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J Tang	Posted - 2008.12.18 05:30:00 - [31] Them: Engage with 2 Falcons. You: Beat them. Them: Engage with 5 Falcons. You: Lose. (or so you indicate) Them: Engage with 5 Falcons. You: Lose again. Presumably. Them: Engage with 5 Falcons. You: Still don't improve your situation. I'm trolling.
Ronin Reborn Wrath of Fenris	Posted - 2008.12.18 05:57:00 - [32] Originally by: Research Rachel bs's with no eccm fitted is bad, ok? I remember when it was not so but i have an a falcon alt and love my falcon mates so adept ot die i guess?
EFT Warrior	Posted - 2008.12.18 06:11:00 - [33] Sadly my alt is a miner. It would've been more useful to have a falcon alt for PvP, but I wanted to experience the whole game, silly me. I have yet to see a single 0.0 gang, roaming or otherwise, NOT have a falcon. Every fleet, big or small, pirates or sov holders, hell even someone sitting solo on a gate has a falcon alt nearby.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2008.12.18 06:17:00 - [34] Originally by: MADDOGzors Ya a sniping apoc will tear them apart, but what about when they learn after one fight to primary your apocs every time, or whatever sniping ship you have. Is this based on experience? I can imagine that jamming the logistics while calling primary on the sniper might help a little, but surely you've got more stuff in your fleet that can get within range in that time? Quote: It can sit up to 249km out ... So plenty of range for an alpha boat of some flavour to warp to 10km and blow them out of the water, right? Quote: Would it seem right if a fight was actually affected by your skill and tactics rather than 1 ship simply locking targets and hitting 1 module? Yeah, doomsday weapons and smartbombs really suck don't they!
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.18 09:44:00 - [35] Edited by: Esmenet on 18/12/2008 09:59:11 Originally by: MADDOGzors Ok listen, I'm not trying to be a ***. But I don't need advice, I know what I'm doing. If you did you would not be here whining. Originally by:** MADDOGzors They never engage us on our terms. Guess its the first time you uber elite pvp'ers have faced people that fight back then? Ask them nicely to come one by one in shuttles and haulers perhaps?
Skallebank Minmatar Mentis Fidelis Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.12.18 10:09:00 - [36] Originally by: MADDOGzors I remember now why I don't post here expecting a normal discussion. 90% of you simply just don't have a clue, and assume every person making a thread is a nub. Fact is falcons are a problem, especially when people that suck at pvp feel the need to bring 5 of them because they can't compete if other people are actually allowed to lock them. If you people can't understand that, you're just one of those people over-using them. lol stop whinging and make sure u have some in ur gang. we never do anything without scouts and ewar mkay FREEDOM OF SPEECH WHATS THAT ?
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.18 10:13:00 - [37] "First of all, this is by no means a thread to complain about falcons" Followed by a long post complaining about Falcons. FFS
Evlyna	Posted - 2008.12.18 10:23:00 - [38] Edited by: Evlyna on 18/12/2008 10:23:26 Originally by: MADDOGzors K, I'll go even more into detail. These are normally 20-30 man gangs with 5 falcons. All in cruisers, frigs, and bs's. You can't put a bunch of sniping bs's up against that. They never engage us on our terms. It's a FW blob of nubs. They won't fight unless they have their ecm setup up at range. Then you have those gangs plus battleship gangs joining them just because we're pirates. You can't focus your fleet around falcons when you have that much incoming dps. Trust me we've been dealing with this since FW came out. There's no real solution. It's a pathetic tactic people use that makes them feel safe. Now you get rid of those falcons, put them in any other ship and they get decimated. But because they have a falcon blob they get more kills than they should. The only way to combat that is have a falcon blob of your own, which doesn't make pvp any more fun. We can sit here and talk tactics all day but just trust me, it a nub tactic they take advantage of. Funny how whiners call "nubs" and/or tacticless or whatever everybody using efficiently something that they can't be arsed to adapt to. You're the nub, not the people beating you by using the right ships/tactics against you when they need to. Falcon pilots will not necessarily fly this ship "to be safe". You're assumptions are flawed by your inability to adapt and understand what PvP and Tactic is. (Let's not use the uber fights someone might had). 10 BS don't stand a chance against 25 "normally" or "theorically", put 2 falcons in the lot, they might get away with it. Put 5, they might win. You call them nubs. I call them winners.
baltec1 R.U.S.T. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.18 12:03:00 - [39] Edited by: baltec1 on 18/12/2008 12:05:36 Originally by: MADDOGzors Ok listen, I'm not trying to be a *****. But I don't need advice, I know what I'm doing. And if you would read, you would know we're pirates, so ya frigates on a gate, not a good idea. What are you talking about Hagilur for? We moved from there months ago. Stop trying to assume our fleet composition. It's battleships, recons, dictors, hacs, anything that can tank gate guns during a fight. So quit over-analyzing all this, it's real simple. They have a falcon blob, it's a nub fleet, half of us can't lock, they can. I'm not saying we lose engagements, but it's annoying when people needlessly die because of 5 falcons. Think about it for a second. You're a nub in a FW fleet of like 30 people. You see a pirate gang of 10-15, that has owned you for months. Oh god we know the pirates are better so uh lets just bring excessive ecm and they won't be able to hurt us as bad. Adapt your tactics and fleet setup like they have. If they are always set up and have falcons at max range (250km) then my bomber tactic is perfect. You are out of range of range of the gate guns and you only need 5 bombers to wipe out any falcon in a single salvo. Because of the massive range nothing will be able to get to your posision in time to do anything to stop you. All you need is a cov ops scout to set up a warp in point next to the falcon and fleet warp in your bombers. Lock, fire, boom, warp off to safe spot. Job done. If they hang around select another target or if they move off have the cov ops follow and continue picking off targets.
daisy dook	Posted - 2008.12.18 12:10:00 - [40] Originally by: MADDOGzors K, I'll go even more into detail. These are normally 20-30 man gangs with 5 falcons. All in cruisers, frigs, and bs's. You can't put a bunch of sniping bs's up against that. They never engage us on our terms. It's a FW blob of nubs. They won't fight unless they have their ecm setup up at range. Then you have those gangs plus battleship gangs joining them just because we're pirates. You can't focus your fleet around falcons when you have that much incoming dps. Trust me we've been dealing with this since FW came out. There's no real solution. It's a pathetic tactic people use that makes them feel safe. Now you get rid of those falcons, put them in any other ship and they get decimated. But because they have a falcon blob they get more kills than they should. The only way to combat that is have a falcon blob of your own, which doesn't make pvp any more fun. We can sit here and talk tactics all day but just trust me, it a nub tactic they take advantage of. Feeling the urge to troll... you know their tactics, you are engaging on their terms and you complain that you are losing. If its a nub tactic then your advanced uber tactics should wipe the floor with them regardless of how much ecm they bring.
The Tzar Malicious Intentions The Church.	Posted - 2008.12.18 13:08:00 - [41] Personally I've found no problems whatsoever when in BS gangs against the 'unexpected' falcon or three. Generally the gang is comprised of only two races BS so this immediately cuts down the chance of being jammed by half due to race selection. We always fly with every BS fit with at least one ECCM giving the BS something in the region of 60 sensor strength. I don't care who you are, even against fully spec'd falcons this only gives a racial about 25% chance of a jam. It doesn't quite work like this but that would need one fully racial fit falcon per BS to be the permajamming machine that exists on these forums. Permajam..., god how I hate people spouting that utter bull$hit. If the fight looks like it might go sour, deagress and jump through, if you're at a gate. You can be pretty much assured that falcon won't be following you through for the next quarter of an hour! If you're at a station undock and get the falcon to show itself whilst you position a covops for a warp in and nail the mofo. It really isn't as hard as everyone suggests. The more people jabber about how WTFPWN a falcon is, the more confident it makes these (in the most part) nub ECMers and the easier it is for us to kill them. __________________________________________ 'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________
The Tzar Malicious Intentions The Church.	Posted - 2008.12.18 13:11:00 - [42] Originally by: MADDOGzors They never engage us on our terms. The idea is that you dictate the terms. If the terms have been dictated to you and you allowed it then the opposing fleet deserve to win no? __________________________________________ 'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________
Labienus Gallente Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.12.18 13:49:00 - [43] Edited by: Labienus on 18/12/2008 13:49:05 Why post if you dont need advice and your not complaining What exactly was the point in posting then? Counters... -Bring a Scorpian <- ECCM fitted, Caldari Jammers, Cruise Loaded. -Focus your Fleet into one race <- The falcons wont be 100% one race in Jammers. -Mix a few Snipers into your fleet <- They dont know which are the snipers when the fight starts -Bring an EOS <- you know that useless ship with the gang mod to increase sensor strength? -Bring Any Battlecruiser with the Sensor integrity gang mod -Fit ECCM, mix with Eos. -Try getting them to engage somewhere there isnt a gate? So then you can use frigates like...stealth Bombers... -Bring an Arazu, lachesis, celestis. <- Damp the Falcon, overheat, burn towards it. Yes damps work, or mine are just special. -Bring a Cerb, eagle etc Other sniping Hacs. -See if they always use the same bookmarks and make one close by? <- Warp to bookmark, burn to it, others warp. -Cloak your gang sit on a safe spot, whine on the forums. There are more counters that i cant think of right now, im sure. Also.. - A Falcon 249km from the fight is in falloff. Less chance of Jamming. Eos + ECCM, even less chance. - Why should 15 battleships be able to tear apart 20 cruisers? - If ECCM is useless as its only good if they bring falcons...and apparently everyone is bringing falcons, surely its good? At the end of a day, a gang with some falcons, BS, support should beat a Battleship gang as its a mixed gang taking advantage of every area of warfare.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.12.18 14:04:00 - [44] Originally by: Mire Stoude Falcon's are a pain, but I would rather see the other recons boosted before the Falcon nerfed. Sure, just give back our pre nos nerf curse and pilgrim and pre damp nerf arazus. Those are pretty much just as imblanced as the falcon right now. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.18 14:28:00 - [45] weep additionally Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.12.18 14:43:00 - [46] I wouldnt mind seeing a change for falcons, but a nerf is definately not needed. CCP have a funny way of indirectly changing things to deal with this kind of thing, without actually changing the ship much (like they did with af's); so I hope that happens this time. A flat out nerf is not a good idea, we saw what that did to the arazu. Though I agree falcons are a little too essential. Sometimes I deliberately dont buy them because.. A) Their expensive and Im poor. B) I wouldnt get to fly anything else (if fc knows u have a falcon, ur briging the falcon lol) But its mostly A EVE history t2 precisions
daisy dook	Posted - 2008.12.18 14:54:00 - [47] Originally by: BiggestT I wouldnt mind seeing a change for falcons, but a nerf is definately not needed. CCP have a funny way of indirectly changing things to deal with this kind of thing, without actually changing the ship much (like they did with af's); so I hope that happens this time. A flat out nerf is not a good idea, we saw what that did to the arazu. Though I agree falcons are a little too essential. Sometimes I deliberately dont buy them because.. A) Their expensive and Im poor. B) I wouldnt get to fly anything else (if fc knows u have a falcon, ur briging the falcon lol) But its mostly A I thought FCs were BS totalitarians; if you wouldn't/couldn't fly one then they might be kind and stop the fleet laughing at you if you field a Falcon. Seriously, ECM is powerful and regardless of the particular bird used (Falcon, Rook, Blackbird) an FC would be a fool not to take advantage it it is available.
Zak Zerachiel Caldari Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.12.18 15:12:00 - [48] Originally by: Labienus STUFF ^ Gets it
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.12.18 15:29:00 - [49] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 18/12/2008 15:32:25 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 18/12/2008 15:30:22 Originally by: Labienus At the end of a day, a gang with some falcons, BS, support should beat a Battleship gang as its a mixed gang taking advantage of every area of warfare. That is not the problem and you know it. The problem is that 1 falcon + 1 inty can beat a BS. The problem is that 2 falcons + 6 inties can beat a gang of 8 BCs or alike. The problem is that the light dps, fast tackle + falcon gangs never die. They on the other hand can tilt a battle unreasonable by decloaking a falcon and kill big targets. Whats the counter? Other inties? They'll get jammed. Heavy ships? They are sitting ducks and are getting jammed while a flock of dps inties easily break even a BS tank. Sniper hacs as counter? Nope they get insta jammed and insta tackled. Stealth bombers? Nope, inties insta pop em before they can dent the falcons. Other falcons? Inties all burn for it while they get counterjammed and need to choose between warping off fast or dying. Sniper BS? Get jammed, not enough slots to reach very high ranges and being ecm proof. Blob? Works, but that works against everything. Duh... Use same tactic? Sure but that's a hint that something is OP... Yeah, we do deploy this extreme lame tactic. You can't lose and it is the new fotm and is very similar to the nano plague. Falcons + combat inties in flocks. You can't beat em, you can't catch em and they can catch and kill anything decent sized. Falcons not OP? Don't make me laugh. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story
daisy dook	Posted - 2008.12.18 15:36:00 - [50] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 18/12/2008 15:30:22 Originally by: Labienus At the end of a day, a gang with some falcons, BS, support should beat a Battleship gang as its a mixed gang taking advantage of every area of warfare. That is not the problem and you know it. The problem is that 1 falcon + 1 inty can beat a BS. The problem is that 2 falcons + 6 inties can beat a gang of 8 BCs or alike. The problem is that the light dps, fast tackle + falcon gangs never die. They on the other hand can tilt a battle unreasonable by decloaking a falcon and kill big targets. Whats the counter? Other inties? They'll get jammed. Heavy ships? They are sitting ducks and are getting jammed while a flock of dps inties easily break even a BS tank. Sniper hacs as counter? Nope they get insta jammed and insta tackled. Stealth bombers? Nope, inties insta pop em before they can dent the falcons. Other falcons? Inties all burn for it while they get counterjammed and need to choose between warping off fast or dying. Sniper BS? Get jammed, not enough slots to reach very high ranges and being ecm proof. Blob? Works, but that works against everything. Duh... Use same tactic? Sure but that's a hint that something is OP... Yeah, we do deploy this extreme lame tactic. You can't lose and it is the new fotm. Falcons + combat inties in flocks. You can't beat em, you can't catch em and they can catch and kill anything decent sized. Falcons not OP? Don't make me laugh. Lyria, The answer to your Falcon/Intie problem is an active tank; you'll be at an impass until a jam cycle is missed then you kill the Falcon - if you fit ECCM then that missed jam is likely to happen quick and more frequently. I thought it was gospel that BS shouldn't travel alone.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.12.18 15:41:00 - [51] Originally by: daisy dook Lyria, The answer to your Falcon/Intie problem is an active tank; you'll be at an impass until a jam cycle is missed then you kill the Falcon - if you fit ECCM then that missed jam is likely to happen quick and more frequently. I thought it was gospel that BS shouldn't travel alone. You do know combat inties can have somthing around 150dps (depending on ammo and ship). 6 of them is 900dps and yeah all those 900 will hit fully when they fire on things. You want to tell me that your active tank will save you while being jammed to **** while pounded on with 900dps? Active tank is not a solution at all, it's even worse tbh and who says you'll be in range of the falcon at all? What ship are you talking about here? ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story
daisy dook	Posted - 2008.12.18 16:45:00 - [52] Edited by: daisy dook on 18/12/2008 16:46:31 Edited by: daisy dook on 18/12/2008 16:45:41 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You do know combat inties can have somthing around 150dps (depending on ammo and ship). 6 of them is 900dps and yeah all those 900 will hit fully when they fire on things. You want to tell me that your active tank will save you while being jammed to **** while pounded on with 900dps? Active tank is not a solution at all, it's even worse tbh and who says you'll be in range of the falcon at all? What ship are you talking about here? That was the answer to one intie and one falcon; you might have also noted the comment about BS's travelling alone... The solution to the 8 on 8 (2 Falcons & Inties) is to have a balanced gang of the same race - I'm sure you can see the sense of fitting all BS (though I would never advocate a gang of just BS's with no support) with ECCM and at least one BS fitted for range. Remember EFT DPS means nothing if you can't target!
Superfailsauce Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.12.18 17:31:00 - [53] :( Poasting in Falcon thread number 18350 There are ways and means to deal with falcons, to drive them off, to kill them even. If you can't figure these things out then you can always not engage the FW blobs who seem to be consistently out thinking you. Yes Falcons are lame, so don't give them the satisfaction of a fight until they put them away. What the hell am I talking about anyway? TFS always fields at least 3 Falcons, at least in my experience. Karma Hurts. ------- Larkonis' Alt, main got banned.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.12.18 17:55:00 - [54] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 18/12/2008 17:56:42 Originally by: daisy dook Edited by: daisy dook on 18/12/2008 16:46:31 Edited by: daisy dook on 18/12/2008 16:45:41 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You do know combat inties can have somthing around 150dps (depending on ammo and ship). 6 of them is 900dps and yeah all those 900 will hit fully when they fire on things. You want to tell me that your active tank will save you while being jammed to **** while pounded on with 900dps? Active tank is not a solution at all, it's even worse tbh and who says you'll be in range of the falcon at all? What ship are you talking about here? That was the answer to one intie and one falcon; you might have also noted the comment about BS's travelling alone... The solution to the 8 on 8 (2 Falcons & Inties) is to have a balanced gang of the same race - I'm sure you can see the sense of fitting all BS (though I would never advocate a gang of just BS's with no support) with ECCM and at least one BS fitted for range. Remember EFT DPS means nothing if you can't target! How many BS in general pvp fitted can tank 150+dps permanently? A taranis can push way over 200dps for example. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.18 18:06:00 - [55] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer How many BS in general pvp fitted can tank 150+dps permanently? A taranis can push way over 200dps for example. Most of them can tank 150-200 dps considerably longer than a ceptor can tank 5 light drones tbh.
daisy dook	Posted - 2008.12.18 18:13:00 - [56] Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 18/12/2008 18:07:39 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer How many BS in general pvp fitted can tank 150+dps permanently? A taranis can push way over 200dps for example. Most BS can tank 150-200 dps considerably longer than any interceptor can tank 5 light drones. It's alright, she's not listening... She lost it on the BS travelling alone bit.
JS LiamElms Gallente Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.18 18:42:00 - [57] i enjoy falcons trying to jam my rapier.... simple, you not only have eccm, but try looking at backup arrys on your lows too! and get a gang with different setups and roles... enough of these whines! face it, once your jammed, your deagression timer is going to be less.... lol, the amount of times i get jammed in my bs, tank out their small gang and jump back.. falcon pilots seem to think a perma jam is helpful on gates >.<
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.12.18 18:49:00 - [58] Originally by: daisy dook Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 18/12/2008 18:07:39 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer How many BS in general pvp fitted can tank 150+dps permanently? A taranis can push way over 200dps for example. Most BS can tank 150-200 dps considerably longer than any interceptor can tank 5 light drones. It's alright, she's not listening... She lost it on the BS travelling alone bit. I don't really care if you think that. I'm rarely on the recieving end of all this. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.12.18 18:52:00 - [59] Originally by: JS LiamElms i enjoy falcons trying to jam my rapier.... simple, you not only have eccm, but try looking at backup arrys on your lows too! and get a gang with different setups and roles... enough of these whines! face it, once your jammed, your deagression timer is going to be less.... lol, the amount of times i get jammed in my bs, tank out their small gang and jump back.. falcon pilots seem to think a perma jam is helpful on gates >.< Many people don't fight people at gates for that reason...
JS LiamElms Gallente Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.18 19:05:00 - [60] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Originally by: JS LiamElms i enjoy falcons trying to jam my rapier.... simple, you not only have eccm, but try looking at backup arrys on your lows too! and get a gang with different setups and roles... enough of these whines! face it, once your jammed, your deagression timer is going to be less.... lol, the amount of times i get jammed in my bs, tank out their small gang and jump back.. falcon pilots seem to think a perma jam is helpful on gates >.< Many people don't fight people at gates for that reason... kinda off topic, but unless your chasing ratters.... fights are at pos's gates and stations.... been a long time since i had a fleet fight at some random spot tbh!

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