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Learning skills: good game design?

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Chaaaz Exploring Blind TECH	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:10:00 - [31] I actually think learning skills are a good idea... there pretty much like advanced education which the char chooses to do or not. If you choose to do them you learn other things quicker. Makes perfect sense to me. Look at the world around you, inteligence (sp) is not defined by what age you are.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:13:00 - [32] Originally by: Chaaaz Look at the world around you, inteligence (sp) is not defined by what age you are. With certain exceptions ofcourse... But, the whole thing comes down to this: If we could endure the training and are still here, it outweighs the effort and possible problems caused by removal. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:27:00 - [33] /me Sighs Learnings are not mandatory, the only mistake they made was when they where introduced they had the basic ones @ level 5 - this should of been level 4 you don't need to get them all to level 5 [and spend 3mnths doing it] - that is just the fools way SP are not the way you can win at eve - See Dr Caymus for proof. 4/4 or 4/3 are fine for most people [do the longer ones later] you'll only start recovering the time loss after 3yrs of training anyway +3 implants are cheep ... I would also suggest another school - one that gives you 900k in pure learnings [I think 4/4 will give you 950K SP - so drop a couple of advanced to +3] - that way you can be given the start people seem to desire
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:28:00 - [34] the point is u can always goto 0.0 raise a few billion isk and purchase a character for sale in a specific role as an alt and buy it thro legal means.
Tellnan Matkiel Gallente The Industrial Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:47:00 - [35] It's a choice. They are not mandatory or required in way, shape, or form. It's a trade-off, like so many things in EVE. Put in the time now for payoff later, or not. Good practice.
Taua Roqa Minmatar Silhouette Soliloquy	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:50:00 - [36] are they fun? no. so my answer to them being good game design is a resounding no. though you could always argue that a game doesn't have to be fun, and doubtless people will.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:53:00 - [37] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/01/2009 11:56:03 Originally by: Taua Roqa are they fun? no. so my answer to them being good game design is a resounding no. though you could always argue that a game doesn't have to be fun, and doubtless people will. Well let's see. Are market skills fun, or would it be more fun if people were able to set the same amount of orders for free? Is processing skills fun, or should they be only dependent on the process % givne in stations? Let's see....are character attributes fun at all, or should the skills be killed altogether and just make all training times same? Fun is not always the best way to measure these Actually, if we made EVE just "fun", everyone could pick any ship+fit from the stations, go off and pewpew to their hearts content, then choose something else when they pop whilst trying to stick the "i own this" flag up eachothers exhaust pipes
Napro Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:01:00 - [38] Learning skills give noobs a sense of accomplishment that a +5% increase to Small Turret Damage would never give. Keep them in game. Nobody has to sit in the station while training the Learning skills either. Don't know where you got that from. Takes all of 15 minutes to train a new skill to Level 1... True noobs don't know enough about Eve to know what they want to do anyway. The smart thing for them would be to train Learnings while actually learning how to play (ironic isn't it) I can still remember my first few months of Eve. Wondering what that red plasma coming out of the ships (Nos) was... and what skill to use it. Or why some ships were emitting shockwaves (sensor boosters). These are all things that can be used after 15 minutes train time.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:12:00 - [39] Personally I think learning skills are a horrible idea. Absolutely **ing horrible. I bullied a friend into trying EVE (I think it was the part about scooping tiny frozen corpses into his cargo-hold and being able to wage psychological warfare in local chat that won him over) and he trained his learning to 4/3 (on someone else's advice) before he did anything else. His comment after his first fortnight was that EVE was "Like progressquest". Progress Quest is a bit of a classic. It's an RPG parody. You just hit "play" on it and a progress bar steadily climbs and your character levels up. There's no other user interaction. I can see his point. How's that for a New Player Experience? EVE has many fun gameplay features and admirable attributes but I think for new players it really does a good job of hiding them. I can honestly see no plausible argument for not scrapping learning skills other than this weird "Well I had to do this ** thing so everyone else should have to" mentality. I've done that particular long haul on a couple of characters now and I honestly think it does nothing for the game, save making it really difficult to convince most of my friends to play. EVE is so much more entertaining when you can fly one or two ships with some degree of competence. I'm at the point where I've already got most of the core skills for at least some of the new ships I want to train and I'd forgotten just how much of a plod EVE was to begin with. I think learning skills just slow down getting to that point where it becomes fun massively. As it is now I feel like the best suggestion I could make to friends who do try the trial is that they make a character, leave it to skill up for a month then come back and actually play.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:25:00 - [40] As said, don't train learning skills from get-go to full extent. If i went to, let' bring this old guy in, WoW and decided to train fishing and other such extra activities to full extent, i'd be bored too
Mordekai Bloodwake Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:36:00 - [41] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/01/2009 07:46:13 Umm...before learning skills? Anyway, no need, as EVE is a game where you can play with the big boys no matter what your skills are. Learning skills, well, you can even do without them completely. SP means nothing in this game after first 2mil. Basically A tip for new players, learn learning skills while you sleep/offline and learn other skills while you play. Much more fun. Very well said!!, its nice to see players that understand Eve-Online.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:41:00 - [42] Edited by: Davina Braben on 14/01/2009 12:41:48 Originally by: Sheriff Jones As said, don't train learning skills from get-go to full extent. If i went to, let' bring this old guy in, WoW and decided to train fishing and other such extra activities to full extent, i'd be bored too As I said, not my advice. Lots of people do say that though. You and I are qualified to make that kind of call (that is, to look at a list of skills and prioritise), a newbie probably isn't. They just hear "You need to train this bunch of skills, it'll pay off in a year". WoW is an imperfect analogy anyway, but I'll go along with it. WoW doesn't "require" you to train fishing or herbalism or bandage making before you can do anything else. It does have it's own "grind" in terms of buying skills and the leveling up part but it doesn't make you spend a bunch of time doing your profession stuff before you actually get to "play". Yes, technically making bandages and fishing is playing (I had a friend who had maxed out fishing and magic fishing gloves) but it's not really why people sub. Yeah, I also know that in theory learning skills are optional. It's kind of hard to argue with them when they take a third off your training time for any particular thing though.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:44:00 - [43] True, true, but the problem comes from mis-information of people saying 2max out skills NAU!" Learning skills do take out time to learn new skills, fact, but with "low" skills having such a small training time anyway, you don't need to max them out. You don't even get that big of a bonus if you do. Learn some, learn things you need to explore EVE(like cruiser/frigate/guns), learn more learning(offline as said) before tackling the big skills, and the big skills are things you won't need for a while. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:56:00 - [44] Originally by: Sheriff Jones True, true, but the problem comes from mis-information of people saying 2max out skills NAU!" Learning skills do take out time to learn new skills, fact, but with "low" skills having such a small training time anyway, you don't need to max them out. You don't even get that big of a bonus if you do. Learn some, learn things you need to explore EVE(like cruiser/frigate/guns), learn more learning(offline as said) before tackling the big skills, and the big skills are things you won't need for a while. This is your opinion. It's probably mine too. The advice I generally give entails EVEMON and short/medium term goals. At least then the dull stuff is tempered with the fun stuff. But as I said, plenty of people give different advice. It's not necessarily misinformation either. What they say is true. Training learning skills to 4/3 or whatever will pay off after a certain period of time. And I reiterate that deciding between these approaches really needs you to understand what a point or two of this or that attribute actually means in terms of how long a skill takes to train. It's not at all immediately clear, especially if you've got a friend "helping" you to get into EVE. Saying "Oh, it's just a case of bad advice" isn't really a solution if that's the advice most new players get (I think it is) and if the new player doesn't know it's bad advice. They've probably quit out of boredom by this point, no? Given that you think new players should concentrate on training the stuff they need to enjoy the game anyway how big of a step on from that opinion is it to mine?
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:00:00 - [45] Don't misunderstand, i'm not that much arguing with you. More i talk about it, more i realise what i edited in on my previous psot: we need an up-to-date tutorial which is A: longer and B: more extensive with actual player information. Hell, i'd go as far as say we need volunteer players that would act a part in it. "Go find xxxxx(randomly taken from online volunteers) and form a gang, you'll need help" etc. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:04:00 - [46] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Don't misunderstand, i'm not that much arguing with you. More i talk about it, more i realise what i edited in on my previous psot: we need an up-to-date tutorial which is A: longer and B: more extensive with actual player information. Hell, i'd go as far as say we need volunteer players that would act a part in it. "Go find xxxxx(randomly taken from online volunteers) and form a gang, you'll need help" etc. You could also mitigate the dullness with dual-training (so you're training the entertaining stuff along with the learning skills) and/or with more useful starting characters, possibly at an increased price (so experienced players can still get the barebones alt and train em from scratch). Note also that whatever you say in the tut will be balanced out by the hojillion specialist min-maxer L4 CNR pilots in SWA giving different advice. I'd still favour scrapping learning skills.
Vabjekf	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:19:00 - [47] they should get rid of them, and +attribute implants, and give everyoe +15 to all of their attributes=P They are annoying, ive had to train them up multiple times on multiple characters now. I would gladly get rid of the time ive spent (just finished getting them up to 5/4 on this character even) if it meant i never had to do it in the future.
Schalac Caldari Apocalypse Reign	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:20:00 - [48] Hmm, if they removed learning skills and let me allocate the points elsewhere... I could cap all of my gunnery support skills in one fell swoop and still have some SP left over to play around with. DO IT NOW!!
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:50:00 - [49] money comes rather easily in eve nowadays. SP doesn't. and lets admit it; not even goons are really proof that one doesn't need a 100d skill ship to compete. thats the new player experience these days; - starting with a trial - finding out how annoyingly stupid charisma is - starting a new caldari trial - spending the first pilot license on just learnings, a t2 frig and some lacking support skills - asking himself what progress he actually paid >300m for if it weren't for learning skills, i'd have more (logistics) alt accounts btw
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:02:00 - [50] Originally by: Vabjekf they should get rid of them, and +attribute implants, and give everyoe +15 to all of their attributes=P They are annoying, ive had to train them up multiple times on multiple characters now. I would gladly get rid of the time ive spent (just finished getting them up to 5/4 on this character even) if it meant i never had to do it in the future. The biggest beneficiaries of such a change would not be new players but old ones.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:10:00 - [51] Malcanis, i believe the biggest support for removing learning skills comes from exactly that, old players wanting to get alts faster "up to speed". If we look at it from the original post content, new player experience, we have better solutions(as i've stated.) My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:34:00 - [52] Originally by: Sheriff Jones At the end, 27 days or 30 days is all the same really. It's not actually, say a base characters has 10 skillpoints in a given skill. A modded character has 10 + 10 from skills + 4 from implant set * 1.1 from learning skill = 26 1 mil SP would take close to 28 days without learningskills and implants. 1 mil SP would take close to 11 days with learningskills and implants. Not much difference you say?
Cyrus Brown	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:43:00 - [53] No, learning skills are a terrible game design.
Ralitge boyter Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:49:00 - [54] So hang on you want to tell me that during alpha there where no leanring skills Anyway, removin the leanring skills? No. Why not, because it would not do anything for the new players they would still need to learn all their skills to at least level 3 or 4 to become efficient as you put it. Then people would just start asking to remove the basic fitting skills and the rest of the fitting skills after that. Lets also kill anything below Battelship 5 of course because it takes way to long and without a battleship you do not impress the ladies. On top of that you should not forget that people have been paying CCP for the right to train their skills since 2004, if you now eliminate the first month or so of training these people are going to ask for their money back. I know I would... I mean I have two characters with all learning skills trained to level 5 meaning that I have happily paid CCP $30 for nothign more then to be able to learn other skills a little bit faster then other people. I assume you have done exactly the same and you would most likely not be happy if CCP after a brain fart just chucked that month of training time out of the window. Then there is one other thing a character needs 40M skill points to be effective no this is not WoW and no you do not need to be level 80 to be able to play yes with 5M skill points you can easily kill me and my alt (+110M combined skillpoints) without to much trouble. At 10M skill points you are considered a older player by most people with a brain, at 40M skill points people look at you in awe and by the time you pass 70 people just move out of the way and hope to not **** you off... If 40M skill points was the entry level then no one in their right minds would be playing EVE. I hope from the many comments you get to this post you will realize that you really don't understand to much about this game just yet. ------------------------------------------- Should you disagree with me, well I guess that is because I disagree with you. If you have a problem with that please feel free not to tell me.
Casius Ravendark	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:01:00 - [55] Edited by: Casius Ravendark on 14/01/2009 15:01:53 Well, I am basically brand new to the game(played some EVE when it first came out, then left like 3 months and I am now back) and I have to say, learning skills from a noob perspective are terrible. They basically are like "Invest weeks in this passive skill, so you can train for the good stuff later". Which is fine, but for new players, we'd rather not spend weeks on that kinda thing. I don't mind spending the time training for "Cruiser" or "gunnery" or "missiles" that will have a noticeable and visible effect in game, because those are definitely some of the cooler parts of EVE, getting that new cruiser the first time and smirking as you admire your new ship is great haha, but learning skills, not so much. I'm with the scrap em crowd and expand the tutorial in some way.
Gilmour A Quest Millitia	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:07:00 - [56] Edited by: Gilmour on 14/01/2009 15:09:57 I think Learning skills have always been there. I started late 2003 and they were in the game back then. But yeah, think its a pretty bad design "having to" spend the first 2 months training learning skills before you start developing the character. Everyone who intend to stay with the game does this, and it probably makes the start abit boring. Atleast players start with about 800k SP now. When I started I got like 35k SP :) Think I had 1 level 3 and some at L1, long time ago.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:48:00 - [57] Originally by: DrAtomic Originally by: Sheriff Jones At the end, 27 days or 30 days is all the same really. It's not actually, say a base characters has 10 skillpoints in a given skill. A modded character has 10 + 10 from skills + 4 from implant set * 1.1 from learning skill = 26 1 mil SP would take close to 28 days without learningskills and implants. 1 mil SP would take close to 11 days with learningskills and implants. Not much difference you say? Nope, if you take into consideration that not many learn all to V, tops to IV on advanced and that "not much time learnt" means basic skills to IV. Your example is very biased. It's more like: Basic 10+4 from learning +4 implants = 18 "hardcore" 10+9 from learning +4 implants= 23 LEarning skills don't disallow implants My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Illioe	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:02:00 - [58] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Chaaaz Look at the world around you, inteligence (sp) is not defined by what age you are. With certain exceptions ofcourse... But, the whole thing comes down to this: If we could endure the training and are still here, it outweighs the effort and possible problems caused by removal. You assume that there wouldn't be benefits to their removal. I can guarantee more people would stick with EVE past the trial if there weren't learning skills. The only people who ever seem to complain about their removal are short-sighted people who already trained them, who can't see the potential benefit to the playerbase by their removal. New blood is essential to keeping an MMO growing, or even sustaining, arguably more important than a few old players who would claim to quit over something trivial like this. I can't imagine anyone who is genuinely interested in EVE actually quitting over something like this.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:06:00 - [59] Originally by: Illioe You assume that there wouldn't be benefits to their removal. I can guarantee more people would stick with EVE past the trial if there weren't learning skills. The only people who ever seem to complain about their removal are short-sighted people who already trained them, who can't see the potential benefit to the playerbase by their removal. New blood is essential to keeping an MMO growing, or even sustaining, arguably more important than a few old players who would claim to quit over something trivial like this. I can't imagine anyone who is genuinely interested in EVE actually quitting over something like this. I'm not, i'm saying the problems caused by removal would outweigh it. To counter: I can't imagine anyone who is genuinely interested in EVE actually quitting because of learning skills My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Clair Bear Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:11:00 - [60] I have the important advanced skills at V and I think learning skills were a terrible idea. However, they do two things: One, they are a time investment in eve which makes it harder to quit. Trust me on that one. Two, they go along with the "cold harsh world with consequences" theme. You're free to not train them, and as a result not be as nimble and agile when the nerfbat swings your way. I've quickly adjusted to devs suddenly not wanting anyone to use blasters or fly megathrons. If I didn't have nearly 4 million SP in learnings that might not have happened.

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