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Sassinak
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Posted - 2004.07.23 08:43:00 -
[121]
 Originally by: Mon Palae
Miso:
Try this in-game example if you prefer.
Imagine you and two of your mates, George and Grace, are floating in 0.0 somewhere waiting for the next spawn to show.
Grace sends you an eve-mail asking for the XL Clarity Ward and 2 425 Proto Rails you found in the loot. You owe Grace so you agree and jettison the stuff so she can pick it up.
George sees the jet can appear and nabs what is in it before Grace gets it. You tell George that it is not his but meant for Grace. He replies sorry but as far as he is concerned it was just some trash lying about. He was just lucky to get it before Grace. If Grace wants it she can pay him the bargain (cuz she's a corpmate) price of 50 mil ISK to get the items.
Since you (Miso) did not use a secure can or go to station and trade items to Grace securely you would just shrug and let George get away with that? Since it is your considered opinion that anything floating in space is free to any who grab it you would consider George to be perectly within his rights to do this.
If I were a betting man my money is you'd raise holy hell screaming at George to hand the stuff back over.
I can sum that up in a few short words....
Tough **** Bub.
Its a harsh world CCP have created. And its Magnificent
CCP have explained the rules about jetissoning ore/modules enough times now (you do so at your own risk. Just like in RL eh?)
They provided a quick,safe,secure method of making a player to player transaction... Its knows as a "Trade Window"
Give it a whirl see what ya think......
Sass
Arcane Technologies |
Sassinak
|
Posted - 2004.07.23 08:43:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Mon Palae
Miso:
Try this in-game example if you prefer.
Imagine you and two of your mates, George and Grace, are floating in 0.0 somewhere waiting for the next spawn to show.
Grace sends you an eve-mail asking for the XL Clarity Ward and 2 425 Proto Rails you found in the loot. You owe Grace so you agree and jettison the stuff so she can pick it up.
George sees the jet can appear and nabs what is in it before Grace gets it. You tell George that it is not his but meant for Grace. He replies sorry but as far as he is concerned it was just some trash lying about. He was just lucky to get it before Grace. If Grace wants it she can pay him the bargain (cuz she's a corpmate) price of 50 mil ISK to get the items.
Since you (Miso) did not use a secure can or go to station and trade items to Grace securely you would just shrug and let George get away with that? Since it is your considered opinion that anything floating in space is free to any who grab it you would consider George to be perectly within his rights to do this.
If I were a betting man my money is you'd raise holy hell screaming at George to hand the stuff back over.
I can sum that up in a few short words....
Tough **** Bub.
Its a harsh world CCP have created. And its Magnificent
CCP have explained the rules about jetissoning ore/modules enough times now (you do so at your own risk. Just like in RL eh?)
They provided a quick,safe,secure method of making a player to player transaction... Its knows as a "Trade Window"
Give it a whirl see what ya think......
Sass
Arcane Technologies |
Beelzbub
|
Posted - 2004.07.23 11:40:00 -
[123]
Here's a novel idea for you anti-ore theives:
When someone steals your ore, set a negative standing with the person, personally or a neg. corp standing, make sure your scanner (radar, whatever) is set to display such, then retaliate at a later date. Sooner or later you'll, or a fellow corp member see that person in 0.4 or less.
You know it'd be great fun to tell the person you're podding that it's revenge for that 130 units of plag. he stole 6 months ago. 
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Beelzbub
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Posted - 2004.07.23 11:40:00 -
[124]
Here's a novel idea for you anti-ore theives:
When someone steals your ore, set a negative standing with the person, personally or a neg. corp standing, make sure your scanner (radar, whatever) is set to display such, then retaliate at a later date. Sooner or later you'll, or a fellow corp member see that person in 0.4 or less.
You know it'd be great fun to tell the person you're podding that it's revenge for that 130 units of plag. he stole 6 months ago.
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Cymru2000
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Posted - 2004.07.23 12:09:00 -
[125]
I love these threads about ore thieves, because people keep calling them thieves.
The fact is, to mine into a jet can you have to jettison the can. The answers right there people you JETTISON the can.
To Jettison: Informal. To discard (something) as unwanted or burdensome:
From dictionary.com
So apparently, you jet-miner people don't want the ore because you see it as "unwanted" and "Burdensome". If CCP really wanted to ***** down on ore "thieves" they would have password protected "I want this can to be here for-ever" buttons instead of JETTISON buttons.
Jeez, get a life, and stop strip mining newb areas and actually venture into proper space.
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Cymru2000
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Posted - 2004.07.23 12:09:00 -
[126]
I love these threads about ore thieves, because people keep calling them thieves.
The fact is, to mine into a jet can you have to jettison the can. The answers right there people you JETTISON the can.
To Jettison: Informal. To discard (something) as unwanted or burdensome:
From dictionary.com
So apparently, you jet-miner people don't want the ore because you see it as "unwanted" and "Burdensome". If CCP really wanted to ***** down on ore "thieves" they would have password protected "I want this can to be here for-ever" buttons instead of JETTISON buttons.
Jeez, get a life, and stop strip mining newb areas and actually venture into proper space.
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flummox
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Posted - 2004.07.23 14:35:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Cymru2000
I love these threads about ore thieves, because people keep calling them thieves.
The fact is, to mine into a jet can you have to jettison the can. The answers right there people you JETTISON the can.
To Jettison: Informal. To discard (something) as unwanted or burdensome:
From dictionary.com
So apparently, you jet-miner people don't want the ore because you see it as "unwanted" and "Burdensome". If CCP really wanted to ***** down on ore "thieves" they would have password protected "I want this can to be here for-ever" buttons instead of JETTISON buttons.
Jeez, get a life, and stop strip mining newb areas and actually venture into proper space.
the word has for more meaning than it's definition implies, sir. jettison is a term used to describe throwing (which implies some sort of thought/action process) something overboard on a ship; which refers to water vessels. sometimes, captains "had" to jettison stuff, even though that still "wanted" the item. a captain chooses to jettison his treasure or heavy cargo instead of sinking because some jerkass pirate put a hole in his hull or he ran into some unforseen trouble on his route. he may still have wanted it. which is the trick of the word. jettison merely implies that the owner of the item (yep! i said owner!) made a conscious decision to take the item off of his vessel. reasons for jettisoning vary. people have confused this with "throwing away" garbage or junk. that is not what the word implies. and, yes, in a world with lunatics and psychos who have very little moral upbringing, and a place where people twist the words of the Higher Power (CCP) to suit their needs, you run the risk of having it taken from you.
also, jettison means to eject if from the ship (usually actively moving) because you don't want it. it doesn't mean "place it in a cargo 10 meters from my ship and use it as a tool to do my work". think about it...
most people simply want thieves to admit they are doing something morally wrong to another person by benefitting from their time. i agree with the risk. and i don't biotch about getting ore stolen (it was one time and so long ago and BEFORE secure cans  ). what i biotch about is people hiding behind the stupid dogma of the "rules". have some respect and admit you are committing a crime...
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
flummox
|
Posted - 2004.07.23 14:35:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Cymru2000
I love these threads about ore thieves, because people keep calling them thieves.
The fact is, to mine into a jet can you have to jettison the can. The answers right there people you JETTISON the can.
To Jettison: Informal. To discard (something) as unwanted or burdensome:
From dictionary.com
So apparently, you jet-miner people don't want the ore because you see it as "unwanted" and "Burdensome". If CCP really wanted to ***** down on ore "thieves" they would have password protected "I want this can to be here for-ever" buttons instead of JETTISON buttons.
Jeez, get a life, and stop strip mining newb areas and actually venture into proper space.
the word has for more meaning than it's definition implies, sir. jettison is a term used to describe throwing (which implies some sort of thought/action process) something overboard on a ship; which refers to water vessels. sometimes, captains "had" to jettison stuff, even though that still "wanted" the item. a captain chooses to jettison his treasure or heavy cargo instead of sinking because some jerkass pirate put a hole in his hull or he ran into some unforseen trouble on his route. he may still have wanted it. which is the trick of the word. jettison merely implies that the owner of the item (yep! i said owner!) made a conscious decision to take the item off of his vessel. reasons for jettisoning vary. people have confused this with "throwing away" garbage or junk. that is not what the word implies. and, yes, in a world with lunatics and psychos who have very little moral upbringing, and a place where people twist the words of the Higher Power (CCP) to suit their needs, you run the risk of having it taken from you.
also, jettison means to eject if from the ship (usually actively moving) because you don't want it. it doesn't mean "place it in a cargo 10 meters from my ship and use it as a tool to do my work". think about it...
most people simply want thieves to admit they are doing something morally wrong to another person by benefitting from their time. i agree with the risk. and i don't biotch about getting ore stolen (it was one time and so long ago and BEFORE secure cans ). what i biotch about is people hiding behind the stupid dogma of the "rules". have some respect and admit you are committing a crime...
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.07.23 14:44:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Sassinak
Originally by: Mon Palae
Miso:
Try this in-game example if you prefer.
Imagine you and two of your mates, George and Grace, are floating in 0.0 somewhere waiting for the next spawn to show.
Grace sends you an eve-mail asking for the XL Clarity Ward and 2 425 Proto Rails you found in the loot. You owe Grace so you agree and jettison the stuff so she can pick it up.
George sees the jet can appear and nabs what is in it before Grace gets it. You tell George that it is not his but meant for Grace. He replies sorry but as far as he is concerned it was just some trash lying about. He was just lucky to get it before Grace. If Grace wants it she can pay him the bargain (cuz she's a corpmate) price of 50 mil ISK to get the items.
Since you (Miso) did not use a secure can or go to station and trade items to Grace securely you would just shrug and let George get away with that? Since it is your considered opinion that anything floating in space is free to any who grab it you would consider George to be perectly within his rights to do this.
If I were a betting man my money is you'd raise holy hell screaming at George to hand the stuff back over.
I can sum that up in a few short words....
Tough **** Bub.
Its a harsh world CCP have created. And its Magnificent
CCP have explained the rules about jetissoning ore/modules enough times now (you do so at your own risk. Just like in RL eh?)
They provided a quick,safe,secure method of making a player to player transaction... Its knows as a "Trade Window"
Agreed but you have deliberately dodged the question. Let me modify it a touch.
You, Lord Zap and Stavros are 30j from the nearest station hunting (in case something has changed for the sake of argument assume you, Lord Zap and Stavros are all in m0o (you are corpmates)).
Lord Zap asks Stavros if he can borrow some missiles as he is running low and doesn't want to drive 30j back to a station to restock. Stavros agrees, checks the map and sees no other ships within 10j besides the three of you, and jettisons 150 cruise missiles as he is not going to drive 30j for a secure trade window he feels is totally unnecessary.
You (Sassinak) see the jet can and grab the missiles. You claim to Stavros and Lord Zap that all of a sudden you just saw this can with missile in it that Stavros threw away and took it. You need the missiles too so you tell Lord Zap you are keeping them.
Now answer me how you (Sassinak) would expect Lord Zap and Stavros to react in that situation? Do you think "Tough **** Bub" will work with them in this case?
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.07.23 14:44:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Sassinak
Originally by: Mon Palae
Miso:
Try this in-game example if you prefer.
Imagine you and two of your mates, George and Grace, are floating in 0.0 somewhere waiting for the next spawn to show.
Grace sends you an eve-mail asking for the XL Clarity Ward and 2 425 Proto Rails you found in the loot. You owe Grace so you agree and jettison the stuff so she can pick it up.
George sees the jet can appear and nabs what is in it before Grace gets it. You tell George that it is not his but meant for Grace. He replies sorry but as far as he is concerned it was just some trash lying about. He was just lucky to get it before Grace. If Grace wants it she can pay him the bargain (cuz she's a corpmate) price of 50 mil ISK to get the items.
Since you (Miso) did not use a secure can or go to station and trade items to Grace securely you would just shrug and let George get away with that? Since it is your considered opinion that anything floating in space is free to any who grab it you would consider George to be perectly within his rights to do this.
If I were a betting man my money is you'd raise holy hell screaming at George to hand the stuff back over.
I can sum that up in a few short words....
Tough **** Bub.
Its a harsh world CCP have created. And its Magnificent
CCP have explained the rules about jetissoning ore/modules enough times now (you do so at your own risk. Just like in RL eh?)
They provided a quick,safe,secure method of making a player to player transaction... Its knows as a "Trade Window"
Agreed but you have deliberately dodged the question. Let me modify it a touch.
You, Lord Zap and Stavros are 30j from the nearest station hunting (in case something has changed for the sake of argument assume you, Lord Zap and Stavros are all in m0o (you are corpmates)).
Lord Zap asks Stavros if he can borrow some missiles as he is running low and doesn't want to drive 30j back to a station to restock. Stavros agrees, checks the map and sees no other ships within 10j besides the three of you, and jettisons 150 cruise missiles as he is not going to drive 30j for a secure trade window he feels is totally unnecessary.
You (Sassinak) see the jet can and grab the missiles. You claim to Stavros and Lord Zap that all of a sudden you just saw this can with missile in it that Stavros threw away and took it. You need the missiles too so you tell Lord Zap you are keeping them.
Now answer me how you (Sassinak) would expect Lord Zap and Stavros to react in that situation? Do you think "Tough **** Bub" will work with them in this case?
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Miso
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Posted - 2004.07.23 14:51:00 -
[131]
Mon, you dont know M0o. They'd******each other for 1 piece of hybird ammo
Seriously though, the analogy doesn't work as a means of justifying your points. Secure can or trade, otherwise run the risk of it being stolen. Its that simple.
--------------------------------------------
Dead
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Miso
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Posted - 2004.07.23 14:51:00 -
[132]
Mon, you dont know M0o. They'd******each other for 1 piece of hybird ammo
Seriously though, the analogy doesn't work as a means of justifying your points. Secure can or trade, otherwise run the risk of it being stolen. Its that simple.
--------------------------------------------
Dead
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.07.23 14:54:00 -
[133]
I must agree. Thats the most stupid analogy i've ever heard. gg.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.07.23 14:54:00 -
[134]
I must agree. Thats the most stupid analogy i've ever heard. gg.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.07.23 15:04:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Miso
Mon, you dont know M0o. They'd******each other for 1 piece of hybird ammo
Seriously though, the analogy doesn't work as a means of justifying your points. Secure can or trade, otherwise run the risk of it being stolen. Its that simple.
It works as an indication that jettisoning cargo does not paint a "Trash" sign across it that implies to everyone it is free goods for any to take at will. It shows that is it absolutely 100% possible that the person who dumps the cargo can still feel proprietary ownership of it despite it being off their ship. This notion that putting something in a jet can means the person who did it considers what is there as trash and has no concern for its fate is absurd and provably wrong. Hence ore thieves are thieves, not interstellar street sweepers and those they take from have cause to be upset.
As a game dynamic I could live with ore thieves as an interesting part of EVE if they couldn't hide behind ALTs and/or safely within NPC Corps. Essentially, they should have a risk/reward system like everyone else in EVE does. I don't like pirates blowing my ship up but they take a risk doing so and I can go back after them if I am of a mind to so all is fine on that count. Telling me to use Secure Cans to stop ore thieves is like telling me to stay out of 0.4 and lower space to avoid pirates. Avoidance is not the issue...ability to police ourselves and bring our own brand of retribution is.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.07.23 15:04:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Miso
Mon, you dont know M0o. They'd******each other for 1 piece of hybird ammo
Seriously though, the analogy doesn't work as a means of justifying your points. Secure can or trade, otherwise run the risk of it being stolen. Its that simple.
It works as an indication that jettisoning cargo does not paint a "Trash" sign across it that implies to everyone it is free goods for any to take at will. It shows that is it absolutely 100% possible that the person who dumps the cargo can still feel proprietary ownership of it despite it being off their ship. This notion that putting something in a jet can means the person who did it considers what is there as trash and has no concern for its fate is absurd and provably wrong. Hence ore thieves are thieves, not interstellar street sweepers and those they take from have cause to be upset.
As a game dynamic I could live with ore thieves as an interesting part of EVE if they couldn't hide behind ALTs and/or safely within NPC Corps. Essentially, they should have a risk/reward system like everyone else in EVE does. I don't like pirates blowing my ship up but they take a risk doing so and I can go back after them if I am of a mind to so all is fine on that count. Telling me to use Secure Cans to stop ore thieves is like telling me to stay out of 0.4 and lower space to avoid pirates. Avoidance is not the issue...ability to police ourselves and bring our own brand of retribution is.
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Sassinak
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Posted - 2004.07.23 15:28:00 -
[137]
Edited by: Sassinak on 23/07/2004 15:34:59
Ok I'll just pwn the argument then.
Its not thieving caus CCP said it isnt.
Jettisoning in eve means your discarding something, Caus CCP said so.
And since CCP are god.
Its reasonable to assume that what they say goes.
Everyone follow that? or shall I explain it again in stupid?
However. I can see the frustration with mining sometihng and having someone take it away from you caus your too lazy or too tight to buy a couple of Giant secure cans...
Mine in 0.4 sec and below.... You can blow the crap out of the thief then if you want.
High sec space is for the newbie players that have just started out. So they wont be mining into jet cans with 4 apocs...
They will be running to and fro in their little frigates.
I shall call you guys thieves and griefers as you are taking advantage of new players by mining out all their ore in the most important time of their Eve existance.
Basically suck it up.. Grow a set, work as a team, dont go afk (why the **** would you want to play a game while your not playin it anyway?!) Mine in lower sec space. Newbie space is what its meant for. Newbies.
Sass
Arcane Technologies |
Sassinak
|
Posted - 2004.07.23 15:28:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Sassinak on 23/07/2004 15:34:59
Ok I'll just pwn the argument then.
Its not thieving caus CCP said it isnt.
Jettisoning in eve means your discarding something, Caus CCP said so.
And since CCP are god.
Its reasonable to assume that what they say goes.
Everyone follow that? or shall I explain it again in stupid?
However. I can see the frustration with mining sometihng and having someone take it away from you caus your too lazy or too tight to buy a couple of Giant secure cans...
Mine in 0.4 sec and below.... You can blow the crap out of the thief then if you want.
High sec space is for the newbie players that have just started out. So they wont be mining into jet cans with 4 apocs...
They will be running to and fro in their little frigates.
I shall call you guys thieves and griefers as you are taking advantage of new players by mining out all their ore in the most important time of their Eve existance.
Basically suck it up.. Grow a set, work as a team, dont go afk (why the **** would you want to play a game while your not playin it anyway?!) Mine in lower sec space. Newbie space is what its meant for. Newbies.
Sass
Arcane Technologies |
Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.07.23 15:31:00 -
[139]
sass pls login or get on IRC kthx
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.07.23 15:31:00 -
[140]
sass pls login or get on IRC kthx
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.07.23 15:44:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Sassinak
Everyone follow that? or shall I explain it again in stupid?
Explain again in stupid please.
That CCP makes it what it is no one is arguing. Doesn't mean it can't be a stupid, poorly thought out design that players can gripe about.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.07.23 15:44:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Sassinak
Everyone follow that? or shall I explain it again in stupid?
Explain again in stupid please.
That CCP makes it what it is no one is arguing. Doesn't mean it can't be a stupid, poorly thought out design that players can gripe about.
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Sassinak
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Posted - 2004.07.23 15:55:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Mon Palae
Originally by: Sassinak
Everyone follow that? or shall I explain it again in stupid?
Explain again in stupid please.
That CCP makes it what it is no one is arguing. Doesn't mean it can't be a stupid, poorly thought out design that players can gripe about.
What is it you actually want from this? Not to be hassled by the "thieves" or to be able to punish them?
Caus you can punish them in 0.4<
Sass
Arcane Technologies |
Sassinak
|
Posted - 2004.07.23 15:55:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Mon Palae
Originally by: Sassinak
Everyone follow that? or shall I explain it again in stupid?
Explain again in stupid please.
That CCP makes it what it is no one is arguing. Doesn't mean it can't be a stupid, poorly thought out design that players can gripe about.
What is it you actually want from this? Not to be hassled by the "thieves" or to be able to punish them?
Caus you can punish them in 0.4<
Sass
Arcane Technologies |
Mon Palae
|
Posted - 2004.07.23 16:10:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Sassinak
What is it you actually want from this? Not to be hassled by the "thieves" or to be able to punish them?
Caus you can punish them in 0.4<
I want to be able to punish them. And it should come as no surprise that they never do their thing in 0.4< for the very reason that they can get shot. That is the really galling part fo it all. They use CONCORD to protect them, hide behind ALTs (usually) and stick in NPC Corps to utterly avoid any sort of retirbution or payback for what they do.
As for me always mining in 0.4< forget it. If I am trying to gather the ~7 mil trit I need for a battleship I see no reason why I should sit in an area where I have to worry about pirates attacking me and/or more heavy duty spawns. Mining 0.5 for trit only makes sense. With the bigger risks I will mine the more valuable ore.
I will say that AFK miners I have no tolerance for but that is a different issue.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.07.23 16:10:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Sassinak
What is it you actually want from this? Not to be hassled by the "thieves" or to be able to punish them?
Caus you can punish them in 0.4<
I want to be able to punish them. And it should come as no surprise that they never do their thing in 0.4< for the very reason that they can get shot. That is the really galling part fo it all. They use CONCORD to protect them, hide behind ALTs (usually) and stick in NPC Corps to utterly avoid any sort of retirbution or payback for what they do.
As for me always mining in 0.4< forget it. If I am trying to gather the ~7 mil trit I need for a battleship I see no reason why I should sit in an area where I have to worry about pirates attacking me and/or more heavy duty spawns. Mining 0.5 for trit only makes sense. With the bigger risks I will mine the more valuable ore.
I will say that AFK miners I have no tolerance for but that is a different issue.
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Kaleigh Doyle
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Posted - 2004.07.23 18:35:00 -
[147]
If the entire debate over alleged "ore thievery" is about the lack of balance between risk and reward on the side of the "thief", I find myself asking, is this the only risk miners encounter in higher sec space? Is the 'ore thief' a predator created by the environment to counter the large quanitity of people mining in high sec space?(Is the 'ore thief' merely a counter-balance?) Am i the only one who thinks '~7 mil trit' without any kind of fear whatsoever of external threat kinda unbalanced? (its ok if i am!  )
CCP has decided that a bad reputation is enough for 'ore thieves', and yet some people want more; They want them to suffer. 
On a bright side though, many pvpers might be excited by the prospect of miners being able to retaliate against these types...they may catch the pvp bug. I hear its hard to shake ...
Glamour Bunnies Entertainment Corporation
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Kaleigh Doyle
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Posted - 2004.07.23 18:35:00 -
[148]
If the entire debate over alleged "ore thievery" is about the lack of balance between risk and reward on the side of the "thief", I find myself asking, is this the only risk miners encounter in higher sec space? Is the 'ore thief' a predator created by the environment to counter the large quanitity of people mining in high sec space?(Is the 'ore thief' merely a counter-balance?) Am i the only one who thinks '~7 mil trit' without any kind of fear whatsoever of external threat kinda unbalanced? (its ok if i am! )
CCP has decided that a bad reputation is enough for 'ore thieves', and yet some people want more; They want them to suffer.
On a bright side though, many pvpers might be excited by the prospect of miners being able to retaliate against these types...they may catch the pvp bug. I hear its hard to shake ...
Glamour Bunnies Entertainment Corporation
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Omega Man
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Posted - 2004.07.23 18:53:00 -
[149]
what risks are miners meant to be taking in high sec space?
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Omega Man
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Posted - 2004.07.23 18:53:00 -
[150]
what risks are miners meant to be taking in high sec space?
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