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Cheopis Amarr One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.04 13:55:00 - [1] If you see this and you choose to reply, then I thank you in advance. As Lead Game Designer, I believe the Market Discussions residents, new and old, could really use your input on a current series of discussions. I will try to make this neither too short, nor too long, and I will avoid using descriptions including the words piranha, Frankenstein, and 13-year-old-with-a-lawnmower. If you review the recent market discussions threads you will see there has been something of a civil war going on about just what the MD forum is, what it should be, how it should serve the forums, and whether it is appropriate to split the MD forum into a general market info forum and a high finance forum. I would like to hear your input. I am absolutely certain others wish to hear it as well. Do you believe that the impact of the out-of-game high stakes financial instruments market on the ingame experience of individual players and the player community as a whole warrants some special consideration in the forums, at least until such a time as CCP is able to implement a robust ingame high stakes financial market? I could go into a huge Wall of Text here arguing for my preferred side of this argument, of course. I could also make some sort of effort to put forth arguments for both sides, but I prefer to ask you to read through the "petition for an advanced market forum" thread and see both sides of the argument. I am quite firmly on one side, and cannot give enough credence to the arguments of the other side of the argument to be anything other than... umm, very biased. Thank You for your time.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.12.04 13:57:00 - [2] First in yet another useless thread by someone proving to have no clue.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:00:00 - [3] Spam.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:06:00 - [4] Originally by: YouGotRipped Spam. I know I've reported it as such. To the OP: You know over the past weeks or so I started developing some respect for you. That has been totally blown by this illogical campaign of yours. You lost. You were defeated before you even tried and that was apparent after the first page of responses. Making thread after thread after thread about it is just juvenile and petulant. Furthermore, I doubt you (or this issue) rate an official response from a developer. It might come, they are not quite sane imho, but don't fool yourself. Threads with the title "Open Letter to Dev" is as idiotic a way to open dialogue as has existed in the entirety of eve. In conclusion, in case you were wondering why you may have lost respect that you worked so hard gaining... read all of the above.
Cheopis Amarr One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:09:00 - [5] Edited by: Cheopis on 04/12/2008 14:10:31 Shar Tegral, and YouGotRipped. While you are welcome to comment, of course, I have learned to expect a little better of both of you, even when I do not agree with you. Even when you are wrong (you still owe me 20 mill Shar ) It is quite obvious that we cannot resolve this particular issue internally, and CCP Mitnal has indicated that things impacting the game itself are things he is not willing to comment on, so it's time to try to go outside the box, IMHO.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:19:00 - [6] First, 20m sent though I haven't checked. Second, one of the things I learned whilst in the military is that there is a reason for the "chain of command". Most importantly it is to avoid chaos and confusion as well as to help people get the orders, or answers, they need. Sometimes one must go outside the chain, thus the reason for open door policies, however until you have exercised the proper channels till the point of extremism is reached... you are just making a drama bomb. One which will bring very little in the way of positive results. (the 20m not withstanding).
Cheopis Amarr One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:23:00 - [7] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: YouGotRipped Spam. I know I've reported it as such. To the OP: You know over the past weeks or so I started developing some respect for you. That has been totally blown by this illogical campaign of yours. You lost. You were defeated before you even tried and that was apparent after the first page of responses. Making thread after thread after thread about it is just juvenile and petulant. Furthermore, I doubt you (or this issue) rate an official response from a developer. It might come, they are not quite sane imho, but don't fool yourself. Threads with the title "Open Letter to Dev" is as idiotic a way to open dialogue as has existed in the entirety of eve. In conclusion, in case you were wondering why you may have lost respect that you worked so hard gaining... read all of the above. If I have lost your respect for me, that does hurt to some degree. Everyone likes being respected. However in no way was I "working hard" to be respected. I was simply being me. If I have to lose your respect for me in order to keep my own self-respect healthy, then it's a sacrifice I am confortable making. I don't give up when I think I am right. Should this thread be closed, I suppose I will have to do some googling to find out where to send snailmail to.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:29:00 - [8] Cheopis, Its time to move on. If you want to help, start to educate the new people around here. Thats what I have tried (see new sticky). I have noticed in the last month a lot of new faces, and plenty of these people have had some good things to say. If you are upset with noobs doing random posts, don't reply. If you ignore them they will give up. Or if you need to reply point them to the stickies. MD will be fine, the new people will add value with new ideas. Move on. I personally think you are not doing yourself any favours with this. Explain how new customers will want to invest in any of your new ventures from now on. You are starting to come off as a whiner. Embrace the change!
Damien Jax Chaos Faction	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:34:00 - [9] Seriously. Are there that many new posts here every day that you can't keep up? So what if there are two discussions going on, filter out the ones you don't want to look at. I have a feeling a finance only forum will be about as dull as can be seeing the lack of posts concerning IPO's, bonds and whatever else that my go into that category.
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:44:00 - [10] Cheopsis I see what you are trying to do but you are adding to the spam by starting new threads about it every day. I suggest accepting Mitnals decision and the current workaround in place designed by Cosmo (new sticky)
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:59:00 - [11] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=channel&channelID=3523 that's where you post ideas no need to send a letter to anyone although if you must I'm sure you'd find it on the "contact us" page that so many companies seem to have.
Cheopis Amarr One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:02:00 - [12] Originally by: cosmoray Cheopis, Its time to move on. If you want to help, start to educate the new people around here. Thats what I have tried (see new sticky). I have noticed in the last month a lot of new faces, and plenty of these people have had some good things to say. If you are upset with noobs doing random posts, don't reply. If you ignore them they will give up. Or if you need to reply point them to the stickies. MD will be fine, the new people will add value with new ideas. Move on. I personally think you are not doing yourself any favours with this. Explain how new customers will want to invest in any of your new ventures from now on. You are starting to come off as a whiner. Embrace the change! Since this looks as if it might devolve into more argument, let me be clear: 1) You will find if you look that I also assist the new people here. I will also continue to do so, regardless of what happens. 2) I fully support the existence of a channel devoted to general market discussions and market questions. I fully oppose having it integrated with the high stakes financials market. 3)I have not yet asked for investment on my own behalf, though when I first started posting here, I did explore that possibility. After recently beginning to increase my understanding of larger scale markets in EVE, I never will have any need for investments for personal projects. I work with One Stop Mining Shop because it pleases me to do so, and I fill a useful role within the organization. I am not indespensible to that organization, and should my presence within it become detrimental to the Shop and I am asked to leave, I will leave the Shop without hard feelings, and likely continue working with them anyway, if they wish, because I like them. I do not have a driving urge to make isk for isks sake, and can already easily afford anything I have a desire and use for within a reasonably short time. As mentioned above, we cannot resolve this internally. I think it's time to go outside the box and try to get someone involved who does have a responsibility to the game itself, rather than just the forums.

CCP Hammer	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:06:00 - [13] Managing forums is really up to the community team so I would leave it to them to decide if another section needs to be created. You did ask for my opinion though so I will give it to you. Based on a cursory glance at the front page of this forum it would seem that it doesn't even get enough posts to fill the front page. Other forum topics fill a few pages with threads a day. So if I was the community team and I was trying to figure out which topics need to be broken into new forums the market discussions forums wouldn't be at the top of my list. My rhetorical questions to you would be: are people really having a lot trouble following the dozen new threads a day or are people getting lost trying to find a place to discuss market issues (be they in-game or player created out-of-game)?

YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Cheopis Shar Tegral, and YouGotRipped. While you are welcome to comment, of course, I have learned to expect a little better of both of you [...] Perhaps the community would like to guess where someone with such a big mouth spent his time since char creation in 2005.03.07 05:26:00 Total posts 383 Posts in the last month or so - more than 300. Quite a sudden burst of activity don't you think? hahah Black Sun Empire

CCP Navigator C C P	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:16:00 - [15] Hammer is absolutely correct. Forum particpation in Market Discussions is light to moderate so adding additional forums at this time would be unnecessary. I would also add that you have an opportunity to educate and guide newer players on the ins and outs of the EVE Market while still holding your advanced market discussions within this forum. Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Games, Email / Netfang

cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:23:00 - [16] Edited by: cosmoray on 04/12/2008 15:24:48 Good, 3 CCP guys have spoken (Mitnal in the other thread). Most of the regulars have spoken. The decision is made, can we please all move on Can we please lock these threads now!
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:35:00 - [17] This is more devs in one thread in these forums since ...(insert event...) I hope some of the industrial minded of you devs occasionally have a read through here. Do you know what an EBANK is?
Cheopis Amarr One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:39:00 - [18] Originally by: CCP Hammer Managing forums is really up to the community team so I would leave it to them to decide if another section needs to be created. You did ask for my opinion though so I will give it to you. Based on a cursory glance at the front page of this forum it would seem that it doesn't even get enough posts to fill the front page. Other forum topics fill a few pages with threads a day. So if I was the community team and I was trying to figure out which topics need to be broken into new forums the market discussions forums wouldn't be at the top of my list. My rhetorical questions to you would be: are people really having a lot trouble following the dozen new threads a day or are people getting lost trying to find a place to discuss market issues (be they in-game or player created out-of-game)? Thank you very much for your time Based solely on forum activity, it was appropriate for the forum to be moved and given new life. However, the MD forum is not just a place to talk about how the eve markets works, it's a place where people make a lot of significant ingame decisions, and actually play the game in ways that cannot be duplicated ingame. In essence, the high finance component of this forum is an extension of the game itself. Just as the sales of characters and GTCs are conducted in their own forums because they don't quite fit anywhere else, there needs to be a place where the real ingame needs of the high finance community can be met. The forums used to, and hopefully will again provide a quiet place where the high stakes players can play their game of EVE. With the existence of a general economics discussion channel, young players with an interest or a need can be funneled that way. The general deadness of the old MD channel will be mitigated to some degree by the existence of a general economics channel. Will it ever be a huge volume forum? Probably not. Will it offer benefits to the ingame economy? Definitely so. With all due respect, there just isn't an appropriate place in the EVE game itself for public high finance. Sure, there is plenty of private high finance going on ingame, but it's nearly impossible to engage in a meaningful IPO or bond offering ingame, and it becoming more and more difficult as time goes on to do so in MD's current location. Any large influx of players due to a boxed game release will make it even more difficult and frustrating. There are already several high finance players who now avoid this place, and as it becomes more populated, the population of the high finance crowd will likely continue to scatter, weakening the potential of the EVE high stakes financials markets. This is of course an opinion - I have no way to "prove" it.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:45:00 - [19] I agree with everything the CCP folks have said so far. I maintain that things are fine as they are right now. EBANK Staff \| www.eve-bank.net
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:45:00 - [20] Originally by: Cheopis Just as the sales of characters and GTCs are conducted in their own forums because they don't quite fit anywhere else, there needs to be a place where the real ingame needs of the high finance community can be met. Didn't GTC and Char sales used to be all in sales forum until it cluttered up so much that they finally got their own forum? We don't get that much new threads everyday. 10% for Returning Customers
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:52:00 - [21] MD on a good day moves about 1 Page, flick to page 2 your into yesterday and 3-4 pages spans a week. We need more people to post here, we need new ipo/bonds, we need new investors as all these thing improve the health of the markets. Splitting an already tiny player base is just stupid and blind sighted IMHO. So what if we get the occasional noob post, you have three options:- 1) Counter Troll - used extensively by MD regulars short and sweet and gets the job done. 2) Offer help - Foolish, people asking simple questions and doing no research will carry on that path no matter how much you help so help your self and dont waste your time. 3) Counter intellegence - Provide them with hints and tips that- a) help you make money by exploiting their ignorance. eg If you need lots of zyd in Jita - Tell them there is a good market collecting zyd from motsu and taking it to Jita, small gains so not worth it for us. They might like the few millon they gain b) Help you by sending them headfirst into a competitors market. Have fun and take what you can.
Cheopis Amarr One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:59:00 - [22] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 04/12/2008 15:16:30 Originally by: Cheopis Shar Tegral, and YouGotRipped. While you are welcome to comment, of course, I have learned to expect a little better of both of you [...] Perhaps the community would like to guess where someone with such a big mouth spent his time since char creation in 23.08.2004 Total posts 383 Posts in the last month or so - more than 300. Quite a sudden burst of activity don't you think? hahah This might, perhaps, have something to do with the fact that: A) I now have a third shift job where I do about 4-6 hours worth of work in an 8 hour shift. B) I have multiple accounts, and try to post appropriately to the activities of each main character. C) I have started getting into the EVE economic market far more extensively, which pretty much requires posting to the forums because it's not well supported ingame. Amazing how C ties into this argument, eh?
CornerStoner	Posted - 2008.12.04 16:13:00 - [23] 1. You have presented your opinion on this topic/issue in many threads. 2. It has been debated to a level beyond it's merit. 3. 3 Devs have taken the time to address it and explain in plain english their SOP for the forums and why things are the way they are. 4. You have decided to ignore the above 3 points and continue. TBH to continue with this would be ridiculous, obsessive and against the forum rules you claim to respect. Please...request this thread be locked and save yourself any further embarassment.
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.04 16:39:00 - [24] Edited by: Ricdic on 04/12/2008 16:43:01 I kinda have to agree with Corner. It's time to let it go and accept that things won't be changing. Focus your efforts on something more productive and fruitful like nipples.
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2008.12.04 16:45:00 - [25] I think a lot of peoples dislike for this forum of late is because of the Observed standard. I know that's why I can hardly tolerate reading this forum now. As much as logical conclusion the devs have started about forum activity that is the exact reason why a good number of people liked this forum. I would say a good number of regulars like to know "EVERYTHING" until the move the data being thrown into this forum was quality data. Data we wanted to know about, and use etc. Consider it like a water channel... For the longest time the Regular Market Discussion forum users where drinking fresh maintain steam. Then Big Brother came along and said we want your fresh water here, and diverted the fresh clean water to the big nasty undrinkable toxic waste run off from the a big City. The regular fresh water drinkers are ****ed off Big Brother took away the quality and believe the quantity, although crap quantity, will compensate. Also don't be mistaken by people who thing "We need more IPOs, more people means more IPOs" Wrong.. Just wrong. more people doesn't mean more IPOs if anything it means less per capita. Making it harder to invest. You can't fault anyone for wanting to keep all the fresh profitable water to themselves. Amarr for Life
Damien Jax Chaos Faction	Posted - 2008.12.04 16:47:00 - [26] Edited by: Damien Jax on 04/12/2008 16:46:59 Originally by: Ricdic Edited by: Ricdic on 04/12/2008 16:43:01 I kinda have to agree with Corner. It's time to let it go and accept that things won't be changing. Focus your efforts on something more productive and fruitful like nipples. I move for the creation of a forum devoted to fruit-topped pancakes, and of course, nipples.
lacal	Posted - 2008.12.04 16:48:00 - [27] Yeah please put this to bed - I generally only look at the missions forum and the market forum. Missions forum has only just recovered from all the missile whines, please let this forum get back to normal sooner rather than later!
Redbad Minmatar Mean Corp Mean Coalition	Posted - 2008.12.04 17:04:00 - [28] This whining is all to common to those who know "change" "First, when implementing change, we must assume that even the most irrational resistance is not seen as irrational by the person who is resisting. You, I, everyoneùwe react to the world the way we perceive itùbased upon our own experience. And the way we reactùthe way we behaveùmakes sense from our viewpoint. To us, our behavior is perfectly logical no matter how strange it might seem to someone else. What does this mean for managing change? Well, we think it means that in planning change and managing the resistance to change, we must try to see the proposed change from the viewpoint of the people we are asking to change. A second principle of human behavior that we feel is important is that people react emotionally to change. And their feelings or emotions may be more compelling than their intellect. Also, feelings and emotions change slowly. If we must install the technology where there is considerable opposition, then we can expect that it will take some time for the opposition to subside. People who are emotionally opposed to a change are not going to change their feelings because we tell them to. Preaching is not the answer. They will embrace the change only when they see advantages for themselves in doing so. Thus, any change must include heavy doses of communicationùand we mean two-way communication." TLDR: quit whining, let it grow on you.
Rho'varo Minmatar Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.12.04 17:06:00 - [29] Originally by: CornerStoner To continue with this would be ridiculous, obsessive and against the forum rules you claim to respect. A good summary, CornerStoner. The topic was worth giving some attention and discussing, but now it's time to move on. Maybe, if things change substantially, in six months or a year it will be worth revisiting this topic, but for right now I think we've reached the point of "flogging a dead horse".
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.12.04 17:11:00 - [30] Originally by: Damien Jax I move for the creation of a forum devoted to fruit-topped pancakes, and of course, nipples. I tried fruit topping, but honestly nothing quite has the healthy margin like hot delicious maple syrup

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