it back to the station and pres butan. When I lived in 0.0, I had the most irritating experience. I wanted to mine the ore to build things but losing out on 20-30m/hour by mining veldspar just made it completely infeasible. It's currently not feasible to mine minerals locally and while making as much isk/hour from every ore in 0.0 would solve that problem, I think that's overkill. You also have to consider that mineral prices are not static, so there really is no way to balance it so that you make as much isk on each ore. All we need is for it to be made significantly more feasible to mine lowends. If I could make about half as much isk per hour mining jaspet or veldspar in 0.0 as I could mining the ABC's, I'd definitely do it for the sake of local production. So the small scale operations would export it whereas the larger ones(The ones this would really be for) would finally be making even on things. I don't see this as destroying the economy especially with the massive increase in trit prices. ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
GulletSplitter Minmatar Maasai Tribal Products Independent Faction	Posted - 2008.12.05 19:59:00 - [33] Wonder if they'll go the "unrefined reaction" route. Take 25 units of megacyte and change it over to 250000 units of tritanium. Something along those lines...
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.12.05 21:39:00 - [34] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources So the small scale operations would export it whereas the larger ones(The ones this would really be for) would finally be making even on things. I don't see this as destroying the economy especially with the massive increase in trit prices. Did I inadvertantly say that? I certainly didn't mean to imply the economy would be destroyed by the change . EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Morrigan Shaikorth GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.06 01:06:00 - [35] Originally by: Nyphur Did I inadvertantly say that? I certainly didn't mean to imply the economy would be destroyed by the change . It was kinda implied in the old mining mk II thread you posted, and I cross posted some of your stuff to this one, so ehh,kinda. I'd like the sliding scale to apply to all minerals, so everyone has a choice about what to mine no matter their location. I suppose the difference between our two corps is you guys don't have the player base we do. I can count on people to buy dozens of battleships per week on the open market down south, almost as fast as they're made. That's way more trit than hauler spawns can account for, which is why we end up needing mineral compression. The other thing we use a ton of trit for is capital ships, and making a MS or Titan in 0.0 without all the shuffling of materials makes for a much easier time if you can buy locally produced stuff at or about the jita prices.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.12.06 13:57:00 - [36] Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth I suppose the difference between our two corps is you guys don't have the player base we do. This isn't about corp size, my reference was when ISS were in Tenerifis. The navy never bothered to exploit the masses of minerals on the market down in C3-0YD and as a result we had dirt cheap trit and dirt cheap highends packed on the market. So it's really a matter of organisation. We can assume that any decent 0.0 pvp-oriented force is going to tear through lowend minerals so fast they'll need to import as that's the norm. But with ISS I saw a condition that I've also seen in other areas of 0.0 - without a strongly organised pvp force in the area, cheap trit builds up on the market and some people DO end up exporting it. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.12.10 06:51:00 - [37] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth I suppose the difference between our two corps is you guys don't have the player base we do. This isn't about corp size, my reference was when ISS were in Tenerifis. Not to belittle your point, but its not 2005-2006 anymore. These days, low ends are hoovered up by battleship and capital ship manufacturing in virtually all areas of 0.0. Its a constant arms race even during peacetime. Plus, ISS was a fluke, or perhaps a moment of calm. Peaceful areas of 0.0 where you might hypothetically be able to stockpile lowends are rare to nonexistant. Additionally, the loot nerf of T1 mods being ginormous in size removes a lot of the source of those excess lowends--you can't rat for a day and melt down your takings into a few million trit anymore (unless you have a hauler following you). A dread requires over 100 million trit. A battleship: several million. A titan uses several billion units. However, trit is trit; barring alliance ops to suck up the belts it is still far and away more profitable to tap the high ends than veldspar, and people don't mine for free. So the lowends go relatively untouched. Thus far CCP's efforts have been more to shove the square peg in the round hole; they nerfed carriers-as-cargoships, nerfed mineral compression, and introduced multi-billion isk ships to handle jump logistics. This still doesn't address the innate unprofitability of mining lowends and how its still cheaper to import than mine locally; they don't make mining lowends attractive, they've just been trying to make importation unnatractive. On top of that, a lot of 0.0 space is utter crap when it comes to ore types; most of the systems are functionally identical to lowsec aside from bubbles and rats. Making the 0.0 lowends somehow more potent would go a great deal towards balancing their cost-effectiveness--it would offer incentives to mine instead of import. This would in turn starve the macrominers, which is what CCP would ideally want (or so they say; they do love those subscription $$ though). tl;dr: CCP needs to offer carrots, not sticks, to encourage nulsec lowend mining.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.12.10 13:26:00 - [38] Edited by: Nyphur on 10/12/2008 13:26:00 Originally by: Fuujin Not to belittle your point, but its not 2005-2006 anymore.. These days, low ends are hoovered up by battleship and capital ship manufacturing in virtually all areas of 0.0. Its a constant arms race even during peacetime. Plus, ISS was a fluke, or perhaps a moment of calm. Peaceful areas of 0.0 where you might hypothetically be able to stockpile lowends are rare to nonexistant. That was pretty much my point. That when there's an excess of minerals (even trit) and nobody there to capitalise on it, people do export. It's rare that those conditions actually happen now but if they do happen in the future, there's an established precident for assuming people will export. Not that this is a bad thing, just that it has to be considered for the sake of argument and not dismissed as an impossibility. The tie-in I was trying to make with the high quality ore concept was that if we want to make local mining the primary source for minerals in 0.0, increasing the yield significantly is a start but logistics has to be considered at the same time. Otherwise we could have another drone-region type fiasco on our hands. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Mra Rednu Amarr FiFi LaFey Recruitment Services LTD	Posted - 2008.12.10 14:37:00 - [39] I not really read the thread but if 0.0 wants higher quality low ends then empire want low quality high ends, give empire a chance to mine the good stuff abit lower quality and you can have veld at better quality, sounds fair to me !
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.12.10 16:50:00 - [40] Originally by: Nyphur The tie-in I was trying to make with the high quality ore concept was that if we want to make local mining the primary source for minerals in 0.0, increasing the yield significantly is a start but logistics has to be considered at the same time. Otherwise we could have another drone-region type fiasco on our hands. So what if we do? Plus, I don't know if you can compare lowends to highends on an apples-to-apples basis, even with the drone regions. Drone regions offered pre-compressed alloys that could be shipped to empire and reprocessed as-is. They offered increased amounts of high-ends that sold at thousands of isk per unit--definitely attractive. More potent ore would not be able to be shipped wholesale to empire in its native form. A rorqual would be required, and even then you could just not have compression BPOs for it. Low end minerals are bulky when you try to equal the value of high end exportation. It takes a whole Charon to equal a bustard's worth of high ends. Some exportation may happen, but it won't be NEAR that of the local macrominers' output. Drone regions and various alliance mining of ABC allows mass importation of mega and zyd, and their level of importation directly controls the price since those minerals are all but unavailable in empire. Trit, Pyer, Mex, Iso, and even nocxium can all be acquired without leaving the umbrella of Concord, so alliances and nulsec entities have far less control over their prices from a supply side of things (demand is another issue altogether). And even then...depressed lowends aren't a bad thing. It actually adds value to lowsec and nulsec. Right now you can do just fine mining plagio and veld; mining lowsec is an interesting proposition but foolish. And as mentioned, most nulsec is barely better or equal to lowsec.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.12.10 18:24:00 - [41] Edited by: Nyphur on 10/12/2008 18:24:26 Originally by: Fuujin stuff Fair points. I concede on the point of exportation being a problem. What I'd love to see happen at some point is essentially that mining becomes the primary method of mineral acquisition in EVE, not just in 0.0 but also lowsec and highsec. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:58:00 - [42] Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 10/12/2008 18:24:26 Fair points. I concede on the point of exportation being a problem. What I'd love to see happen at some point is essentially that mining becomes the primary method of mineral acquisition in EVE, not just in 0.0 but also lowsec and highsec. Agreed on that. But for that to happen for deep 0.0, CCP will either have to make importation totally impossible/unworkable (which will cause 0.0 to atrophy, not expand) or make 0.0 lowend mining more attractive/profitable (which will enable/encourage more players to leave hisec in search of better profits). Thus far, its been all of column A and none of column B. Though I may try to set up a refinery fed by an offline Corp hangar array to see if it spits out trit.... -Hey, gotta laugh somehow.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.12.12 12:31:00 - [43] All ores should be available in all space, the ore in lowsec should give at least 2x that in highsec, and the ore in 0.0 at least 4x. It should be yield based improvement so that miners can perform their function of levelling out the mineral prices to around what they are supposed to be by just mining the most valuable at the time. Also it would mean that even if external factors changed the price of minerals, lowsec would always be worth more than highsec. I can't see people mining in lowsec without at least a 2x incentive, currently it is a joke that lowsec mining has been less valuable than highsec since the drone regions were introduced (where nocxium and isogen flow in rivers because people droning can't choose their minerals so carefully). Giving people an incentive to mine in lowsec means more targets, more traders, more targets, more miners etc etc. It also means more player-driven stability. Which is of course the right way to regulate a market.
Roymundo	Posted - 2008.12.25 05:02:00 - [44] Edited by: Roymundo on 25/12/2008 05:02:46
Roymundo	Posted - 2008.12.25 05:03:00 - [45] Originally by: LaVista Vista Interesting idea. Will have to think about that. i'm new to the whole csm duties thing, but are you meant to represent the players voice or make decisions for them?
Mr LaboratoryRat	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:33:00 - [46] i think low end ores are for high sec. Low sec is a joke, unwanted space, home for pirates. So u shouldnt be able to mine in low sec in the first place. The drone regions are ment for a constant supply for all sorts of ores to keep the prices low of medium ores like nox and iso. 0.0 space is lawless space. Best way to make isk is still ratting. I can make 40m easy per hour in my own. Mining in 0.0 solo gives me the same. That includes warping out every 25min to get my bs ship en hauling the ore every 2 hours. Im only mining mercoxit because only that comes close to ratting. If i want to mine properly i need atleast a corp mate with me to kill the rats. That allows me to make 55 mil per hour (mercoxit only) but that need to be split in 2. That gives me a radical idea. Mining veldspar in 0.0 is insane anyway so lets remove the low end ores out of the systhems that have a true sec of -0.90 and higher (example -0.95) and let more high end ore spawn because people there are mining the high ends only anyway that occeur only there. In return of that, hauler spawns need to spawn more in systhems that have a npc station so people will bother to haul the 75 milion trit and dump it on the market. Next thing is to reduce the spawn frequenty of npc's in those -0.90 and higher systhems so people can make more isk each hour and it will be more profitable to mine in 0.0. This will cause that the high end ores will go down. High end ores are expensive these days in high sec. I know that there are only a few -0.90 true sec systems, ratters have plenty of other systems to rat in. Third thing that need to be adjusted is the yield of the high en ores. It's too low, i can still make more isk per hour by ratting (exept mining mercoxit). Why do i mine if i can shoot some easy rats? there is only one answere possible that is called ISK. If i can make 60m or 70mil per hour mining i go mine instead of ratting. 60m /70m per hour should be the rate that u should be earning by mining in the best mining systems there are. In the end it turns around 2 things in 0.0 Fun (pew pew) and the way to support it. At this moment ratting is more rewardfull then mining. But ratting doesnt fund the eve economy .
shoot me House Harkonnen	Posted - 2008.12.29 21:05:00 - [47] I don't see what the problem is. If the price of low end minerals in 0.0 makes it unprofitable to mine then there cant be a supply shortage. I don't think CCP should introduce a super concentrated form of veld just because some people in 0.0 cant be bothered to mine what's there already.
Earthican Minmatar DARKFELL EXCURSIONS	Posted - 2009.01.01 21:06:00 - [48] If it lowers trit prices I support it 111%
steejans nix Amarr 0beron Construct Shadow Empire.	Posted - 2009.01.04 17:40:00 - [49] Originally by: shoot me I don't see what the problem is. If the price of low end minerals in 0.0 makes it unprofitable to mine then there cant be a supply shortage. I don't think CCP should introduce a super concentrated form of veld just because some people in 0.0 cant be bothered to mine what's there already. This
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.01.08 20:23:00 - [50] Originally by: shoot me I don't see what the problem is. If the price of low end minerals in 0.0 makes it unprofitable to mine then there cant be a supply shortage. I don't think CCP should introduce a super concentrated form of veld just because some people in 0.0 cant be bothered to mine what's there already. The problem is that the amount of veld/trit in nulsec is insufficient for heavy industry unless you mine out every system in a large radius. Importation is a must for modern alliances to maintain their capital and battleship fleets. Increasing the potency/availability of lowends in nulsec would not only add value to the currently crap areas where you currently don't get any better then hed/hemo, but would also make it economically feasible to mine locally without requiring trit to spike to 6 isk/unit--trit is already WAY out of balance with the other minerals. Its not a simple market issue. Its a nulsec/lowsec/empire value issue coupled with a volume problem.
shoot me House Harkonnen	Posted - 2009.01.09 17:03:00 - [51] I cannot accept the argument that there is not sufficient minerals available in 0.0. Almost every 0.0 system is full of roids the size of moons because no-one mines it. If anything hi-sec should get the new ore as there is nothing left in the belts! I wonder if its not the case that people prefer to sell GTC for isk to fund cap ships than get involved in the gathering of resources. Do any real industrial mining corps exist in 0.0 and low sec these days? What ever happened to fighting for resources?
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.01.09 20:27:00 - [52] Edited by: Fuujin on 09/01/2009 20:29:21 Is there enough veld out there to support a battleship program? sure. Do you know how much trit goes into a single dread though? You have to strip mine entire systems to support a capital construction program. Now add in battleship rats and roaming HAC gangs. Lots of risk there; you'll need a decent sized gang to make sure you aren't surprised and destroyed and have your hours wasted. For those EXACT SAME resources, you can sit ALONE in 0.5+ and mine afk in relative safety. Why on earth (or New Eden) would you even consider moving heavy industry out to deep 0.0? See whats broken there? The people who do choose to reach out and live in the "end game" areas--ostensibly the richest in the game--can't be self sufficient. You can get megacyte and zydrine easy (in some areas), sure. But you need hundreds of millions of units of tritanium on a very regular basis. The only economical and practical way to gather this is to do so in Empire space. The risk/reward on gathering the requisite amounts of veldspar is just too ludicrously tipped to the risk end (not to mention the mind-numbing tedium). I'm not saying to make it easy to collect lowends in nulsec. I'm just saying to make it easier.
Dastycakes THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:16:00 - [53] move to dronelands and rat plush, tons of trit in it. Hit me up ingame if you want to invest some isk and make alot of profit, hundreds of satisfied customers to date. I role play Ewok

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