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CCP will you PLEASE start selling ISK already ! ! !

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Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.07 01:09:00 - [91] Originally by: Faife Originally by: Sokratesz What Qordel said, its not difficult..I bet I could write a script in python that recognises 75% of ISK sell spam in a few hours - so CCP should be able to do so far better. which will last about a week until they start burying that stuff spam style No. There is a distinct limitation to possible obfuscation by spammers in chat channels. They can post ascii, UTF-8 and URLs. They can't post HTML or images or javascript or any other combination of frequently used methods to obfuscate spam and (almost always without success) circumvent filters that are implemented in, say, email filters. Then reduce the number of steps and hassle involved in reporting spammers and you now involve the human element. The mind is a great processor and in combination with a number of other positive hits can cause an automated system to match on something that wouldn't quite otherwise qualify. Or make the CCP implemented system learn from itself so that when CCP processes spam reports submitted by actual players (ie, spam versus ham) it analyzes the selected spam messages and picks up on the tricks used within to circumvent things. Then they won't work to trick it any more. This is how most filtering systems behave right now and why v1@gra and spam infused with images, javascript, html, etc doesn't often succeed in getting by the filters. And... so what if it doesn't catch 100% of the spammers? Let's say it catches 60%. Sounds good to me. -- What's your EVE New Year's Resolution for 2009?
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.07 01:20:00 - [92] Originally by: B1FF Originally by: Andrea Griffin Originally by: B1FF Quote: I've mentioned the baysian filtering before, and I'm glad to see other people bringing it up as well. Perhaps we should bring it up with the CSM? Isk is used to buy and sell things. Thus many many lines of chat that involve isk are going to involve buying and selling. Filtering will generate huge numbers of false positives. This type of filtering isn't a simple keyword search. Bayesian filtering is the same process that Google uses to filter spam on gMail - while my experience is not universal, I have had one false positive in two years, and a handful of false negatives. It works very well. It isn't a cure-all, but it will stop a lot of the obvious stuff that is spammed repeatedly. At the very least, it would be nice to get some data (say, a hundred thousand messages for training) and do some actual testing. It works on this unrelated thing so it must work in EvE! ... Go find someone who's had to implement a spam filter at a heath care company. There are so many things you can't have in your filter. No you can't just fall back on clinical terms. Patients don't limit themselves to those. Guess what. This is exactly something I deal with. Not only with clients who are health care companies such as Blue Cross Blue Shield and Johns Hopkins, but major universities, NASA, JPL and various government agencies and ministries across the globe and a number of major ISPs (Cox, Comcast, Shaw, Vodafone, etc). Quote: Additionally the medium is different. With email they have no direct feedback. With EvE you can immediatly see if your message was filtered. If it was then alter your phrasing until it does go through. Spam. Repeat. You're trying to make this much more difficult than it actually is. Just because some content appears both in legitimate and spam messages doesn't mean it isn't easy to differentiate the two. Not to mention, attempts to circumvent will actually increase the difference between normal and spam messages. And, again, in combination with things like a domain blacklist and a flood limiter and you have a good thing going. How many non-spam messages contain the exact same message spammed dozens of times in a short period and contain a blacklisted domain? Quote: And finally. Filtering has a cost. This is a complete waste of CPU time on a server cluster that people already complain about. And SPAM doesn't have a cost at all. You're right. What were we thinking. Quote: Frankly I don't see the spam. I only remember seeing it in Jita local but I stopped reading that years ago it's 100% **. Well, god damn! Then I guess it doesn't exist. YOU don't encounter the problem, so NOBODY does. Quote: I guess if you're in a newb corp they get spammed but just minimize the window. Very easy fool proof solution. Yes. Compeltely fool proof. If you're a new player, rather than trying to utilize the tools out there for helping you in the game, just minimize it and ignore it! Rather than trying to improve the experience of new players so they don't get the impression that EVE is just a festering **-hole of spam, let's just stick our heads in the sand! Tell you what. You may not see the spam, but spend any time in Local in busy systems and you will. Spend any time in NPC corps and you'll see a lot of it (SAK, the Gallente Navy, etc). Not to mention Help and Rookie Help. I think you'll find that filtering the text in chat from a few thousand users can be implemented in such a way that the load is not significant. Whether it'd distributed across the entire cluster or they just set up a server or two dedicated to managing chat channels so they can perform dedicated analysis - it is not an impossibility. Regardless, it'sa necessary cost of improving the experience and presentation. -- What's your EVE New Year's Resolution for 2009?
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.07 01:22:00 - [93] Originally by: Mara Rinn I do find it amusing that folks assume the ISK sellers are after your RL currency from one transaction. From what I've read, the ISK sellers are actually after a valid credit card number. I think the best punishment for buying ISK is those extra transactions you didn't authorise, and can't charge back because they've gone through some payment gateway or another. Let the punishment fit the crime! Of course, if you do trade with such people and an established payment processor like PayPal isn't involved then it shows a distinct lack of judgement (not that it dismisses the burden from in-game CCP-forged prevention or anything - just saying). -- What's your EVE New Year's Resolution for 2009?
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.07 01:26:00 - [94] Originally by: Darkeen Another reason to get out of the NPC corp as fast as you can. Join a player corp ANY corp is better than putting up with spam m messages that these Isk sellers put out. Remember that all that network traffic simply slows down the server responses to YOUR PC and destroys your gaming experience! Agreed. However, even if you dismiss reasonable justifications for remaining in NPC corps, this option comes too late in the game for new players. By the time they are aware of player run corps and everything, they have already spent two weeks in the disasterous Rookie Help and have already gotten a bad taste in their mouth. There are two reasons to deal with this problem. The first is just eliminating the annoyance in general. The second is presenting the game professionally and positively to a new flood of players. Especially with the push CCP is making in March. I have jumped into other games over the years and have found none that have the level of spam that EVE does and with the seeming disinterest that CCP has. -- What's your EVE New Year's Resolution for 2009?
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.01.07 01:43:00 - [95] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Nareg Maxence You must go places I don't, cause since Trinity where the GM tools against ISK spammers were buffed, I am not seeing any. Maybe once or twice in a month, that's all. WorksForMe(TM) I seldom see any either. I'm guessing that the spam occurs in noob corp chat. Just another reason to join a proper corp! That only half-solve it, because of: Originally by: hendo001 or go to any system near jita and u run into a shedload of them :( ..that. I'm not having any iskselling spam near where I live, nor obviously in this little corp. But I do travel alot, especially on an alt of mine, and there's systems where you virtually non-stop rightclick in the middle of warp just to turn off the flood of text going on in local. Since I tend to be in war (or have killrights on me, cough), I prefer local open so closing it isn't an option. Blocking isn't an ideal solution either, guess what happens to your block list after a while..
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.07 01:55:00 - [96] Originally by: Misanth I'm not having any iskselling spam near where I live, nor obviously in this little corp. But I do travel alot, especially on an alt of mine, and there's systems where you virtually non-stop rightclick in the middle of warp just to turn off the flood of text going on in local. Since I tend to be in war (or have killrights on me, cough), I prefer local open so closing it isn't an option. In busy systems, local is just not even worth paying attention to. If not the isk selling, then the 800 spams per second by some douche wanting to peddle his module. If not that, then some moron trying to get people to send ISK to him with the promise that he'll send back three fold the ISK because he's quitting eve. Yeah, EVE is a cold and harsh place. Sometimes certain elements just make it seem like a stupid and (re) tarded place. Quote: Blocking isn't an ideal solution either, guess what happens to your block list after a while.. And by the time the chat stops scrolling enough that you can actually block someone, they've already shot their load. -- What's your EVE New Year's Resolution for 2009?
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.01.07 02:08:00 - [97] Originally by: Qordel And by the time the chat stops scrolling enough that you can actually block someone, they've already shot their load. ..which brings us back to the issue of what CCP can do with their filters..
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.07 02:27:00 - [98] Originally by: Misanth Originally by: Qordel And by the time the chat stops scrolling enough that you can actually block someone, they've already shot their load. ..which brings us back to the issue of what CCP can do with their filters.. Of course: CCP makes money from the sale of GTCs just as they do from actual subscriptions, whether the GTC is sold to a player to play, to a player to sell for ISK or to a farmer to run their account to farm for ISK. If there is no in-game spamming allowed by ISK Sellers, then the ISK sellers have less business and less need for farming accounts. Fewer farming accounts means they buy fewer GTCs for ISK which means fewer people buy GTCs to sell for ISK due to less demand. CCP may lose money by people buying ISK from ISK sellers but then they probably make up some of it by selling GTCs to the ISK sellers. Of course, presumably none of that is even in consideration, because the integrity and stability of the game, economy and universe itself is paramount and not something they would sell out for some extra moolah in this fashion. Certainly. -- What's your EVE New Year's Resolution for 2009?
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.07 02:39:00 - [99] For those who keep saying "Garsh, it's so difficult to discern the content of a valid message from spam!", let me present an example (with the domain removed for obvious reasons). You're right. The technology simply does not exist to automatically detect the following as a piece of spam or prevent it from being spammed dozens of times within a few seconds or to block the domain that has been spammed for WEEKS. We are light years away from such amazing technology. It's so baffling. ----- fgfgffggttt56 > EVE ISK service ★★★www.(removed).com★★★ best service No waiting ,legal, 24hours★★★<br> ★100M=$2.35★★★<br> ★200M=$３．５６★★★★www.(removed).com★★★<br> ★300M=$５．５５★★★<br> ★400M=$７．４８★★★★www.(removed).com★★★<br> ★1000M=$１８．０９★★★<br> ★2000M=＄３６．２９★★★★www.(removed).com★★★... ----- There is no way to differentiate this from regular chat. After all, regular chat often has a lot of line breaks, multiple URLs, the same URL multiple times, multiple currency denominators and lots of non-ascii star characters and the words "free isk service" and so little actual TEXT and WORDS. Scientific experts will have to work on this impossible task for decades to come. My god. The depth of this task. OH NOES! -- What's your EVE New Year's Resolution for 2009?
OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2009.01.07 02:48:00 - [100] Edited by: OffBeaT on 07/01/2009 02:49:04 i think what this well money making isk dealing in eve should say to ccp is that alot of players cant play the game the way it was meant to be.. losses are to heavy to the mid range players so eve is losing control of there market to isk dealing just to rig a cheap ship to compete witch you need to just to compete in the combat can cost like 40-50mil.. thats just for the RIGS! so wake up ccp!! do rigs really need to cost players this much!
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2009.01.07 02:55:00 - [101] To the ones, who point out that they by themselfes don't see any spam, it's HAMMERING channels where MANY PEOPLE ARE READING IT.. Its mostly in the system-channels, you can easily reach over the mail&chatlist menue (HELP, HILFE, ..) and also in the npc-corp-channels where rookies are (SWA, ..) and some of the trade-hubs-locals (Jita, Ours, Rens, Dodi, Motsu, ..) So, the implementation of these filters CAN be made only on these channels, so the servers wont get hurt that much.. Cheers Forge '07 on Sale
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.01.07 03:08:00 - [102] Originally by: OffBeaT Edited by: OffBeaT on 07/01/2009 03:00:08 i think what this well money making isk dealing in eve should say to ccp is that a lot of players cant play the game the way it was meant to be.. losses are to heavy to the mid range players so eve is losing control of there market to isk dealing, like just to rig a cheap ship to compete with you need 40 mil or more to do it.. sad thing is its the weaker players with the lease isk that need to do this the most to stay alive. so wake up ccp!! do rigs really need to cost players this much! This is players sucking. Nobody has to rig a ship just to be competitive.
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.01.07 03:14:00 - [103] CCP Don't sell ISK via GTCs, they provide a facility for players to sell each other ISK in exchange for Game Time. This means that no money is added/removed from the EVE economy, which means it doesn't upset the balance of the game. If CCP were to start selling ISK for cash, it would cause hyper-inflation within a few months as they would basically be printing money from thin air. This leads to a devaluation of the ISK as the same amount of worth is in the economy as before, but more currency is needed to purchase the same value of good/service. Eventually ISK becomes a worthless concept in the universe which everybody has and CCP would need to introduce a new currency on top of the old, broken ISK that would be linked to real-world currency by a rate of their choosing. DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2009.01.07 03:15:00 - [104] Edited by: OffBeaT on 07/01/2009 03:16:38 Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: OffBeaT Edited by: OffBeaT on 07/01/2009 03:00:08 i think what this well money making isk dealing in eve should say to ccp is that a lot of players cant play the game the way it was meant to be.. losses are to heavy to the mid range players so eve is losing control of there market to isk dealing, like just to rig a cheap ship to compete with you need 40 mil or more to do it.. sad thing is its the weaker players with the lease isk that need to do this the most to stay alive. so wake up ccp!! do rigs really need to cost players this much! This is players sucking. Nobody has to rig a ship just to be competitive. yea.. whatever you say..
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.07 03:46:00 - [105] Originally by: OffBeaT yea.. whatever you say.. Indeed. You're bad. Now that you know this, figure out how to not be bad anymore. As for spam, there really needs to be some way of dealing with it. I have a noob corp alt that I have parked in Jita, and every time I log in, it's SPAM SPAM SPAM nonstop. At the very least there should be some sort of flood control so poeple can't post the same spam 50 times in 10 seconds. Filter known ISK-seller URLs. Make it so people who get mass-reported in noob chat channels are auto-muzzled 'till a GM can check it out. Make trial accounts not able to post links. None of this is as good as smart filtering software that can learn as it goes, but it can't possibly be that hard to implement.
Mr Mozzie Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.07 05:22:00 - [106] Isk selling could be a good thing if the substantial revenue was raised and used to further develop eve. Then again that does need to be weighed up against the other issues, such as the impact on the eve economy, the moral implications of selling isk.
Detritus Thermopyle Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.07 05:36:00 - [107] So ... Ccp selling isk will eliminate isk spammers? The spam will just change from: Ahifyw184364 "HEY YOU BUY ISK ME NOW! SELL BEST PRICE HERE NOW PLEASE!" To: Ahifyw184364 "HEY YOU BUY ISK ME NOW! SELL BEST PRICE HERE NOW PLEASE! BELOW CCP PRICE!" A lie can travel halfway around the universe while the truth is un-docking. ~ Mark Twain (paraphrased)
AkRoYeR Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.07 05:47:00 - [108] Originally by: R3dSh1ft CCP Don't sell ISK via GTCs....... Love this type of thinking. So your saying CCP doesn't sell ISK but makes people use ISK to buy GTC's which are sold for cash? Wait a sec, somehow I am not getting your fuzzy logic. 1. CCP sell GTC 2. GTC cash goes into CCP pocket 3. Player pays ISK for GTC which CCP recieved cash for (directly or indirectl) 4. ISK for GTC sold by CCP for cash = CCP gets cash for ISK indirectly Tell me I am wrong.
Thallidus	Posted - 2009.01.07 07:13:00 - [109] Originally by: Qordel Two weeks in the rookie channel (which I recently went through again) and you will suspect that EVE-Online is just a run-down, neglected, has-been piece of crap that nobody is moderating or managing and that it has become over-run by a bunch of scamming spammers. Hi, I'm a genuine new player to eve. It really DOES feel like that. I can't even open the rookie channel without getting bombarded with isk selling messages. The game's complicated enough to learn without being unable to ask noob questions.
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.01.07 10:28:00 - [110] Originally by: AkRoYeR Originally by: R3dSh1ft CCP Don't sell ISK via GTCs....... Love this type of thinking. So your saying CCP doesn't sell ISK but makes people use ISK to buy GTC's which are sold for cash? Wait a sec, somehow I am not getting your fuzzy logic. 1. CCP sell GTC 2. GTC cash goes into CCP pocket 3. Player pays ISK for GTC which CCP recieved cash for (directly or indirectl) 4. ISK for GTC sold by CCP for cash = CCP gets cash for ISK indirectly Tell me I am wrong. GTC purchases don't involve printing money, which directly selling ISK would. Selling ISK to get rid of the farmers is like curing the disease by killing the patient. DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
Indiano Arko Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.07 10:38:00 - [111] IMHO, twas a big mistake to double prices on ETC. I do not exactly know what CCP tried to accomplish but it made way more affordable "ebaying ISK" in the end of the day... Shame.
Indiano Arko Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.07 10:41:00 - [112] Originally by: R3dSh1ft Originally by: AkRoYeR Originally by: R3dSh1ft CCP Don't sell ISK via GTCs....... Love this type of thinking. So your saying CCP doesn't sell ISK but makes people use ISK to buy GTC's which are sold for cash? Wait a sec, somehow I am not getting your fuzzy logic. 1. CCP sell GTC 2. GTC cash goes into CCP pocket 3. Player pays ISK for GTC which CCP recieved cash for (directly or indirectl) 4. ISK for GTC sold by CCP for cash = CCP gets cash for ISK indirectly Tell me I am wrong. GTC purchases don't involve printing money, which directly selling ISK would. Selling ISK to get rid of the farmers is like curing the disease by killing the patient. GTC purchases indirectly involve money.
Lord Zoran House of Tempers	Posted - 2009.01.07 10:52:00 - [113] 1. ccp shouldn't sell isk. 2. deal with farmers better would be appropriate 3. yes people are screaming well why do you look at the channels etc but to be fair why should someone have to leave an npc corp just to get away from the spam? or not use the channel because of it?
Fujiko MaXjolt Caldari Templar Republic Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.07 11:09:00 - [114] I have a suggestion, combine it with the others for maximum effect x number of people blocking someone in y amount of time = auto-gag for a period of z, followed by notification of a gm/whoever. That should be fairly easy to implement and will take data about something people are already doing (blocking) and applying it to prevent spam.
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.07 11:18:00 - [115] google spam protection works like that, if enought ppl mark as spam so everyone wil lget it marked.
Indiano Arko Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.07 11:21:00 - [116] Originally by: Lord Zoran 1. ccp shouldn't sell isk. They already do.
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.07 12:40:00 - [117] Originally by: Kalintos Tyl google spam protection works like that, if enought ppl mark as spam so everyone wil lget it marked. Gmail is a little more involved than that, but it is essentially accurate. Google uses Bayesian filtering to detect spam and, as with most server-side Bayesian implementations, it has a process for accepting HAM and SPAM submissions. That is, a sort of "folder" that the entire userbase can contribute to by marking individual messages as being HAM (good mail) or SPAM (bad mail). By feeding these messages back into the Bayesian filter itself as having been flagged the opposite of what the filter initially thought they were, it gets smarter. The larger the userbase, the better. Gmail obviously has an absolutely massive userbase, so when even a fraction of a percent of users receive a message in their inbox that should have gone to SPAM and they report it as SPAM, the system evolves very quickly to begin classifying messages with the same traits as that piece of mail as also being spam. That would probably be a bit involved to deploy on each and every cluster system, but I can't imagine why CCP couldn't have a couple of servers that are dedicated to processing the chat channels (frankly, this probably already is the case). Add a little computing power to the systems responsible for this, stick on some similar filtering and have at it. Text is text, whether you're processing email or chat. And with the size of chat in EVE, it'd have a massive pool of SPAM/HAM to dine on up-front and become rather smart rather fast.
Indiano Arko Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.07 12:47:00 - [118] Pretty interesting. Thanks for clarification Qordel.
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2009.01.07 13:13:00 - [119] Why don't we just plant some oil under the sweatshop and then the Yanks will engage in "Operation ISK Freedom"... their country will get so ****ed up that I doubt they'll even have dialup to connect to EVE. Removed. Please keep your EVE signature related to your EVE persona and not that of a real life politician. Navigator
Sniper Wolf18 Gallente A Pretty Pony Princess	Posted - 2009.01.07 13:17:00 - [120] If CCP sell isk, the isk sellers will only sell it cheaper By the way, does it annoy you when you didnt realise that you were reading my sig?

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