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Suggestion: 15 Minute PvP timer even AFTER Pilot has logged off

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LoneRider Minmatar Com-Star	Posted - 2008.12.06 12:47:00 - [1] Hi everyone, we had a happening with instant LogOff to avoid combat. We were sitting at a gate in lowsec with a small gang. A pirate Broadsword warped to the gate, jumped and the player immediately logged off. Since he has not been attacked yet, he did not have the 15 Minute PvP Logoff timer. The Gang jumped through and on the other side of the gate that guy's ship started an emergency warp - it decloaked (was still cloaked from jumping through the gate) and tried to warp away. We managed to tackle him, but still the ship disappeared 1 Minute after that guy had logged off, which was about 40 Seconds after we started firing. Since we were a SMALL gang with no BS, we did not manage to destroy the ship - it just disappeared (not warped away but instaltly vanished) with 50% hull. I recommend a changing in the System: Even when a pilot logs off, it MUST be possible to aggress him and get him a 15 min. PvP Logoff Timer. This would immediatelly solve the problem of logging off after jumping and it would be even possible to catch a big industrial ship in a belt when the pilot logs off after seing reds in local (just be there fast enough to tag him while he starts emergency warp). So PLEASE: Make it possible to get someone a 15 Minute PvP logoff timer even after he has logged off when he still is in place (within the standard 1 Minute timer)! This will have no disadvantage, because jumping in a Gatecamp without logging off will get you killed anyways, so even if the connection breaks or the client crashes, you would have died anyway. And if the connection crashes and noone attacks you, it will be as always - immediate emergency warp and disappear after 1 Minute. I see no negative point (except whining ppl who exploit the current behaviour). LoneRider
LoneRider Minmatar Com-Star	Posted - 2008.12.06 23:15:00 - [2] more than 30 views and no reply - does that mean it is nonsense, a good idea or simply not interesting enough? ^^
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2008.12.07 00:13:00 - [3] Originally by: LoneRider more than 30 views and no reply - does that mean it is nonsense, a good idea or simply not interesting enough? ^^ Probably because this is how it was set up awhile back then it was changed ------------------------------------
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.07 01:46:00 - [4] Originally by: NightF0x Originally by: LoneRider more than 30 views and no reply - does that mean it is nonsense, a good idea or simply not interesting enough? ^^ Probably because this is how it was set up awhile back then it was changed That. If you're gatecamping to be defending space, then if a single ship shows up and logs when they see you, you still prevented them from being in your space as long as you're holding the camp, didn't you? What's the problem? __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Lombax	Posted - 2008.12.07 02:21:00 - [5] Originally by: LoneRider more than 30 views and no reply - does that mean it is nonsense, a good idea or simply not interesting enough? ^^ Let's say your idea will become reality. Now imagine I'm that pirate in broadswoard again. My computer breaks down, or I temporarly loose power. Now I will loose my ship and perhaps my pod just because of that? Just because you didn't like I logged off safely the last time?? So... Yes, I personally think it's a nonsense idea :)
Terra Mikael Private Nuisance	Posted - 2008.12.07 04:26:00 - [6] I would have to agree with the above poster. There's no way to tell if some one was truly disconnected or if their computer crashed. So there's no way of fixing this without screwing honest people who have **ty connections/computers. ________________________________ Originally by:** Korovyov You WIN! And by win, I mean suck horse manure.
Epegi Givo Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.12.07 05:17:00 - [7] Originally by: Terra Mikael I would have to agree with the above poster. There's no way to tell if some one was truly disconnected or if their computer crashed. So there's no way of fixing this without screwing honest people who have **ty connections/computers. Isn't this game all about #^$^ing over the honest person? And if you have a bad enough computer to crash in a gang fight of 3v3 or less (cause in any larger numbers losing one guy to bad connection doesn't make a super-huge difference) on classic graphics then you shouldn't be playing EVE, cause that 15 bucks a month is probably taking a HUGE chunk of your salary. ------------------------------------- Originally by:** Karrade Krise Originally by: Epegi Givo This is my sig, or is it? Now the only thing I can think of are Yard Gnome Ninjas...
Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.12.07 08:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Epegi Givo Originally by: Terra Mikael I would have to agree with the above poster. There's no way to tell if some one was truly disconnected or if their computer crashed. So there's no way of fixing this without screwing honest people who have ****ty connections/computers. Isn't this game all about #^$^ing over the honest person? And if you have a bad enough computer to crash in a gang fight of 3v3 or less (cause in any larger numbers losing one guy to bad connection doesn't make a super-huge difference) on classic graphics then you shouldn't be playing EVE, cause that 15 bucks a month is probably taking a HUGE chunk of your salary. Crashing on jump through is quite common on alot of comments TBH, i've had it happen to me on ocassion, i cant imagine what happens to people with worse connections than myself.. its not about who's in local/on the gate.. its about the session change.
SDragoon	Posted - 2008.12.07 09:17:00 - [9] Edited by: SDragoon on 07/12/2008 09:18:07 While I'm pretty confident that over 95% of the people that get aggressed on a gate after logging did so on purpose, CCP decided to side on the safe side in regard to this mechanic. If that means that 95 ships get away illegitimately for every 5 that actually crashed then so be it. The main problem here however seems to be that gates are a safe spot for many ships. Even if you get aggressed on one side, as long as you jump you are free to log off and are basically guaranteed safety since your aggro timer is cleared when jumping. I think this is the main problem. I've had a few occasions myself where we engaged a target but he jump through a gate but luckily we had tackle waiting for him on the other side, unluckily he decided to log off and bigger ships are quite hard to kill in under a minute especially when half your fleet is still stuck on the otherside of the gate.
Hammering Hank Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.07 10:40:00 - [10] The system is setup so that the ship the player is piloting vanishes. If the same player has ships at a POS, those remain after the player logs. A better mechanic is that all ships, once built, remain in the game and only the player's pod vanishes. (T)Hank(s) (T)Hank(s)
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2008.12.07 15:32:00 - [11] Originally by: Hammering Hank If the same player has ships at a POS, those remain after the player logs Not true. No ship stays in space if a player logs off while piloting the ship and in a POS, not even Titans. I don't think you would really want the ships to stay in space indefinitely while you log out at a POS. That would mean that anyone that has rights to be in your POS shields can take your ship, be that corp-mates or alliance-mates. POS's are built for many reasons and one of them being a safe base to log out at. ------------------------------------
LoneRider Minmatar Com-Star	Posted - 2008.12.08 21:57:00 - [12] Originally by: Lombax Originally by: LoneRider more than 30 views and no reply - does that mean it is nonsense, a good idea or simply not interesting enough? ^^ Let's say your idea will become reality. Now imagine I'm that pirate in broadswoard again. My computer breaks down, or I temporarly loose power. Now I will loose my ship and perhaps my pod just because of that? Just because you didn't like I logged off safely the last time?? So... Yes, I personally think it's a nonsense idea :) In that case - you are the pirate in the BroadSword, and your computer crashes or s.th. like that - when it is inside our gate camp you would have died anyway (if you didn't log off). so you win or lose nothing. So the only ones who would REALLY have a problem with this system are those sitting in a BS, having a disconnect and being killed by a frigate or s.th. smaller. THIS is the only bad point i think. But the pirate in the broadsword would have died in the camp anyway, no matter if his computer crashed or not.
Irn Bruce	Posted - 2008.12.09 01:17:00 - [13] The way I see it, the instances where the player deliberately logs off when he knows he's screwed something up and is going to lose his ship far outweigh the instances where players are unintentionally disconnected in situations where they will lose a ship they otherwise would not have. And yes, it is entirely possible for the server to know if a player deliberately logged off or was disconnected. The only bit that's impossible to tell is if he pulls the plug on his network connection. Ctrl+Q can easily be identified by the server. Give the 15 minute timer even if aggroed after logging. Perhaps even give it all the time, even if there is no aggro. After all, if no one is looking for you, it won't be a problem. And if someone's looking for you, is close to you when you disconnected, and has rights to kill you, the odds that it was an accidental disconnection must be huge.
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2008.12.09 01:47:00 - [14] Originally by: Irn Bruce The way I see it, the instances where the player deliberately logs off when he knows he's screwed something up and is going to lose his ship far outweigh the instances where players are unintentionally disconnected in situations where they will lose a ship they otherwise would not have. And yes, it is entirely possible for the server to know if a player deliberately logged off or was disconnected. The only bit that's impossible to tell is if he pulls the plug on his network connection. Ctrl+Q can easily be identified by the server. Give the 15 minute timer even if aggroed after logging. Perhaps even give it all the time, even if there is no aggro. After all, if no one is looking for you, it won't be a problem. And if someone's looking for you, is close to you when you disconnected, and has rights to kill you, the odds that it was an accidental disconnection must be huge. So you're telling me that when my internet was disconnected a couple of weeks ago during a mission that I'm SOL and should loose my ship? It wouldn't have made it 15 minutes in a mission with a room full of NPC BS's blasting it away. So no, the game already had a 15 minute timer and CCP felt it needed to change so go whine to them about not getting your precious kill mail on that one miner that keeps cloaking on you. ------------------------------------
Irn Bruce	Posted - 2008.12.09 02:09:00 - [15] Originally by: NightF0x Originally by: Irn Bruce The way I see it, the instances where the player deliberately logs off when he knows he's screwed something up and is going to lose his ship far outweigh the instances where players are unintentionally disconnected in situations where they will lose a ship they otherwise would not have. And yes, it is entirely possible for the server to know if a player deliberately logged off or was disconnected. The only bit that's impossible to tell is if he pulls the plug on his network connection. Ctrl+Q can easily be identified by the server. Give the 15 minute timer even if aggroed after logging. Perhaps even give it all the time, even if there is no aggro. After all, if no one is looking for you, it won't be a problem. And if someone's looking for you, is close to you when you disconnected, and has rights to kill you, the odds that it was an accidental disconnection must be huge. So you're telling me that when my internet was disconnected a couple of weeks ago during a mission that I'm SOL and should loose my ship? It wouldn't have made it 15 minutes in a mission with a room full of NPC BS's blasting it away. So no, the game already had a 15 minute timer and CCP felt it needed to change so go whine to them about not getting your precious kill mail on that one miner that keeps cloaking on you. Just make rat aggro and player aggro different. Problem solved. And under my proposal, if what happened to you happened, you could petition it, CCP would be able to see that you didn't deliberately log off by pressing ctrl+q, see that you were killed by rats, and they could replace your ship. That sounds like a reasonable policy to me. It's clearly an exploit when people pull this trick, nobody is arguing that it's not. Since it's impossible to prove if somebody did do it to chicken out of combat that they'd otherwise lose rather than coincidentally logging off at just that moment, it's something that has to be discouraged by game mechanics. It's the only solution. If you logged off to avoid certain death at the hands of concord it would be an exploit (though it probably wouldn't work anyway), so why is it not an exploit to do exactly the same thing where other players are involved rather than concord?
LoneRider Minmatar Com-Star	Posted - 2008.12.09 16:20:00 - [16] Thanks Irn Bruce, your answer covers everything i would have said - but i think PvP aggro timer and Rats/NPC missions aggro timer are already something different, so limiting the changes to the PvP timer would be the solution for the mission runner/NPC thing. And as you already said, the number of players abusing the system as it is now far outnumbers those who are protected by it. All NPC hunters, mission runners and ppl just flying around somewhere without being aggressed will have excately NO difference. Their ships will do emergency warp and disappear after 1 Minute just like now. So the collateral damage - if you can call it like that - would be very very very... well, almost not existing. But I also think that making a difference between ctrl+q and "pulling the plug" (which can also be achieved with software, or killing the eve process [really killing, not telling it to shut down]) would be possible, but not solve the problem. Ok, tag those using ctrl+q as "will not get any security mechanisms to save his/her ship" and those having connection problems or computer crashing "will get the security stuff", but those who WANT to exploit the system will find a way to do so. It would just stop those wannabes who will still use ctrl+q ^^ (implement a counter - 3 times ctrl+q and attacked within seconds and you get a 1-week ban ^^ - oh ok, just kidding)
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.12.09 17:17:00 - [17] As long as it is legitimate to lose your ship to lag that cannot be verified by CCP's logs it is also legitimate to lose your ship to an 'accidental' disconnect. My opinion is purely personal and not related to my alliance
LoneRider Minmatar Com-Star	Posted - 2008.12.09 21:33:00 - [18] ...also a good point - then we can call it "balancing" ^^
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.09 22:29:00 - [19] You see, the PvP flag after log off was killed some time ago by the people that waited near the POS in a cov ops to scan people that logged off, aggress the ship with some weapon incapable of killing it and then leaving to the rest of the gang to kill. At that time a ship logging off while within a POS shields would do an emergency warp, so the ship would be 1 million km from the POS and totally defenseless. This is no more the case, but still there are situations where a cov ops can find very fast someone logging off in a legitimate situation and aggro him while off line. So, as a off line pilot ship is totally defenseless and not use any module, thumb down for your idea.
LoneRider Minmatar Com-Star	Posted - 2008.12.09 23:54:00 - [20] Edited by: LoneRider on 09/12/2008 23:55:56 Edited by: LoneRider on 09/12/2008 23:55:05 oh ok thanks for that notice - i am playing since the mass beta test, but took a break for 16 months and i did not get every change - i entered PvP very late. well, let's take a comprimise. Just add the 15 Minutes BEFORE emergency warp. so someone logging off while inside a forcefield will STILL be able to log off and disappear after 1 Minute, since noone can attack him while inside the force field. But someone inside a camp who gets the counter because of being scrambled and forced to stay there and NOT do emergency warp will die. i have to say that this system is more difficult than i thought ^^ P.S: i hope my words make sense - i am drunk and not native english speaker, as everyone should have noticed ^^
Kalic Sun	Posted - 2008.12.10 01:16:00 - [21] What about combining the idea with something on the server end that checks the player's client before visibly identifying to anyone that he jumped. Ex: -player jumps -session change: server sends data which client loads in the background, but the player's client doesn't yet display anything (no reds in local to let player know to pull the plug) -server checks on client. If there's a response the player's ship shows up to others and his client shows whatever is already there. If there's no response the player's client is assumed dead and remains in the system he was in before the jump (and does the typical emergency warp there). -If the player disconnects now, a PVP timer can still be activated So if the session change (done in the background) causes a crash/connection loss, the player isn't screwed. And by not letting the player end up in the system if the connection is lost, he can't get anywhere by just pulling the plug after every jump to be safe.
Shotar Aronia Intaki Mining and Exploration.	Posted - 2008.12.10 02:38:00 - [22] The sheer number of players who use log off/quit game to avoid combat really does seem to far outweigh the few who lose connection at a critical moment. Alt Quit should not be a viable tactic.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 13:38:00 - [23] move to 0.0, use a bubble. problem solved. -------------------------- NOTR
LoneRider Minmatar Com-Star	Posted - 2008.12.10 16:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Rajere move to 0.0, use a bubble. problem solved. depends on the direction - if someone jumps through a gate, sees that the other side is bubbled (bubble around the gate like heavy interdictor) and logs off he will still get away with ctrl+q. Oh and i dont think that "go somewhere else and do thisnthat and you won't have a problem" is not a solution for the problem itself...
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.12.10 16:31:00 - [25] Originally by: Kalic Sun What about combining the idea with something on the server end that checks the player's client before visibly identifying to anyone that he jumped. Ex: -player jumps -session change: server sends data which client loads in the background, but the player's client doesn't yet display anything (no reds in local to let player know to pull the plug) -server checks on client. If there's a response the player's ship shows up to others and his client shows whatever is already there. If there's no response the player's client is assumed dead and remains in the system he was in before the jump (and does the typical emergency warp there). -If the player disconnects now, a PVP timer can still be activated So if the session change (done in the background) causes a crash/connection loss, the player isn't screwed. And by not letting the player end up in the system if the connection is lost, he can't get anywhere by just pulling the plug after every jump to be safe. This sounds as if it could solve the problem. Please CCP - that would be a nice x-mas gift My opinion is purely personal and not related to my alliance
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 17:43:00 - [26] Edited by: Rajere on 10/12/2008 17:43:42 Originally by: LoneRider Originally by: Rajere move to 0.0, use a bubble. problem solved. depends on the direction - if someone jumps through a gate, sees that the other side is bubbled (bubble around the gate like heavy interdictor) and logs off he will still get away with ctrl+q. Oh and i dont think that "go somewhere else and do thisnthat and you won't have a problem" is not a solution for the problem itself... Please feel free to try CTRL Qing inside of a bubble and let us know about your experience. I suggest you try syndicate and to bring a very very expensive ship with you for the test. y9g is preferrable for me, i'll even provide the dictor bubble. -------------------------- NOTR
LoneRider Minmatar Com-Star	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:28:00 - [27] Originally by: Rajere Edited by: Rajere on 10/12/2008 17:43:42 Originally by: LoneRider Originally by: Rajere move to 0.0, use a bubble. problem solved. depends on the direction - if someone jumps through a gate, sees that the other side is bubbled (bubble around the gate like heavy interdictor) and logs off he will still get away with ctrl+q. Oh and i dont think that "go somewhere else and do thisnthat and you won't have a problem" is not a solution for the problem itself... Please feel free to try CTRL Qing inside of a bubble and let us know about your experience. I suggest you try syndicate and to bring a very very expensive ship with you for the test. y9g is preferrable for me, i'll even provide the dictor bubble. ...but you DID read the rest about the "disappearing after 1 minute" stuff? Or do you just want to make a stupid comment? As far as i know a bubble does not automatically give you a 15 Minute PvP timer, so even when you're cought in a bubble after jumping you can ctrl+q and your ship will disappear after 1 minute. That's what this is about. Stay focused on the topic. And please no "get more firepower so 1 minute will be enough" crap. Thanks.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.13 07:20:00 - [28] Edited by: Rajere on 13/12/2008 07:23:44 Quote: ...but you DID read the rest about the "disappearing after 1 minute" stuff? Or do you just want to make a stupid comment? As far as i know a bubble does not automatically give you a 15 Minute PvP timer, so even when you're cought in a bubble after jumping you can ctrl+q and your ship will disappear after 1 minute. That's what this is about. Stay focused on the topic. And please no "get more firepower so 1 minute will be enough" crap. Thanks. You may want to learn how the game mechanics work before you post comments like this and end up looking like a nub inserting your foot in your mouth. Just saying. In case you are really really slow and still don't get it yet, logging off in a bubble does aggress you, giving you a 15minute timer. You also don't e-warp out since ya know, you're in a bubble and all. -------------------------- NOTR
LoneRider Minmatar Com-Star	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:30:00 - [29] ...or you just stay on topic - moving to 0.0 and using bubbles is NOT an option. Especially not when you're hunting somebody (you know hunting? not just sitting and waiting for someone to be trapped inside your bubble - chasing him, tackling him and taking him down). And that a bubble does automatically give you a 15 min PvP timer even when you are still cloaked from jumping is new to me, yes. Never had the chance to test this game mechanic since i'm not in 0.0 anymore. But I bet you also do not know EVERYthing in EvE. So stop barking please. I heard that it was possible to get around the 15 Minute PvP timer after logging off by logging back in with another character on the same account. This (if true - didn't check it) indicates that the PvP timer is added to the player data, not the character data, and logging in with another character set the timer to 0 for the player (and therefore to all his accounts). If so, then if the Player logs off the player data are not updated anymore. Anyway, i think it should be changed to pretend the exploiting of this "feature".
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:02:00 - [30] keep spinning it brosef, don't forget the ad hominem's, and make sure you get the last word and all. -------------------------- NOTR

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