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Hial Xexal Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.12.26 12:55:00 - [1] Hey there, I've been recently checking out ships and noticed a Nightmare. I was wondering if anyone had any experience with it PvE/P? How does it compare to other battleships etc? Any advice would be great. Thanks
Tahlma Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.26 13:12:00 - [2] Ive never flown it. But in I believe it is agreed that it is the ultimate mission running ship for amarrians. If you run missions for amarrian agents this ship or the paladin should be your goal. There are a lot of reasons for this but you should do a forum search for the many multi page threads on the topic. If you care about the "whys" anyway.
Robert Rumpletweezer Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.12.26 13:13:00 - [3] Edited by: Robert Rumpletweezer on 26/12/2008 13:13:44 Great in Pve, one of the best mission running ships out there. Not worth it in PvP, unless you have billions of ISK to spare. Mid-way PvP faction setups universally suck when shield tanking, you basically need a Gist XL Booster for it to shine, otherwise you may as well field a T2 fitted gank BS.
Helen coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.26 13:58:00 - [4] Personally I think its the best mission running ship full stop. Against Amarr Navy/Sansha/Blood Raider/Serpentis/Merc it just destroys bc and less in a volley. Incredible dps which doesn't require a faction/officer fit to do well, some people will say a Paladin would be better but frankly I fly both with max skills and I reckon my mission times are alot quicker with the Nightmare thanks to the tracking bonus letting me hit cruisers at <20km. Although the Paladin is handy for the long range tractor bonus letting you scoop up the mission loot abit quicker. To be honest I think you have to try a Nightmare to really understand how good it is.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.26 14:14:00 - [5] if it's good enough for the TRI ARMY it's good enough for me!
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.26 14:59:00 - [6] Excellent in PvE. Having been on the wrong end of one in PvP at least once, with a smart fitting it can (for example) easily give a Falcon pilot a good scare.
Ron Armatech	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:03:00 - [7] with mega pulses it can pop frigs below 15km, was succesful in killing elite angel cruisers orbiting me at around 4km too. really shines in PvE :)
Xori Ruscuv Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:09:00 - [8] Just curious - is the Nightmare a pain to use against Guristas/Angels? Or does it do so much damage and tank so well that you really don't need to worry about it? I've never flown one, in fact I've never even done a mission in a gunship. So I'm just wondering...
Petyr Baelich Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:41:00 - [9] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Just curious - is the Nightmare a pain to use against Guristas/Angels? Or does it do so much damage and tank so well that you really don't need to worry about it? I've never flown one, in fact I've never even done a mission in a gunship. So I'm just wondering... Compared to all other factions, yes a Nightmare will be a pain to use against Guristas and to a lesser extent, Angels. However the extremely high alpha damage of tachs coupled with the proper drones makes these missions still very viable. (I decline all Gurista missions because someday I may wish to repair my pirate faction standings and as my blood/sansha standings are already -8.xx I need to keep one faction open) I still do Angel/Sansha WC and AE however, and my completion times in those are not far behind (if behind at all) that of a well-flown Raven. Even a best-named fitted Nightmare will push 900 dps out to 55k with 5k volleys, with that kind of output tanks break very quickly. You're really only going to have a problem with Gurista battleships and usually because you're being jammed half the time and their boosters let them catch up. Very easy to simply decline all gurista missions (Amarr agents do not offer very many of these).
Xori Ruscuv Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:47:00 - [10] Originally by: Petyr Baelich Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Just curious - is the Nightmare a pain to use against Guristas/Angels? Or does it do so much damage and tank so well that you really don't need to worry about it? I've never flown one, in fact I've never even done a mission in a gunship. So I'm just wondering... Compared to all other factions, yes a Nightmare will be a pain to use against Guristas and to a lesser extent, Angels. However the extremely high alpha damage of tachs coupled with the proper drones makes these missions still very viable. (I decline all Gurista missions because someday I may wish to repair my pirate faction standings and as my blood/sansha standings are already -8.xx I need to keep one faction open) I still do Angel/Sansha WC and AE however, and my completion times in those are not far behind (if behind at all) that of a well-flown Raven. Even a best-named fitted Nightmare will push 900 dps out to 55k with 5k volleys, with that kind of output tanks break very quickly. You're really only going to have a problem with Gurista battleships and usually because you're being jammed half the time and their boosters let them catch up. Very easy to simply decline all gurista missions (Amarr agents do not offer very many of these). <3 the corp and alliance names.
Dahlia Houghton The Tetragrammaton Council	Posted - 2008.12.26 21:30:00 - [11] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Just curious - is the Nightmare a pain to use against Guristas/Angels? Or does it do so much damage and tank so well that you really don't need to worry about it? I've never flown one, in fact I've never even done a mission in a gunship. So I'm just wondering... Seem's fine to me, although its not technically doing "correct" damage types to Guristas/Angel due to the no reload feature it still instapops Caldari/Guristas BC and lower on occassion. As for the guy mentioning mega pulse I still don't get the mentatilty of fitting pulse when tachs offer greater range and let you complete missions quicker...
Lanu 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.12.26 22:07:00 - [12] Edited by: Lanu on 26/12/2008 22:10:06 Originally by: Helen Personally I think its the best mission running ship full stop. Against Amarr Navy/Sansha/Blood Raider/Serpentis/Merc it just destroys bc and less in a volley. Incredible dps which doesn't require a faction/officer fit to do well, some people will say a Paladin would be better but frankly I fly both with max skills and I reckon my mission times are alot quicker with the Nightmare thanks to the tracking bonus letting me hit cruisers at <20km. Although the Paladin is handy for the long range tractor bonus letting you scoop up the mission loot abit quicker. To be honest I think you have to try a Nightmare to really understand how good it is. Agreed. My second acount has both ships.. i've flown them both with named/t2 fitting and with faction fit. Even high-end officer equipment. And I must admit that nightmare > paladin. Even more so for PVP. Paladin fitting : http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/0812/paladinsexyness.JPG Nightmare fitting (this is with lg crystal set) : http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/LIGHT/hmmm.JPG Both of these setups can perma run. And only for some angel missions I prefer the paladin over the nightmare just because of the better tracking etc with the 2 tracking comps + pulses. With a ROF of 6 seconds I've had volley's of over 10k () with the nightmare ffs
Red Harvest	Posted - 2008.12.26 22:20:00 - [13] Just would like to add that the nightmares shieldtank also has the advantage that you can upgrade it significantly with a crystal imp set. (and its easier to fit than most other ships too)
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.12.27 00:59:00 - [14] Edited by: Zeba on 27/12/2008 01:01:52 Originally by: Lanu Nightmare fitting (this is with lg crystal set) : http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/LIGHT/hmmm.JPG Both of these setups can perma run. And only for some angel missions I prefer the paladin over the nightmare just because of the better tracking etc with the 2 tracking comps + pulses. With a ROF of 6 seconds I've had volley's of over 10k () with the nightmare ffs Geeze people you don't need all that exspensive stuff on your Nightmare you need it in your head so some enterprising mission ship hunter won't single you out for a nice little group suicide bs action. Fit out a Nightmare just like you would with deadspace/officer mods then bump it all back to T2 and cheap faction with all the saved isk going into a hg crystal set. Boosts 1300 shield per cycle and will permarun all mods except for the x-large booster but you only need that in very small bursts once in a while so it won't really effect your cap stability. Also no need for T2 tachs as even with max damage skills they only add about 25 dps and use a bunch moar cap to boot over faction guns. [Nightmare, Just as effective non epeen fit as long as you have a hg crystal set :P] True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink Domination Tracking Enhancer Domination Tracking Enhancer Cap Recharger II Photon Scattering Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Invulnerability Field II Shield Boost Amplifier II X-Large Shield Booster II Domination 100MN Afterburner Ammatar Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Gamma L Ammatar Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Gamma L Ammatar Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Gamma L Ammatar Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Gamma L Drone Link Augmentor I Auto Targeting System II Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.12.27 01:18:00 - [15] Edited by: Qui Shon on 27/12/2008 01:18:28 Originally by: Zeba Geeze people you don't need all that exspensive stuff [Nightmare, Just as effective non epeen fit as long as you have a hg crystal set :P] Domination Tracking Enhancer Domination Tracking Enhancer Uhh, those added 0,5% tracking bonuses sure make those worth it...... Kinda odd talking about wasted isk into expensive mods, then fitting those. T2 Tachs will be worth, at best, 37 dps for me btw, when I get 'em. With Surgical Strike 5 (sometime in march maybe ) it'll be 42 dps, and 250 base volley increase. I'm hoping that'll make it worth the cap expenditure, enough to help me get a few new PB's when it comes to completion times.
Helen The Tetragrammaton Council	Posted - 2008.12.27 01:36:00 - [16] Originally by: Zeba Geeze people you don't need all that exspensive stuff on your Nightmare you need it in your head so some enterprising mission ship hunter won't single you out for a nice little group suicide bs action. Not all of us mission in high sec, I officer fit mine and use it in 0.0. And yes it is worth it.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.12.27 01:40:00 - [17] Originally by: Qui Shon Edited by: Qui Shon on 27/12/2008 01:18:28 Originally by: Zeba Geeze people you don't need all that exspensive stuff [Nightmare, Just as effective non epeen fit as long as you have a hg crystal set :P] Domination Tracking Enhancer Domination Tracking Enhancer Uhh, those added 0,5% tracking bonuses sure make those worth it...... Kinda odd talking about wasted isk into expensive mods, then fitting those. T2 Tachs will be worth, at best, 37 dps for me btw, when I get 'em. With Surgical Strike 5 (sometime in march maybe ) it'll be 42 dps, and 250 base volley increase. I'm hoping that'll make it worth the cap expenditure, enough to help me get a few new PB's when it comes to completion times. Domination tracking enchancers are about 10~20 mil each or less and tbqh I couldnt think of anything else to fit as hg crystals completely open up the last two low slots. Btw they really do make it worth it as there is a noticible increase of hits over a set of TEII on stuff I let get under 20km. As far as the T2 tachs if you feel the extra dps is needed vs the cap use then go right ahead as my fit was just one example the zillion effective ways to fit out a Nightmare for pve. I don't like to draw uneeded attention to myself so I went with the 'lulz no isk 4u suicider' fit with all the good stuff packed away in my(alts) head. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Vikarion Caldari White Rose Society	Posted - 2008.12.27 01:56:00 - [18] Oh, for the love of all things good and nice, DO NOT use Tachyons! I don't know how many times I have to say this. Only use them until you get Mega Pulse II with Scorch. Much higher DPS, and you can reach out to 55 KM optimal with decent skills + another 10 KM fall off. with better skills you'll gain probably about 5KM to both. That's with 3 HS II and 2 Tracking enhancers in the lows, and makes it much easier to pop orbiting cruisers as well. Just make sure you have Hobgoblin IIs for the tiny scrambler frigates.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.12.27 02:03:00 - [19] Originally by: Vikarion Oh, for the love of all things good and nice, DO NOT use Tachyons! I don't know how many times I have to say this. Only use them until you get Mega Pulse II with Scorch. Much higher DPS, and you can reach out to 55 KM optimal with decent skills + another 10 KM fall off. with better skills you'll gain probably about 5KM to both. That's with 3 HS II and 2 Tracking enhancers in the lows, and makes it much easier to pop orbiting cruisers as well. Just make sure you have Hobgoblin IIs for the tiny scrambler frigates. But if I don't fit tachs then I won't be able to insta pop all those ships that start out at 80~100km away and it will take forever to close the distance to pulse range instead of the normal lock pop and roll on to the next room. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Lanu 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.12.27 11:04:00 - [20] Edited by: Lanu on 27/12/2008 11:03:56 Originally by: Helen Not all of us mission in high sec, I officer fit mine and use it in 0.0. And yes it is worth it. I keep on agreeing with you..
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.12.27 11:43:00 - [21] Originally by: Vikarion Oh, for the love of all things good and nice, DO NOT use Tachyons! I don't know how many times I have to say this. Only use them until you get Mega Pulse II with Scorch. Much higher DPS, and you can reach out to 55 KM optimal with decent skills + another 10 KM fall off. with better skills you'll gain probably about 5KM to both. That's with 3 HS II and 2 Tracking enhancers in the lows, and makes it much easier to pop orbiting cruisers as well. Just make sure you have Hobgoblin IIs for the tiny scrambler frigates. It's funny you use so strong expressions, when you're so wrong in your statements. You DO NOT get higher DPS with MP beyond a very small close range window, due to both raw numbers and tracking. As soon as the range increases, say 25km+, the importance of the extra tracking diminishes, and Tachs become superior in every single way. There are only two missions in my agents missionset where MP is preferrable over Tachs, at least that I can think of now. Damsel and Vengeance. Stop the Thief, Slaver 1/2 it makes no difference, so whatever I have fitted when getting either of those works. Here's a chart of raw numbers I made a few months ago. Numbers are not exactly the same for me anymore, but the relationship between them is. http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/03308603d7.jpg
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.12.27 12:05:00 - [22] Originally by: Zeba Domination tracking enchancers are about 10~20 mil each or less and tbqh I couldnt think of anything else to fit as hg crystals completely open up the last two low slots. Btw they really do make it worth it as there is a noticible increase of hits over a set of TEII on stuff I let get under 20km. That's less then 1% increase in tracking. I find it very hard to believe it results in a noticeable increase. Sure, it's not a lot of isk to waste, but as far as bang for the buck goes, those are pretty much at the bottom of the scale. I'm still torn between 2nd TE vs 4th HS. Some missions the 4th HS speeds up, but some where you have to move and rats are perpendicular to your course, the 2nd TE is better. Even with a TC. I'm not unplugging +5's for crystals (need the 6th slot for Torps anyway), nor will I use billion isk fits. I simply make do with less tank for moderately priced modules, with as much T2 as possible. It requires moderate precision and a methodical approach, so as not to waste time or risk the ship, but it's not hard.
Helen The Tetragrammaton Council	Posted - 2008.12.27 12:14:00 - [23] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Helen Not all of us mission in high sec, I officer fit mine and use it in 0.0. Well 0.0 is not high sec carebear mission land so of course your going to officer fit it as mission rats don't need the amount of hurt that kind of fit can bring. Plus you will have access to experienced backup compared to some poor sod whos been solo grinding missions for months to get his shiney exspensively fit Nighmare out of the station only to get it ganked shortly afterwards by some wiley ship scanning suiciders and lose it all. And I use my Nightmare to quickley amass jump clones and not for the lulz small amount of isk you get from level 4 mission running. I actually used to mission in 0.0 in Venal with 20 hostile russians trying to get me daily... As for people who lose their expensive fit nightmare in empire who cares its their fault for A) missioning in a place where people get scanned. B) not using an scout to check for lots of bs with sensor boosters fitted. As for you not earning much from lvl 4 mission running whose fault is that? Its not got anything to do with a thread discussing the Nightmare anyway, bar running the thread off course. Originally by: Vikarion Oh, for the love of all things good and nice, DO NOT use Tachyons! I don't know how many times I have to say this. Only use them until you get Mega Pulse II with Scorch. Much higher DPS, and you can reach out to 55 KM optimal with decent skills + another 10 KM fall off. with better skills you'll gain probably about 5KM to both. That's with 3 HS II and 2 Tracking enhancers in the lows, and makes it much easier to pop orbiting cruisers as well. Just make sure you have Hobgoblin IIs for the tiny scrambler frigates. I still don't get the fascination with Mega Pulse on a Nightmare sure it tracks good but I prefer Tachs for nearly every mission there is to run. The amount of time I save by being able to shove radio/microwave crystals in to my tachs and hit those bs/cruisers at 120km saves me tons of time having to ab into range with pulse. I guess you must get lots of kill missions with all the npcs within 40km range to make it worthwhile. Personnaly I just love popping every frig/cruiser at range then hitting the BS who have been slowboating to me with Amarr Navy Multifrequency crystals and watching them melt.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.27 16:51:00 - [24] Originally by: Helen Originally by: Zeba Geeze people you don't need all that exspensive stuff on your Nightmare you need it in your head so some enterprising mission ship hunter won't single you out for a nice little group suicide bs action. Not all of us mission in high sec, I officer fit mine and use it in 0.0. And yes it is worth it. Cripes, that thing would eat plexes like candy... In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Helen The Tetragrammaton Council	Posted - 2008.12.27 17:05:00 - [25] Originally by: Janu Hull Cripes, that thing would eat plexes like candy... Drone plexs? Probably yeah but I find a Ishtar more suitable for plexing purposes.
Petyr Baelich Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.12.27 18:35:00 - [26] MP are superior to faction Tachs for PVE on the Nightmare only in missions where the rats start out less than 30k from your ship and have 25k (or less) orbits AND they are comprised primarily of battleships. They are NEVER superior if you are using scorch ammo. MP have higher DPS but lower volley damage, making them inferior for the majority of missions which begin at range (70k+) and are comprised of frigates (which are killed by 1 shot), and cruisers/battlecruisers (which are killed by 1 volley, sometimes even 3 individual beams).
Letri Bimmet Gallente Estrale Frontiers BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.27 19:04:00 - [27] Nightmare is a awesome mission boat. I prefer tachs to pulses myself, just love them high damage wreckings. And I use a large booster, can pretty much premarun with that. Tho I really should fit a ab....thing is as fast as frozen snail
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.27 19:16:00 - [28] Originally by: Letri Bimmet Nightmare is a awesome mission boat. I prefer tachs to pulses myself, just love them high damage wreckings. And I use a large booster, can pretty much premarun with that. Tho I really should fit a ab....thing is as fast as frozen snail Hehe, with Tachs I would not bother to fit propulsion modules ^^
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys	Posted - 2008.12.27 19:36:00 - [29] Edited by: Dahak2150 on 27/12/2008 19:41:14 Edited by: Dahak2150 on 27/12/2008 19:37:09 Originally by: Vikarion Oh, for the love of all things good and nice, DO NOT use Tachyons! I don't know how many times I have to say this. Only use them until you get Mega Pulse II with Scorch. Much higher DPS, and you can reach out to 55 KM optimal with decent skills + another 10 KM fall off. with better skills you'll gain probably about 5KM to both. That's with 3 HS II and 2 Tracking enhancers in the lows, and makes it much easier to pop orbiting cruisers as well. Just make sure you have Hobgoblin IIs for the tiny scrambler frigates. Scorch is much more expensive than faction ammo. In my region Scorch is 900k. The rough equivalent in tachyons is Amarr Navy Gamma (cost: one million), which not only lasts ~400% longer, it has ~11% more DPS at the same range. This means you're paying 3.6 million for four Scorch crystals, which will last about the same time as one AM Gamma. That's a cost increase of 360%. How's that for an isk efficiency drop? Additionally, each shot from a tachyon is more cost effective than a shot from a megapulse, as tachs are based more on damage per shot instead of shots per second. Cap usage on the guns may go up 27%, but it's the Nightmare, it has lots and lots of cap to spare, and any pilot in the ship should have near or perfect cap skills anyway. Additionally, when an X-Large II booster is taken in to account, the difference in the total capacitor budget is only 6%. There are a very few missions where megapulses are a better choice than tachs, missions like Serpentis Extravaganza or Vengeance, where the player is warped to within a few kilometers of the enemy. Otherwise, Tachyons offer the ability to reach out and destroy enemies without the necessity of a propulsion mod or expensive T2 ammo.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.27 21:37:00 - [30] Confirming that Scorch Megapulse on a Navpoc are murderously efficient. But looking at the numbers, why would anyone not put tachs on a Nightmare?

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