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EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 11:48:00 - [1] Pretty sure we were promised something along the lines of T2 veldspar quite a long time ago in 0.0 to make it actually realistic to supply ourselves with low ends. As it stands its still cheaper to mine high ends in 0.0, move the high ends to empire, then spend numerous trips running a very large quantity of trit back to 0.0 in a jump freighter via XL Torps(The best trit compression rate) I know it's crazy, but you could just give us a veldspar that has 4-8x the yield in trit. Beyond pvp, sov benefits, and moon mining there is almost no reason to stay in 0.0. Certainly none of it stacks risk vs reward ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:28:00 - [2] Tier 2 =! T2 and I'll have a Veldspar BPO please. Thanks. Secure 3rd party service LoveQuest 2008

LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:31:00 - [3] Interesting idea. Will have to think about that.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:32:00 - [4] Originally by: Chribba Tier 2 =! T2 and I'll have a Veldspar BPO please. Thanks. Yes I am completely aware of this. But they refered to it as a Tier 2 veldspar and in my mind it would be more of a tech2(Except you couldn't really have a high tech asteroid) Rorquals are neat except it makes time spent moving the trit from highsec to lowsec to compressing it to moving it out to 0.0 just unrealistic. Mining it straight in low sec isn't even remotely worth the risk and CCP seems to be doing everything they can to make it as hard on 0.0 logistics teams as possible. ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:33:00 - [5] Sorry I am not a very organized thinker, I can't make an awesomely formatted post with bullets and all that(Lawl Goon). Just an idea and some blocks of words. ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
Thaadd Sligo Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:54:00 - [6] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Pretty sure we were promised something along the lines of T2 veldspar quite a long time ago in 0.0 to make it actually realistic to supply ourselves with low ends. As it stands its still cheaper to mine high ends in 0.0, move the high ends to empire, then spend numerous trips running a very large quantity of trit back to 0.0 in a jump freighter via XL Torps(The best trit compression rate) I know it's crazy, but you could just give us a veldspar that has 4-8x the yield in trit. Beyond pvp, sov benefits, and moon mining there is almost no reason to stay in 0.0. Certainly none of it stacks risk vs reward Endorsing this - if you try to mine anything but Ark or Bistot you get grief, it is not cost effective use of time. #1 Don't fly what you can't lose.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:56:00 - [7] I've read some ideas forwarded to me by Nyphur that spoke of integrating 'veins' of better ore in larger asteroids. Some other ideas I've been thinking about Ore: Following on from Nyphur's idea, addressing the fact that ores all seem neatly separated I think it would be interesting if the ores were mixed together in asteroids, and that there would be minable and non-minable components. The miner would need to target 'sections' of the asteroid. The clever miner would know which areas had the best ratio of ores and mine them preferentially. This system would make it more difficult for miners to selectively remove the entire supply of one kind of ore, and also make optimising mining income more of a specialist, engaging pursuit. For this to work asteroids would need to be: - Bigger, much bigger - Contain different targetable sections - Become heterogenous, with some sections that cannot be mined The compound asteroids would work to the effect of creating more varieties of ore, in which can be integrated what Ed mentioned - whereby there could be veins (as Nyphur suggested) of much higher quality ore.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:00:00 - [8] Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 03/12/2008 14:01:30 Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I've read some ideas forwarded to me by Nyphur that spoke of integrating 'veins' of better ore in larger asteroids. Some other ideas I've been thinking about Ore: Following on from Nyphur's idea, addressing the fact that ores all seem neatly separated I think it would be interesting if the ores were mixed together in asteroids, and that there would be minable and non-minable components. The miner would need to target 'sections' of the asteroid. The clever miner would know which areas had the best ratio of ores and mine them preferentially. This system would make it more difficult for miners to selectively remove the entire supply of one kind of ore, and also make optimising mining income more of a specialist, engaging pursuit. For this to work asteroids would need to be: - Bigger, much bigger - Contain different targetable sections - Become heterogenous, with some sections that cannot be mined The compound asteroids would work to the effect of creating more varieties of ore, in which can be integrated what Ed mentioned - whereby there could be veins (as Nyphur suggested) of much higher quality ore. What stops y ou from using 8 mining lasers on anything, canceling the cycle 2 seconds in and seeing what ore you get from each part of the rock? (Taking all skill out of it just simply making it so you cant mine by labels) Edit: In effect the only thing you would accomplish is make mining more time consuming with almost no real benefit(Unless you gave a higher yield than you currently do) ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:08:00 - [9] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources What stops y ou from using 8 mining lasers on anything, canceling the cycle 2 seconds in and seeing what ore you get from each part of the rock? (Taking all skill out of it just simply making it so you cant mine by labels) Let's think in 3d, comrade. Your question is quite reasonable as I didn't go into much depth with my previous post. As mentioned, I envision an asteroid has targetable 'sub-sections'. Stripping of these 'sub-sections' may reveal other ores lying deeper - similar to mining in the real world, where you may find veins of different minerals. This principle, if applied, could encourage an exploratory approach, in my opinion. They're called prospectors afterall! Furthermore you will appreciate that this suggestion works with the conditions I gave - i.e. much, much larger asteroids. It would almost be like digging for oil, or breaking open a stone to find crystals inside. Also, you may recall I mentioned that asteroids could have unminable sections - or sections with very little mineral value - it is not just a question of strip-mining everything in sight. Thinking further upon this, this can give a different function for the survey scanner. I'll post this in another reply.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:11:00 - [10] A very interesting idea but you would probably have to change the way things registered in your overview so you were unable to see the things inside from the get go. If they could do this that would be fantastic but in reality I think simply asking for a better yield low end mineral as the limits to what ccp can do on the short term ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:12:00 - [11] Rethinking the survey scanner (with the assumptions of the previous ideas) Survey scanner acts in the same way as the directional scanner - i.e. you can set the angle and depth to scan up to. The results would be given in density - with better ores usually being more dense. Naturally, the accuracy would be given as a range with a margin of error, which would increase if you were scanning a wider angle or a greater depth. This would guide miners who want to navigate into the 'bigger' asteroids and find valuable ores lying beneath unassuming veldspar, for instance, or who wish to triangulate the parameters of a dark ochre vein they had just found. Accuracy would be better with named/t2 versions. This would probably give someone a reason to use a T2 survey scanner (I never found a reason when I used to mine).
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:14:00 - [12] Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 03/12/2008 14:14:51 Yes but to make these objects remain off your overview they would either need a way to temporarily hide them or make them spawn as the layer was stripped. Somehow I think that would be more of a long term goal and not something to fix just one of the many woes of 0.0 logistics Also it would require a very expansive change to every belt in the game. ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:16:00 - [13] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources A very interesting idea but you would probably have to change the way things registered in your overview so you were unable to see the things inside from the get go. If they could do this that would be fantastic but in reality I think simply asking for a better yield low end mineral as the limits to what ccp can do on the short term Naturally, there is only so much that can be done. If this idea is formally written up and gets adequate support it could happen sooner than soon(tm).
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:18:00 - [14] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 03/12/2008 14:14:51 Yes but to make these objects remain off your overview they would either need a way to temporarily hide them or make them spawn as the layer was stripped. Somehow I think that would be more of a long term goal and not something to fix just one of the many woes of 0.0 logistics Also it would require a very expansive change to every belt in the game. I agree with you - it's not simple or easy to apply. I do think it's worth turning into a proposal for CCP to consider for the future though. Meanwhile if anything short-term comes to mind I'll bring it here.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Originally by: EdFromHumanResources A very interesting idea but you would probably have to change the way things registered in your overview so you were unable to see the things inside from the get go. If they could do this that would be fantastic but in reality I think simply asking for a better yield low end mineral as the limits to what ccp can do on the short term Naturally, there is only so much that can be done. If this idea is formally written up and gets adequate support it could happen sooner than soon(tm). Unfortunately I think it's less of what you suggest or how you suggest it but who endorses it at this point. If CCP sees enough of the community behind one idea they tend to put it in eventually. But we have to be vocal and constant. You can find dozens of well thought out, well formatted ideas that have died quiet deaths in this forum. The changes we have seen involved mass public outcry. ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:22:00 - [16] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Originally by: EdFromHumanResources A very interesting idea but you would probably have to change the way things registered in your overview so you were unable to see the things inside from the get go. If they could do this that would be fantastic but in reality I think simply asking for a better yield low end mineral as the limits to what ccp can do on the short term Naturally, there is only so much that can be done. If this idea is formally written up and gets adequate support it could happen sooner than soon(tm). Unfortunately I think it's less of what you suggest or how you suggest it but who endorses it at this point. If CCP sees enough of the community behind one idea they tend to put it in eventually. But we have to be vocal and constant. You can find dozens of well thought out, well formatted ideas that have died quiet deaths in this forum. The changes we have seen involved mass public outcry. That's true. Hopefully our elected CSM will pick up on this issue and do their best to give it the publicity it needs
Morrigan Shaikorth GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:38:00 - [17] Edited by: Morrigan Shaikorth on 03/12/2008 14:39:54 The problem with 0.0 compared to low or high-sec in terms of mining is there is a tremendous variation in the risk:reward ratio between the different areas and types of ore. òMining in highsec is almost perfectly safe and as long as you're not doing anything particularly stupid, almost impossible to die doing. The downside to this is the relatively low ISK/hour made. òMining in lowsec has better asteroids full of more valuable minerals, but the downside is unless you're careful, you can get ganked in the belts. This hurts the standings of the person attacking you, but most lowsec pirates don't care. The higher value of the minerals, especially isogen and Nocxium, make mining in lowsec worth it in quiet systems. òMining in 0.0 nets you the most profit, but it comes at the greatest risk. Roving bands of gankers will periodically sweep through your system and attempt to kill anything they can find. Thanks to the probing changes you require either a POS, a station, or a cloaking device to avoid them for any real length of time. Even multiple safespots aren't proof against a skilled covops pilot scanning for you. The downside to mining in 0.0, is the only minerals worth the effort is the high ends Arkanor, Bistot and Crokite. While very valuable, Megacyte alone does not a Battleship make. 0.0 ship and module construction relies on a tremendous amount of mineral importation from highsec. This mineral importation increases the costs associated with the ships by several factors, and diminishes the ability of a single player or small group to effectively fight in 0.0. The massive difference in the ISK made hourly and the obvious danger involved in sitting stationary in a belt for long periods of time means that only the most profitable asteroids are mined, and only then when players cannot Rat or do other things. This means that 0.0 miners will not just preferentially mine the Big Three; they will only mine the Big Three. This means there is no local production of minerals outside of rat loot being refined, and that is a very small number compared to the daily mineral spawns in a given belt. This same problem exists for Ices as they do for minerals. òMining Ice in highsec, aside from the off chance that a suicide ganker pops your ship or can, is very safe. A skilled player should never be killed mining in highsec. Thus you can mine effectively 23/7 without fear of loss. òMining Ice in lowsec offers vastly increased risk for no net gain in profit, and therefore foolish, bordering on suicidal, so we're ignoring it. òMining Ice in 0.0, even with the more valuable ices, still doesn't offer the risk:reward ratio required for anybody to do it. Netting 350 units of isotopes per ice chunk compared to 300 units in highsec doesn't incentivise local mining of ice. It's better to import macromined ices from highsec through a convoluted system of relay towers in a Jump Freighter than it is to have mining ops in 0.0. You make a staggering 15% more in 0.0 mining for isotopes than you do in empire, for 100% more chances to lose your ship and pod. The best way to make players mine for the materials they need to supply themselves in 0.0, is to raise the total value of the materials they mine to be more in line with the most valuable minerals. Once the Arc/Bistot/Crokite is depleted, everyone will stop mining and start ratting, or doing other money making activities like missions. The best method of changing the Risk/Reward ratio of mining lowends and isotope bearing ices in 0.0 is to increase the yield of the raw ore. Saturated Veldspar, with a yield of 5000 units of Tritanium, would be worth as much as Arkanor on a volumetric basis, which allows miners to gather low-end minerals in 0.0 while still maintaining the risk/reward ratio that mining for high-ends gives them. The same holds true for ices, using the locally available high end mineral as a guide, adjust the yields of the ices so that at historic marke
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:46:00 - [18] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo That's true. Hopefully our elected CSM will pick up on this issue and do their best to give it the publicity it needs As an alt, you can raise issues too. At least we allowed for that during CSM1. So get busy
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:48:00 - [19] Awesome someone did a fancy bulleted list with good points for what i was suggesting :) Also other avenues to make this more feasible is giving 0.0 stations and pos an innate reduction to the amount of low ends BPO's require simply because of where they are(How you justify this in an RP sense I don't really care) ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:59:00 - [20] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo That's true. Hopefully our elected CSM will pick up on this issue and do their best to give it the publicity it needs As an alt, you can raise issues too. At least we allowed for that during CSM1. So get busy I'd personally love to raise the issue, I am attempting to find someone to help me raise it because unorganized blobs of text are unlikely to get pushed through ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
Morrigan Shaikorth GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 15:11:00 - [21] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources I'd personally love to raise the issue, I am attempting to find someone to help me raise it because unorganized blobs of text are unlikely to get pushed through I'll Manifesto it complete with skills and numbers in a few days. Finals are eating my ass alive right now though.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 15:16:00 - [22] Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth Originally by: EdFromHumanResources I'd personally love to raise the issue, I am attempting to find someone to help me raise it because unorganized blobs of text are unlikely to get pushed through I'll Manifesto it complete with skills and numbers in a few days. Finals are eating my ass alive right now though. I'd really appreciate that. ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 15:31:00 - [23] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo That's true. Hopefully our elected CSM will pick up on this issue and do their best to give it the publicity it needs As an alt, you can raise issues too. At least we allowed for that during CSM1. So get busy Holy crap! I didn't know that!
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 15:32:00 - [24] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth Originally by: EdFromHumanResources I'd personally love to raise the issue, I am attempting to find someone to help me raise it because unorganized blobs of text are unlikely to get pushed through I'll Manifesto it complete with skills and numbers in a few days. Finals are eating my ass alive right now though. I'd really appreciate that. I'm interested in bringing this up - we'll be in touch.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.12.03 18:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth òMining in lowsec has better asteroids full of more valuable minerals, but the downside is unless you're careful, you can get ganked in the belts. This hurts the standings of the person attacking you, but most lowsec pirates don't care. The higher value of the minerals, especially isogen and Nocxium, make mining in lowsec worth it in quiet systems. This assumption is wildly incorrect. You make more isk per hour mining in highsec than lowsec. The lowsec-only ore is worth LESS per hour (or per unit volume) than veldspar or scordite because of the differences in mineral prices compared to the NPC base values upon which the current ore distribution system was predicated. That was the key issue I raised last year, that ore in lowsec isn't better than that in highsec, it's different. It yields different minerals rather than increased quantities of the same minerals and therefore mining in lowsec isn't inherently better than mining in highsec. It's only better when trit prices are low or isogen/nocxium prices are extremely high, neither of which is guaranteed or currently true. Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth The best way to make players mine for the materials they need to supply themselves in 0.0, is to raise the total value of the materials they mine to be more in line with the most valuable minerals. Once the Arc/Bistot/Crokite is depleted, everyone will stop mining and start ratting, or doing other money making activities like missions. As the opening of the drone regions proved, players WILL export cheap minerals if they're made available. Any change to massively increase lowend mineral availability in 0.0 will have to be met with a massive nerf to standard logistic methods. Minerals could be multiplied in size, for example, but then ore compression becomes a logistical transport mechanism. And increasing the ore volume would make hauling for mining ops irritating. The solution in my opinion is to give industrial ships (normal ones) the ability to store ore more efficiently, using a smaller amount of space than normal. So we can multiply ore volumes by 10 but give industrials a sort of 10x compression for all ore they carry. The alternative is to give them a cargo bay and an ore bay, the latter of which could only hold ore but would be massive. There are a lot of ideas to discuss regarding mining. I described some in a thread last year called Mining Mk III and Skagga recieved a copy of a proposal I wrote on lowsec which contained a portion dealing with mining in lowsec. Even though it's looking like I completely wasted my time on that and CCP aren't interested in it at all, they do seem to want to overhaul mining at some point. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Retrofitted Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.12.03 21:25:00 - [26] Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 03/12/2008 21:44:27 Definitely a good idea, mining really is tragically unprofitable as things stand and i can't see a downside to veldspar that yielded drastically more, really need stuff like this to give people a reason to venture out of high sec. Endorse
Morrigan Shaikorth GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.04 02:08:00 - [27] Originally by: Nyphur This assumption is wildly incorrect. You make more isk per hour mining in highsec than lowsec, although technically you could mine veld/scord in lowsec and make just as much as in highsec. The lowsec-only ore is worth LESS per hour (or per unit volume) than veldspar or scordite because of the differences in mineral prices compared to the NPC base values upon which the current ore distribution system was predicated. That was the key issue I raised last year, that ore in lowsec isn't better than that in highsec, it's different. It yields different minerals rather than increased quantities of the same minerals and therefore mining in lowsec isn't inherently better than mining in highsec. It's only better when trit prices are low or isogen/nocxium prices are extremely high, neither of which is guaranteed or currently true. As the opening of the drone regions proved, players WILL export cheap minerals if they're made available. Any change to massively increase lowend mineral availability in 0.0 will have to be met with a massive nerf to standard logistic methods. Minerals could be multiplied in size, for example, but then ore compression becomes a logistical transport mechanism. And increasing the ore volume would make hauling for mining ops irritating. The solution in my opinion is to give industrial ships (normal ones) the ability to store ore more efficiently, using a smaller amount of space than normal. So we can multiply ore volumes by 10 but give industrials a sort of 10x compression for all ore they carry. The alternative is to give them a cargo bay and an ore bay, the latter of which could only hold ore but would be massive. I stand corrected on the value of lowsec mining, but I fail to see how another logistics nerf would be required if minerals were availible in 0.0. It's already really god damned hard to build anything bigger than a cruiser in 0.0 as it is, making minerals bigger or fiddling with how the ore is stored will just nullify the changes made. Why would you go through all the effort to make mining low-ends in 0.0 easier just to make doing anything with the ore you recovered that much more difficult? Short of a jump freighter, it's almost impossible to move minerals in the quantities required to build BSs in 0.0 currently, why in the name of god would you want it made even more difficult? CCP has stated that they want 0.0 to be more friendly to smaller corps and newer players, and making it still require a stupidly expensive ship and a highly skilled alt to move the materials your newbies mined is pretty much completely counter to the entire thrust of these changes.
Bunyip	Posted - 2008.12.04 02:41:00 - [28] Hello all, I had an idea similar to this called Ore Distribution on my webpage. I plan on pushing it in a future CSM meeting, but for now, a few other issues take priority. You can view the idea by clicking on my signature on the bottom. If somebody wants to raise this issue for me (if you deem it has merit), I would be honored. My biggest concern right now is Meta 0 Rat Droppings, followed by Exploration Belts, etc. "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.12.04 19:54:00 - [29] Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth Short of a jump freighter, it's almost impossible to move minerals in the quantities required to build BSs in 0.0 currently, why in the name of god would you want it made even more difficult? If this super-ore was put into 0.0, you wouldn't need to haul minerals in. I was under the impression that you wanted to essentially replace mineral logistics with local mining, not just augment it. The reason that a logistical nerf would be needed is because you're talking about giving them something like 40m/hour worth of lowends from mining in 0.0 and there's no guarantee it'll be used locally. I suppose you're right though and honestly, exporting minerals might not be a bad thing. I just don't think that making as much isk from veldspar in 0.0 as crokite makes sense. I agree that it should be more financially feasible to mine the lowend minerals locally but that doesn't mean it should be as profitable as arkanor etc. I am of the opinion that almost all ore should be available in all sec levels but that its quality should vary dramatically across the sec level range. So you'd have ****ty Jaspet and Hemorphite in highsec and better than normal veldspar in lowsec, for example. That way the ore in lower sec levels would be inherently better than that in higher levels rather than being different. This could be most simply implemented as a kind of illegal blast-mining that you can use in lowsec/0.0 to increase the concentration of ore in asteroids based on sec level. So you'd blast the veldspar in a 0.1 system and it'd blow apart the rock and leave only the more concentrated 200% yield ore and in 0.0, veldspar could get a 300-400% increase when blasted. The lowsec-only ores like Jaspet and Hemorphite wouldn't be blastable but there would be a 0.0 equivalent that works on those too. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Morrigan Shaikorth GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.05 09:53:00 - [30] Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 04/12/2008 20:05:08 Stuff I looked at what you wrote way back in 2007, and most of the mineral changes I can get behind, it's pretty much a fleshed out version of what I wanted. The 'basket of minerals' and Plat insurance as price limiters is a very salient point to make about how the mineral market as a whole runs. And the 'basket effect' can be seen right now, as the huge sums of trit for capital ship production are increasing the cost of trit and forcing a slump in the cost of mid and high ends in addition to general inflation of ship prices. Some of your assumptions don't make much sense, given my personal experience with deep 0.0 logistics and mining. The 0.0 regions would export low-ends and screw up the market. 1) The logistics boats are run on a cost per cubic meter per jump basis. it costs you X amount of fuel per jump, with Y jumps to get to the target system. For myself, it was about 30 million ISK round trip from our home region to lowsec and back in a carrier. My carrier, completely cargo expanded, could hold about 25k m^3. This means ever cubic meter of crap I carry costs me 1,200 ISK. This flat rate fee means the item must either have a much higher buying price in empire, or it needs to be so value dense that the fee is a small portion of the total cost. Here is a valid comparison. A cubic meter of megacyte costs about 265k right now. Adding the extra 1200 ISK fee means almost nothing, less than 1%, which you lose on broker fees anyway. Thus if empire is 10% higher than local markets for megacyte, it makes sense to export it to highsec and sell. A cubic meter of tritanium on the other hand, only costs 400 ISK per cubic meter. That 1200 ISK transportation fee suddenly adds a great deal of cost to the load. Using the best compression items brings the value density of Trit up above megacyte, allowing for the importation of lowends at a reasonable cost. It still adds both time and complexity to the industrial task of building a BS, but it remains feasible. 2) (1B really) In order to compress the low-ends into items for transport, it requires a great deal of factory slots. This slots come at a steep premium in 0.0 space, and would be subject to '3 stooges syndrome' if anyone tried to export lowends in bulk. 3) Local demand out strips supply considerably. Given the amount of destruction caused in any real 0.0 war, BS losses on the order of 20+ per day can be seen quite often. That's a impressive sum of trit, which makes exporting it for profit takes both time, effort, precious build slots, and depletes the local supply kinda dumb. From personal experience, exporting for profit only happens when a substantial sub of ISK can be made in the process. If miners can locally produce everything needed to build a BS and not take a huge profit hit doing so, most people will happily mine away at whatever they feel has the most value, bit it personal profit, or corp level industrial projects. I know I would personally take my hulk out and mine up enough minerals to produce a batch of cruisers and frigates for the new players in my group. It's a hell of a lot easier to take the profit hit than it is to go all the way from southern Esoteria to lowsec, compress a bunch of minerals, cart them back home, and refine them than it is to just haul it back to the station and pres butan.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.12.05 18:24:00 - [31] Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth Some of your assumptions don't make much sense, given my personal experience with deep 0.0 logistics and mining. The 0.0 regions would export low-ends and screw up the market. Well that's really only one assumption but you're quite correct that it's not proven. However, I've lived in a little corner of 0.0 before where the hauler spawns dropped 45-90m of trit a time and the demand for trit there was not outstripped by the supply. We actually DID have people exporting it through mineral compression. So that assumption was based on personal experience even if that experience proves to be the minority in 0.0 (which I'm well aware that it is). I'm willing to concede that tritanium and pyerite are currently not easy enough to export to be significantly worth it. But are you specifically suggesting we only only super tritanium or don't you want high quality kernite, isogen etc? At what point would the other minerals be feasible to export? Quote: If miners can locally produce everything needed to build a BS and not take a huge profit hit doing so, most people will happily mine away at whatever they feel has the most value, bit it personal profit, or corp level industrial projects. I know I would personally take my hulk out and mine up enough minerals to produce a batch of cruisers and frigates for the new players in my group. It's a hell of a lot easier to take the profit hit than it is to go all the way from southern Esoteria to lowsec, compress a bunch of minerals, cart them back home, and refine them than it is to just haul it back to the station and pres butan. When I lived in 0.0, I had the most irritating experience. I wanted to mine the ore to build things but losing out on 20-30m/hour by mining veldspar just made it completely infeasible. It's currently not feasible to mine minerals locally and while making as much isk/hour from every ore in 0.0 would solve that problem, I think that's overkill. You also have to consider that mineral prices are not static, so there really is no way to balance it so that you make as much isk on each ore. All we need is for it to be made significantly more feasible to mine lowends. If I could make about half as much isk per hour mining jaspet or veldspar in 0.0 as I could mining the ABC's, I'd definitely do it for the sake of local production. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.05 19:22:00 - [32] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth Some of your assumptions don't make much sense, given my personal experience with deep 0.0 logistics and mining. The 0.0 regions would export low-ends and screw up the market. Well that's really only one assumption but you're quite correct that it's not proven. However, I've lived in a little corner of 0.0 before where the hauler spawns dropped 45-90m of trit a time and the demand for trit there was not outstripped by the supply. We actually DID have people exporting it through mineral compression. So that assumption was based on personal experience even if that experience proves to be the minority in 0.0 (which I'm well aware that it is). I'm willing to concede that tritanium and pyerite are currently not easy enough to export to be significantly worth it. But are you specifically suggesting we only only super tritanium or don't you want high quality kernite, isogen etc? At what point would the other minerals be feasible to export? Quote: If miners can locally produce everything needed to build a BS and not take a huge profit hit doing so, most people will happily mine away at whatever they feel has the most value, bit it personal profit, or corp level industrial projects. I know I would personally take my hulk out and mine up enough minerals to produce a batch of cruisers and frigates for the new players in my group. It's a hell of a lot easier to take the profit hit than it is to go all the way from southern Esoteria to lowsec, compress a bunch of minerals, cart them back home, and refine them than it is to just haul it back to the station and pres butan. When I lived in 0.0, I had the most irritating experience. I wanted to mine the ore to build things but losing out on 20-30m/hour by mining veldspar just made it completely infeasible. It's currently not feasible to mine minerals locally and while making as much isk/hour from every ore in 0.0 would solve that problem, I think that's overkill. You also have to consider that mineral prices are not static, so there really is no way to balance it so that you make as much isk on each ore. All we need is for it to be made significantly more feasible to mine lowends. If I could make about half as much isk per hour mining jaspet or veldspar in 0.0 as I could mining the ABC's, I'd definitely do it for the sake of local production. So the small scale operations would export it whereas the larger ones(The ones this would really be for) would finally be making even on things. I don't see this as destroying the economy especially with the massive increase in trit prices. ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
GulletSplitter Minmatar Maasai Tribal Products Independent Faction	Posted - 2008.12.05 19:59:00 - [33] Wonder if they'll go the "unrefined reaction" route. Take 25 units of megacyte and change it over to 250000 units of tritanium. Something along those lines...
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.12.05 21:39:00 - [34] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources So the small scale operations would export it whereas the larger ones(The ones this would really be for) would finally be making even on things. I don't see this as destroying the economy especially with the massive increase in trit prices. Did I inadvertantly say that? I certainly didn't mean to imply the economy would be destroyed by the change . EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Morrigan Shaikorth GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.06 01:06:00 - [35] Originally by: Nyphur Did I inadvertantly say that? I certainly didn't mean to imply the economy would be destroyed by the change . It was kinda implied in the old mining mk II thread you posted, and I cross posted some of your stuff to this one, so ehh,kinda. I'd like the sliding scale to apply to all minerals, so everyone has a choice about what to mine no matter their location. I suppose the difference between our two corps is you guys don't have the player base we do. I can count on people to buy dozens of battleships per week on the open market down south, almost as fast as they're made. That's way more trit than hauler spawns can account for, which is why we end up needing mineral compression. The other thing we use a ton of trit for is capital ships, and making a MS or Titan in 0.0 without all the shuffling of materials makes for a much easier time if you can buy locally produced stuff at or about the jita prices.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.12.06 13:57:00 - [36] Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth I suppose the difference between our two corps is you guys don't have the player base we do. This isn't about corp size, my reference was when ISS were in Tenerifis. The navy never bothered to exploit the masses of minerals on the market down in C3-0YD and as a result we had dirt cheap trit and dirt cheap highends packed on the market. So it's really a matter of organisation. We can assume that any decent 0.0 pvp-oriented force is going to tear through lowend minerals so fast they'll need to import as that's the norm. But with ISS I saw a condition that I've also seen in other areas of 0.0 - without a strongly organised pvp force in the area, cheap trit builds up on the market and some people DO end up exporting it. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.12.10 06:51:00 - [37] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth I suppose the difference between our two corps is you guys don't have the player base we do. This isn't about corp size, my reference was when ISS were in Tenerifis. Not to belittle your point, but its not 2005-2006 anymore. These days, low ends are hoovered up by battleship and capital ship manufacturing in virtually all areas of 0.0. Its a constant arms race even during peacetime. Plus, ISS was a fluke, or perhaps a moment of calm. Peaceful areas of 0.0 where you might hypothetically be able to stockpile lowends are rare to nonexistant. Additionally, the loot nerf of T1 mods being ginormous in size removes a lot of the source of those excess lowends--you can't rat for a day and melt down your takings into a few million trit anymore (unless you have a hauler following you). A dread requires over 100 million trit. A battleship: several million. A titan uses several billion units. However, trit is trit; barring alliance ops to suck up the belts it is still far and away more profitable to tap the high ends than veldspar, and people don't mine for free. So the lowends go relatively untouched. Thus far CCP's efforts have been more to shove the square peg in the round hole; they nerfed carriers-as-cargoships, nerfed mineral compression, and introduced multi-billion isk ships to handle jump logistics. This still doesn't address the innate unprofitability of mining lowends and how its still cheaper to import than mine locally; they don't make mining lowends attractive, they've just been trying to make importation unnatractive. On top of that, a lot of 0.0 space is utter crap when it comes to ore types; most of the systems are functionally identical to lowsec aside from bubbles and rats. Making the 0.0 lowends somehow more potent would go a great deal towards balancing their cost-effectiveness--it would offer incentives to mine instead of import. This would in turn starve the macrominers, which is what CCP would ideally want (or so they say; they do love those subscription $$ though). tl;dr: CCP needs to offer carrots, not sticks, to encourage nulsec lowend mining.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.12.10 13:26:00 - [38] Edited by: Nyphur on 10/12/2008 13:26:00 Originally by: Fuujin Not to belittle your point, but its not 2005-2006 anymore.. These days, low ends are hoovered up by battleship and capital ship manufacturing in virtually all areas of 0.0. Its a constant arms race even during peacetime. Plus, ISS was a fluke, or perhaps a moment of calm. Peaceful areas of 0.0 where you might hypothetically be able to stockpile lowends are rare to nonexistant. That was pretty much my point. That when there's an excess of minerals (even trit) and nobody there to capitalise on it, people do export. It's rare that those conditions actually happen now but if they do happen in the future, there's an established precident for assuming people will export. Not that this is a bad thing, just that it has to be considered for the sake of argument and not dismissed as an impossibility. The tie-in I was trying to make with the high quality ore concept was that if we want to make local mining the primary source for minerals in 0.0, increasing the yield significantly is a start but logistics has to be considered at the same time. Otherwise we could have another drone-region type fiasco on our hands. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Mra Rednu Amarr FiFi LaFey Recruitment Services LTD	Posted - 2008.12.10 14:37:00 - [39] I not really read the thread but if 0.0 wants higher quality low ends then empire want low quality high ends, give empire a chance to mine the good stuff abit lower quality and you can have veld at better quality, sounds fair to me !
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.12.10 16:50:00 - [40] Originally by: Nyphur The tie-in I was trying to make with the high quality ore concept was that if we want to make local mining the primary source for minerals in 0.0, increasing the yield significantly is a start but logistics has to be considered at the same time. Otherwise we could have another drone-region type fiasco on our hands. So what if we do? Plus, I don't know if you can compare lowends to highends on an apples-to-apples basis, even with the drone regions. Drone regions offered pre-compressed alloys that could be shipped to empire and reprocessed as-is. They offered increased amounts of high-ends that sold at thousands of isk per unit--definitely attractive. More potent ore would not be able to be shipped wholesale to empire in its native form. A rorqual would be required, and even then you could just not have compression BPOs for it. Low end minerals are bulky when you try to equal the value of high end exportation. It takes a whole Charon to equal a bustard's worth of high ends. Some exportation may happen, but it won't be NEAR that of the local macrominers' output. Drone regions and various alliance mining of ABC allows mass importation of mega and zyd, and their level of importation directly controls the price since those minerals are all but unavailable in empire. Trit, Pyer, Mex, Iso, and even nocxium can all be acquired without leaving the umbrella of Concord, so alliances and nulsec entities have far less control over their prices from a supply side of things (demand is another issue altogether). And even then...depressed lowends aren't a bad thing. It actually adds value to lowsec and nulsec. Right now you can do just fine mining plagio and veld; mining lowsec is an interesting proposition but foolish. And as mentioned, most nulsec is barely better or equal to lowsec.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.12.10 18:24:00 - [41] Edited by: Nyphur on 10/12/2008 18:24:26 Originally by: Fuujin stuff Fair points. I concede on the point of exportation being a problem. What I'd love to see happen at some point is essentially that mining becomes the primary method of mineral acquisition in EVE, not just in 0.0 but also lowsec and highsec. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:58:00 - [42] Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 10/12/2008 18:24:26 Fair points. I concede on the point of exportation being a problem. What I'd love to see happen at some point is essentially that mining becomes the primary method of mineral acquisition in EVE, not just in 0.0 but also lowsec and highsec. Agreed on that. But for that to happen for deep 0.0, CCP will either have to make importation totally impossible/unworkable (which will cause 0.0 to atrophy, not expand) or make 0.0 lowend mining more attractive/profitable (which will enable/encourage more players to leave hisec in search of better profits). Thus far, its been all of column A and none of column B. Though I may try to set up a refinery fed by an offline Corp hangar array to see if it spits out trit.... -Hey, gotta laugh somehow.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.12.12 12:31:00 - [43] All ores should be available in all space, the ore in lowsec should give at least 2x that in highsec, and the ore in 0.0 at least 4x. It should be yield based improvement so that miners can perform their function of levelling out the mineral prices to around what they are supposed to be by just mining the most valuable at the time. Also it would mean that even if external factors changed the price of minerals, lowsec would always be worth more than highsec. I can't see people mining in lowsec without at least a 2x incentive, currently it is a joke that lowsec mining has been less valuable than highsec since the drone regions were introduced (where nocxium and isogen flow in rivers because people droning can't choose their minerals so carefully). Giving people an incentive to mine in lowsec means more targets, more traders, more targets, more miners etc etc. It also means more player-driven stability. Which is of course the right way to regulate a market.
Roymundo	Posted - 2008.12.25 05:02:00 - [44] Edited by: Roymundo on 25/12/2008 05:02:46
Roymundo	Posted - 2008.12.25 05:03:00 - [45] Originally by: LaVista Vista Interesting idea. Will have to think about that. i'm new to the whole csm duties thing, but are you meant to represent the players voice or make decisions for them?
Mr LaboratoryRat	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:33:00 - [46] i think low end ores are for high sec. Low sec is a joke, unwanted space, home for pirates. So u shouldnt be able to mine in low sec in the first place. The drone regions are ment for a constant supply for all sorts of ores to keep the prices low of medium ores like nox and iso. 0.0 space is lawless space. Best way to make isk is still ratting. I can make 40m easy per hour in my own. Mining in 0.0 solo gives me the same. That includes warping out every 25min to get my bs ship en hauling the ore every 2 hours. Im only mining mercoxit because only that comes close to ratting. If i want to mine properly i need atleast a corp mate with me to kill the rats. That allows me to make 55 mil per hour (mercoxit only) but that need to be split in 2. That gives me a radical idea. Mining veldspar in 0.0 is insane anyway so lets remove the low end ores out of the systhems that have a true sec of -0.90 and higher (example -0.95) and let more high end ore spawn because people there are mining the high ends only anyway that occeur only there. In return of that, hauler spawns need to spawn more in systhems that have a npc station so people will bother to haul the 75 milion trit and dump it on the market. Next thing is to reduce the spawn frequenty of npc's in those -0.90 and higher systhems so people can make more isk each hour and it will be more profitable to mine in 0.0. This will cause that the high end ores will go down. High end ores are expensive these days in high sec. I know that there are only a few -0.90 true sec systems, ratters have plenty of other systems to rat in. Third thing that need to be adjusted is the yield of the high en ores. It's too low, i can still make more isk per hour by ratting (exept mining mercoxit). Why do i mine if i can shoot some easy rats? there is only one answere possible that is called ISK. If i can make 60m or 70mil per hour mining i go mine instead of ratting. 60m /70m per hour should be the rate that u should be earning by mining in the best mining systems there are. In the end it turns around 2 things in 0.0 Fun (pew pew) and the way to support it. At this moment ratting is more rewardfull then mining. But ratting doesnt fund the eve economy .
shoot me House Harkonnen	Posted - 2008.12.29 21:05:00 - [47] I don't see what the problem is. If the price of low end minerals in 0.0 makes it unprofitable to mine then there cant be a supply shortage. I don't think CCP should introduce a super concentrated form of veld just because some people in 0.0 cant be bothered to mine what's there already.
Earthican Minmatar DARKFELL EXCURSIONS	Posted - 2009.01.01 21:06:00 - [48] If it lowers trit prices I support it 111%
steejans nix Amarr 0beron Construct Shadow Empire.	Posted - 2009.01.04 17:40:00 - [49] Originally by: shoot me I don't see what the problem is. If the price of low end minerals in 0.0 makes it unprofitable to mine then there cant be a supply shortage. I don't think CCP should introduce a super concentrated form of veld just because some people in 0.0 cant be bothered to mine what's there already. This
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.01.08 20:23:00 - [50] Originally by: shoot me I don't see what the problem is. If the price of low end minerals in 0.0 makes it unprofitable to mine then there cant be a supply shortage. I don't think CCP should introduce a super concentrated form of veld just because some people in 0.0 cant be bothered to mine what's there already. The problem is that the amount of veld/trit in nulsec is insufficient for heavy industry unless you mine out every system in a large radius. Importation is a must for modern alliances to maintain their capital and battleship fleets. Increasing the potency/availability of lowends in nulsec would not only add value to the currently crap areas where you currently don't get any better then hed/hemo, but would also make it economically feasible to mine locally without requiring trit to spike to 6 isk/unit--trit is already WAY out of balance with the other minerals. Its not a simple market issue. Its a nulsec/lowsec/empire value issue coupled with a volume problem.
shoot me House Harkonnen	Posted - 2009.01.09 17:03:00 - [51] I cannot accept the argument that there is not sufficient minerals available in 0.0. Almost every 0.0 system is full of roids the size of moons because no-one mines it. If anything hi-sec should get the new ore as there is nothing left in the belts! I wonder if its not the case that people prefer to sell GTC for isk to fund cap ships than get involved in the gathering of resources. Do any real industrial mining corps exist in 0.0 and low sec these days? What ever happened to fighting for resources?
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.01.09 20:27:00 - [52] Edited by: Fuujin on 09/01/2009 20:29:21 Is there enough veld out there to support a battleship program? sure. Do you know how much trit goes into a single dread though? You have to strip mine entire systems to support a capital construction program. Now add in battleship rats and roaming HAC gangs. Lots of risk there; you'll need a decent sized gang to make sure you aren't surprised and destroyed and have your hours wasted. For those EXACT SAME resources, you can sit ALONE in 0.5+ and mine afk in relative safety. Why on earth (or New Eden) would you even consider moving heavy industry out to deep 0.0? See whats broken there? The people who do choose to reach out and live in the "end game" areas--ostensibly the richest in the game--can't be self sufficient. You can get megacyte and zydrine easy (in some areas), sure. But you need hundreds of millions of units of tritanium on a very regular basis. The only economical and practical way to gather this is to do so in Empire space. The risk/reward on gathering the requisite amounts of veldspar is just too ludicrously tipped to the risk end (not to mention the mind-numbing tedium). I'm not saying to make it easy to collect lowends in nulsec. I'm just saying to make it easier.
Dastycakes THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:16:00 - [53] move to dronelands and rat plush, tons of trit in it. Hit me up ingame if you want to invest some isk and make alot of profit, hundreds of satisfied customers to date. I role play Ewok

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