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Getting Ganked in Eve Versus Getting Robbed in Real Life

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Delhaven Uncle Enzo's Cosa Nostra Pizza 3	Posted - 2012.04.15 17:16:00 - [1] - Quote I've been trying to figure out what specifically it is about suicide ganking that bothers me so much. Then I started thinking about it in terms of real life crime and punishment. And what I came up with is that suicide ganking is basically like being robbed on the street at knifepoint. In both cases someone is going about their daily business, when somebody else unexpected does something illegal. For the purposes of this post, the person being attacked will be referred to as the "Victim", the ganker will be referred to as the "Attacker", and CONCORD will also be known as the "Authorities". (A) Right now in Eve, the response of the Authorities is the real life equivalent of catching the Attacker within seconds, but then just taking away the knife, letting them keep the money, and allowing them walk away while the Authorities say: "We'll be watching you for the next ten minutes. But then you're free to rob the next guy. We'll see you then." So, that leaves us with what can be done to bring punishments in Eve a little closer to real life. A couple of simple ideas: 1. Financial penalties: the Attacker pays back the Victim for the value of the assets lost. If the offender doesn't have that much, their income will be garnished (at say, 50%) and the proceeds will go the Victim until the value is paid back. Anything entering the Attacker's wallet will be fair game for seizure; or 2. Something equivalent to jail: CONCORD will actively hunt any ships flown by the Attacker for a period of time (say, 48 hours). This will force the Attacker to stay docked up (in jail) or flee justice (to low-sec of null) for that time period; and/or 3. Boost the CPU and power grid of all dedicated mining vessels, to allow them to fit sufficient tank to survive an attack long enough for the Authorities to arrive. Since the boosting of Destroyers and the adding of Tier 3 Battlecruisers is like allowing Attackers to carry an AK-47 instead of a knife, it's only fair that Victims be allowed to have the choice to wear body armor instead of just the current knee and elbow pads. (B) In real life, the problem with crime is that the Attackers aren't always caught. You could get robbed and file a police report. But the odds are, for a small crime it isn't likely that the robber will actually get caught by the Authorities. This isn't the case with Eve. CONCORD knows who everyone is. That's what PLEX are - a registration for the tracking of every pilot while they're within the jurisdiction of CONCORD (high-sec). If you want to make Eve more like real life, put a percentage on whether or not CONCORD will show up at all, based on the security status of the system (1 = 100%, 0.8 = 80%, 0.5 = 50%, etc.), instead of the current system where they always show up, but it can take more time. If they do show up, there has to be some truly painful consequences to the Attacker. If not, it sucks to be the Victim. This is also equivalent to going to the seedier parts of town because there's less competition and better potential to make money, but you're taking a chance in doing so. (C) I don't have problem with suicide ganking being part of the game, as there is a real life equivalent. But what bothers me is the lack of real consequence. A drop in security standings is like having a criminal record, so that should be kept. Removing insurance from suicide ganking was just common sense. It was like an Attacker going to an insurance company and saying: GÇ£The Authorities took away my knife when I robbed someone. They let me keep the money, but you need to cut me a cheque anyway so I can buy another knife to rob the next guy.GÇ¥ What's needed is a real deterrent, like the threat of jail time in real life, to make Attackers have to think carefully about the consequences of their actions, plus the chance to just maybe get away with it entirely.
Delhaven Uncle Enzo's Cosa Nostra Pizza 3	Posted - 2012.04.15 17:16:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved for clarifications.
Tarryn Nightstorm Hellstar Towing and Recovery 352	Posted - 2012.04.15 17:45:00 - [3] - Quote Video game informed by non-consensual PvP =/= real life crime, nor yet is there a legitimate parallel between the two. 1/10. Next! In irae, veritas.
Delhaven Uncle Enzo's Cosa Nostra Pizza 3	Posted - 2012.04.15 17:48:00 - [4] - Quote Tarryn Nightstorm wrote: Video game informed by non-consensual PvP =/= real life crime, nor yet is there a legitimate parallel between the two. 1/10. Next! Why does Concord blow people up now if they don't think it's a crime?
Jake Warbird Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 344	Posted - 2012.04.15 17:49:00 - [5] - Quote I thought they were just pixels.
Herr Wilkus Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service 302	Posted - 2012.04.15 18:02:00 - [6] - Quote CCP nerfs gankers three times in a single month. Carebears just keep on crying. Everything normal, I can see.
Katja Faith Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 32	Posted - 2012.04.15 18:19:00 - [7] - Quote tl;dr Pixels on a screen. Grow the **** up.
Tarryn Nightstorm Hellstar Towing and Recovery 352	Posted - 2012.04.15 18:31:00 - [8] - Quote Delhaven wrote: Tarryn Nightstorm wrote: Video game informed by non-consensual PvP =/= real life crime, nor yet is there a legitimate parallel between the two. 1/10. Next! Why does Concord blow people up now if they don't think it's a crime? ^^I don't have enough hands to give this the face-palm it deserves.^^ 1/10, please un-install the client naow, kthxbai. In irae, veritas.
Eryn Velasquez Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:06:00 - [9] - Quote Herr Wilkus wrote: CCP nerfs gankers three times in a single month. Carebears just keep on crying. Everything normal, I can see. You forgot to thank CCP for giving you all the tools before. The buff on destroyers, the T3s - now it was just the time to do something good to the victims. Suicide gankers - Silly griefing kiddies, annoying like dog poop under my shoes
Jake Warbird Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 359	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:22:00 - [10] - Quote I once got ganked in the forums. There was no concord either. Those ******* griefers!! ragefist
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club 9	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:22:00 - [11] - Quote Delhaven wrote: Why does Concord blow people up now if they don't think it's a crime? Exactly. Concord already considers suicide ganking to be a crime. We are treated as criminals for an indefinite time period once our sec. status falls below a certain point. A suicide ganker grinding sec. status back up is the equivalent of paying one's debts to society. Have you never heard of a "chain gang?" That said, your biggest mistake is comparing the reality portrayed in EVE to that we have seen in real life at any given time. Do you see Apple literally declaring government sanctioned war on Microsoft and raiding their HQ with tanks? There are a lot of aspects of EVE law that do not match up with our real life counterparts. Systems of law can be arranged in an almost infinite variety, so you need to defend your arguments on their merits alone rather than making comparisons to what you feel are real life equivalents.
Jake Warbird Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 364	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:25:00 - [12] - Quote Shai,love your work,sir.... 07
Delhaven Uncle Enzo's Cosa Nostra Pizza 3	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:31:00 - [13] - Quote Jake Warbird wrote: Shai,love your work,sir.... 07 Agreed. Shai 'Hulud wrote: Delhaven wrote: Why does Concord blow people up now if they don't think it's a crime? Exactly. Concord already considers suicide ganking to be a crime. We are treated as criminals for an indefinite time period once our sec. status falls below a certain point. A suicide ganker grinding sec. status back up is the equivalent of paying one's debts to society. Have you never heard of a "chain gang?" That said, your biggest mistake is comparing the reality portrayed in EVE to that we have seen in real life at any given time. Do you see Apple literally declaring government sanctioned war on Microsoft and raiding their HQ with tanks? There are a lot of aspects of EVE law that do not match up with our real life counterparts. Systems of law can be arranged in an almost infinite variety, so you need to defend your arguments on their merits alone rather than making comparisons to what you feel are real life equivalents. Thank you for an actual response. It's appreciated. I hadn't thought about the chain gang, but it makes sense. My question: is the current security status system enough of a deterrent? Is the chain gang enough work for people to factor it into their decisions? Fair point about Apple. But from a broader point, does the punishment fit the crime? Is losing a million ISK worth of destroyers a good enough consequence for blowing up a 350M ISK Hulk in space that is supposedly under the rule of law? A broader statement: My point for posting this isn't to start another Carebear versus PvP arguement. There are lots and lots of those out there already. I am coming at this from one perspective, but again, I don't have a problem with suicide ganking. I have a problem with the way CONCORD works because it doesn't make any sense. What I'm looking for is some real feedback on the proposed system. Why it would work, or why it wouldn't. How it could be modified to make it better. Etc. I've imbedded the robbery metaphor because I figured it would make things easier to visualize. I could easily be convinced that CONCORD and system security should be eliminated entirely. That would make a lot more sense than the current system and would put everyone on equal footing.
Jake Warbird Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 365	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:36:00 - [14] - Quote Well to be fair,we are in a universe where CCP decides the rules. I'm guessing it not very easy to listen to thousands of voices all at once. Can't please everyone and all that. Hopefully you will find the answer you are looking for.
Cannibal Kane Praetorian Cannibals 332	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:37:00 - [15] - Quote BAH... wanted to say something.... just not worth the effort so it got deleted. I'm not a Pirate, I'm a Terrorist. The Crazy African
Delhaven Uncle Enzo's Cosa Nostra Pizza 3	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:50:00 - [16] - Quote Jake Warbird wrote: Well to be fair,we are in a universe where CCP decides the rules. I'm guessing it not very easy to listen to thousands of voices all at once. Can't please everyone and all that. Hopefully you will find the answer you are looking for. Ideally, CCP would weight in on this and give some of their ideas on the philosophy behind CONCORD. If CCP doesn't give a crap about it, then that would at least be an answer. In an ideal, happy world it would give one side or the other (Carebears or PvP folks) something to point the other side to, so people will just shut up about it all.
Kazacy BACKFIRE Squad S O L A R I S 16	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:50:00 - [17] - Quote to the OP: are you sure this is not another whine for nerf suicide gankers? also your corp name seems to get along pretty well with this
Delhaven Uncle Enzo's Cosa Nostra Pizza 3	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:51:00 - [18] - Quote Kazacy wrote: to the OP: are you sure this is not another whine for nerf suicide gankers? also your corp name seems to get along pretty well with this I am absolutely biased, and I'll be the first to admit it. My point is to try and see things from the other side without people just spouting off the usual crap.
Kazacy BACKFIRE Squad S O L A R I S 16	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:57:00 - [19] - Quote Delhaven wrote: Kazacy wrote: to the OP: are you sure this is not another whine for nerf suicide gankers? also your corp name seems to get along pretty well with this I am absolutely biased, and I'll be the first to admit it. My point is to try and see things from the other side without people just spouting off the usual crap. ok; the point is this is a game and personally i want to have fun that's all. sometimes my fun seems to angry the other ppl but that's fine this is my fun; after all and the most important this is a game in the end and we play with some imaginary space pixels.
Herping yourDerp Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 487	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:58:00 - [20] - Quote Herr Wilkus wrote: CCP nerfs gankers three times in a single month. Carebears just keep on crying. Everything normal, I can see. your just mad that your exploit was ruled an exploit... you couldn't possibly think it wasn't but still did it anyway. all they need now is a buff to t2 industrial and exhumer EHP so that it takes more the 2 destroyers to suicide them. suicide ganking should be zomg this idiot has 10 plex in his drake or holy crap freighter with 100 faction cruisers in it or lol shinies on mission ship. it shouldn't be im bored lets gank a miner for next to nothing and no, i have never been suicide ganked. its just a stupid mechanic that for a few mil you can kill a hulk loot it and possibly make isk off the deal.
Kazacy BACKFIRE Squad S O L A R I S 17	Posted - 2012.04.15 20:04:00 - [21] - Quote Herping yourDerp wrote: and no, i have never been suicide ganked. its just a stupid mechanic that for a few mil you can kill a hulk loot it and possibly make isk off the deal. tell this to a taliban when shoot a very expensive (training cost and so on) american soldier with a cheap ak-47; maybe they should need to buy expensive gear before shoot americans? imo it's logical to try to inflict maximum damage with minimum cost.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club 12	Posted - 2012.04.15 20:09:00 - [22] - Quote Herping yourDerp wrote: all they need now is a buff to t2 industrial and exhumer EHP so that it takes more the 2 destroyers to suicide them. You have obviously never played with a Mastodon in EFT...
Herping yourDerp Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 487	Posted - 2012.04.15 20:11:00 - [23] - Quote I too, use real life examples in video games. this isn't real life get over it, balance >>>>>>> realism. t2 industrial and mining ships... as well as probably black ops and numerous other t2 ships should get an EHP boost. maximum damage and minimum cost does make sense, except its the equivalent of a blade of grass stopping a tank 100 times a day...
Kazacy BACKFIRE Squad S O L A R I S 17	Posted - 2012.04.15 20:17:00 - [24] - Quote Herping yourDerp wrote: I too, use real life examples in video games. this isn't real life get over it, balance >>>>>>> realism. t2 industrial and mining ships... as well as probably black ops and numerous other t2 ships should get an EHP boost. maximum damage and minimum cost does make sense, except its the equivalent of a blade of grass stopping a tank 100 times a day... you do realize if you actually pay attention and stay aligned you are practically invulnerable in any mining ship in hisec? the tank it's not the problem here, maybe the brain or lack of him. P.S. or maybe ppl are too lazy and like to play AFK mining and they deserve this.
Kale Eledar Mining and Industrial Services The Irukandji 23	Posted - 2012.04.15 20:32:00 - [25] - Quote Liang has an interesting blog post regarding this sort of thing, and it has a link to an article that has a differing viewpoint. http://liangnuren.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/social-contracts/ The Irukandji is recruiting PVP pilots! APPLY NAO. You won't regret it. See our info at : -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=70811&find=unread
lanyaie 121	Posted - 2012.04.15 20:54:00 - [26] - Quote Cause in reallife there are 15km long buttplugs that float around in space and can transport other vechicles piloted by forever living "capsuleers" Stop comparing eve to reallife dammit if eve was like rl I'd be in jail in both of them. I dont post often, but when I do i'm probably trolling you
Delhaven Uncle Enzo's Cosa Nostra Pizza 4	Posted - 2012.04.15 21:09:00 - [27] - Quote Kale Eledar wrote: Liang has an interesting blog post regarding this sort of thing, and it has a link to an article that has a differing viewpoint. http://liangnuren.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/social-contracts/ Very interesting... thank you for pointing that out. I'll have to digest that. Mental note: must re-watch "As Good As It Gets" and listen to Jack Nicholson before posting next time: "People who talk in metaphors oughta shampoo my crotch. "
Delhaven Uncle Enzo's Cosa Nostra Pizza 5	Posted - 2012.04.15 21:37:00 - [28] - Quote Herping yourDerp wrote: and no, i have never been suicide ganked. its just a stupid mechanic that for a few mil you can kill a hulk loot it and possibly make isk off the deal. I have been suicide ganked, and to me it's just the cost of doing business. As long as I come out ahead in the long run I'm happy, and anything else is just a challenge or a setback. The old "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" still applies. I still think CONCORD still sucks at it's job though. Kazacy wrote: tell this to a taliban when shoot a very expensive (training cost and so on) american soldier with a cheap ak-47; maybe they should need to buy expensive gear before shoot americans? imo it's logical to try to inflict maximum damage with minimum cost. Interesting point, but I'd think that would be a case of war between nations (or corps/alliances) or a civil war (or parts of null) as opposed to crime. The wardec and faction warfare systems are supposed to take care of those. If a declared war happens though, you're absolutely right. Herping yourDerp wrote: I too, use real life examples in video games. this isn't real life get over it, balance >>>>>>> realism. I could just as easily have used an example from another game as opposed to real life, but Eve is unique enough that I can't think of any.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance 72	Posted - 2012.04.15 22:10:00 - [29] - Quote I spent a lof time thinking about what it was in your post that bothered me. This is it: in real life a ganker has a fairly high percentage of failure unlike EVE where there is almost 100% chance of success if you do it right along with the consequences of your action.. (success is measured by meeting a goal despite the law of the eve universe that there are consequences for your actions). In real life, when a criminal is ID'ed he doesn't have the luxury of trying to change the universal law of the universe by complaining on a forum; the police are after him and he knows it.. it serves no purpose to complain about it. Understand that this a game is essential. it's supposed to be space where witnesses more than likely can't id you.. but concord can.. that said, concord has 100% chance of ID'ing anyone in their space and tracking them due to some overwhelming transponder markers. They will get you..and finding a way to "get a way with it" (avoiding consequences) breaks the EULA. Instead of trying to mold EVE in a vision you have you should find ways to work with what exists and learn to live in the game universe. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG]
Eryn Velasquez Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2012.04.15 22:43:00 - [30] - Quote All those discussions about "risk" are useless, when you're caught everytime. Why not change to a real risky system, depending on the sec-status of the systems? The chance to get caught by CONCORD in a 1.0 System would be near 90%, in a 0.9 system near 75%, 0.8 would be 50, then 40, 30 and 20 % for 0.7, 0.6 and 0.5. This means, the chance CONCORD arrives at the crimescene in time gets lower, the lower the sec-status of the system is. So, the ganker has a chance to survive. But, in case he gets caught, he has to pay the loss of the victim. That would be a real risk. Suicide gankers - Silly griefing kiddies, annoying like dog poop under my shoes

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