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TornSoul
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
   |
Posted - 2008.12.16 17:53:00 -
[1]
Edited by: TornSoul on 16/12/2008 17:56:52
www.BIG-EVE.com/BMBE
Bonds are explained in post below
50B ISK bond#2 @3%
This is the second BMBE 50B ISK bond offering - Hence the "#2" moniker.
50B ISK worth of bonds are on offer.
Interest rate is fixed at 3% 4th weekly (28 days - So 3.2% for 30 days)
Minimum buy-in is 2B ISK, and then in 1B ISK increments (2B ISK, 3B ISK, 4B ISK etc)
Bond terms
Buyback & buyback timeframe
The ISK from the bonds are tied directly to a single BMBE loan.
The bonds will be bought back as the loan is paid off.
If the loantaker makes a 5B ISK downpayment on the principal, 5B ISK worth of bonds will be bought back immidiatly.
Buyback will be done in order of purchases ie. FIFO (First In First Out) - See however below about special buyback options.
BMBE loans usually run for 2-6 months.
A very few for shorter, and a very few for longer.
So expect bonds to _start_ being bought back in 1-3 months from now, and expect the _last_ bonds to be bought back in around 6 months.
Note that the above is only expectations, based on previous experience with loantakers, it is not a guaranteed timeframe.
yes, I've decided to do it like this again, as I don't like to put preassure on the loantaker with a deadline for paying back the loan. If you don't like or approve of this method, don't buy bonds
Special interest considerations
Due to the fact, as mentioned above, that bonds will be bought back the moment the loantaker makes a downpayment on the principal, buybacks can occur in the middle of a 28 day interest giving period.
If this occur, the bonds such bought back will only recieve interest for the part of the period they where issued (ie. not yet bought back)
Special buyback queue option
Some investers would prefer to have their invested ISK make interest for them for as long as possible, and would like to [HANG] on to their bonds for as long as possible.
Others would prefer a shorter engagement, and just want a quick extra ISK off their existing ISK's just laying around atm, and would rather have their ISK back [ASAP], so they can be used elsewhere.
So please mark your orders with either [HANG] or [ASAP] depending on your preferences.
If you do not mark your preference, it will default to [HANG] (to accomodate the [ASAP] bond buyers)
[HANG] bonds will be bought back after all [ASAP] bonds have been bought back.
Each category will be bought back in FIFO order (First In First Out)
Buy orders
You should not post your buy order until you have actually transfered the ISK to TornSoul.
It's optional to actually make a post here.
But you will be listed on the stock ledger regardless, except if you explicitly inform me (via EVE mail) that you wish to remain anonymous.
Stock ledger
A stock ledger will be kept below, to allow people to see how many bonds are left - and in the case they are sold out, who they then can contact in order to "make a good offer".
Needless to say, people who prefer to remain anonymous, won't be getting any "good offers" 
That's all.
Enjoy.
BIG Lottery |
TornSoul
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 17:54:00 -
[2]
reserved
BIG Lottery |
TornSoul
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 17:55:00 -
[3]
reserved
BIG Lottery |
Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:05:00 -
[4]
still having a hard time raising capital by selling the treasure shares?
might i suggest that instead of another bond, you start an auction for those shares way below NAV, and then let the bidders decied what they are worth? It would get you some capital raised pretty quick, and not ruin your margin(s) near as bad on these loans.
--
Chribba's LoveQuest 17:00hrs Dec. 20th (Prizes!!)
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TornSoul
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 18:15:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Treelox
still having a hard time raising capital by selling the treasure shares?
Yup.
The *really really* sad thing about that is, if all treasury shares sold - Div's would go up with 50% (give and take) - Due to BMBE thus being able to buy back bonds.
Would still not be a hugely impressive number (around 1.5% - or 2.25% including re-investment), but it would be _better_
Originally by: Treelox
might i suggest that instead of another bond, you start an auction for those shares way below NAV, and then let the bidders decied what they are worth? It would get you some capital raised pretty quick, and not ruin your margin(s) near as bad on these loans.
Not sure current shareholders, and especially those few who has alredy bought a few treasury shares, would appriciate that (way below NAV price) much.
BIG Lottery |
Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 19:06:00 -
[6]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Treelox
might i suggest that instead of another bond, you start an auction for those shares way below NAV, and then let the bidders decied what they are worth? It would get you some capital raised pretty quick, and not ruin your margin(s) near as bad on these loans.
Not sure current shareholders, and especially those few who has alredy bought a few treasury shares, would appriciate that (way below NAV price) much.
..but do they appreciate the lose in dividends that is caused by you issuing bonds? Sort of a balancing act there. I think if you do a dutch auction with the shares you might also be more likely to have current shareholders bidding, especially if you pre-notified them with a fake share vote.
--
Chribba's LoveQuest 17:00hrs Dec. 20th (Prizes!!)
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Packtu'sa
Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
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Posted - 2008.12.16 19:45:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Treelox
..but do they appreciate the lose in dividends that is caused by you issuing bonds? Sort of a balancing act there. I think if you do a dutch auction with the shares you might also be more likely to have current shareholders bidding, especially if you pre-notified them with a fake share vote.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that strictly issuing bonds is responsible for reduced dividends; it's poor management, if anything. Issuing a bond should not significantly affect the equity of a company, so BMBE's treasury stock in theory is unaffected by issuing a bond... of course, we know that's never really the case.
Packtu'sa [NCIC]
Founder/CEO, Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 20:08:00 -
[8]
with 100B loaned out at about 2% per month ((4.5-6.0) - 3%), that should add about 2B to divs.
If the re-investment was removed and added to payable divs that would start paying nrly 3% ROI per month. Not bad.
Nov divs = 1.3B
Loan addition = 2B
new divs = 3.3B
ROI = approx. 2.5% and rising
That would be a good turnaround. The shares might even go up. All hinges on removing re-investment which seems silly at the current NAV value.
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TornSoul
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 20:25:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Treelox
..but do they appreciate the lose in dividends that is caused by you issuing bonds?
The bonds are not costing the shareholders any ISK.
The bonds are covered by loans.
It is however a missed oppertunity, due to BMBE not having more capitial.
Which if we had (ie. treasury shares sell), would mean increased dividend.
But selling the shares below NAV would mean decreased capital to use to increase dividend.
And theres a point (havent done the math) where the share price would go so low, that the extra income made possible would be diluted by the extra shares, and thus in fact making div's go down instead of up.
BIG Lottery |
TornSoul
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 20:29:00 -
[10]
Edited by: TornSoul on 16/12/2008 20:35:24
Originally by: cosmoray
removing re-investment which seems silly at the current NAV value.
Well, apart from Ray's stock trading period, it's the only thing that have made stock prices (or rather value) go up (increased NAV).
EDIT : Aside
As I mentioned elsewhere, we definatly have a "loan bubble" atm.
Just now got a request for a 40B loan...
Didn't happen though, as the potential client had gotten his math slightly wrong (yes we do a bit of "counceling" as well )
Point being : Definatly a loan bubble atm.
BIG Lottery |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 20:40:00 -
[11]
Edited by: cosmoray on 16/12/2008 20:41:34
Have you thought about re-packaging the loans?
You could sell some of the lower value loans (<10B) to members here on MD. They could hold the collateral, and BMBE could take a cut depending on rate. Free comission if you can't raise the bond.
You have the connections, and the loan enquiries and there is still plenty of private money who might want to make more private loans, but not want to purchase BMBE at 3%.
I am sure many players would be interested (I would).
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Andres Talas
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Posted - 2008.12.16 21:14:00 -
[12]
BMBE being what it is, I'm assuming the loan that these bonds are being floated on top of is secured.
Am I correct in assuming it is secured with T2 BPOs ?
Given the rumours of technological breakthroughs leading to "T3", and the instability in the market from the recent Ferrogel Scandal, what procedures are in place for a decline in value of the collateral ?
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DragonRiderTao
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Posted - 2008.12.16 23:09:00 -
[13]
Much esteem flows now. Kenogenesis proceeds. Display your nimbus.
How many dragons can you slay? You cant slay mine. |
Martinus Crimson
PVP Freelancers inc.
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 13:10:00 -
[14]
Originally by: TornSoul
Buy orders
You should not post your buy order until you have actually transfered the ISK to TornSoul.
It's optional to actually make a post here.
Something is not completely clear to me, should i transfer "TornSoul" the money and then EVE-Mail you the order (The amount of bonds) or post the order here ?
If you can clear up the exact process for buying bonds i will buy 5 Bil worth of bonds as soon as log in.
-----------------
^^ Now i got my own exotic dancers, thnx Chribba |
TornSoul
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 18:18:00 -
[15]
Hmm yeah I can see why that could be a bit confusing.
I'll edit it :
Transfer ISK to TornSoul.
After you've done that (but definatly not before the transfer), it would be nice if you left a post about the purchase in this thread (to keep it a bit alive).
But it's optional.
I hope that's better
BIG Lottery |
Martinus Crimson
PVP Freelancers inc.
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 18:39:00 -
[16]
Yes thanks.
[HANG]
5 Billion @ 3%
-----------------
^^ Now i got my own exotic dancers, thnx Chribba |
TornSoul
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 22:19:00 -
[17]
Bond ledger updated, including payout amount and dates.
BIG Lottery |
Solene Solux
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 13:20:00 -
[18]
I might be interested. But I'd require all the ISK be back after 2 months. Is this possible?
Sum to possibly invest, 15B at 3%
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TornSoul
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 16:41:00 -
[19]
That is not a guarantee I can give, as, as explained, it's solely dependant on the loantakers ability and willingness to pay of on the principal of the loan.
If you put in a [ASAP] buy, at a _guestimate_ I'd say you'd have your ISK back in 2-3 months.
BIG Lottery |
TornSoul
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.23 23:46:00 -
[20]
Wow... This surely is selling slow...
3% might not be an incredible interest rate.
But I don't believe it's *that* bad either.
So, grab a few bonds for them x-mas stockings.
BIG Lottery |
Packtu'sa
Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
|
Posted - 2008.12.24 01:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: TornSoul
Wow... This surely is selling slow... 3% might not be an incredible interest rate. But I don't believe it's *that* bad either.
Frankly, BMBE is often referred to as a 'hostage' IPO, and that doesn't inspire great investor confidence. 3% is too low for that sort of perceived risk profile.
It's also too low for anybody who does business, because who else can get capital for as low as 3%? The likes of Ray and Shar have managed 4%, not better. I consider myself to be incredibly lucky to have access to capital at 4%, so why would I toss it into a bond earning 3%? There's no compelling reason.
Packtu'sa
Founder/CEO, Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp (2bn @ 4.5%) |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
|
Posted - 2008.12.24 02:02:00 -
[22]
How much debt are you taking on?
NAV of over 120B + 2 bonds of 50B each?
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Ambo
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.12.24 09:13:00 -
[23]
Indeed, I'm afraid your past dealings, seemingly trying to confound investors at every turn makes me hesitant.
Plus rapid expansions are always suspicious, particularly on this kind of scale. 2 50B bonds in very quick succession.
Finally, the 3% interest rate is very low. I just about accept it from ebank because they have numerous systems in place to prevent scamming, I can get at the money whenever I want and they have a history of being helpful and accomodating to thier customers.
You, on the other hand, have none of these points working for you.
--------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
TornSoul
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.29 02:28:00 -
[24]
@Packtu'sa
"'hostage' IPO"
What does that mean? I'm not familiar with the term.
Not sure I'll like the explanation, as it has some rather negative connotations.
"The likes of Ray and Shar have managed 4%"
Matter of availability as well isnt it?
Have (plural) your ISK sit in wallet doing nothing, waiting for that 4% (or better) offer to show up - or invest in 3% now. - shrug-
@cosmoray
Next report is close - It'll have the numbers.
BIG Lottery |
TornSoul
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.29 02:35:00 -
[25]
@Ambo
Uhm, not very biased are you?
Quite an attemp at character assasination, without any references to anything.
your past dealings
What's that supposed to mean excactly?
I've never stolen an ISK in my entire EVE life, nor plan to
- I've in fact handled hundreds upon hundreds of billions of other peoples ISK from since beta, and they've all gotten every single ISK back again.
Plus rapid expansions are always suspicious, particularly on this kind of scale. 2 50B bonds in very quick succession.
Again, you're insinuating I might be up to no good.
Care to back that up with something?
It's been pretty well explained what the ISK is for - Not a complicated subject really.
Quote:
Finally, the 3% interest rate is very low. I just about accept it from ebank because they have numerous systems in place to prevent scamming, I can get at the money whenever I want and they have a history of being helpful and accomodating to thier customers.
You, on the other hand, have none of these points working for you.
Wow... You sure have a problem with me/BMBE dont you.
First of, you're comparing apples to oranges (BMBE/EBANK), and then using the result of that comparison to discredit this bond offering.
What a load of bull - To be frank.
3% being low compared to EBANK : Err, you might be one of the lucky ones still with a 3% account, but newsflash, thats not available to new customers anymore. They'll have to settle with the 1.5%.
So in that light BMBE Bonds looks great. 1 point for BMBE.
"Scam prevention" :
Hmm let me see... It's about trust, for EBANK as well as for BMBE. Plain an simply.
So while not "factual" as such - I'll definatly call that one a draw.
"Get the ISK when you want" :
Well heres the apple/oranges bit.
BMBE do not have deposit accounts... so there *is* no ISK to withdraw "when you want".
The BMBE is an IPO
- And with shares, you don't get to cash them in "when you want".
I'm pretty sure that was a (deliberate) oversight on your part.
So this one doesnt even count...
"history of being helpful and accomodating to thier customers."
And the BMBE does not?
Have you ever talked to, or heard from, a BMBE customer?
They don't often post their affiliation with BMBE, just about all prefer to stay annonymous - For good reason as well.
So straight slander on your part (which ofc is the intend of your post)
I'll call that one a draw as well.
So what do we end up with (based on just *your* parameters mind you) : 3 BMBE (bond) and 2 EBANK (account)
So frankly Ambo, you can take your "have none of these points working for you" and stuff it... into an EBANK account, if you can.
Come up with some factual stuff, instead of this make-believe biased non-logic reality of yours, and we can start talking.
Others have been able to.
And merry Christmas to everyone 
BIG Lottery |
TornSoul
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.29 02:36:00 -
[26]
Just for the record : The bond offering is still open.
BIG Lottery |
Amarr Citizen 155
Tleilex Developments
Dara Cothrom
|
Posted - 2008.12.29 02:46:00 -
[27]
I don't think you'd ever come out ahead in a point game versus ebank but that's another discussion.
To everyone else, give it a rest. We all know Tornsoul isn't a scammer. We all know he won't ever scam. Just because he runs an IPO where you are held hostage and have crappy returns and can't sell your shares for their value doesn't mean its ok to insinuate he is or will turn into a scammer.
Running an IPO with no regard for your investors and essentially holding them hostage while placing yourself on a pedestal is one thing, scamming is something MUCH worse. Please guys don't confuse the two. Tornsoul is no scammer.
Quote:
Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
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TornSoul
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.29 05:58:00 -
[28]
Edited by: TornSoul on 29/12/2008 06:03:31
lol AC, you're no better than Ambo.
Biased and slanderous.
(The sarcasm of your post is almost tangible, which is actually quite a feat with a forum post)
Point game versus EBANK
Again : It's apples and oranges.
And as already illustrated, just a matter of picking the "right" points, to set up one as the "winner".
But as it's apples and oranges, it's pointless, yet you insist on that silly game as well (stating that EBANK would come out ahead)
where you are held hostage
Again this "hostage" term.
Care to elaborate what you mean by that excactly? It was actually an honest question in my previous post.
Or is it just "tabloid speak" to insinuate "bad things" (that you can't back up with facts - As any other biased slanderer)
crappy returns
I'll give you that one.
At least it's solid (non-scam).
can't sell your shares for their value
And this is unique to BMBE?
And I'm sorry for not crying my eyes out on this one : If you had shares since the beginning (which the majority has) your sharevalue (NAV) + div payouts, easily allows you to sell below NAV and still come out with a decent absolute profit.
Plenty of buyers at NAV-10%.
So go cash your profits if (plural) you're unhappy.
no regard for your investors
Excuse me?
At the top of my head I can name three instances where constructive suggestions from shareholders have been taken onboard and implemented.
The one recuring "suggestion" that I have indeed denied, is to liquidate BMBE.
Oh and btw - BMBE has 200+ shareholders, and I'd say it's less than a handfull making a fuzz on these forums (mostly about liquidating)
Equating that to "not listening to your shareholders" is not just a stretch, but outright slanderous.
I'd say I care quite a lot for the shareholders, trying my damndest to ensure they make some ISK, which among others requires not taking onboard any crack-pot suggestion put on these forums, but only those that will continue to ensure BMBE shareholders make ISK.
Tornsoul is no scammer.
At least you got that one bit right. (sarcasm aside...)
I'll add two more : I don't lie either, nor do I go around slandering other people or their business.
If I have a problem with someone, you can rest assured I'll settle it without stooping to slander and mis-information.
But each to his I guess.
And merry Christmas to everyone
BIG Lottery |
Amarr Citizen 155
Tleilex Developments
Dara Cothrom
|
Posted - 2008.12.29 06:26:00 -
[29]
I'm not in a competition with ambo.
I agree, it is apples and oranges but then again I didn't start that argument. I merely replied to it. If I were to compare you to someone it would be Fury or Ionia simply because of the "one man show".
I not exactly for you liquidating, when Ray left that would have been the best option but that time has past. There's no need to bring that back up. I'm for you offering a corp buyback @ NAV, and I'm for you doing away with the corp reinvestment and upping the dividend payments in place of that.
The no-regard for your investors comment comes mostly from the way you respond to us. You take the "i know what's best/greater than thou" tone in a lot of your postings. Maybe that's you being honest rather than leading anyone on, who knows.
As far as the scammer comments, that part was honest and straight forward. I'd never call you or your operations a scam.
I don't believe I provided any mis-information. I think some of my comments were misinterpreted but sometimes that can't be avoided.
Quote:
Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
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Frenden Dax
Dax Acquisitions
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Posted - 2008.12.29 06:27:00 -
[30]
I might as well join the crowd pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes. Lol TS, you're no better than anyone else either.
Point Game:
is as you note, stupid. But you started it by comparing the two USING a point system. To suddenly go "lol apples and oranges not possible" is quite a feat then.
Hostage:
There's no way for investors to control the direction of the IPO, determine when it ends/what it does, or even to GET THEIR MONEY BACK. Essentially you've decided that what a shareholder thinks is quite irrelevant; if you agree with something they suggest, you implement it. IF you don't, you ignore it. And if they ask for their money back... that leads me to my next point.
All Your Monies Are Belong To Us:
Yes, it's unique to BMBE, because most IPOs will offer a buyback very very close to the actual share value. The buyback might be lower if someone wants to suddenly pull their money after the first month; a reduced % in that case would serve to make investors keep their money in until the buyback % was more favorable. Given that BMBE has been going on for... god, YEARS, it's not surprising that people might think that they have some strange right to their own money after all this time. That's assuming they even play the game anymore... which leads me to my next point again.
Out of Many, Few:
It's been years since the start of BMBE. Many of the original shareholders have probably quit the game. These "handful" of shareholders you mention - how many is a handful, anyways? - might be the only remaining active shareholders. You're holding them hostage (there's that word again) by counting the inactivity of the other shareholders as a silent vote to keep BMBE active.
Closing Remarks:
You seem to have 'slander' and 'factual information' confused. If you look at the situation from the position other than that of someone in charge of BMBE, you might see things differently. I also lol'd when you said that "If I have a problem with someone, you can rest assured I'll settle it without stooping to slander and mis-information." I like this phrase because it implies that everyone who disagrees with you is either mis-informed or slandering you. And of course hypocritically at the very start of your post you called two of your critics "Biased and slanderous."
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