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Certificates: Good Idea; Bad Execution

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Red Flag	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:32:00 - [1] Edited by: Red Flag on 14/01/2009 02:34:19 Why does someone need Multi-Tasking to get Core Competency Standard? (I mean, I see that it's part of Core Targeting Standard, which is needed for Core Competency Standard.) I've been playing Eve since 2005, PvP is what I do, and I've never needed more then five targets. Sure, sure, sure six or eight targets can be handy. More targets is useful, I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying, when I'm trying to help out a new player (which the certificates are for, right? To point people in the right direction.) Should a new player really be wasting time on Targeting V so they can get Multi-Tasking 1 at the "standard" level? They've got shield skills, engineering skills, and such to be training! Multi-Tasking should be Core Targeting Improved or Core Targeting Elite. Not standard! I don't think they need more then Targeting Level III for "standard". I also don't think I'm alone on this, am I?
Red Flag	Posted - 2009.01.15 08:35:00 - [2] I've been looking at ships. Multi-Tasking 1 would give someone the skills to target eight targets, right? Yet, many ships can only target six ships! Why should anyone train the skill to lock more targets then their ship(s) can before they learn the other skills to fly a ship properly? I care about this, not because I want or need certificates. I care about this because I would like to be able to tell new members to train certificates up, and not have them waist their time on skills they don't need. Red Flag Poet, Prophet, Pirate
xVx dreadnaught	Posted - 2009.01.15 08:43:00 - [3] /signed The guy des have a point. Why send raw recruites on skill sinks when you want them playing the game??? Especially having so many "req 5 skills" for standard. It also detracts away from the special feeling you get when you get your first skill to 5... I think aurora should even give you a congrats whenever you get level 5!
Huan CK Gallente GK inc. R.U.R.	Posted - 2009.01.15 12:18:00 - [4] I agree. Tehre's alot of things in certificated that makes even long-time players smash their heads into walls, saying "what the hell where they thinking here!". Why don't you make seperate certificates for armor and shield tank for example? If you want to refer people to certificates related to tank, they require both, armor and shield skills. That's just stupid. Same goes for targeting. As mentioned above, hardly anyone needs multitasking one, let aside the whole multitasking skill. With level 1 you get 8 targets, nothing can lock more than 8 targets, if I recall correct, so why not just give the 8th one with targeting 5? The whole skill is superfluent. And I agree with all those level 5 skills. For improved certificates, level 4 skills should be ok. Save all the level 5 skills for elite certificates. The most level 5 skills you'd probably start after having a core set at level 4. It doesn't make sense to have a selected 2-3 lvl 5 skills, while you still use lvl 2-3 skills and t1 stuff. A bit more thought and common sense should have been invested into the whole certificate system. Nice idea, bad execution
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.15 12:19:00 - [5] needs fixing or expanding
Super spikinator	Posted - 2009.01.15 12:37:00 - [6] You are correct. There are some minor issues within the certificate system, such as multitasking as you mentioned (does it really require targeting V? I just clicked on it and start training it, I didn't even look at the prerequisites)
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:47:00 - [7] There are more professions available as your owns. Personally i fly a ship being handy with 10 locked target. And yes i need all of the 10 slots.
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:30:00 - [8] Originally by: Kel Nissa There are more professions available as your owns. Personally i fly a ship being handy with 10 locked target. And yes i need all of the 10 slots. That's hardly the argument here.. The argument was that multitasking shouldn't be required to state that someone has a 'standard' level of ship operations (as Core Competency - Standard would imply). It would belong in the Core Targeting- Improved or Elite, which would NOT be a pre-req for Core Competency - Standard. System Influence
Red Flag	Posted - 2009.01.25 20:03:00 - [9] Originally by: Super spikinator You are correct. There are some minor issues within the certificate system, such as multitasking as you mentioned (does it really require targeting V? I just clicked on it and start training it, I didn't even look at the prerequisites) It's not that you need "Targeting V" to get Multitasking that's the problem. It's that you need "Multitasking" for a low-end certificate.
Marcus Right Minmatar Pilots of Damnation R-I-P	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:41:00 - [10] I could see how multitasking could be useful. I myself have never needed more then five targets in all my time playing Eve. It does beg the question, "What were they thinking? Making it required for 'standard'?"
Erim Solfara Amarr House of Solfara	Posted - 2009.01.27 02:57:00 - [11] Core compentency BASIC requires Core Integrity BASIC, which has shield management III in it, I'm Amarr, I fly solely Amarr ships, why on earth would I bother training any shield skills? I've got 30 million skillpoints, do I not meet a basic core integrity level? (I actually meet the Elite requirements, aside from shield management). Agreed with more specific certificates chains for different races or playstyles, e.g. armour/shield tanking
Temo Jick Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:17:00 - [12] I just want to agree that the implementation of the cirtificate system realy has been quite poor, and multi-tasking realy is a very good example of why. I recently returned from a brake that started before this update and was quite shocked to lern how barly competant I am in areas I had before though myself specualised. At least thats what these cirtificates would have me belive. I might almost suspect that cirtificates are realy there just to get us to sink more time into usless skills by playing on our vanity. It is always darkest just before the dawn. Wise man say this best time to steal neighbors newspaper.
SickSeven	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:01:00 - [13] +1 The certificate system is a waste of time. I looked at them the first day, saw how ridiculous the requirements were, and never opened that window again. I've got 18mil skill points and only have like 3 certificates. What a joke.
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:10:00 - [14] Ships capable of more than 7: Marauders Logistics Carriers Motherships Titans Modules capable of extending a ships target limit: Auto Targeting (+2/+3) Highslot Signal Amplifiers (+1/+2) Lowslot Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Halostorm	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:14:00 - [15] Edited by: Halostorm on 27/01/2009 09:15:40 Logistics ships are your only real argument for getting multitasking, which certainly isn't a required role for 99.9% of the pilots in EVE. EDIT: Also, requiring the resist modules for passive shield tanking is ******ed, find me a pilot that fits specific passives over invulns?
Fyrkraag Caldari The Knights Templar	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:47:00 - [16] I agree with the original poster. A little review of the certificate system is in order so that it can be properly fine-tuned into giving better advice. --------- TKT - Fyrkraag The Knights Templar - Achievement with style: Maturity, integrity, respect.
Red Flag	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Erim Solfara Core compentency BASIC requires Core Integrity BASIC, which has shield management III in it, I'm Amarr, I fly solely Amarr ships, why on earth would I bother training any shield skills? I've got 30 million skillpoints, do I not meet a basic core integrity level? (I actually meet the Elite requirements, aside from shield management). Agreed with more specific certificates chains for different races or playstyles, e.g. armour/shield tanking Actually, I don't see shield resistance in the Core Copentency requirments, or am I missing something? Originally by: Washell Olivaw Ships capable of more than 7: Marauders Logistics Carriers Motherships Titans Modules capable of extending a ships target limit: Auto Targeting (+2/+3) Highslot Signal Amplifiers (+1/+2) Lowslot Yes, I knew about the modules but who's going to waste a slot for one of those modules, really? As for the ships, thanks for that information. Is it just me, or are all the ships he listed ELITE type ships? They may become 'standard' in the future the way the Hulk is the standard mining ship now. However, with the except of Logistic Ships, the other ships listed have a pretty big skill train time, right? So, we're trying to tell the new players they should get Multitasking 1, so they can lock 9 targets, when most ships are only able to lock 7 or less targets (without special modules that no one wastes a slot on)? =-=-= I've been looking through the rest of the certificates. I think the rest are pretty reasonable actually, though I'm all eyes to see other peoples opinions. Many complaints I've seen like "Shield Resistance" needed for "Core Competency" haven't been correct, (Though I'd like to back them up since they're backing me up, but I can't.) While we're on the topic though, I believe a few more certificates that do not exist yet could be handy. For example, "Ship Class" certificates. "Amarr Battleship Pilot", "Recon Pilot", and "Command Ship Pilot" to name a few. That way CEOs could use certificates for recruiting, and pilots don't have to undock in every ship they could possibly fly just to prove they can. (Though trust has worked in the past, and if someone claims they can fly something but then they can't a CEO is likely to just throw 'em out or whatever they feel is appropriate.) Red Flag Poet, Prophet, Pirate
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:22:00 - [18] Originally by: Red Flag Yes, I knew about the modules but who's going to waste a slot for one of those modules, really? If I have a spare high and cpu, I stick in an auto targeter. I like having 9 or 10 targets available. You would too, once you experienced it. It's not something you need, but it's mighty nice to have. It's like displays. A 20" will do fine, until you sit behind a 30" for a bit.
Kal Shanai	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:40:00 - [19] If you go by the certs, supposedly basic Amarr Soldiers shieldtank. I'd really wanna see the reasoning behind this O.o
Navarre Fuego	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:51:00 - [20] I would like Corp-issued certificates where corps identify Prereqs and publish the certs in the same way as decoratinos, but allow corp members (only) to claim them. This would allow corp executives allow extended Mining hangar access, for example, to those pilots capable of flying Barges and Orca. Be even better if you could set ownership of certain corp certificates as the "key" to entering specific ships, for example : consider a corp salvager that needs the PRs for Destroyer, Salvage rigs, tractors, salvagers and minimum capacitor skills... "You do not posses the required certificate for this ship - please contact your corporation executives for more information"
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:16:00 - [21] Originally by: Halostorm Edited by: Halostorm on 27/01/2009 09:15:40 Logistics ships are your only real argument for getting multitasking, which certainly isn't a required role for 99.9% of the pilots in EVE. EDIT: Also, requiring the resist modules for passive shield tanking is ******ed, find me a pilot that fits specific passives over invulns? I would guess... Those with high shield res skills? There are passive tank fits besides the drake's 2x inv field fitting, and the res skills are useful when you've been drained for cap.
Mikal Drey Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:57:00 - [22] hey hey whats really odd is that out of all the certs i felt that the core ones were the most spot on. I recently trained targetting V and multitasking 3 purely to get the complete set of core elites and having 10 lockable targets have really opened my eyes. as to other issues mentioned alreay I too and a specific raced character and some of standard certificates would require me to cross train. I consider myself to be very well skilled and each ship i fly is nearly maxed out. some of the certificates for Leadership etc would require me to get armor warfare etc but i will never ever need it of use it :/ i have skirmish to 5+4 and im still not considered form most of the leadership certificates. Its very hard to remember that the certificates are only a guide to what set of skills you need or at least should be aiming towards. They are usefull for newer players but essentiually they have little to no meaning. one of my other issues with certificates is that they arent balanced correctly. With skills every skill has Level 1-5 but with certs some seem to skip a level. I think that all certificates should advance : basic, standard, improved, advanced, elite. eg. Refinery foreman - Basic, Standard, Improved, Elite Battleship Projectile Turrets - Basic, Standard, Elite For me to get the elite BS certs would require me to get L5's in the spec skills. what weirds me out is that i have 10mil in gunnery (projectile based) can use Capital turrets and have my spec skills to 4. Surely this would deserve improved or at least advanced :/
Aya Sin Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:40:00 - [23] Certificates could be a very nice guideline for new players, but I think there are more problems than just the armor-tanking and targeting issues mentioned in this thread. Another thing that should be improved is the "Recommended"-tab of items and ships. Currently it only lists the first level of required certificates, but not which skills and/or certificates are required by those toplevel certificates themselves. The player would have to open multiple "Show Info"-windows to find out which skills really are recommended. I'd really like to see this changed to a treeview much like the "Prerequisites"-tab, which lists all required skills as well as their dependencies.
WardogX Minmatar Outkasts	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:03:00 - [24] Didn't they make it clear this is stage one of the certificate system with more changes and improvements to follow? After all there is nothing in certificate system for capital ships either. Just give it times guys... it had potential to be a good training guide for skills some people might overlook.
Eve Spair Caldari Nova Prospekt Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.28 07:47:00 - [25] There is also logical fallacies in the reqs for some certs. take refining foreman standard. (i think thats the name) It requires scrapmetal processing lvl 2 and metalurgy lvl 2. now what the hell? scrapmetal processing requires metalurgy 5 in order to be trained.
Erim Solfara Amarr House of Solfara	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:41:00 - [26] Originally by: Red Flag Originally by: Erim Solfara Core compentency BASIC requires Core Integrity BASIC, which has shield management III in it, I'm Amarr, I fly solely Amarr ships, why on earth would I bother training any shield skills? I've got 30 million skillpoints, do I not meet a basic core integrity level? (I actually meet the Elite requirements, aside from shield management). Agreed with more specific certificates chains for different races or playstyles, e.g. armour/shield tanking Actually, I don't see shield resistance in the Core Copentency requirments, or am I missing something? Yes, it's not a requirement for Core Compentency, but it's a requirement for Core Integrity, which itself is required for Core Competency, that was said in the original post. Core Comp basic reqs: Core Capacitor Basic Core Fitting Basic Core Navigation Basic Core Targeting Basic Core Integrity Basic Core Integrity reqs: Mechanic L3 Hull Upgrades L3 Shield Management L3
Red Flag	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:03:00 - [27] Originally by: Washell Olivaw Originally by: Red Flag Yes, I knew about the modules but who's going to waste a slot for one of those modules, really? If I have a spare high and cpu, I stick in an auto targeter. I like having 9 or 10 targets available. You would too, once you experienced it. It's not something you need, but it's mighty nice to have. It's like displays. A 20" will do fine, until you sit behind a 30" for a bit. I never said it wouldn't be handy, I just said it's not as important as other skills. It's especially not as important as other skills for new players. Originally by: Navarre Fuego I would like Corp-issued certificates where corps identify Prereqs and publish the certs in the same way as decoratinos, but allow corp members (only) to claim them. This would allow corp executives allow extended Mining hangar access, for example, to those pilots capable of flying Barges and Orca. Be even better if you could set ownership of certain corp certificates as the "key" to entering specific ships, for example : consider a corp salvager that needs the PRs for Destroyer, Salvage rigs, tractors, salvagers and minimum capacitor skills... "You do not posses the required certificate for this ship - please contact your corporation executives for more information" I think corp mad certificates (like medals) is a really good idea. I don't think there should be any automation where certificates automatically give access; I foresee corp thieves becoming a bigger problem (again) if something "certificates = access" was implemented. However, "Corporate Certificates" could be very handy for keeping track member capabilities and useful for granting special awards and such to members. For example, a corporation might grant a member free Hulk upon reaching a certain corporate certificate, or (as is common in many corporations) give members free carriers or dreadnoughts as awards for achieving certain skills. I still believe the current certificates need a do-over/adjustment/fix. Originally by: WardogX Didn't they make it clear this is stage one of the certificate system with more changes and improvements to follow? After all there is nothing in certificate system for capital ships either. Just give it times guys... it had potential to be a good training guide for skills some people might overlook. Simple Answer: No Long Answer: Then they can use this thread as a partial guideline for when they refine certificates. Originally by: Aya Sin Certificates could be a very nice guideline for new players, but I think there are more problems than just the armor-tanking and targeting issues mentioned in this thread. Another thing that should be improved is the "Recommended"-tab of items and ships. Currently it only lists the first level of required certificates, but not which skills and/or certificates are required by those toplevel certificates themselves. The player would have to open multiple "Show Info"-windows to find out which skills really are recommended. I'd really like to see this changed to a treeview much like the "Prerequisites"-tab, which lists all required skills as well as their dependencies. I find it interesting that they recommend certain certificates for covert ops and recon ships. For example, I don't think a Falcon really needs any sort of shield or armor tanking skill, most falcons fit all ECM (occasionally ECCM) in the mids and then ECM boosters in the lows. I've seen many falcon pilots that don't even bother to fit missiles. While you COULD shield tank a Falcon, or armor tank one for that matter (Plating out a Scropion isn't all that uncommon) I don't think the any of the certificates except ECM really needs to be recommended for the Falcon. (And if a player wants to shield tank, armor tank, or speed tank his/her Falcon: They don't need a certificate to recommend that they can. They can figure that out on their own after they start flying a Falcon and say, 'Gee, I think it would be better if I." Red Flag Poet, Prophet, Pirate
Red Flag	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:05:00 - [28] Originally by: Erim Solfara Originally by: Red Flag Originally by: Erim Solfara Core compentency BASIC requires Core Integrity BASIC, which has shield management III in it, I'm Amarr, I fly solely Amarr ships, why on earth would I bother training any shield skills? I've got 30 million skillpoints, do I not meet a basic core integrity level? (I actually meet the Elite requirements, aside from shield management). Agreed with more specific certificates chains for different races or playstyles, e.g. armour/shield tanking Actually, I don't see shield resistance in the Core Copentency requirments, or am I missing something? Yes, it's not a requirement for Core Compentency, but it's a requirement for Core Integrity, which itself is required for Core Competency, that was said in the original post. Core Comp basic reqs: Core Capacitor Basic Core Fitting Basic Core Navigation Basic Core Targeting Basic Core Integrity Basic Core Integrity reqs: Mechanic L3 Hull Upgrades L3 Shield Management L3 Ah! Good Catch! Yes, that doesn't make sense to me either. Red Flag Poet, Prophet, Pirate
MrWendell	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:17:00 - [29] If you read the descriptions, many elite skills say things along the lines of "This skill proves you are good at flying cruisers" etc so i'm pretty sure there's gonna be improvements and additions. The shield management thing is a slight bit of madness but they could easily solve that by making it so you need either shield management or an armour tank equivalent rather than one of them or both.
lollerwaffle Sileo In Pacis	Posted - 2009.01.30 04:46:00 - [30] Edited by: lollerwaffle on 30/01/2009 04:47:17 with regards to shield management/hull upgrades/mechanic... Why would you not want as much HP as u can get? For armor tankers, this means an extra 5% of dmg taken before u start having the dmg affect your tank. For shield tankers, often, close fights that bleed into armor/hull would be lost without those extra hitpoints (and a damage control II). Just my 2cents regarding those skills in particular. Agree that the certs are silly (I've become a cert ***** and wanna get elite cert in most stuffs, but Multitasking? Seriously.) I fail at spelling
Ramirez Dora Small Hadron Collider	Posted - 2009.01.30 04:53:00 - [31] Yeah, shield management increases base HP for all ships you fly. It IS one of the core skills tbh. More HP means more survivability. 25% extra shield can add a whole lot of EHP, increasingly so as the ships get bigger.
Aya Sin Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:43:00 - [32] Originally by: Ramirez Dora Yeah, shield management increases base HP for all ships you fly. It IS one of the core skills tbh. More HP means more survivability. 25% extra shield can add a whole lot of EHP, increasingly so as the ships get bigger. Of course it is an improvement, but not by as much as most other armortanking skills would do.
Erim Solfara Amarr House of Solfara	Posted - 2009.01.30 20:54:00 - [33] but as an amarr pilot, skill training time can be spent in much more profitable areas, I'm not bothered about extra shield hp when my shields have no resists anyway, it's not a core skill if it's irrelevant to my tank, whether my armour holds or doesn't is independant of my shields, and the slight buffer that more shield hp gives me is never gonna make a big enough difference to me.
Red Flag	Posted - 2009.01.31 23:34:00 - [34] More hit points are of course always good, but if you're an armor tank and you spend all your time on getting every possible shield skill just for a few extra hitpoints; You'd waste a year of training for a what? Ten, fifty hit point gain? The extra hit points from shields don't really mean squat if your an armor tank. Passive/Buffer Tank or not. They especially don't mean squat to an active armor tanker. Red Flag Poet, Prophet, Pirate
Lythandros	Posted - 2009.01.31 23:56:00 - [35] I agree that the certificate system is a great idea, however as pointe out, it needs a major overhaul in terms of skills required for the certificates. A reward system for certification could be in the form of ship based certificate 'relevant' bonuses. A 1% bonus per tier would make them useful but not affect balance of ship setups as the certificates would only be relevant to the ship. Eg core skills add bonuses to all skills in the certificate, agility, top speed, targeting speed you get the idea.

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