My Magic Crystal Ball tells me "Not earlier than after Alliance Tournament X"

Seriously, isn't it obvious?

Details on the Drake changes plox?

Some time between yesterday and the heat death of the universe. Sorry I can't be more specific.

. . . (please consider some more complex paragraph structure, thanx) . . .

Drakes work realy well in a Blob but what ship doesn't?

People complain about overpowered ships whenever they loose to them, there are only a few ships I truely think are over-powered... the Drake is definately not one of them, I'd echo that with the Harbinger as well.

Yes they both can do very respectable Damage with Incredible strong Defence, but to do that you always have sacrifice E-War potencial; on top of that they are SLOW compared to the Tier 1 Battlecruisers and Cruisers can run bloody rings around them.

You want to truely balance them out, increase their damage a little bit and remove their ability to use drones.

I don't think the drake is overpowered in it's current state however the proposed changes most certainly will make it so. A significant dps increase to all type types as well as a mild one to kinetic on top of a flight time bonus will make the drake the new kiting king of bcs. Nano it up with a reasonable buffer, long point, mwd, and off grid skirmish links and you have a ship capable of soloing any other tier 2 bc with ease so long as you don't get caught in a warp to 0 situation or at undock. And even if put in a brawling situation the drake will have the best dps/tank ratio while having a significant range advantage at the same time.

Another issue I see with this change is the viability of the gallente t2 resists in pvp. Ideally these resists are designed to counter ships dmg types from the opposing faction. With the current trend of changing kin missile dmg bonuses to universal rof bonuses I see kin/therm being inadequate for dealing with the increased dps across all selectable dmg types. I don't have a solution to this hypothetical problem from a hypothetical change however I'd advise that ccp be rather careful with this one.

On your first paragraph, it appears they were proposing losing both current bonuses, so the ship will not have a kinetic and a rof bonus.

Never said it was going to have a kin and rof bonus, simply a rof bonus. 25% rof bonus is a 33% universal dmg bonus instead of the 25% to just kinetic. So you end up with a significant increase in explosive, thermal, and em dmg compared to current drake and a small increase to kinetic missiles over current drake.

Yes but its a bonus to one group, not all of them at once. The drake problem was never just it's DPS, but the DPS/Tank ratio.

Instead of nerfing the drake, why aren't we buffing the other BC's? I think the cane/cyclone are fine, leave mini alone.



Buff Myrm's drone bay+bandwidth.
Give the Harbi more CPU





Do these things and you'll have more options for fleet fights.

This change is only a nerf to dribbling idiots and people who use it for level 4s.

(And there's quite a bit of overlap between those two groups, I've noticed...)

Instead of nerfing the drake, why aren't we buffing the other BC's?

Some time between yesterday and the heat death of the universe. Sorry I can't be more specific.

Erm, given the current expansion rate of the universe, it will probably die in a big freeze rather than suffer a fiery death.
Just saying.

Drake isn't really overpowered.
However in fleets the Drake perform superior because of the cheap, solid tank and mediocre dps multiplied with usually 200+ ships.

Hurricanes deserve a nerf.
Drake deserve a rebalance which will for many people make the Drake a much more attractive ship to fly.

But be patient...
I don't think they will touch the battlecruisers until they have rebalanced all the T1 frigates and the cruisers.
You get to test them on the test server when it comes and give your input here...

Pinky

Some time between yesterday and the heat death of the universe. Sorry I can't be more specific.

no, just no
leave the battlecruisers alone

And give to us more +25% HP for tier3 BC-s. Rebalance them.

Tier 3 BCs are not perfect on first release. This shouldn't be a giant deal, they just need a speed & agility nerf. Then the drake and cane will return to top spot of needing a nerf, and this thread will be back on topic.

So about that universe heat death...

Uh no. Those ships are fine just as.

These statistics is a testament to the Drakes performance in fleets and not necesarily on a 1vs1 comparison...

But let's keep playing Drakes and Tengus Online.


edit- as for tier 3 BCs, I really can't care that much about their impact. They die well enough anyway. None of them are topping the eve-kill stats by a 2 or 3 to 1 ratio against the second place ship for kills.

QFT

Balance, would be as near as possible for 1:1 in usage for any class of ship, weighted for population.

More people roll caldari, so seeing more drakes makes sense, but not in a 3:1 ratio.

Tier 3 BCs are not perfect on first release. This shouldn't be a giant deal, they just need a speed & agility nerf. Then the drake and cane will return to top spot of needing a nerf, and this thread will be back on topic.

So about that universe heat death...

i did lol but that probably makes perfect sense to CCP

i think myrm should have same bandwidth as nexor at least
drakes are common becuase its what most people get told to get into, not becuase they are op
maybe i should insert some random bullcrap about not seeing the hole picture, throw in some random statistics and call everyone else an idiot (in a way that doesnt directly insult anyone) would that be preferable?

Yes, you should. Your post is devoid of any evidence to support your opinion. Not even anecdotal evidence Certainly you see the hole picture but not the whole picture.

Btw, all those bad people telling other people to get into Drakes, and those sad people doing what others tell them to do. And I thought I had a bad opinion of the player base. You are insulting everyone.

you mean the only evidence you use?

pleeaasseee

Snip

Many of posters here want to see Drake, Tengu and HML nerfed. But those 2 ships are almost everything that Caldari can offer. Imagine Drake, Tengu and HML nerfed to oblivion. Please try to give me then a good reason for a new player to choose Caldari.

"If I choose Caldari I will be pigeonholed into questionable supporting role. Cool!"

Caldari Destroyer, Cruisers, 2/3 BC, BS, Capitals, many T2 frigs, HACs, Logistic ship etc are mediocre at best. All of the above can be replaced with better ships from other races.
Beside niche EWAR ships and offgrid-boosters there won't be any reason to bother with Caldari ship line at all. If they nerf Drake/Tengu/HML I want my SP back since investing into anything bigger than T1 frigs on Caldari will be a waste.

Olol ! Not considering Tengu or Drake, caldari have very good ships. For frigate, the Merlin is often regarded as nearly OP. Scorpion is invaluable in fleet, and Rokh are solid fleet choice too. Basilisk is as better than the Scimitar than the guardian is better than the Oneiros ; in Rokh fleet, I'm sure they are way more effective than Scimitars. Harpy is a beast, and I rarely heard T2 caldari frigate could be regarded as weak. Cruisers are another story as the whole class have problems, though the caracal is a very good antifrigate platform. Well, no need to speak about rook or falcon I guess, they are a reason for some to dedicate alt for, and ECM are the reason for the blackbird to be one of the most effective t1 cruiser. I also forgot the Ferox which have seen some king of rebirth since the hybrid rebalance.

So what do we have which don't work with caldari ship ? Raven because of BS missiles launchers ; some (and even not all) cruisers because of cruisers ; some frigates because tier ; and the destroyer which is not the best, though I don't think it is that useless. And on top of that, mighty Drake and Tengu because of them and HML...

You said caldari had no options ? Learn to fly caldari ships please. Tips : they can use hybrid guns and ECM too.

Damn, some people even manage to use battle badgers ; and again, this "nerf" is not one : you don't add more dps to something when nerfing it.

I never said that T1 Caldari frigs are bad.
1. Scropion/BB/Falcon are a niche support role ships. Most players prefer other roles.
2. Rokh is ~usable~ at best compared to Maelstrom/Abaddon, even Tempest is better in most situations.
3. Basilisk is just worse than scimitar, that's why scimitars are so overused. Maybe in incrusions it's useful, haven't tried it.
4. Rokh fleet is rarely used because of #2.
5. Harpy can easily be replaced with other assault ships that will do same things better (except lol frigate sniper). Look at Craptor if you can't remember T2 Caldari frigs that are bad.
6. Agree that cruisers are weak. But compare Moa with Rupture/Stabber/Vexor then and see the difference.
7. Ferox is weak. Compare with Hurricane.
8. Hybrids are bad in general (except some blaster ships). Caldari EWAR is a niche support role as I mentioned before.
9. Battle badgers are fun and all, but it's still a joke.

And we left with:
- ECM paper-thin ships.
- Merlin.
- Some suboptomal choices.

I was talking not about supposed Drake changes but about hypothetical nerfs that so many peoples here crave for.

Some time between yesterday and the heat death of the universe. Sorry I can't be more specific.

If you like pure firepower, you should enjoy this drake rebalance : drake will then have a good firepower, and and a good tank instead of a respectable firepower and an OP tank.

Please try to give me then a good reason for a new player to choose Caldari.

Shoehorn ships into Long/Short Range

No. Bad Idea. Each ship needs to be able to perform as either a long range or short range weapon platform, else there is no variety. If i want to use a HAM Drake, im going to. Try and stop me.
The problem isnt the drake, the problem is mainly heavy missiles and secondarily missiles in general. Leave the drake with its resist bonus.

If there isn't something wrong with the Drake there is something wrong wth all other missile ships.

If there is variaty strongly depends on point of view, a lot of people here say the Drake should be looked at because every one is flying it (No variety).
CCP thinks it does to many things to well (Or at least says so in the meeting)

Now I never will stop you making a HAM drake though I'd suggest they bring in 2 new ships where there is now one will be more HAM friendly than the other.

Keep the Drake but turn it to a Navy faction, maybe adjust it a little to fit that role.

---

For example when you look at the Caracal and the Raven.

Caracal has bonuses on 3 types of missiles, though it's all but impossible to fit one of them the other only works marginal and the only fit that make the ship shine is with rapid assault launchers, The Raven has bonuses for both Cruise and Torp though to low in power, cap, cpu shield and slots to make a working Torp raven that can should anything smaller than BS.
While the Cruise Raven is only usable in PVE.


Now I don't say missiles are fine, Cruise missiles definetly should be looked at.


But I think it would be a better solution to look at those ships like Hybrids, While both Caldari and Galente are able to fit Blasters and railguns, their ships are specialised for one or the other.

That will bring "Variaty" in the number of ships flown and give us the posebillity to fly certain ships more effectively, Would be nice to fly a working Heavy missile T1 Cruiser in to battle. Or a Ham T1 Cruiser for that matter.

You still dont understand,no problem with drakes, but they dont want missile spamming because that's create too much lag.

This month starting out like all the others for the past few years http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

But keep telling yourself and posting your authoritative opinion. It will surely be more persuasive over factual/statistical evidence. Nothing to see here move along> These are not the Drakes you are looking for . . .

Regardless, as both proponents and opponents know, heat death may come before CCP gets around to doing any serious ship rebalancing. Here's to 5 more frigs with the next expansion

Although I've heard of this popular believe, I've a hard time buying it when CCP puts so much time money and effort in, Missile grafics and new ship models.

New Drake will have 8 lauchers, given this (Eve Online Facebook page): www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150961517219394.436182.17614129393&type=1

So it will most probably lose the kinetic bonus (else it would be a dps buff, I doubt that), but what else will it lose? And what will it get instead?

You are wrong. 0.0 fleet battles with 600+ drakes, not equal with pve players at high sec with new missile effects.

Maybe you never see a fleet battle in 0.0.

Check Top 20 http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

RankShipsKills
1 Drake 60432
2 Hurricane 35874
3 Tengu 19113

RankWeaponsKills
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 21684
2 425mm AutoCannon II 14925
3 200mm AutoCannon II 10490

Most used ship in 0.0 is Drake because they have massive shield HP with enough high resists.
This is why easy to tank them with logistic ships.

A smaller ordinary fleetbattle in 0.0 : http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13451706

Check how many drake used there.

I think you're missing the point. He's not disputing that the Drake is widely used in massive 0.0 battles. His point was that missiles aren't such a significant issue that CCP is actively trying to discourage their use.

The Drake changes are part of the adjustments that will be made to all ships as part of tiercide. It has nothing to do with missiles.

Also, that battle report... wtf? Why are there so many CFC members on both sides of the engagement? I don't understand what happened there.

Most used ship in 0.0 is Drake because they have massive shield HP with enough high resists.
This is why easy to tank them with logistic ships.

I think you're missing the point. He's not disputing that the Drake is widely used in massive 0.0 battles. His point was that missiles aren't such a significant issue that CCP is actively trying to discourage their use.

The Drake changes are part of the adjustments that will be made to all ships as part of tiercide. It has nothing to do with missiles.

Also, that battle report... wtf? Why are there so many CFC members on both sides of the engagement? I don't understand what happened there.

Really and to decrease lag you give it a RoF bonus.

Good point. Higher ROF means more missiles on the field. If this was done in the interest of decreasing lag it's a pretty poor choice.

But on the other side the Drakes will be easy to kill in fleet warfare and as such might potentially lag more at first but not for long...

It will take time to get people away from Fleet Drake habits, however if done right Drakes will be too short lived to be the cheap-fleet mainstay as it is right now, but in return be way more fun for roams and other small stuff :-)

Pinky

-20 to 25% shield

There's 3 dominant issues with the drake:

Remove the resist bonus and replace it with a flight time bonus.

Remove 150 base power grid so a drake can't fit so many ******* extenders so easily.

Remove the drone bay and quit giving every god damn ship in game a drone bay you ******** fucks... drones are not meant to be in every ******* ship.

I don't think nerving it to dust will be a good step.

I understand there is a blob problem, (witch is something different than CCP don't wantinhg us to use missile ships) but that shouldn't be done by making it useless.

I don't have the math but -20 to 25% shield and the removal of the resistance bonus will make it compleet and utter useless for heavy assault missiles wich isn't a bad thing if you'd create a second ship for Assault missile launchers. and fit the current drake as a base for a Navy BC, that will probebly price it arround 150 - 200 mil isk for the hull.

That will reduce the blods as well.

No, this is not true. Already the drakes have atleast +20% HP advantage than any BC.

Check this out:

Harbinger with 1600 plate +3x trimark rigs has ~16000 armor (hard to fitting, need smaller med guns). 65k EHP
Brutix with 1600 plate +3x trimark rigs has ~16300 armor (hard to fitting, need smaller med guns). 61k EHP
Hurricane with 1600 plate +3x trimark rigs has ~16800 armor. 59k EHP
Drakes with 2x shield extenders +3x CDFE rigs has ~21400 shield (fitteable to HAM) 96.5K EHP

I hope you see the differences.

Yes but its a bonus to one group, not all of them at once. The drake problem was never just it's DPS, but the DPS/Tank ratio.

It is the same issue with the Dramiel, Having a ship be really good at one thing is fine. Having a ship that is really good at EVERY thing is bad.

In which case, what is the drake bad at?

Speed? Perma-MWD drake blobs are very common.
Range? Not with heavy missiles
DPS? pretty good with kinetic missiles which aren't often a default resistance.
Tank? Default 20-25% resistances make it pretty awesome in tank.
Cap warfare? Passive tank and missiles don't use cap.
Ewar? Sensor strength is about the only thing it is average on.

Compare this to say, a Harbinger or hell any Gallente BC.

You forgets what drakes sacrifice for this, spped, manuverability, and sig. Their sig is larger than a carrier, and their base speed is slow as ****. Nano/MWD drakes seek to fix those problems, but sacrifice DPS to do it. A drake can do alot of things well, but just not all at once.

No, this is not true. Already the drakes have atleast +20% HP advantage than any BC.

Check this out:

Harbinger with 1600 plate +3x trimark rigs has ~16000 armor (hard to fitting, need smaller med guns). 65k EHP
Brutix with 1600 plate +3x trimark rigs has ~16300 armor (hard to fitting, need smaller med guns). 61k EHP
Hurricane with 1600 plate +3x trimark rigs has ~16800 armor. 59k EHP
Drakes with 2x shield extenders +3x CDFE rigs has ~21400 shield (fitteable to HAM) 96.5K EHP

I hope you see the differences.

Shield cane?


lso, I'm not sure why people think CCP cares about missile use in 0.0. They don't, it doesn't increase server load enough to warrant changing ship balance or the weapons used on a ship.

It's the resist bonus and being tier 2. Fit a 1600 plate etc on a prophecy and it starts comparing favorably to a drake, but whoops not tier 2 base armor hp. And whoops nowhere near the range on the weapons, etc.

You wrong too:
Check datas

Prophecy with 1600 plate +3x trimark rigs has ~17100 armor (hard to fitting, need smaller med guns). 88.8k EHP
24km shot range with scorch vs. 75km shot range. -250 m/s speed differences, hard to manage the cap because laser cap useage.

Lol, I wasn't disagreeing with you. Also, you just proved the validity of my statment. Harb 65k ehp, Brutix 61k, Cane (plated) 59k, Cane (shield) 49k, Drakes - 96.5 . . . Prophecy 88.8 which would be around 96.5 or more like the Drake if the prophesy had a tier 2 base armor hp

The point is it is the intersection of the higher tier 2 base hp and the resist bonus that create the huge buffer advantage of the Drake over other BCs. Were the Prophecy a tier 2 ship with the higher hp it would sync with the resist bonus similarly. That is what is unique with the Drake. And well also for pve the absurd skewing of the overall BC shield regen stats.

Why does people suddenly compare a tier 2 battlecruiser with brutix?
And why do people suddenly compare a Drake using 2 vital medslots to get an extra 5,5k shield with ships using 1 plate in a lowslot getting 4,2k armor (Besides I have a Harbinger easily fitting 2 plates)?

The ships have about equal amount of slots and PG/CPU to match the modules so even though extenders take less PG the Drake doesn't have as much PG as the armor ships. shield and armor have different pro's and con's but that particular complaint is far from anything we can use in the debate...

I think CCP plan to remove the resistance bonus and replace it with a missile velocity bonus (buff for HAMs and nice to hit targets at range faster). To compensate they want to give the Drake a RoF bonus basically giving 33% better damage with all missiles rather than just 25% to kinetic (traded for lower alpha).

Whatever else happening with the Drake will likely be part of the big balance of battlecruisers coming likely in autumn 2013 and unless they want time to check how the bonus change affects the Drake I don't see how they will change the Drake until then...

Tell that to CCP... It's how they bonused the caracal and raven :-)
Obviously creating fleet monsters widely used to lag out the server cluster?

I agree missile velocity is not a great bonus for a ship with long range missiles, however it's still a good buff to HAMs. And no the Harbinger isn't difficult to fit though you will obviously compromise a little:

Before you start reacting on the fit plz notice it was only to stop the debate about how Drake could fit 2 extenders when other ships could only fit 1 plate. Setup has flaws but still a purpose. Evemail me if you don't like me but try to keep the Drake debate on track plz. This has about 23k armor (90k EHP) when solo as well as 590 dps incl. 430 dps from the guns.

[Harbinger, Brick]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 200
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Warp Scrambler II

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
[empty high slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

I hope not, that's not handling to missile spamming and drake blobs, thats would be just generating more drakes on battlefields and would be create a new missile sniper boat which can to shot over 100km. It's a bad idea.

And many-many raven used in pvp :D Nice try.

But do you know i can fit 3x shield extender to drake which has 29k shield HP and has 100k EHP and 510 DPS without wasting any rig or other slot.

Lol, I wasn't disagreeing with you. Also, you just proved the validity of my statment. Harb 65k ehp, Brutix 61k, Cane (plated) 59k, Cane (shield) 49k, Drakes - 96.5 . . . Prophecy 88.8 which would be around 96.5 or more like the Drake if the prophesy had a tier 2 base armor hp

The point is it is the intersection of the higher tier 2 base hp and the resist bonus that create the huge buffer advantage of the Drake over other BCs. Were the Prophecy a tier 2 ship with the higher hp it would sync with the resist bonus similarly. That is what is unique with the Drake. And well also for pve the absurd skewing of the overall BC shield regen stats.

Oh come on Pinky, sure you created a brick Harby with ok damage, but what is the range on that? EFT and Pyfa can calculate raw dps for you but do you really have to mess around with graphing that damage to know the advantage of damage over range with HMLs on a Drake?

BTW, here's an easy fix CCP could do right now. Simply give each tier 2 BC the same shield, armor, and structure hp stats as their tier 1 BC counterpart. No messing with slots, hardpoints, or bonuses. Tier 2 would still keep their extra slot, and better ship bonuses, but they would not also have the increased hp advantage. That change alone might breath some new life into tier 1 and HACs, although probably not. Still it's easy to do and hardly an inadvertent game breaker, which happens with buffs mostly anyway.

Lets see this 3x Shield Extender fit.

The range is 10km with short range ammo and 24km with scorch.
The drakes easily can manage this short distances. More EHP, more speed etc.

Feel the pain.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/Drake3LSE.jpg


And dont forget your CFC drakes not need scramblers or warp disruptor, you can change that to EM Ward amplifier II.
Lets check the defensive parameters when we change the warp disruptor to passive EM resist.

~27200Shield HP, EHP ~117k, resists without overheat 74/63/72/77 (76/66/75/79 with Invu Field overheat)
WTF; Shield passive regeneration without any shield booster or active repairer 77.3 HP/sec (696HP until 9 seconds) which is much more than 2x t2 medium armor repairing (2x320HP/9sec). It's insane.

Or another option a second invu field instead of warp disruptor:
~27200Shield HP, EHP ~131.1k !!!, resists without overheat 66/73/80/83 (71/77/83/86 with Invu Fields overheat)

Just remember this is a CFC drake fitt (no warp disruptor):

[Drake, CFC DrakeFleet Pro]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
EM Ward Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hornet EC-300 x5

The fights now in 0.0 because drake blobs : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DC5P9xkyKs
Anchor use perma mwd and spamming missile.

It's about time the Drake was balanced. It's been overpowered far too long. This kind of says it all: http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=top20

RankShips Kills
1 Drake 111831
2 Hurricane 55525
3 Tengu 27439
4 Thrasher 26842
5 Tornado 26645

You can argue and discuss wheather the ship is OP or not but in the end of the day it's hard to refute the cold hard numbers. People aren't stupid they choose the best tool for the job. The Drake has been this tool for a looooong time now.

[quote=Ribikoka]Pinky Denmark i think you trying to evade this post. Underpowered drake lol.

As I said before the real problem is the Drake being cheap...

****

Ribikoka - if you don't quote me properly don't quote me at all...

The Drake might not be cheap, however it's a cheap fleet ship compared to using battleships
It's difficult to kill and the range makes it somewhat flexible. If you have 250+ ships it doesn't really matter if you have poor dps and the price to lose a fleet is so much cheaper than throwing away 250+ tier 3 battleships (because if you play ball with this many people you will eventually get bend over :-)

PinkKnife - Prophecy is a tier 1 battlecruiser and a horrible comparison...
Also if signature doesn't matter why do you think Titans were nerfed? Thats because there were blapping at Drakes and Battleships from 50km away and killing them...
The Drake is obviously a nasty beast in the right hands and the right situations, but in all honesty the range issue is a weapon technical issue and not to blaim on the Drake since it doesn't have any range bonus (yet).

Pinky