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[Issue] Fix "bumping" ships to keep them from warping

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Gorn Sotrizo	Posted - 2008.12.06 01:08:00 - [1] Edited by: Gorn Sotrizo on 06/12/2008 01:16:42 Edited by: Gorn Sotrizo on 06/12/2008 01:16:27 I'm fine with pirates. I'm fine with scrammers. I'm fine with people attacking trade convoys moving through low sec. What I have a problem with is ships don't need to rely on warp scramblers to stop fleeing vessels if they just have a single fast ship in their fleet. There's an entire class of ships (with costs upwards of 60 million) designed to evade gate camps, but what good is an Occator with +8 warp strength when you don't need scrammers to stop people, you just bump into them with a frigate a few times? I think this seriously needs to be addressed. Like I said, I'm fine with gate camping, but you should at least have to work for it, and bumping like that completely negates the purpose of Transport class ships and turns warp core stabilizers into a worthless defense. One possibly solution I thought of was if a ship collides with yours, it pushes you to the side but doesn't rotate your ship. If you want to trap somebody, you should HAVE to use warp core destabilizers or warp scramblers. [edited to fix typos]
galphi Unitary Senate Unitary Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.06 03:59:00 - [2] I've noticed that with the DST's, doesn't matter that they have warp core stabs built in, they take so long to align they're easy to bump. I guess the easy way to fix bumping would be to have the ship trying to do the bumping to bounce off, and the target ship be unaffected. I'd prefer to see collisions and damage involved to the bumping ship but I read someplace that the engine isn't designed for that sort of thing.
Terra Mikael Private Nuisance	Posted - 2008.12.06 04:56:00 - [3] Edited by: Terra Mikael on 06/12/2008 04:56:43 I stand to disagree with you. Shoving somebody is a legitimate way of forcing someone to stay in their place since the beginning of time. Something about equal and opposite reactions. I mean, if somebody shoves you from the front, why would you fly sideways? Besides, you're flying a ship that says in its description that its one of the slowest ships in eve - why don't you use the other, faster, cloaky one? It seems much more suited to what you're doing, anyway. ________________________________ Originally by: Korovyov You WIN! And by win, I mean suck horse manure.
Gorn Sotrizo	Posted - 2008.12.06 07:06:00 - [4] Edited by: Gorn Sotrizo on 06/12/2008 07:08:17 In that case, what's the purpose of deep space transports? What's the purpose of warp stabilizers in general, if they don't work (at least work insofar as they're supposed to)? I can accept the idea of ramming and damage. If some guy in a frigate plans on ramming my transport, we should both be damaged. And as far as being pushed sideways, what I meant was the ship moves but doesn't rotate. That way its jump isn't misaligned. As far as the ship flying sideways, that's what I meant. You move directly away from where they would have impacted you, but at the very least make shoving like that require something a little more advanced than "right click - approach," and them move over 150m/s. However, with the colliding, there's an entire class of ship that's completely worthless except as a money hole. At least make it so your ship can't be misaligned when you engage warp, cause I understand in dogfighting with small fast ships bumping has a practical value. But it shouldn't completely supersede the need for warp destabilizers, especially when used against ships that have a bonus to warp core stability. [edit i always think of something else to add after I hit enter]
Tusko Hopkins	Posted - 2008.12.06 10:51:00 - [5] Bumping ships in order to prevent them for warping has been a valid technique for a long time. It is not very easy to do, you need skills to do it, and it has its counters: agile ships cannot be prevented from warping because they realign faster than the time needed for the bumper to make another bump. All you need to do is fit inertia stabs on your occator. Or take a more agile ship for transporting stuff. Bumping in general could be revisited but not with the purpose to make the transportation using 8x warp core stabbed occators safer. CSM representative CSM candidate for 2nd cycle Campaign website http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameb
Alekseyev Karrde Noir.	Posted - 2008.12.06 12:44:00 - [6] I highly disagree. Bumping ships, especially at gates where you cant be sure of where the person will materialize at, is extremly difficult to accomplish. Keeping them bumped after the intial one is also not the easiest thing in the world esp if it's not a big ship. Warp Core Stabs shouldnt be the end-all way to evade camps. --- Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.12.06 13:08:00 - [7] Equal and opposite reactions are fair enough, but that only applies to the energy involved. A frigate ramming a huge transport should not be able to move it as much as it does, and it would move it on a vector from the original frigate's trajectory - i.e. it would move to the side, it would not rotate. This is entirely down to game mechanics, and has nothing to do with real-life. Yes it's very difficult to do, and it's even harder to implement properly (hitting the rear of the ship should rotate it around it's center of gravity), but the current way of doing it is completely wrong, as oppose to just slightly wrong. -- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work.
JafoPBCFR One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.06 16:19:00 - [8] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Equal and opposite reactions are fair enough, but that only applies to the energy involved. A frigate ramming a huge transport should not be able to move it as much as it does, and it would move it on a vector from the original frigate's trajectory - i.e. it would move to the side, it would not rotate. This is entirely down to game mechanics, and has nothing to do with real-life. Yes it's very difficult to do, and it's even harder to implement properly (hitting the rear of the ship should rotate it around it's center of gravity), but the current way of doing it is completely wrong, as oppose to just slightly wrong. But in space you could move a freighter with a shuttle. Question is Warp is a alternate State isnt it? Gaining Speed to warp is kinda pointless as A state of warp is a bubble of space time. In which the warpcore crates a bubble. Which is my understanding of it. prob Wrong.
Drake Draconis Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.06 16:27:00 - [9] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 06/12/2008 16:27:56 I've always had an issue with bumping since I played the game for the first time. There is absolutely no purpose for it.... if you could physically cause damage to the ship who bumped you and like wise the guy who gets bumped... then I'd be ok with it. But all it is... is some metaphysical nudge that can be triggered by just being within 5 to 10,000 meters. And thats just stupid... dare say... abuse of the nature of collisions in game. Sorry guys.... either bumping gets more realistic... or it gets yanked. Course I'm not stupid enough to think this will be changed immedately.. But I will voice my opinion on the matter. You want to know what bumping should be? Go play Homeworld Cataclysm. Ramming Frigate FTW. /signed
Gorn Sotrizo	Posted - 2008.12.06 17:56:00 - [10] Edited by: Gorn Sotrizo on 06/12/2008 17:59:02 Originally by: Tusko Hopkins Bumping ships in order to prevent them for warping has been a valid technique for a long time. It is not very easy to do, you need skills to do it, and it has its counters: agile ships cannot be prevented from warping because they realign faster than the time needed for the bumper to make another bump. All you need to do is fit inertia stabs on your occator. Or take a more agile ship for transporting stuff. Bumping in general could be revisited but not with the purpose to make the transportation using 8x warp core stabbed occators safer. Ok, I can see your argument that at all times just more warp stabs shouldn't be safer. But on that same note, the Occator is intended for safe transport. Looking at my build (level 4 in both of the skills that affect the occator and can make it warp faster), even having only +4 to warp strength (after 2 skills) and having 4 intertial stabilizer IIs, the reduction in jump time is only about 3 to 4 seconds (meaning the Occator is still a joke). I can understand the idea that 1 method of doing something shouldn't always be perfect, but on the other hand, as it stands now deep space transports are just a liability because of that tradeoff of more stabs for a very long alignment time. I think the standard on an occator is 25 seconds or thereabouts (unskilled and without bonuses).
eagleeye d4l Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.06 18:15:00 - [11] No ship is supposed to be immune, just because you have a pimped out hauler doesnt mean that youll never lose it. Bumping has always been a valid strategy and like many other people have said in this thread a very difficult thing to do properly. Eve is Eve. RL is RL. As much as some people like to think otherwise. They aren't supposed to be exactly the same. If you dont want to lose ships then i suggest you dont go into lowsec or 0.0.
Gorn Sotrizo	Posted - 2008.12.06 19:09:00 - [12] Originally by: eagleeye d4l No ship is supposed to be immune, just because you have a pimped out hauler doesnt mean that youll never lose it. Bumping has always been a valid strategy and like many other people have said in this thread a very difficult thing to do properly. Eve is Eve. RL is RL. As much as some people like to think otherwise. They aren't supposed to be exactly the same. If you dont want to lose ships then i suggest you dont go into lowsec or 0.0. I'm not suggesting the ships be immune. Nowhere in my post have I suggested they make Occator's immune to ECMs. What I'm suggesting is that a ship DESIGNED TO JUMP THROUGH GATE CAMPS not be completely rendered obsolete due to ONE GUY IN A FRIGATE WITH A MWD. Nothing is impossible to overcome. But it shouldn't be that easy. And yes, I've gate camped using ramming as a tactic. If it's difficult for you to do, you're not that good a pilot. I've never had any issues using it whatsoever. However, that doesn't mean I think it's either fair or not exploitative.
galphi Gallente Unitary Senate Unitary Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.07 07:28:00 - [13] Shoving other ships around is sound physics, and I'm perfectly fine with that. But so is taking damage from ramming - Frigate hits a dreadnought at 5km/sec it should take substantial damage.
I SoStoned	Posted - 2008.12.07 07:52:00 - [14] As a bumper pilot I can understand your frustration. My Stiletto really shouldn't be able to set your Occator into a flat spin simply because of the masses involved (and what's so difficult about doing a mass-v-mass calculation to determine who gets bumped?) Sure, a Stiletto can ram you, but it's trying to ram it's 5 kilotons against your 5 megatons and impart enough force with it's mass to not just nudge slightly but send you spinning... all without doing a single point of shield damage. I've always just called it 'collision avoidance' as an RP mechanic... both ships try to move away at the moment of impact to prevent damage. Thus, you're bumped. It's a lame mechanic, but it's in use by PvP'ers everywhere. Use smaller, more nimble ships like the coaky one suggested above, or move with a fleet (DSTs like the Impel make excellent bait boats if your RR ships arrive quickly.)
Lady Katrana Wild Jokers	Posted - 2008.12.08 19:07:00 - [15] ok, but only if you remove warp core stabs from the game.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.08 19:38:00 - [16] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 08/12/2008 19:39:06 Originally by: Lady Katrana ok, but only if you remove warp core stabs from the game. Your not in Crime and Punishment.... stop spamming.
Gorn Sotrizo	Posted - 2008.12.10 09:51:00 - [17] It's not like there aren't a dozen ways to get past warp core stabs, from HICs to simply overwhelming them. But abuse of a bad physics engine shouldn't be one of them. I'm all for letting some guy ram his ultra-expensive well fitted dart-shaped interceptor into my cargo hauler full of metal. But the result should be about what you'd expect. I've always been of the opinion that collisions in sci-fi games should be one of two scenarios. There's the Privateer 2 method, where you bump together, the shipboard voice says "impact" and you drift away with nothing happening. The other is the Privateer 1 system, having a sound like metal stressing and protesting, that makes you tighten up and you can feel your genitals trying to pull themselves into your body, and your undamaged heavy tank ship is now spinning off in the distance with no shielding and severe hull damage where the guy who dinged you at full speed in a small, agile ship is left a cloud of powder. If you want bumping to be effective, it should require something that fits the word "ramming." Bumping, or nudging, or any other term meaning "barely touch" shouldn't trap a ship. It should require something that deserves the term "collision."
Arikanaiz	Posted - 2008.12.10 10:32:00 - [18] Originally by: Tusko Hopkins Bumping ships in order to prevent them for warping has been a valid technique for a long time. It is not very easy to do, you need skills to do it, and it has its counters: agile ships cannot be prevented from warping because they realign faster than the time needed for the bumper to make another bump. All you need to do is fit inertia stabs on your occator. Or take a more agile ship for transporting stuff. Bumping in general could be revisited but not with the purpose to make the transportation using 8x warp core stabbed occators safer. AMEN
Arikanaiz	Posted - 2008.12.10 10:36:00 - [19] Edited by: Arikanaiz on 10/12/2008 10:36:48 Originally by: Gorn Sotrizo It's not like there aren't a dozen ways to get past warp core stabs, from HICs to simply overwhelming them. But abuse of a bad physics engine shouldn't be one of them. I'm all for letting some guy ram his ultra-expensive well fitted dart-shaped interceptor into my cargo hauler full of metal. But the result should be about what you'd expect. I've always been of the opinion that collisions in sci-fi games should be one of two scenarios. There's the Privateer 2 method, where you bump together, the shipboard voice says "impact" and you drift away with nothing happening. The other is the Privateer 1 system, having a sound like metal stressing and protesting, that makes you tighten up and you can feel your genitals trying to pull themselves into your body, and your undamaged heavy tank ship is now spinning off in the distance with no shielding and severe hull damage where the guy who dinged you at full speed in a small, agile ship is left a cloud of powder. If you want bumping to be effective, it should require something that fits the word "ramming." Bumping, or nudging, or any other term meaning "barely touch" shouldn't trap a ship. It should require something that deserves the term "collision." Well If you want impacts then I want my missiles to be able to fly through your shields, same with projectiles and rail guns. In a sci-fi world where a shield deflects objects from colliding with your ship (missiles hitting your armor instead of your shields first) Then "bumping" is a perfectly viable option, while not dazzeling, according to the rest of the sci-fi of eve, it works :-D YAR BISCUTS FOR EVERYONE!
I SoStoned	Posted - 2008.12.10 11:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Arikanaiz Edited by: Arikanaiz on 10/12/2008 10:36:48 Originally by: Gorn Sotrizo It's not like there aren't a dozen ways to get past warp core stabs, from HICs to simply overwhelming them. But abuse of a bad physics engine shouldn't be one of them. I'm all for letting some guy ram his ultra-expensive well fitted dart-shaped interceptor into my cargo hauler full of metal. But the result should be about what you'd expect. I've always been of the opinion that collisions in sci-fi games should be one of two scenarios. There's the Privateer 2 method, where you bump together, the shipboard voice says "impact" and you drift away with nothing happening. The other is the Privateer 1 system, having a sound like metal stressing and protesting, that makes you tighten up and you can feel your genitals trying to pull themselves into your body, and your undamaged heavy tank ship is now spinning off in the distance with no shielding and severe hull damage where the guy who dinged you at full speed in a small, agile ship is left a cloud of powder. If you want bumping to be effective, it should require something that fits the word "ramming." Bumping, or nudging, or any other term meaning "barely touch" shouldn't trap a ship. It should require something that deserves the term "collision." Well If you want impacts then I want my missiles to be able to fly through your shields, same with projectiles and rail guns. In a sci-fi world where a shield deflects objects from colliding with your ship (missiles hitting your armor instead of your shields first) Then "bumping" is a perfectly viable option, while not dazzeling, according to the rest of the sci-fi of eve, it works :-D YAR BISCUTS FOR EVERYONE! Actually, Lorentz (sp?) field effects would still protect the ship from low mass objects like missiles and projectiles simply by stopping them cold, whereas rail projectiles would be shifted away from the target. But something the size of a small ship would overwhelm the power generators for that same field effect pretty quickly. With a high enough EM barrier even explosions would be shifted away from the target (or, rather, the mass within the explosion would be repulsed. Without a matter cloud shockwaves cannot move in space... i.e. no damage). Pushing 2 Lorentz fields together, at whatever velocity, causes an amplification of the incident zone. As more force is built between the two fields the oscillation lines would eventually shift the lower mass object tangentally away from the larger mass (i.e. the Interceptor should be sent spinning, not the massive industrial).
Drake Draconis Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.10 17:19:00 - [21] There's also the matter of velocity/kinetic energy. missiles/rockets are far slower than a projectile round.... Lasers are pure energy and travel at the speed of light.
William Pierce Universal Army	Posted - 2008.12.10 18:06:00 - [22] Definitely needs to be toned down. Why the heck can my frigate bump a carrier?!?
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.10 18:10:00 - [23] Originally by: eagleeye d4l If you dont want to lose ships then i suggest you dont undock. fixedthatforyou --
Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.12.10 18:13:00 - [24] nah bumping is fine and good for the game haul with something that can fit a cloak ___________________ Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
Gorn Sotrizo	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Arikanaiz Edited by: Arikanaiz on 10/12/2008 10:36:48 Originally by: Gorn Sotrizo It's not like there aren't a dozen ways to get past warp core stabs, from HICs to simply overwhelming them. But abuse of a bad physics engine shouldn't be one of them. I'm all for letting some guy ram his ultra-expensive well fitted dart-shaped interceptor into my cargo hauler full of metal. But the result should be about what you'd expect. I've always been of the opinion that collisions in sci-fi games should be one of two scenarios. There's the Privateer 2 method, where you bump together, the shipboard voice says "impact" and you drift away with nothing happening. The other is the Privateer 1 system, having a sound like metal stressing and protesting, that makes you tighten up and you can feel your genitals trying to pull themselves into your body, and your undamaged heavy tank ship is now spinning off in the distance with no shielding and severe hull damage where the guy who dinged you at full speed in a small, agile ship is left a cloud of powder. If you want bumping to be effective, it should require something that fits the word "ramming." Bumping, or nudging, or any other term meaning "barely touch" shouldn't trap a ship. It should require something that deserves the term "collision." Well If you want impacts then I want my missiles to be able to fly through your shields, same with projectiles and rail guns. In a sci-fi world where a shield deflects objects from colliding with your ship (missiles hitting your armor instead of your shields first) Then "bumping" is a perfectly viable option, while not dazzeling, according to the rest of the sci-fi of eve, it works :-D YAR BISCUTS FOR EVERYONE! But you don't see an issue with a ship colliding doing nothing, whereas a small piece of tungsten or lead does damage? Logically, how do you justify that? I mean, do you even read these posts or just come in when you percieve an attack on a pirate traiditon going "OMFG carebear must punish anybody who wants to get in my way!"!!"!?!!!" Read through MY posts if you want to attack MY stances on things. You keep trying to put words into my mouth and formulate these bizarre scenarios where I'm claiming things should be extra special for haulers. I'm not. I've never attacked HICs, interceptors (outside of bumping), piracy, or gate camping. I'm complaining about one act that has no downside to the aggressor, no defense in a ship above a certain size/speed (12 seconds is the fastest you can reasonably align a deep space transport. That's with rigs and skills and full low sets, so it can do nothing else, and that's a long time to align) and is easy and undermines an entire class of starship.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:40:00 - [26] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 10/12/2008 22:40:47 Your wasting your breath on someone who has no discernment or care for rationality. : O )
Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:55:00 - [27] One thing people are forgetting to factor in, aside from the avoidance systems, is that an object becomes more "massive" the faster it moves, its net force is a function of its acceleration x mass, just because a frigate is small doesnt mean its net force and relative mass dont increase with speed to equal that of an immobile or slow moving ship. Additionally, because of the avoidance systems, the systems would start to read a much more massive object approaching on a collision course than the original mass of the object.. being fooled by the objects mass and acceleration it compensates for a larger mass instead of that of a small mass.. so it moves out of the way much farther in avoidance due to mass discrepancies in the sensors.
Gorn Sotrizo	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:14:00 - [28] Originally by: Nnamuachs One thing people are forgetting to factor in, aside from the avoidance systems, is that an object becomes more "massive" the faster it moves, its net force is a function of its acceleration x mass, just because a frigate is small doesnt mean its net force and relative mass dont increase with speed to equal that of an immobile or slow moving ship. Additionally, because of the avoidance systems, the systems would start to read a much more massive object approaching on a collision course than the original mass of the object.. being fooled by the objects mass and acceleration it compensates for a larger mass instead of that of a small mass.. so it moves out of the way much farther in avoidance due to mass discrepancies in the sensors. If you're going to quote science, at least know what you're talking about. Ships get up to at most 10km/s. However, what your describing is a function that doesn't substantially occur until it gets to about 90% the speed of light. And with the force distinction, it's MV^2. so the velocity is doubly important. But the thing that discussions like your dismiss is the idea that there is a problem in the way things are handled.
Foulque	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:40:00 - [29] Originally by: Tusko Hopkins Bumping ships in order to prevent them for warping has been a valid technique for a long time. It is not very easy to do, you need skills to do it, and it has its counters: agile ships cannot be prevented from warping because they realign faster than the time needed for the bumper to make another bump. All you need to do is fit inertia stabs on your occator. Or take a more agile ship for transporting stuff. Bumping in general could be revisited but not with the purpose to make the transportation using 8x warp core stabbed occators safer. This ^^ Use a scout or QQ.
Nick Domani	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:38:00 - [30] Why was POS bowling declared an exploit if bumping ships is a valid tactic?

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