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Missiles. A requiem of suckage.

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swisher Caldari Mentis Fidelis Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2009.01.03 11:25:00 - [1] originally going to be a reply to a "nighthawk sucks thread" made a new topic because it's more about missiles than the nighthawk. here's my argument. guns: 2 types, long range and short range in each of those, you get 3 sizes. so 6 possible fitting levels of guns for any gunboat. missiles: 2 types. long and short range in each of those, ccp laughs and says "here is a t2 version, get used to it" so you are stuck with either short range + insane grid, or long range, moderatley insane grid, and crap damage. let's take this time, old chap, to look at the slepnir's standard fit. normally it's a rack of 220 II's (to fit x-large booster, mwd, and cap booster with room to spare) will take 38% of the powergrid and 19.4% of the cpu with all level 5s. this deals a base damage of 528 with hail m. the nighthawk with a full rack of heavy launcher II's and t2 kinetic ammo takes up 64% grid and 36% of the cpu. notedly more percent than the slepnir and only 406 dps. with a rack of ham launcher IIs it takes 77% powergrid and 32.4% of the cpu. and deals 476 kinetic dps. if anyone brings out the old "missiles are completely different, they don't have tracking, if it's in range they hit" argument, bleh to you. if anything is moving faster than our explosion velocity regardless of transversal, we don't hit for full damage. if anything is smaller than our explosion radius, regardless of velocity, we don't hit for full damage. this arguably equals range and tracking nerfs, therefore why do we also get dps nerf? Originally by: Soporo A comparison of the Field Command ships, all races: Nighthawk/Cald CPU 555 Powergrid 710 <- wth? Sleipner/Mims CPU 475 Powergrid 1460 Astarte/Gallente CPU 440 Powergrid 1550 Absolution/Amarr CPU 400 Powergrid 1575 Now compare the t2 Battlecruisers: Drake/Caldari CPU 525 Powergrid 850 <- ... Myrm/Gall CPU 400 Powergrid 1175 Hurricane/Mim CPU 400 Powergrid 1350 Harby/Amarr CPU 375 Powergrid 1500
swisher Caldari Mentis Fidelis Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2009.01.03 11:31:00 - [2] ps. i want mah torps to have splash damage again \o/ !
Raniss	Posted - 2009.01.03 11:40:00 - [3] Edited by: Raniss on 03/01/2009 11:40:19 Originally by: swisher ps. i want mah torps to have splash damage again \o/ ! So thats why you start trolling your own thread!?!
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.03 11:44:00 - [4] Quote: if anyone brings out the old "missiles are completely different, they don't have tracking, if it's in range they hit" argument, bleh to you. I use this one as an argument against needing 3 different types of missile for each type. The rails are a mix of PG/CPU usage against damage and optimal. Missiles on the other hand are based on the missile, not the launcher. Its just different. And anyway, missile launchers use far less PG and similar CPU to the guns. Only difference is Caldari have ****e powergrid. Its just different, making it hard to compare, especially with people like you who yack on but are obviously using EFT theoretical arguments.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.03 11:45:00 - [5] ...hail dps...optimal? 1.4km? lol ...penalties with Hail M on a Sleip that some ppl active tank...lol ...HML faction range dps + optimal of those...ouch ...explosion velocity bonus on NH + faction HMLs...above range...speed/sig tank? ouch... wth r u ppl thinking? r u smacking the forums cause the NH is that close to be the uber wtfpwn machine but it's a tad off? Why so many whine threads out of the blue? Arguments like "why can't I solo in my NH" are pathetic imho... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2009.01.03 11:53:00 - [6] Stop whining. CCP changed missiles so you can now deal good damage to 15km/s vagabonds and 25km/s interceptors. Oh yea - 40km/s panther will also get almost full damage. So what they dont exist anymore? ;p
Esamir	Posted - 2009.01.03 11:55:00 - [7] It's always struck me as strange that HAML and Siege use more grid than their longrange counterparts (Heavy and cruise). In all other weapon types, the short-range, high-dmg weapons use less: Rockets use less than Standards Blaster uses less than equivalent rail Pulse uses less than equivalent beam ACs use less than equivalent arty hmmm
Shate Def The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus	Posted - 2009.01.03 12:32:00 - [8] u can now speedtank missiles (turrets for ages) without needing to reach ridiculous speeds. there has to be some counter to missiles in someway, and it's acutally ok now. u still hit but not for full dmg, exactly like other weapon systems to. stop whining about how it WAS.
Cade Morrigan Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.03 15:49:00 - [9] Originally by: Shate Def u can now speedtank missiles (turrets for ages) without needing to reach ridiculous speeds. there has to be some counter to missiles in someway, and it's acutally ok now. u still hit but not for full dmg, exactly like other weapon systems to. stop whining about how it WAS. Drive straight at (or away from) a turret ship at 500m/s and see how much your incoming damage is reduced. Now drive straight at (or away from) a missile ship at 500m/s and see how much your incoming damage is reduced. They are most definitely not the same.
Furb Killer Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:03:00 - [10] Always handy to compare to the least PG intensive guns. Now compare it if that sleip fits arties. --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Amira Shadowsong Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:06:00 - [11] Missiles always hit and torps are very good actually. I don't see a problem.
Schylok	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:48:00 - [12] Originally by: Furb Killer Always handy to compare to the least PG intensive guns. Now compare it if that sleip fits arties. Ok, let's do that...make sure to also use the least PG intensive launchers on the NH too...oh wait, it doesn't matter which you use, the NH is still screwed.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Schylok Originally by: Furb Killer Always handy to compare to the least PG intensive guns. Now compare it if that sleip fits arties. Ok, let's do that...make sure to also use the least PG intensive launchers on the NH too...oh wait, it doesn't matter which you use, the NH is still screwed. assaults fit pretty well (assault missile launcher - smallest cruiser sized weapon using small missiles)
Cade Morrigan Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.03 17:30:00 - [14] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Schylok Originally by: Furb Killer Always handy to compare to the least PG intensive guns. Now compare it if that sleip fits arties. Ok, let's do that...make sure to also use the least PG intensive launchers on the NH too...oh wait, it doesn't matter which you use, the NH is still screwed. assaults fit pretty well (assault missile launcher - smallest cruiser sized weapon using small missiles) Hm, that's a good point. Now put the HAMs directly between the AML and the HML for grid reqs and we've got equity. I'm not really advocating this, just showing you the error in your pulling the "AML" card :D
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2009.01.03 17:51:00 - [15] Its not AML card. it is straight response to obvious lie. "Doesnt matter what launchers you fit Nh is screwed". And i shown that there are launchers that will fit and leave you witl lots of grid/cpu spare. And AML being useless? Thats different story (they are as useful as quad medium beam lasers for amarr - anyone knows this turret?)
echohead	Posted - 2009.01.03 18:16:00 - [16] If missile launchers were not that good then 80% of all mission runners wouldn't be grinding out missions in missile boats. The way I see it is that missiles are just easier to use, with lower damage. Whats wrong with that? "if anyone brings out the old "missiles are completely different, they don't have tracking, if it's in range they hit" argument, bleh to you." Thats not fair to exclude a perfectly viable argument. I use guns and my missile using corpmates do seem to have a way easier time hitting targets than I do.
Cade Morrigan Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.03 18:30:00 - [17] Edited by: Cade Morrigan on 03/01/2009 18:30:35 @Deva Blackfire Yeah but would you fit those lasers? Would a Nighthawk pilot fit AMLs? Is it reasonable to expect players to use those low end cruiser weapons on command ships?
Darkstar Deceiver	Posted - 2009.01.03 18:33:00 - [18] Edited by: Darkstar Deceiver on 03/01/2009 18:33:23 Originally by: swisher this deals a base damage of 528 with hail m. This is where your entire post went wrong. No one uses hail. It sucks. You can't base your DPS count off an ammo that will miss half the time on a good day.
Cade Morrigan Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.03 18:36:00 - [19] Originally by: echohead If missile launchers were not that good then 80% of all mission runners wouldn't be grinding out missions in missile boats. The way I see it is that missiles are just easier to use, with lower damage. Whats wrong with that? "if anyone brings out the old "missiles are completely different, they don't have tracking, if it's in range they hit" argument, bleh to you." Thats not fair to exclude a perfectly viable argument. I use guns and my missile using corpmates do seem to have a way easier time hitting targets than I do. He was calling it a non-argument because missile damage is now greatly affected by not only target size, but the target's speed as well, much like tracking for guns except angular velocity doesn't play into it.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2009.01.03 18:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Cade Morrigan Edited by: Cade Morrigan on 03/01/2009 18:30:35 @Deva Blackfire Yeah but would you fit those lasers? Would a Nighthawk pilot fit AMLs? Is it reasonable to expect players to use those low end cruiser weapons on command ships? Actually i was using em pre-t2 ammo. With scorch ammo there is no need to.
Cade Morrigan Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.03 18:48:00 - [21] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Cade Morrigan Edited by: Cade Morrigan on 03/01/2009 18:30:35 @Deva Blackfire Yeah but would you fit those lasers? Would a Nighthawk pilot fit AMLs? Is it reasonable to expect players to use those low end cruiser weapons on command ships? Actually i was using em pre-t2 ammo. With scorch ammo there is no need to. On an Absolution?
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2009.01.03 19:04:00 - [22] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/01/2009 19:04:26 Originally by: Cade Morrigan Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Cade Morrigan Edited by: Cade Morrigan on 03/01/2009 18:30:35 @Deva Blackfire Yeah but would you fit those lasers? Would a Nighthawk pilot fit AMLs? Is it reasonable to expect players to use those low end cruiser weapons on command ships? Actually i was using em pre-t2 ammo. With scorch ammo there is no need to. On an Absolution? oops :) zealot EDIT: but yeh i agree NH needs grid help.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.01.03 19:42:00 - [23] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Its not AML card. it is straight response to obvious lie. "Doesnt matter what launchers you fit Nh is screwed". And i shown that there are launchers that will fit and leave you witl lots of grid/cpu spare. And AML being useless? Thats different story (they are as useful as quad medium beam lasers for amarr - anyone knows this turret?) I don't know how useful Quad Medium Beams are, but AMLs are an effective weapon for the Caracal and Cerberus. But an AML Nighthawk doesn't get the range bonuses of Caracal or Cerb, and its explosion velocity bonus only applies to HMs.
Aerin Cloudfayr the evil ones Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.01.03 22:43:00 - [24] Edited by: Aerin Cloudfayr on 03/01/2009 22:45:34 Quad Medium beams are useless, they're fun for rapid fire circus-shows. Probably far from topic's flow, but worth note: On another note - Missles love Sig Radii. I'd like to point out that each T2 ship is easily beaten by its own racial damage type, and that the Passive tanking trend with LSEIIs is leading towards this after a fashion. It's becoming a trend that lends its own weakness - torps will hit for a good % more damage on these styled ships than others; this DPS being marginally enough to break that ship-sizes' shield recharge rate. - These ships are rarely AB/MWD'd, so speed-tank (of any form or flavour) is not to be expected. This is a just thoery, but can someone give me a practical run-down on this? Cheers. - Edit; Also on another point, your max damage is stupidly good, there's a percentage nerf on situational circumstances that balances this out. Example; Abaddon; 8x Tachy IIs firing Gleam. 1100m Sig radius. 2500+ volley damage from a raven through resistances.
Comrade Bliss Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.04 00:04:00 - [25] Edited by: Comrade Bliss on 04/01/2009 00:10:21 I say the worst thing about missiles compared to guns would be that when you finally have trained up for T2 equipment you find out that the fury missiles increase your sig to insane proprtions combined with rigs and some shield extenders.... Looking at guns you get a dmg boost alreadt by fitting the T2 gun and even more with the T2 ammo. Some T2 ammo for guns have downsides too like T2 Hail, but my argument is that you don't have to fit the T2 ammo to get some of the dmg boost.... Just an example: Drake Without rigs sig. rad 520.22 With Rigs. sig. rad 586.23 Two above with maxed out skills. With rigs with my own skills 642.79 sig. rad Lows X2 Shield Power relay II X2 Ballistic Control System II Meds X3 Large Shield Extender II X2 Shield reharger II X1 Invulnerbility Field II Highs 7X Heavy Missile LaunchersII Rigs 1X Anti EM screen reinforcer II 2X Core defence Field PurgerII And thats with the awsesome 306 dps wow caldari really are the best.... NOT Edit: Bad spelling Life is a grave...Dig it...
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2009.01.04 00:56:00 - [26] [Drake, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile [empty high slot] Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 ------------- total 561dps (468 if non-kinetic ammo) with rage terrors 613 (510 non-kinetic ammo) yeah, weak DPS. And yes it works (tested multiple times - its insanely good HAC bait). Problem is with nighthawk - you cant even HOPE to get similiar results. If you put 6x heavy assaults + mwd there is no place left for passive tank (nor active). You can stack RCUs to fit mids with tank, then you dont have damage drake deals (no bcus). So yeh - NH is crap.
OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2009.01.04 01:37:00 - [27] ill say this man torps suck so fraken bad i parked my raven and wonted to shot someone at ccp.. but... it did get me into rail gun ships and i like them.. they realy did fup the torps.. they are soppost to be long rang spread damage like the old days.. you cant even use them now! your DEAD solo if you try.
Rothgar Detris	Posted - 2009.01.04 02:27:00 - [28] Quote: Just an example: Drake Without rigs sig. rad 520.22 With Rigs. sig. rad 586.23 Two above with maxed out skills. With rigs with my own skills 642.79 sig. rad Lows X2 Shield Power relay II X2 Ballistic Control System II Meds X3 Large Shield Extender II X2 Shield reharger II X1 Invulnerbility Field II Highs 7X Heavy Missile LaunchersII Rigs 1X Anti EM screen reinforcer II 2X Core defence Field PurgerII And thats with the awsesome 306 dps wow caldari really are the best.... NOT Bliss, there are three things wrong with this setup: 1.Too Many Shield Extenders- Shield extenders add a LOT to your SigRadius. You should try using only 2. 2.No t2 CDFP's- CDFP's also increase SigRadius. This is especially true for t2 variants. 3 x CDFP I actually has much less increase than your 2 x CDFP II's, not to mention sosting a WHOLE lot less. 3.Not Enough Resists- 1 Invuln Field II, even with the anti-EM rig, is definitely not enough shield defence against anything other than lvl 2 frigs (maybe). You want the highest possible resists, so your regen rate can handle the rest. My setup (Drake, mission/ratting) Highs: 7 x Heavy Missile Launcher II (Cal. Navy Scourge) Mids: 2 x LSE II's 2 x Invul. Field II's 1 x Photon Scatter II 1 x PWNAGE Target Painter Lows: DCU II 2 x BCU II PDS II Sig Radius: 418m I specifically aimed this more for DPS than total tank. The high resists (79/87/83/72) means I can concentrate on TPing and destoying targets, and not having to worry about my tank. This has a DPS of about 500, And I haven't maxed out my skills yet (Have 3 mid-lvl HM implants, mid lvl Shiels recharge and Cap rechage). Whole thing is cap stable at 60%.
SirMoric Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.04 02:31:00 - [29] We win some, and we loose some. That's the good thing about EVE, we may not have the best Field Command Ship, but we do have the best ECM. If we want to use a Field Command Ship, train for one of the others. We may have what people consider the ultimate weapon, the missile... odly enough you can kill a missile using smartbombs? The missile is the perfect PvE weapon, again, we win some, and we loose some. The missile has it's drawbacks in PvP, sure you can hit a fast vessel.... but not hard enough to make people want to train for them, just state they're overpowered. rgds
Patri Andari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer	Posted - 2009.01.04 02:37:00 - [30] Originally by: Rothgar Detris 2.No t2 CDFP's- CDFP's also increase SigRadius. This is especially true for t2 variants. 3 x CDFP I actually has much less increase than your 2 x CDFP II's, not to mention sosting a WHOLE lot less. Actually CDFP I and CDFP II have the same drawback. 10%. So the only detriment added by using CDFP II is the hit to the wallet. Patri A fool usually thinks he is a genius

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