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CCP will you PLEASE start selling ISK already ! ! !

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.06 17:18:00 - [61] Edited by: War Fairy on 06/01/2009 17:27:37 Originally by: Vigilant Kill the source, that would be the macro miners they would have A LOT less isk to sell. The buyer is the source. The sellers are just reacting to demand. They didn't create it. You have to get rid of the buyer which is immpossible.
B1FF	Posted - 2009.01.06 17:20:00 - [62] Quote: This still prevents them from pasting in the pretty gold links ("don't click the link!" - "I can't help it, its sooooo pretty") and means it'll largely get ignored. Yeah cause isk buyers don't know how to copy and paste. Lack of a clickable link is not going to stop buyers.
CyberGh0st Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.06 17:33:00 - [63] The only good way to fix ISK sellers ( ad macroers ) is to perma ban the buyers. And NO I dont wat CCP to open an ITEM or ISK mall FFS ! And the ISK spam is not so bad atm, at least not for my alt in the n00bcorp, I see like 1 or 2 isk sellers a day, an easy "block" takes care of business, it used to be alot worse. Cyberwiz aka CyberGh0st aka Mentakh Active @ EvE Online Favorites : DAoC-SI/SWG Pre CU-NGE/Ryzom Retired @ WoW/LOTRO/WAR/Planetside/Entropia/UO/Lineage/GW/EQ/Jumpgate/Dofus/AoC
CyberGh0st Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.06 17:34:00 - [64] Originally by: War Fairy Edited by: War Fairy on 06/01/2009 17:27:37 Originally by: Vigilant Kill the source, that would be the macro miners they would have A LOT less isk to sell. The buyer is the source. The sellers are just reacting to demand. They didn't create it. You have to get rid of the buyer which is immpossible. Just ban the buyers ... Cyberwiz aka CyberGh0st aka Mentakh Active @ EvE Online Favorites : DAoC-SI/SWG Pre CU-NGE/Ryzom Retired @ WoW/LOTRO/WAR/Planetside/Entropia/UO/Lineage/GW/EQ/Jumpgate/Dofus/AoC
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.06 17:36:00 - [65] Originally by: CyberGh0st Originally by: War Fairy Edited by: War Fairy on 06/01/2009 17:27:37 Originally by: Vigilant Kill the source, that would be the macro miners they would have A LOT less isk to sell. The buyer is the source. The sellers are just reacting to demand. They didn't create it. You have to get rid of the buyer which is immpossible. Just ban the buyers ... Nothing could go wrong with this idea! Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.06 17:43:00 - [66] Quote: Just ban the buyers ... If you ban the buyer it means a transaction has already occured. The seller has been paid. If the seller is getting paid then it won't stop. Look stop thinking there's an easy solution. RMT has been going on for decades. You can't stop it. Especially with somthing as crude as bans or filters.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.01.06 17:59:00 - [67] The best way to combat this is to hit them where it hurts - in real life. CCP should work on disclosing all the information about isk sellers - real names, credit cards, addresses. Then players who live in the area or have connections can go out there or hire local gangs to trash their place or beat up the people involved
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.06 18:00:00 - [68] Originally by: Ephemeron The best way to combat this is to hit them where it hurts - in real life. CCP should work on disclosing all the information about isk sellers - real names, credit cards, addresses. Then players who live in the area or have connections can go out there or hire local gangs to trash their place or beat up the people involved Iceland should declare war on China. There, I said what we are all thinking. Now it is out there. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Alanee'a Unakarakta	Posted - 2009.01.06 18:02:00 - [69] Originally by: Ephemeron The best way to combat this is to hit them where it hurts - in real life. CCP should work on disclosing all the information about isk sellers - real names, credit cards, addresses. Then players who live in the area or have connections can go out there or hire local gangs to trash their place or beat up the people involved that would be pretty hadcore ^_^ -ala ------------------ - - - -_^ send me eve-related links, and make ISK'ies @ www.3v3-online.com
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.06 18:03:00 - [70] Quote: Iceland should declare war on China. There, I said what we are all thinking. Now it is out there. A war helped the states get out of their great depression. Maybe it will help with Icelands current economic problems.
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2009.01.06 18:16:00 - [71] Originally by: Qordel Originally by: Vistrix Ferocia I barely notice them anymore. Its improved massively. Spend any time in an NPC corp and you'll notice it. In a gallente corp, I just saw some buy spam his ISK site about 80 times in a row - rendering the entire channel useless until he stopped. This is something that I have found to be interesting - the NPC corps do indeed get isk spam, but certain corps get FAR more than others. As a trading alt in the University of Caille that also helps the new players, I spend quite a lot of time watching the corp chat. I see very little isk spam. Once or twice a week, at most. Now, I have a new Caldari alt that is still in the State War Academy. I noticed that the Rookie Chat had so much spam that it made my brain hurt. Also, the SWA corp chat had loads of it. I had a similar experience with a short-lived Minmatar alt - the NPC corp was flooded with isk spam (and trolling, but what can you expect from the self-hating Minmatards). I'd have to agree that so much spam, especially in rookie chat, sends a bad message. That channel is often unusable because of the amount of crap. I've mentioned the baysian filtering before, and I'm glad to see other people bringing it up as well. Perhaps we should bring it up with the CSM?
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.06 18:24:00 - [72] Originally by: War Fairy Quote: Iceland should declare war on China. There, I said what we are all thinking. Now it is out there. A war helped the states get out of their great depression. Maybe it will help with Icelands current economic problems. Damn, that's a much better idea. Lets declare war on the Japs instead. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
B1FF	Posted - 2009.01.06 18:28:00 - [73] Quote: I've mentioned the baysian filtering before, and I'm glad to see other people bringing it up as well. Perhaps we should bring it up with the CSM? Isk is used to buy and sell things. Thus many many lines of chat that involve isk are going to involve buying and selling. Filtering will generate huge numbers of false positives.
Jack Gilligan Dragon's Rage KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.06 18:51:00 - [74] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah If the senior GMs could just blacklist certain URL domains and automatically filter all messages containing blacklisted URLs that would be a problem for the ISK sellers eh? If URL blocks did anything then server admins wouldn't have to deal with all that spam that's out there, would we? --- My opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my corp or alliance.
Jack Gilligan Dragon's Rage KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.06 18:56:00 - [75] Originally by: Jayne Tamm Does seem like a very similar siuation to the RL Cannabis problem (if you want to call it a problem ;)) If only governments legalised it, they could tax and control the product a lot more easily. If CCP offered isk for sale, they could generate a lot more revenue for its operations as well as being able to undercut the ISK sellers and force them out of the game. Only problem would be how CCP generate their ISK, as they cant just inject new ISK into the game on that level as it could cause a few market/economic problems. If CCP pulled a Smed and suddenly opened up a RMT mall (like SOE is doing) and they sold ISK there, you'd still see farmers and illegal sellers because they'd still undersell them. --- My opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my corp or alliance.
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2009.01.06 19:10:00 - [76] Originally by: B1FF Quote: I've mentioned the baysian filtering before, and I'm glad to see other people bringing it up as well. Perhaps we should bring it up with the CSM? Isk is used to buy and sell things. Thus many many lines of chat that involve isk are going to involve buying and selling. Filtering will generate huge numbers of false positives. This type of filtering isn't a simple keyword search. Bayesian filtering is the same process that Google uses to filter spam on gMail - while my experience is not universal, I have had one false positive in two years, and a handful of false negatives. It works very well. It isn't a cure-all, but it will stop a lot of the obvious stuff that is spammed repeatedly. At the very least, it would be nice to get some data (say, a hundred thousand messages for training) and do some actual testing.
B1FF	Posted - 2009.01.06 19:44:00 - [77] Originally by: Andrea Griffin Originally by: B1FF Quote: I've mentioned the baysian filtering before, and I'm glad to see other people bringing it up as well. Perhaps we should bring it up with the CSM? Isk is used to buy and sell things. Thus many many lines of chat that involve isk are going to involve buying and selling. Filtering will generate huge numbers of false positives. This type of filtering isn't a simple keyword search. Bayesian filtering is the same process that Google uses to filter spam on gMail - while my experience is not universal, I have had one false positive in two years, and a handful of false negatives. It works very well. It isn't a cure-all, but it will stop a lot of the obvious stuff that is spammed repeatedly. At the very least, it would be nice to get some data (say, a hundred thousand messages for training) and do some actual testing. It works on this unrelated thing so it must work in EvE! It's really not that simple. Spam email deviates greatly from regular email. isk spam does not deviate greatly from regular conversation. The lack of difference between the two makes it harder to define spam. I want to sell isk and I want to sell so I have isk. Without trying to evaluate the linguistical meaning both are going to have an almost identical Bayesian probability. Go find someone who's had to implement a spam filter at a heath care company. There are so many things you can't have in your filter. No you can't just fall back on clinical terms. Patients don't limit themselves to those. Additionally the medium is different. With email they have no direct feedback. With EvE you can immediatly see if your message was filtered. If it was then alter your phrasing until it does go through. Spam. Repeat. And finally. Filtering has a cost. This is a complete waste of CPU time on a server cluster that people already complain about. Frankly I don't see the spam. I only remember seeing it in Jita local but I stopped reading that years ago it's 100% ****. I guess if you're in a newb corp they get spammed but just minimize the window. Very easy fool proof solution.
B1FF	Posted - 2009.01.06 19:46:00 - [78] From your link. "Particular words have particular probabilities of occurring in spam email and in legitimate email. For instance, most email users will frequently encounter the word Viagra in spam email, but will seldom see it in other email." isk/buy/sell all have high frequency in both spam and non spam in eve.
State Security	Posted - 2009.01.06 21:50:00 - [79] ***HALT ! !*** This is a Thread Update if you just skimed up to here. Read this to catch up... 1. A program that can recognize words and word sets 2. Trial Acounts can't post links, anyting with www, http or dot in it 3. New and Improved! Trial acounts can only post once every 4-5 seconds. 4. Iceland nukes China
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2009.01.06 21:57:00 - [80] Originally by: B1FF From your link. "Particular words have particular probabilities of occurring in spam email and in legitimate email. For instance, most email users will frequently encounter the word Viagra in spam email, but will seldom see it in other email." isk/buy/sell all have high frequency in both spam and non spam in eve. Yet, normal talk doesn't have urls and a lot of the other weirdness that the spam messages do. There might be enough of a difference for this to work - then again, there might not, which is why I recommended testing. You know, instead of jumping to random conclusions, or simply dismissing an idea out of hand just for the sake of being a contrarian.
Korizan	Posted - 2009.01.06 22:00:00 - [81] I very rarely see ISK selling SPAM. However I do see a lot of other SPAM in local that is just as annoying. CNR for sale. Implants for sale. BLAH BLAH BLAH. about 1/2 second later local gets minimized or a I push the names section so far over to left I don't have to look @ it. Besides who actually talks or even reads local anyways unless you are in low-sec or 0.0
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.01.06 22:08:00 - [82] I do find it amusing that folks assume the ISK sellers are after your RL currency from one transaction. From what I've read, the ISK sellers are actually after a valid credit card number. I think the best punishment for buying ISK is those extra transactions you didn't authorise, and can't charge back because they've gone through some payment gateway or another. Let the punishment fit the crime!
Faife Federation of Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2009.01.06 22:52:00 - [83] Originally by: Sokratesz What Qordel said, its not difficult..I bet I could write a script in python that recognises 75% of ISK sell spam in a few hours - so CCP should be able to do so far better. which will last about a week until they start burying that stuff spam style
Darkeen Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.06 23:47:00 - [84] Another reason to get out of the NPC corp as fast as you can. Join a player corp ANY corp is better than putting up with spam m messages that these Isk sellers put out. Remember that all that network traffic simply slows down the server responses to YOUR PC and destroys your gaming experience! Regards, Jason Brisbane
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.07 00:16:00 - [85] Originally by: Bast's Cleric There is a Very easy Solution to the whole Issue. CCP Start Selling Isk Themselves, Through the Website, that Way they have a Paper Trail of Who Bought it Legal and Who didn't and Hurt the ones who Didn't. Then We won't have any More Isk Sellers. And CCP Can Set the Price on it. This is what GTCs are. The problem is that there is absolutely no way any such implementation will prevent people from buying ISK directly from farmers. Unless CCP flat out finds some way to prevent transfer of ISK from one player to another under any circumstances (which would mean the entire foundatin of EVE itself would be eliminated), people can still pay a company outside of EVE hard cash to log into the game and transfer ISK to their account. And if CCP sets a price for ISK, the farmers will just set a lower price as they already do compared to GTCs (I think isk farmers seem to advertise about twice the ISK per USD as you'd get trading GTCs). Since you can't really control that, the only thing they CAN control is preventing ISK farmers from spamming channels (local, NPC corps, Rookie Help, etc) with advertising. Make it harder for them to destroy the game by peddling their crap. -- What's your EVE New Year's Resolution for 2009?
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.07 00:19:00 - [86] Originally by: B1FF Quote: This still prevents them from pasting in the pretty gold links ("don't click the link!" - "I can't help it, its sooooo pretty") and means it'll largely get ignored. Yeah cause isk buyers don't know how to copy and paste. Lack of a clickable link is not going to stop buyers. Whether or not a URL is clickable is irrelevant. The domain name portion will still be there in full and filterable. And if they figure out clever ways to present the same domain info without it being filterable? That's where the heuristics kick in. Enough other elements that tend to appear in ISK spamming could be enough to detect it even without the URL portion. Simple heuristics like... SAME MESSAGE BEING SPAMMED 800 TIMES IN FIVE MINUTES. -- What's your EVE New Year's Resolution for 2009?
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.07 00:29:00 - [87] Originally by: War Fairy Quote: Just ban the buyers ... If you ban the buyer it means a transaction has already occured. The seller has been paid. If the seller is getting paid then it won't stop. Look stop thinking there's an easy solution. RMT has been going on for decades. You can't stop it. Especially with somthing as crude as bans or filters. You're right. Why bother locking your doors? Burglaries have been going on for decades. You can't stop it. Why bother making it more difficult or anything? Here's the thing - a clever filtering system will perform a VERY IMPORTANT function. It will reduce the advertising. Instead of being bombarded with dozens or hundreds of ISK spam ads in-game, you would actually have to go outside of EVE and surf the web and hunt down ISK sellers. While some people may do that, the number will be smaller. A lot of customers come from being in channel and seeing this incessant spam and thinking "hey, I could use more ISK!" and impulsively following through. I run a very large site with about 100,000 paying members. Therefore, I get a LOT of email. Just for that service alone. Without implementing any spam handling methodologies, I will receive many thousands of spam messages per day. Easily in excess of 20,000 pure spam messages. But guess what? Implementing some "crude" solutions on the server, such as a Bayesian filter, some procmail filters, some SMTP-level submission/session limitations and black/white/grey listing -- I'm able to reduce the amount of spam to something more manageable, like a couple dozen spam messages. Does it eliminate it entirely? No. Will they still continue to spam? Certainly. But does it return control of my communications to me? Yes. Will it make channels more management and make them usable again? Yes. Will it improve the impression for new users? Yes. Will it reduce the opportunities for spammers to advertise to players? Yes. Will it reduce the number of players who buy ISK from them? Yes. The fact of the matter is that it is NOT enough to simply say "buying ISK is against the EULA and you'll be banned". You still have to take PREVENTATIVE measures. You still have to show that you're serious. You still have to show that you give a damn. We say that dealing drugs is wrong, but we still also take preventative measures to eliminate drug dealing - because you have to attack things on multiple fronts for any real effect. -- What's your EVE New Year's Resolution for 2009?
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.07 00:37:00 - [88] Originally by: Squably No problems with isk sellers in 0.0 Fetchez la vache !
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.07 00:45:00 - [89] Edited by: Qordel on 07/01/2009 00:45:44 Originally by: B1FF Quote: I've mentioned the baysian filtering before, and I'm glad to see other people bringing it up as well. Perhaps we should bring it up with the CSM? Isk is used to buy and sell things. Thus many many lines of chat that involve isk are going to involve buying and selling. Filtering will generate huge numbers of false positives. I'm not certain that you understand Bayesian filtering. As has already been described in many posts above, the heuristics involved in bayesian filtering take into account far more than "there is a word matching in this message, therefore it must be spam!". If the word "ISK" is in the message, it counts as a hit. It weights the message toward the "it might be spam" side. Hits toward that probability are increased for things like it being a new or trial account. And another hit if it contains a URL or linked URL. Another hit if the URL is to an external site (or at least, a site that does not exist on a CCP white-list). Another hit if it includes a lot of UTF-8 / non-ascii content. Another hit if the same message has been sent repeatedly from the same author in a given period of time. Which is more likely to be ISK spamming? 1) Message from non-trial account containing a URL and the word "ISK" in it that is sent once. ...OR... 2) Message from trial or new account containing a URL or domain to a non white-listed site that also has the word "ISK" in the message, lots of non-ascii characters, the words "fast" and "service" and "cheap", the EURO currency symbol AND has been sent 20 times in the last 30 seconds? I think it's clear which is and isn't spam. It'll be clear to a reasonably implemented set of heuristics as well. Will there be some false positives? Maybe. Shouldn't be a lot. The heuristics can be tweaked over time to improve the situation. Perhaps even make it something users can toggle in their settings - or offer them a few settings that they can adjust for their own comfort. This stuff, again, is simply not rocket science. Word Press, Blogger, Thunderbird, Gmail, SpamAssassin and even Warhammer have figured this stuff out as have countless others. Another thing they could do is have a set of heuristics that tends toward favoring something as NOT being spam. Toward letting through more spam instead of a higher chance of false-positives. And then make reporting spammers MUCH EASIER. Instead of having to capture the name and message and creating a petition, etc - every time one of the thousands of throw-away spam accounts jumps up, make it something where I can right click on the spammer's UID and select "petition as ISK seller spam". -- This way we address the majority of spam BEFORE it happens... but also allow very easy reporting by the population of players for those spammers that get by the filters. Adding human analysis into it. Hell, you could even have it so that the more individuals that petition an individual using such a system, the higher chance the filtering system will consider the author in question as a spammer. So if there are a few isk spammer traits being marked by the filter, but not enough to defnitely classify it as spam, a few people marking it as spam could tip it overboard and an automatic system could then say "okay, we're now sure this IS spam". Of course, simply having a bunch of people claim it's spam wouldn't be enough. If ten people say "this is a spammer", their account or messages won't automatically be affected. However, if ten people say "this is a spammer" and enough of the other hits (domains, urls, words, characteristics, etc) are already matched by the filter.. then it tips it over the hump and goes ahead and marks it as such. -- What's your EVE New Year's Resolution for 2009?
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.07 01:02:00 - [90] Originally by: B1FF Originally by: Sokratesz What Qordel said, its not difficult..I bet I could write a script in python that recognises 75% of ISK sell spam in a few hours - so CCP should be able to do so far better. Including massive amounts of false positives. "Hey dude this is my new character can you send me some isk so I can get ships and implants?" Oh and the two friends are Russian so it's in cyrilic. Fully legit. Hits many bullet points. ******* armchair coders. Actually, I'm a software developer by trade. In fact, I developer an enterprise mail server used by most Fortune 500s and government agencies, including implementing hooks into spam prevention systems such as SpamAssassin, Brightmail and others. It's a significant part of what I've done for the last ten years. The problem here is that you don't understand what Bayesian filtering is. The heuristics involved would see the following hits in the message you gave as an example (by the way, this is what gmail uses and their spam filtering has very low false-positive rates): isk +1 new character +1 non-ascii +1 Any reasonable implementation is not going to see this as spam. It isn't a simple binary system where one match indicates it is spam. Let's say you need 5 points for it to be spam. The above will count as 3 points. Not spam. Enough of the following possible hits and it could be classified as spam. Too many false positives when testing? Then they can simply tweak the hit scores and the number of points for it to be considered spam. Easy enough. isk +1 new character +1 non-ascii +1 blacklisted domain +5 link to non-whitelisted site +0.5 message spammed X number of times in Y seconds +1.5 author marked as spammer by X number of players +1.5 EURO currency symbol +0.5 How many of those would you match to reach 5 points yet still be innocent of anything? Of course, you'd also add a number of other elements deemed to appear frequently in spam messages to improve the accuracy. So really, the problem isn't so much the risk of false positives as your lack of understanding what the **** we're talking about. -- What's your EVE New Year's Resolution for 2009?

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