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[BMBE] 50B ISK bond#2 @3% (straight buy - no auction)

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TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.16 17:53:00 - [1] Edited by: TornSoul on 16/12/2008 17:56:52 www.BIG-EVE.com/BMBE Bonds are explained in post below 50B ISK bond#2 @3% This is the second BMBE 50B ISK bond offering - Hence the "#2" moniker. 50B ISK worth of bonds are on offer. Interest rate is fixed at 3% 4th weekly (28 days - So 3.2% for 30 days) Minimum buy-in is 2B ISK, and then in 1B ISK increments (2B ISK, 3B ISK, 4B ISK etc) Bond terms Buyback & buyback timeframe The ISK from the bonds are tied directly to a single BMBE loan. The bonds will be bought back as the loan is paid off. If the loantaker makes a 5B ISK downpayment on the principal, 5B ISK worth of bonds will be bought back immidiatly. Buyback will be done in order of purchases ie. FIFO (First In First Out) - See however below about special buyback options. BMBE loans usually run for 2-6 months. A very few for shorter, and a very few for longer. So expect bonds to _start_ being bought back in 1-3 months from now, and expect the _last_ bonds to be bought back in around 6 months. Note that the above is only expectations, based on previous experience with loantakers, it is not a guaranteed timeframe. yes, I've decided to do it like this again, as I don't like to put preassure on the loantaker with a deadline for paying back the loan. If you don't like or approve of this method, don't buy bonds Special interest considerations Due to the fact, as mentioned above, that bonds will be bought back the moment the loantaker makes a downpayment on the principal, buybacks can occur in the middle of a 28 day interest giving period. If this occur, the bonds such bought back will only recieve interest for the part of the period they where issued (ie. not yet bought back) Special buyback queue option Some investers would prefer to have their invested ISK make interest for them for as long as possible, and would like to [HANG] on to their bonds for as long as possible. Others would prefer a shorter engagement, and just want a quick extra ISK off their existing ISK's just laying around atm, and would rather have their ISK back [ASAP], so they can be used elsewhere. So please mark your orders with either [HANG] or [ASAP] depending on your preferences. If you do not mark your preference, it will default to [HANG] (to accomodate the [ASAP] bond buyers) [HANG] bonds will be bought back after all [ASAP] bonds have been bought back. Each category will be bought back in FIFO order (First In First Out) Buy orders You should not post your buy order until you have actually transfered the ISK to TornSoul. It's optional to actually make a post here. But you will be listed on the stock ledger regardless, except if you explicitly inform me (via EVE mail) that you wish to remain anonymous. Stock ledger A stock ledger will be kept below, to allow people to see how many bonds are left - and in the case they are sold out, who they then can contact in order to "make a good offer". Needless to say, people who prefer to remain anonymous, won't be getting any "good offers" That's all. Enjoy. BIG Lottery
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.16 17:54:00 - [2] reserved BIG Lottery
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.16 17:55:00 - [3] reserved BIG Lottery
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.12.16 18:05:00 - [4] still having a hard time raising capital by selling the treasure shares? might i suggest that instead of another bond, you start an auction for those shares way below NAV, and then let the bidders decied what they are worth? It would get you some capital raised pretty quick, and not ruin your margin(s) near as bad on these loans. -- Chribba's LoveQuest 17:00hrs Dec. 20th (Prizes!!)
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.16 18:15:00 - [5] Originally by: Treelox still having a hard time raising capital by selling the treasure shares? Yup. The really really sad thing about that is, if all treasury shares sold - Div's would go up with 50% (give and take) - Due to BMBE thus being able to buy back bonds. Would still not be a hugely impressive number (around 1.5% - or 2.25% including re-investment), but it would be _better_ Originally by: Treelox might i suggest that instead of another bond, you start an auction for those shares way below NAV, and then let the bidders decied what they are worth? It would get you some capital raised pretty quick, and not ruin your margin(s) near as bad on these loans. Not sure current shareholders, and especially those few who has alredy bought a few treasury shares, would appriciate that (way below NAV price) much. BIG Lottery
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.12.16 19:06:00 - [6] Originally by: TornSoul Originally by: Treelox might i suggest that instead of another bond, you start an auction for those shares way below NAV, and then let the bidders decied what they are worth? It would get you some capital raised pretty quick, and not ruin your margin(s) near as bad on these loans. Not sure current shareholders, and especially those few who has alredy bought a few treasury shares, would appriciate that (way below NAV price) much. ..but do they appreciate the lose in dividends that is caused by you issuing bonds? Sort of a balancing act there. I think if you do a dutch auction with the shares you might also be more likely to have current shareholders bidding, especially if you pre-notified them with a fake share vote. -- Chribba's LoveQuest 17:00hrs Dec. 20th (Prizes!!)
Packtu'sa Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp	Posted - 2008.12.16 19:45:00 - [7] Originally by: Treelox ..but do they appreciate the lose in dividends that is caused by you issuing bonds? Sort of a balancing act there. I think if you do a dutch auction with the shares you might also be more likely to have current shareholders bidding, especially if you pre-notified them with a fake share vote. I wouldn't go so far as to say that strictly issuing bonds is responsible for reduced dividends; it's poor management, if anything. Issuing a bond should not significantly affect the equity of a company, so BMBE's treasury stock in theory is unaffected by issuing a bond... of course, we know that's never really the case. Packtu'sa [NCIC] Founder/CEO, Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2008.12.16 20:08:00 - [8] with 100B loaned out at about 2% per month ((4.5-6.0) - 3%), that should add about 2B to divs. If the re-investment was removed and added to payable divs that would start paying nrly 3% ROI per month. Not bad. Nov divs = 1.3B Loan addition = 2B new divs = 3.3B ROI = approx. 2.5% and rising That would be a good turnaround. The shares might even go up. All hinges on removing re-investment which seems silly at the current NAV value.
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.16 20:25:00 - [9] Originally by: Treelox ..but do they appreciate the lose in dividends that is caused by you issuing bonds? The bonds are not costing the shareholders any ISK. The bonds are covered by loans. It is however a missed oppertunity, due to BMBE not having more capitial. Which if we had (ie. treasury shares sell), would mean increased dividend. But selling the shares below NAV would mean decreased capital to use to increase dividend. And theres a point (havent done the math) where the share price would go so low, that the extra income made possible would be diluted by the extra shares, and thus in fact making div's go down instead of up. BIG Lottery
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.16 20:29:00 - [10] Edited by: TornSoul on 16/12/2008 20:35:24 Originally by: cosmoray removing re-investment which seems silly at the current NAV value. Well, apart from Ray's stock trading period, it's the only thing that have made stock prices (or rather value) go up (increased NAV). EDIT : Aside As I mentioned elsewhere, we definatly have a "loan bubble" atm. Just now got a request for a 40B loan... Didn't happen though, as the potential client had gotten his math slightly wrong (yes we do a bit of "counceling" as well ) Point being : Definatly a loan bubble atm. BIG Lottery
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2008.12.16 20:40:00 - [11] Edited by: cosmoray on 16/12/2008 20:41:34 Have you thought about re-packaging the loans? You could sell some of the lower value loans (<10B) to members here on MD. They could hold the collateral, and BMBE could take a cut depending on rate. Free comission if you can't raise the bond. You have the connections, and the loan enquiries and there is still plenty of private money who might want to make more private loans, but not want to purchase BMBE at 3%. I am sure many players would be interested (I would).
Andres Talas	Posted - 2008.12.16 21:14:00 - [12] BMBE being what it is, I'm assuming the loan that these bonds are being floated on top of is secured. Am I correct in assuming it is secured with T2 BPOs ? Given the rumours of technological breakthroughs leading to "T3", and the instability in the market from the recent Ferrogel Scandal, what procedures are in place for a decline in value of the collateral ?
DragonRiderTao	Posted - 2008.12.16 23:09:00 - [13] Much esteem flows now. Kenogenesis proceeds. Display your nimbus. How many dragons can you slay? You cant slay mine.
Martinus Crimson PVP Freelancers inc.	Posted - 2008.12.17 13:10:00 - [14] Originally by: TornSoul Buy orders You should not post your buy order until you have actually transfered the ISK to TornSoul. It's optional to actually make a post here. Something is not completely clear to me, should i transfer "TornSoul" the money and then EVE-Mail you the order (The amount of bonds) or post the order here ? If you can clear up the exact process for buying bonds i will buy 5 Bil worth of bonds as soon as log in. ----------------- ^^ Now i got my own exotic dancers, thnx Chribba
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.17 18:18:00 - [15] Hmm yeah I can see why that could be a bit confusing. I'll edit it : Transfer ISK to TornSoul. After you've done that (but definatly not before the transfer), it would be nice if you left a post about the purchase in this thread (to keep it a bit alive). But it's optional. I hope that's better BIG Lottery
Martinus Crimson PVP Freelancers inc.	Posted - 2008.12.17 18:39:00 - [16] Yes thanks. [HANG] 5 Billion @ 3% ----------------- ^^ Now i got my own exotic dancers, thnx Chribba
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.17 22:19:00 - [17] Bond ledger updated, including payout amount and dates. BIG Lottery
Solene Solux	Posted - 2008.12.19 13:20:00 - [18] I might be interested. But I'd require all the ISK be back after 2 months. Is this possible? Sum to possibly invest, 15B at 3%
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.19 16:41:00 - [19] That is not a guarantee I can give, as, as explained, it's solely dependant on the loantakers ability and willingness to pay of on the principal of the loan. If you put in a [ASAP] buy, at a _guestimate_ I'd say you'd have your ISK back in 2-3 months. BIG Lottery
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.23 23:46:00 - [20] Wow... This surely is selling slow... 3% might not be an incredible interest rate. But I don't believe it's that bad either. So, grab a few bonds for them x-mas stockings. BIG Lottery
Packtu'sa Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp	Posted - 2008.12.24 01:15:00 - [21] Originally by: TornSoul Wow... This surely is selling slow... 3% might not be an incredible interest rate. But I don't believe it's that bad either. Frankly, BMBE is often referred to as a 'hostage' IPO, and that doesn't inspire great investor confidence. 3% is too low for that sort of perceived risk profile. It's also too low for anybody who does business, because who else can get capital for as low as 3%? The likes of Ray and Shar have managed 4%, not better. I consider myself to be incredibly lucky to have access to capital at 4%, so why would I toss it into a bond earning 3%? There's no compelling reason. Packtu'sa Founder/CEO, Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp (2bn @ 4.5%)
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2008.12.24 02:02:00 - [22] How much debt are you taking on? NAV of over 120B + 2 bonds of 50B each?
Ambo State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.12.24 09:13:00 - [23] Indeed, I'm afraid your past dealings, seemingly trying to confound investors at every turn makes me hesitant. Plus rapid expansions are always suspicious, particularly on this kind of scale. 2 50B bonds in very quick succession. Finally, the 3% interest rate is very low. I just about accept it from ebank because they have numerous systems in place to prevent scamming, I can get at the money whenever I want and they have a history of being helpful and accomodating to thier customers. You, on the other hand, have none of these points working for you. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:28:00 - [24] @Packtu'sa "'hostage' IPO" What does that mean? I'm not familiar with the term. Not sure I'll like the explanation, as it has some rather negative connotations. "The likes of Ray and Shar have managed 4%" Matter of availability as well isnt it? Have (plural) your ISK sit in wallet doing nothing, waiting for that 4% (or better) offer to show up - or invest in 3% now. - shrug- @cosmoray Next report is close - It'll have the numbers. BIG Lottery
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:35:00 - [25] @Ambo Uhm, not very biased are you? Quite an attemp at character assasination, without any references to anything. your past dealings What's that supposed to mean excactly? I've never stolen an ISK in my entire EVE life, nor plan to - I've in fact handled hundreds upon hundreds of billions of other peoples ISK from since beta, and they've all gotten every single ISK back again. Plus rapid expansions are always suspicious, particularly on this kind of scale. 2 50B bonds in very quick succession. Again, you're insinuating I might be up to no good. Care to back that up with something? It's been pretty well explained what the ISK is for - Not a complicated subject really. Quote: Finally, the 3% interest rate is very low. I just about accept it from ebank because they have numerous systems in place to prevent scamming, I can get at the money whenever I want and they have a history of being helpful and accomodating to thier customers. You, on the other hand, have none of these points working for you. Wow... You sure have a problem with me/BMBE dont you. First of, you're comparing apples to oranges (BMBE/EBANK), and then using the result of that comparison to discredit this bond offering. What a load of bull - To be frank. 3% being low compared to EBANK : Err, you might be one of the lucky ones still with a 3% account, but newsflash, thats not available to new customers anymore. They'll have to settle with the 1.5%. So in that light BMBE Bonds looks great. 1 point for BMBE. "Scam prevention" : Hmm let me see... It's about trust, for EBANK as well as for BMBE. Plain an simply. So while not "factual" as such - I'll definatly call that one a draw. "Get the ISK when you want" : Well heres the apple/oranges bit. BMBE do not have deposit accounts... so there is no ISK to withdraw "when you want". The BMBE is an IPO - And with shares, you don't get to cash them in "when you want". I'm pretty sure that was a (deliberate) oversight on your part. So this one doesnt even count... "history of being helpful and accomodating to thier customers." And the BMBE does not? Have you ever talked to, or heard from, a BMBE customer? They don't often post their affiliation with BMBE, just about all prefer to stay annonymous - For good reason as well. So straight slander on your part (which ofc is the intend of your post) I'll call that one a draw as well. So what do we end up with (based on just your parameters mind you) : 3 BMBE (bond) and 2 EBANK (account) So frankly Ambo, you can take your "have none of these points working for you" and stuff it... into an EBANK account, if you can. Come up with some factual stuff, instead of this make-believe biased non-logic reality of yours, and we can start talking. Others have been able to. And merry Christmas to everyone BIG Lottery
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:36:00 - [26] Just for the record : The bond offering is still open. BIG Lottery
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:46:00 - [27] I don't think you'd ever come out ahead in a point game versus ebank but that's another discussion. To everyone else, give it a rest. We all know Tornsoul isn't a scammer. We all know he won't ever scam. Just because he runs an IPO where you are held hostage and have crappy returns and can't sell your shares for their value doesn't mean its ok to insinuate he is or will turn into a scammer. Running an IPO with no regard for your investors and essentially holding them hostage while placing yourself on a pedestal is one thing, scamming is something MUCH worse. Please guys don't confuse the two. Tornsoul is no scammer. Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.29 05:58:00 - [28] Edited by: TornSoul on 29/12/2008 06:03:31 lol AC, you're no better than Ambo. Biased and slanderous. (The sarcasm of your post is almost tangible, which is actually quite a feat with a forum post) Point game versus EBANK Again : It's apples and oranges. And as already illustrated, just a matter of picking the "right" points, to set up one as the "winner". But as it's apples and oranges, it's pointless, yet you insist on that silly game as well (stating that EBANK would come out ahead) where you are held hostage Again this "hostage" term. Care to elaborate what you mean by that excactly? It was actually an honest question in my previous post. Or is it just "tabloid speak" to insinuate "bad things" (that you can't back up with facts - As any other biased slanderer) crappy returns I'll give you that one. At least it's solid (non-scam). can't sell your shares for their value And this is unique to BMBE? And I'm sorry for not crying my eyes out on this one : If you had shares since the beginning (which the majority has) your sharevalue (NAV) + div payouts, easily allows you to sell below NAV and still come out with a decent absolute profit. Plenty of buyers at NAV-10%. So go cash your profits if (plural) you're unhappy. no regard for your investors Excuse me? At the top of my head I can name three instances where constructive suggestions from shareholders have been taken onboard and implemented. The one recuring "suggestion" that I have indeed denied, is to liquidate BMBE. Oh and btw - BMBE has 200+ shareholders, and I'd say it's less than a handfull making a fuzz on these forums (mostly about liquidating) Equating that to "not listening to your shareholders" is not just a stretch, but outright slanderous. I'd say I care quite a lot for the shareholders, trying my damndest to ensure they make some ISK, which among others requires not taking onboard any crack-pot suggestion put on these forums, but only those that will continue to ensure BMBE shareholders make ISK. Tornsoul is no scammer. At least you got that one bit right. (sarcasm aside...) I'll add two more : I don't lie either, nor do I go around slandering other people or their business. If I have a problem with someone, you can rest assured I'll settle it without stooping to slander and mis-information. But each to his I guess. And merry Christmas to everyone BIG Lottery
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2008.12.29 06:26:00 - [29] I'm not in a competition with ambo. I agree, it is apples and oranges but then again I didn't start that argument. I merely replied to it. If I were to compare you to someone it would be Fury or Ionia simply because of the "one man show". I not exactly for you liquidating, when Ray left that would have been the best option but that time has past. There's no need to bring that back up. I'm for you offering a corp buyback @ NAV, and I'm for you doing away with the corp reinvestment and upping the dividend payments in place of that. The no-regard for your investors comment comes mostly from the way you respond to us. You take the "i know what's best/greater than thou" tone in a lot of your postings. Maybe that's you being honest rather than leading anyone on, who knows. As far as the scammer comments, that part was honest and straight forward. I'd never call you or your operations a scam. I don't believe I provided any mis-information. I think some of my comments were misinterpreted but sometimes that can't be avoided. Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2008.12.29 06:27:00 - [30] I might as well join the crowd pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes. Lol TS, you're no better than anyone else either. Point Game: is as you note, stupid. But you started it by comparing the two USING a point system. To suddenly go "lol apples and oranges not possible" is quite a feat then. Hostage: There's no way for investors to control the direction of the IPO, determine when it ends/what it does, or even to GET THEIR MONEY BACK. Essentially you've decided that what a shareholder thinks is quite irrelevant; if you agree with something they suggest, you implement it. IF you don't, you ignore it. And if they ask for their money back... that leads me to my next point. All Your Monies Are Belong To Us: Yes, it's unique to BMBE, because most IPOs will offer a buyback very very close to the actual share value. The buyback might be lower if someone wants to suddenly pull their money after the first month; a reduced % in that case would serve to make investors keep their money in until the buyback % was more favorable. Given that BMBE has been going on for... god, YEARS, it's not surprising that people might think that they have some strange right to their own money after all this time. That's assuming they even play the game anymore... which leads me to my next point again. Out of Many, Few: It's been years since the start of BMBE. Many of the original shareholders have probably quit the game. These "handful" of shareholders you mention - how many is a handful, anyways? - might be the only remaining active shareholders. You're holding them hostage (there's that word again) by counting the inactivity of the other shareholders as a silent vote to keep BMBE active. Closing Remarks: You seem to have 'slander' and 'factual information' confused. If you look at the situation from the position other than that of someone in charge of BMBE, you might see things differently. I also lol'd when you said that "If I have a problem with someone, you can rest assured I'll settle it without stooping to slander and mis-information." I like this phrase because it implies that everyone who disagrees with you is either mis-informed or slandering you. And of course hypocritically at the very start of your post you called two of your critics "Biased and slanderous."
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2008.12.29 06:48:00 - [31] Going round and round. All bonds/IPO's in Eve are just investments based on the trust of the CEO or entity. Current Risk Analysis (purely likelihood of scam) Tier 1 EBank (risk spread across multiple trusted people) Tier 2 Ray Shar BSAC BMBE Tier 3 Other At present market prices EBank as safest investment. Back to BMBE 1. BMBE bonds should be looked at separately to BMBE shares 2. BMBE first bond sold out at 3% 3. Market for second bond is SLOWER 4. BMBE may need to increase ROI or conditions of bond (maturity date, etc..) to make it more attractive to investors 5. Are you happy with 3% 6. If you are buy it, if not, don't!
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.12.29 07:02:00 - [32] Woot, EBANK wins!! People still can't get the capitals right though
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2008.12.29 09:33:00 - [33] It's pathetic how people need to voice their opinions in such a manner, this thread is a disgrace now. TornSoul, you're as much at fault for responding to them. [WTS] Tech II Component BPO Sets
Ambo State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.12.29 11:11:00 - [34] Ok, lets get a few things straight here. I was thinking about replying when this was first posted. Instead I thought 'well, I won't stick my oar in'. However, then there was this post. Originally by: TornSoul Wow... This surely is selling slow... 3% might not be an incredible interest rate. But I don't believe it's that bad either. It seemed to be asking for an explanation so I offered my explanation as to why I was not buying into it. I'll deal with this step-by-step: 1) Originally by: Ambo I'm afraid your past dealings, seemingly trying to confound investors at every turn makes me hesitant. How do you construe this to be me saying you'll scam? This implies nothing what so ever about you stealing isk. Since you want the facts, what I am referring to is your tone and attitude in previous reports. As I stated in my first reply to this thread, you don't seem to make any effort to help your investors or give them what they are asking for. This is probably my biggest concern with investing in you. 2) Quote: rapid expansions are always suspicious Well they are... Yes, the implication is that you might run off with the isk. Your past history has bugger all to do with anything here. After people like FB and Ionia scammed, it showed that reputation means nothing. In your case, I don't believe you will scam at all but it's still worth taking into consideration. 3) Quote: The 3% interest rate is very low It is. Originally by: TornSoul "Scam prevention" : Hmm let me see... It's about trust, for EBANK as well as for BMBE. Plain an simple Yes it is to an extent. But firstly, I trust ebank more than you. Secondly, no character in ebank has access to all the isk like you do. Ok, so in BMBE it's mostly lent out most of the time but we only have you word on that. In ebank's case, we have multiple people, all overseeing things and confirming that it's working. Addmittedly, this could be some insanely elaborate ruse where all or most of the characters are actually controlled by Ricdic... but I don't think so. Originally by: TornSoul "Get the ISK when you want" : Well heres the apple/oranges bit. . I'm pretty sure that was a (deliberate) oversight on your part. So this one doesnt even count... ROFL! Look, I care about about a few key things with my investments: rate of return, security, access to the cash. BMBE does not allow quick access to the cash. That's fine, I've got other investments like that, but it does not invalidate the point. Originally by: TornSoul "history of being helpful and accomodating to thier customers." And the BMBE does not? Have you ever talked to, or heard from, a BMBE customer? Sorry, I should say investor, not customer. Yes, I have spoken to a few and they were all pretty ***ed off with you. So again, that's why I* am not investing in this. Frankly your response has made me that much gladder that I did not choose to invest. Your attitude and tone are, once again, agressive and confrontational. Rather than seeking to understand my point of view and trying to correct or at least acknowledge your flaws, you just start shouting and getting all defensive. Well that's fine, I'm not biased at all and I'm not trying to sink your ship. In fact I have no interest in it. Good luck to you and I hope you raise the cash. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.29 16:51:00 - [35] Originally by: Ray McCormack It's pathetic how people need to voice their opinions in such a manner, this thread is a disgrace now. TornSoul, you're as much at fault for responding to them. Yup I am (became). Whole bond offering where derailed as it was anyhow, so I thought why not "take the bull(ies) by the horns" so to speak. For whatever reason, the last posts after my last post, pretty much all now have good arguments and (non-veiled) opinions. That's the kind of comments I don't mind one bit - Quite the contrary. There's really only one major "proof or STFU" point (from Ambo) - The rest (from Ambo as well) is good discussion. I'll get around to them all a bit later (maybe not today - As it's BIG Lottery draw tonight) BIG Lottery
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.29 22:26:00 - [36] Just read a thread started by Morrning Starr (New Stock Exchange), and the consistent courteous replies she offers to the abuse (yes I think most of it is abuse) simply astonishes/impresses me. I had already prepared a post (in text editor) picking Frenden Dax's post with ease to itsy bitsy pieces (it was long...) - I'm gonna hit the delete button on that after this post... I'm gonna try Morrning Starr's approach instead (not sure I can anymore... But I'll try). This post mostly to lock myself in to that promise Won't have time tonight. Will be interesting to see how I feel about it tomorrow More merry Christmas to everyone (although it's getting a bit late for it now) BIG Lottery
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.31 08:50:00 - [37] @Frenden Dax #1 "Point Game" The points game was in fact started by Ambo, I merely took it to it's ridiculous extreme (to illustrate the point of it being ridiculous). I think most of us agree the comparison doesnt hold, so lets just leave it at that shall we. "Hostage" + "All Your Monies Are Belong To Us" At a guess, I think our differing opinions on how BMBE is (should be) run, probably has it's root's in our view on what an IPO is (or should be), and the role of shareholders in that. Let me offer my view: If i take part in an IPO, by buying a share, I do so with a few expectations. - I hope to make some ISK on dividends - I hope I down the road can sell my share for a profit (to other share buyers), should I be dis-satisfied with dividends or whatever. - I accept there's risk involved. -- The business might close down, and I might loose all the ISK invested (the share) -- Dividend might not be what I had hoped for. -- The share price might not go up as I had hoped, even perhaps deterioate in value. ()In the event of any of the "bad things" happening above, I don't expect anyone* to bail me out (baybacks etc). I took the risk, it's my loss. Furthermore: Unless explicitly stated so, I don't expect to have any saying in how the IPO issuer runs the business (and as long as I get divs I frankly don't care) The above includes that (as with the BMBE) if the IPO explicitly states that I will not have a say in the running of the business, then I accept that. The above said, it doesnt imply that I'll necessarily stay quiet on issues. It does however imply that I'll accept if the IPO issuer chooses to ignore what I have to say. I would most definatly never demand the IPO issuer to obey any of my wishes. The notion, to me, is absurd. As such is the conditions I've accepted by buying the share (In my view at least) Now I'm pretty sure you disagree with at least some parts of the above (else we wouldnt have this debate in the first place), especially the ()'ed bit. And that leads us right to the "Hostage" + "All Your Monies Are Belong To Us"* bit. As you can tell, I see nothing unreasonable in the situation you (and others) describe with words/phrases having such negative connotations. You obviously do, hence the choise of words. I might point out that this extends to all IPO's, not just the BMBE. I happen to have shares in other IPO's as well, where I accept those conditions. I think we simply will have to agree to disagree on that issue. "Yes, it's unique to BMBE, because most IPOs will offer a buyback very very close to the actual share value." I will have to disagree that it's unique to the BMBE - This is patently false. A quick skim through Haskell's excellent IPO/Bonds/loans survey should suffice. BIG Lottery
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.31 08:51:00 - [38] @Frenden Dax #2 "Out of Many, Few:" You postulate that a handfull of people "might be the only remaining active shareholders.". I'd honestly like to see how you get to that number. You don't really believe in that yourself do you? The best numbers I can dig up are from a dev blog about the (first) CSM results : council of stellar management: the results are in! I'm pretty sure I've seen a dev blog or similar stating what the average age of EVE players are, but I can't find it, so the following will have to do as a guide : The average age of accounts voting is 1.77 years, meaning that most votes were cast by veteran players. 40% of the voting accounts are veterans of two years or more whilst those veterans constitute 29% of the eligible voters. So while the BMBE is near 3 years old, I definatly believe the math works out so that there should be quite a few more than just a "handfull" of still active shareholders. "Closing Remarks" I believe I'm perfectly well capable of distinguishing between factual information and slander - Even though you belive I'm not. -shrug- Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. I've even put quite a lot of facts on the table for this reply and not just my "gut ideas" on things - Which I think you have done (special reference to the "Out of Many, Few:") You further more deposit that my saying "If I have a problem with someone, you can rest assured I'll settle it without stooping to slander and mis-information." implies that "everyone who disagrees with you is either mis-informed or slandering you." You are wrong - It doesnt imply any such thing. It does however reveal that you apparently equal everyone who disagrees with you to "having a problme with someone" I'm perfectly fine with people disagreeing with me, it most certainly doesnt mean I'll have a problem with them - As it apperently does to you. So seeing as we disagree on so many things I guess you have a problem with me? I don't have a problem with you - I simply disagree with you. Each to his. BIG Lottery
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.31 08:51:00 - [39] @cosmoray Agree with everything you outlined there. Except ofc the placement of BMBE as a Tier 2 This ofc stems from having the luxury of knowing excactly if I myself would ever scam or not. Others obviously don't have the same degree of luxury - So fair enough I guess. @Ambo Firstly - I'll retract my "There's really only one major "proof or STFU" point (from Ambo)" I misread what you wrote, and took the "spoken to a few" as still refering to BMBE clients (instead of shareholders), even though you just corrected yourself on that one. My bad. you don't seem to make any effort to help your investors or give them what they are asking for. This is probably my biggest concern with investing in you. This is false. As already stated I can name several instances where I've done excactly that (or the BMBE would not be what it is today) You choose to continue to ignore this fact. -shrug- Nothing I can do about that, other than keep pointing out it's incorrect. Quote: Quote: rapid expansions are always suspicious Well they are... Yes, the implication is that you might run off with the isk. Your past history has bugger all to do with anything here. After people like FB and Ionia scammed, it showed that reputation means nothing. In your case, I don't believe you will scam at all but it's still worth taking into consideration. Well... Please understand that I get a bit touchy when someone states that I might scam (however remotely they believe the chance of that occuring is) And regardless of the precedence set by FB and Ionia, past reputation still plays a role, especially the furter it extends back. And I've been around since the beginning, and then some... So as said, I get a bit touchy, when people lump me into the same boat as the above mentioned and other would be scammers. "BMBE does not allow quick access to the cash. That's fine, I've got other investments like that" Uhm... Then I don't understand why you even brought it up. -shrug- It's inherent in an IPO that you dont have "quick access" to your ISK (see my reply to Frenden Dax as well) Your attitude and tone are, once again, agressive and confrontational. Rather than seeking to understand my point of view and trying to correct or at least acknowledge your flaws, you just start shouting and getting all defensive. You are correct, I've unfortuntaly, for too long, succumbed to the usual tone in this forum. I hope to change that - And hope that these last few posts are the start of that. BIG Lottery
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2008.12.31 09:08:00 - [40] Holy great wall of text Batman!! And... Originally by: Ray McCormack TornSoul, you're as much at fault for responding to them. Don't feed us..... Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.31 09:20:00 - [41] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Holy great wall of text Batman!! And... Originally by: Ray McCormack TornSoul, you're as much at fault for responding to them. Don't feed us..... Well... I kinda promised I would... Originally by: TornSoul I'll get around to them all a bit later (maybe not today - As it's BIG Lottery draw tonight) And yes, that took a very long time to get done... And hardly a barb in sight in all of that either (not 100% pure, but close enough for a first attempt...) BIG Lottery
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.12.31 09:24:00 - [42] So much forum warfare going on in here that it cracks me up. To be fair, I think the problem you are having, TS, is quite simple. People get nervous when you expand your business this quickly after having long periods of (arguably) bad performance. The interest rate is by no means bad. It's one of the better ones out there.
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2008.12.31 12:49:00 - [43] I am a BMBE shareholder. So yeah we are still around. Back when I invested in BMBE I did not do so because I expected to all or any of my isk back, I did so because I thought it was an interesting experiment. If nothing else it's been worth it just for the forum entertainment :) So keep going TornSoul, you at least have my mandate. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.01.03 14:42:00 - [44] Thank you Hoshi. ---- This Bonds offering has been closed. So it ends up at just a 5B ISK issuance. Reason being that 2 loantakers have made some rather substantial downpayments on their loans, so that BMBE again has a bit of liquid ISK, and thus does not need to issue any more bonds atm. BIG Lottery
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.01.12 20:37:00 - [45] Edited by: TornSoul on 12/01/2009 20:43:04 Bonds have been bought back in full, a couple of days early. The full interest for 4 weeks have been paid. This closes the BMBE 50B bonds#2 BIG Lottery

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