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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.01.14 16:16:00 -
[61]
Also it teaches you the valuable lesson of "waiting".
With longer skills especially, a month or two with NO advancement is a reality.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
permion
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Posted - 2009.01.14 16:23:00 -
[62]
Everytime I've unintalled EvE and unSubbed it was learning and learning skill. Not ghost training mind you.
Learning skills are 10x more frustrating than losing a ship to a HighSec Carebear WarDec corp that won't follow you into .4, out gun your unnamed T1 with T2, and have a few more years of training to hold over your head.
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Cristl
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Posted - 2009.01.14 16:27:00 -
[63]
I think learning skills should stay.
They add some depth and require decisions to be made towards character development. Should you train to improve for immediate benefit or sacrifice some time now for future gain.
It takes under 400k sp to reach 4/3 in your learning skills, which provide by far the bulk of the learning benefit*. What needs to be 'nerfed' are:
a) Numpties that tell newbies that they must train learning asap. What they should tell them is to train towards some basic must-haves such as reasonable engineering skill, ability to use afterburners etc. and slot in some learning skills when they can (eg get level 1 and 2 during the first mission and over the first few days. Overnight trains are painless. Maybe aim for the basic learning skills to 4 by the end of the first month. Then get cash and train advanced learning skills to 3 one-by-one as cash allows. Slot in cybernetics and some cheap implants as and when you are able.
b) People who over-egg the custard with claims that ôeve sucks because you need to spend your first two months getting the learning skills upö. No you don't, and 2 months is a huge exaggeration. The initial basic skills to level 4 as above (270k sp) should take a little over 10 days cumulatively (spread, as I suggest, over the first month). After that slip the rest in as needed or able.
* For example at level 4/3 with full +3 implants you have: (34 + 35 +15) *1.08 = 90.72. This compared to (34 + 45 + 20 ) *1.10 = 108.9 at 5/4 with full +4 implants. You train at 83.3% of the vet's rate (over 88% if the fairy iskmother gives you +4s too). Not a big deal û stick to 4/3 until you are faced with a soul-sapping jump drive cal V train as I am û then they help.
Ha - and i typed this in wordpad so screw you phantom forum post eater - no supper for you! |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2009.01.14 16:32:00 -
[64]
I'm in this game for the long haul and have trained my learning skills almost to the max. I like the bonuses i'm getting in shortened train skill time, and hence like the training skills.
If you don't like them cause you need to train 11 alts, i couldn't care less. gtfo.
Hope this was clear and concise enough for you! |
Not Atthegate
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.14 16:35:00 -
[65]
Can imagine that the learingskills suck much for noobs,please keep them and leave all like like is |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.01.14 17:19:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 14/01/2009 17:20:29 Learning skills are a good thing, being able to rush thing (making stuff easy) is NOT the way to go (there's WOW for that). If you don't like doing those learning skills first then... don't do em. If people want to put in effort to (longterm) have a benefit then great for them, if you're unable or unwilling to think long term then don't.
They added learning skills to speed up the process, if you don't like the learning skill system then ask for it to be taken away and NOT adjust learning speed. Removing learning skills while upping the learning speed is silly. It's EASIER... yes but this is not an ADHD FPS, it's a long term MMO.
Next step could be; "hmm, young characters really can't fly BS's very well within a few months, how about we give them those skills right at the start... since it's easier that way". Same arguement, no different.
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.01.14 17:40:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Originally by: DrAtomic
Originally by: Sheriff Jones At the end, 27 days or 30 days is all the same really.
It's not actually, say a base characters has 10 skillpoints in a given skill.
A modded character has 10 + 10 from skills + 4 from implant set * 1.1 from learning skill = 26
1 mil SP would take close to 69 days without learningskills and implants. 1 mil SP would take close to 28 days with learningskills and implants.
Not much difference you say?
Nope, if you take into consideration that not many learn all to V, tops to IV on advanced and that "not much time learnt" means basic skills to IV.
Your example is very biased.
It's more like:
Basic 10+4 from learning +4 implants = 18 "hardcore" 10+9 from learning +4 implants= 23
LEarning skills don't disallow implants
You're making a miscalculation in your math (check evemon) it's base + learningskills + implants * learning skill.
You were saying that the difference was only 3 days without providing any background, I have given the exact math for someone who cares about his attributes and someone who doesnt care about it at all. That difference is 17 days on 1 million sp, no discussion.
Never did I say it was likely that someone wouldnt care about their attributes at all, but it does show the huge impact they have.
But to do the comparision with your figures:
Nothing 10+0+0*0=10 = close to 69 days Basic 10+4+4*1.08=19 = close to 37 days Hardcore 10+9+4*1.1=25 = close to 28 days
Translation; a difference of close to 33% or hardcore gains 1 million sp more per every 111 days compared to basic. Then I see basic using +3's over +4's but let's leave that out of the discussion, do know however that the difference between true hardcore and true basic is larger in reality.
Not so much all the same imho even with the figures you provided.
Ps: I made a miscalc in my previous post where i divided the figure by 60 and 60 again instead of 60 and then 24. - - -
Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.01.14 17:56:00 -
[68]
Realistic basic= 10+7(4/3)+3*1.08=21 = 33 days Realistic hardcore= 10+9(5/4)+4*1.1= 25 = little less then 28 days DrCaymus= 10+10(5/5)+5*1.1=27 = little less then 26 days
or realistic hardcore is 18% better then realistic basic and DrCaymus 21%.
Note that both realistic hardcore and drcaymus loose out on rounding down with an base attribute set of 10 as used in the example. |
Spurty
Caldari Technologic Dance
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Posted - 2009.01.14 17:59:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus I just started skilling up a Falcon alt from scratch.
This is PVP |
Highwind Cid
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Posted - 2009.01.14 18:09:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Sheriff Jones It's the classic "we had to, you have to" thing, no going back and everyone knows this rule
Meh. So players before hand will have to eat a bullet or two. So what? It's happened before, many many times. WTZ comes to mind... People will get over it and continue on.
Personally, for training Learning to V, a couple basics to V, rest of basics and advanced to IV, I wouldn't mind seeing these lame learning skills go . Even if it meant I wouldn't get a single skill point back (though it would be nice to get some type of refund, but if not, not the end of the world) Fortunately I did some research as I was playing and found how learning skills were important to get up early on. Was kind of a bummer, but training time wasn't to to bad. The price was bad for a beginner, but some person actually gave me about 18M Isk to buy my advanced learning books.
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Cristl
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Posted - 2009.01.14 18:12:00 -
[71]
Originally by: DrAtomic
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Originally by: DrAtomic
Originally by: Sheriff Jones At the end, 27 days or 30 days is all the same really.
Translation; a difference of close to 33% or hardcore gains 1 million sp more per every 111 days compared to basic.
Ps: I made a miscalc in my previous post where i divided the figure by 60 and 60 again instead of 60 and then 24.
Still a crazy comparison. Comparing realistic situations as I did above:
Basic (not much cash for implants after buying adv learning skills): At 4/3 w/ no implants 1 million sp takes about (with say 8 and 8 base attributes in primary and secondary): 1,000,000 / ((15 + 0.5*15)*1.08) = 41152 mins = 28.6 days.
Intermediate: At 4/3 w/ +3 implants 1 million sp takes about (with say 8 and 8 base attributes in primary and secondary): 1,000,000 / ((18 + 0.5*18)*1.08) = 34293 mins = 23.8 days.
At 5/4 w/ +4 implants 1 million sp takes about (with say 8 and 8 base attributes in primary and secondary): 1,000,000 / ((21 + 0.5*21)*1.10) = 28860 mins = 20.0 days.
So it's about 3.8 days difference between 'intermediate learning' and 'hardcore' learning per million sp. Using someone with zero learning skills or implants is stupid - no one does that. My 'Basic' character would spent maybe 3 months getting the 400k sp in learning and 22.5 mill Isk for his setup.
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Bria Xun
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Posted - 2009.01.14 19:03:00 -
[72]
I don't really see what the big deal is.
For example, I set up on EveMon to train up to a Retreiver with no training in learning skills. It took about 25 days.
Adding in learning skills, the training took about 21 days.
So by training learning skills, not only do I get all my skills earlier for my retreiver training, but I'll be getting any other skills I train after that earlier.
Now I don't train all my learning skills to 5 obviously. My T1 skills are at 4 and my T2 skills are at 2-3.
Okay managing them can be annoying but their positive effects are undeniable.
Not that they can't be replaced by a better mechanic, but it kinda sounds like mountains out of molehills here.
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Drew Blaze
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Posted - 2009.01.14 19:39:00 -
[73]
I trained them... so should they...
Call it what you want but fair is fair... |
Myra2007
Shafrak Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.14 20:03:00 -
[74]
2 weeks? When i started playing the game (not with this char) you had to learn the basic skills to 5 to learn the advanced ones. And i started with dunno 90k sp or something. I had to park my character a lot longer than two weeks and back then it was just tough luck.
I would also lose more than 2m sp (and i know others who have much much more in learnings) if you idea was implemented. I might not be new but this would royally **** me off and i guess its the same for others. (especially since i've gone through this torture on a lot of chars - i've paid a lot of money to train these skills losing them would be no different to losing bs 5 or command ship 5 etc.)
Now look at this achura cutie. Not only did she start with 1m sp but no she even has better (MUCH) attributes. Something i can NEVER offset with my older chars. Eventually she will even overcome my older chars in terms of sp (ok not likely given it would take another few years but you get the picture).
The 1m start sp and advanced learning prerequesite of 4 and the hilarious new starting attributes/bloodlines really are enough.
Even if your idea gets implemented half a year later somebody comes makes the same kind of argument and demands 10m starting sp so newbies can catch up. If you specialize you can be among the top skilled pilots in 6-12 months. Its really ok imo and like everyone else i have been a newbie too at a time where it was much harder. I still survived. |
Grendelsbane
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Posted - 2009.01.15 02:28:00 -
[75]
Learning skills were a mistake, period, end of story.
When you get behind on skill progression, that time lost is lost permanently. There is simply no way around that. As a result of this, those who do not train the learning skills early are at a permanent disadvantage because they will always be X amount of days or weeks behind those who did train the learning skills in terms of stuff you can actually use, like combat, mining, research, whatever.
This is not up for argument. This is not debatable. This is pure and simple math, and arguing that you, personally, don't mind it doesn't make the mathematical breakdown of the thing any less true. The bad part is, is that CCP pretty well painted themselves into a corner by doing it, because it's not the sort of thing that has a solution that all sides deem "fair".
CCP does a lot of things right, but there have been many times where it has been bleedingly obvious that they are not economic geniuses (despite being a lot better at it than some other games); they consistently failed to understand opportunity cost. With all the hoopla about hiring an economist a while back, I hope they finally learned their lesson. |
Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.01.15 03:42:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Cristl a) Numpties that tell newbies that they must train learning asap. What they should tell them is to train towards some basic must-haves such as reasonable engineering skill, ability to use afterburners etc. and slot in some learning skills when they can (eg get level 1 and 2 during the first mission and over the first few days. Overnight trains are painless. Maybe aim for the basic learning skills to 4 by the end of the first month. Then get cash and train advanced learning skills to 3 one-by-one as cash allows. Slot in cybernetics and some cheap implants as and when you are able.
b) People who over-egg the custard with claims that ôeve sucks because you need to spend your first two months getting the learning skills upö. No you don't, and 2 months is a huge exaggeration. The initial basic skills to level 4 as above (270k sp) should take a little over 10 days cumulatively (spread, as I suggest, over the first month). After that slip the rest in as needed or able.
Honestly, this is a bigger problem than anything else. New players can train learning skills overnight or just put them off until they can get into a cruiser - which doesn't take very long anyway. People with a good patient mindset will recognize that it will pay off quickly; people who aren't patient enough to do the learning skills probably won't stay with the game anyway. |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.01.15 10:02:00 -
[77]
By the by, i'm not getting into an argument about "how much millions of sp you get in advancements", 1 million or two million a year isn't that much honestly.
The facts are these:
Sure, without learning skills you could have more "fun". EVE isn't supposed to be ALL fun. Learning skills are a basic "learn this to learn faster" trait, which is in all RPGs. Yes, EVE IS an RPG. Learning skills don't "kill the game", you can mixmatch your training.
Ergo, no need to remove them.
Alt reasoning or saying "people quit because of it", don't make it a bad game design.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Ocih
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.15 10:04:00 -
[78]
4 and 4 5 days tops.
adda +3 implant and you are good to go. |
Nva Ris
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Posted - 2009.01.15 12:06:00 -
[79]
read posts on the issue by Akita T they are full of logic and common sense on why we should not remove learning skills from the game
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Therlite
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Posted - 2009.01.15 13:34:00 -
[80]
They should implement a feature so that once your character has aged a year or two you start losing skill-points instead of gaining them since your character is getting old.
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Eleanor DeAquitaine
Gallente Gallente Entertainment
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Posted - 2009.01.15 13:39:00 -
[81]
Frankly, I think that learning skills should go away. There is nothing fun about having to tell someone they need to spend a month training them before they can train things that they WANT to train. They are a bad design. We probably lose players because of this.
This is one case where I think they should be awarded to everyone on character creation, and retroactively to those who don't already have them.
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Troezar
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.01.15 13:45:00 -
[82]
I like to see them as more of a filter to remove the annoying and impatient
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.01.15 13:46:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Eleanor DeAquitaine Frankly, I think that learning skills should go away. There is nothing fun about having to tell someone they need to spend a month training them before they can train things that they WANT to train. They are a bad design. We probably lose players because of this.
Then don't tell them that!
It's bad advice anyway
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.15 13:47:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Troezar I like to see them as more of a filter to remove the annoying and impatient
QFT. I like my learning skills. They teached me that there are necessary things which are worth to wait for.
Proud member of RZR - Decadence. |
Komen
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.01.15 13:52:00 -
[85]
Learning skills, and the time sink they represent, are only one of many time sinks in Eve. Let's face it, doing anything 'big' in this game takes time. Even travelling long jumpgate routes can take a while.
I think in the end learning skills are a sort of filter; yes, they take a while and you only break even after a longish time, and if you have the patience to bother with them, you have the patience to play Eve.
I find that the greatest quality I have that applies to this game is patience. Payoffs are not often immediate, but rather (usually) the result of planning, coordination, and waiting for the right moment. This even applies to PvP, unless you live in lo-sec/null-sec ad kill your neighbors, but even there I'd argue there's an element of waiting.
So I say keep the learning skills in, just as they are. I'm not in favor of gaining new players by turning on 'easy mode'. I'd rather sift finely through the rocks to find those diamonds in the rough who will one day be my compatriots, targets, or both.
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Vabjekf
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Posted - 2009.01.15 14:28:00 -
[86]
Learning skills have caused me to quit the game at least three times for probably a total of a year of missed subscription payments to ccp.
Every time i make a new character that im serious about i train up the learning skills, and every time i start doing OTHER THINGS because you have to train up learning skills FIRST THING (right after cybernetics 0_0 for implants), else you are being horribly inefficient. So i distract myself with other things while just logging on to train up my learning skills.
By the time the learning skills are done im usually so interested in the distraction that i stop playing eve altogether.
MMOs need a 'hook' to grab you and keep you there, particularly early on in a characters life, learning skills are a replant.
This could also be potentially solved by making learning skills retroactive, though i have no idea how they would ever do that.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.15 14:38:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Vabjekf Learning skills have caused me to quit the game at least three times for probably a total of a year of missed subscription payments to ccp.
Every time i make a new character that im serious about i train up the learning skills, and every time i start doing OTHER THINGS because you have to train up learning skills FIRST THING (right after cybernetics 0_0 for implants), else you are being horribly inefficient. So i distract myself with other things while just logging on to train up my learning skills.
By the time the learning skills are done im usually so interested in the distraction that i stop playing eve altogether.
MMOs need a 'hook' to grab you and keep you there, particularly early on in a characters life, learning skills are a replant.
This could also be potentially solved by making learning skills retroactive, though i have no idea how they would ever do that.
I highlighted your error. You're trying to play EvE as a game where the objective is to accumulate the most SP in the shortest time. The pernicious belief that "efficiency" is so vital causes people such as yourself to quit. People who spread this belief should be banned IMO.
Spend no more than 50% of your training time on learning skills until you have 4+3 & cybernetics 1. Then stop training learning skills altogether until you can fly a cruiser reasonably well. Yes you will "lose" a few tens of thosands of SP this way. But you'll be able to play the game.
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Vabjekf
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Posted - 2009.01.15 14:50:00 -
[88]
The thing is i dont need to make money as a newbie so there is no need for me to 'fly a cruiser well' before i start.
Ive done the whole 'be a newbie tackler' thing before, ive gone around and ratted in a cruiser. Ive camped the low level complexes back when they were static. The game to me does not start until you can at least get a decent fit BC out there to go pewpew things with, that requires t2 medium guns and more or less maxed fitting skills all around, and drone skills, etc. And you may as well just get the learning skills up first thing then, because you are going to be 'sitting there' for months and months anyway.
The difference however, is that while i don't to play as a total newbie, i do enjoy just going out on said newbie and messing around. Its nice to be progressively training up some skills for that. However its not 'fun' to waste time not training up learning skills first thing so you can 'mess around' while delaying the point that you eventually start doing stuff 'for real'. Paying for **** while saving up for a call girl, counter productive=P
I fully agree that its not about getting the most SPs ever, but you need a certain number of sps before the character becomes useful, and that number of skill points already is obtained 'fastest' by near-maxing learning skills, and if you are getting say, 4/4 to get to that amount of SPs fastest, you may as well just get 5/4 right off and stop worrying about learning skills altogether. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.15 14:54:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Vabjekf The thing is i dont need to make money as a newbie so there is no need for me to 'fly a cruiser well' before i start.
Ive done the whole 'be a newbie tackler' thing before, ive gone around and ratted in a cruiser. Ive camped the low level complexes back when they were static. The game to me does not start until you can at least get a decent fit BC out there to go pewpew things with, that requires t2 medium guns and more or less maxed fitting skills all around, and drone skills, etc. And you may as well just get the learning skills up first thing then, because you are going to be 'sitting there' for months and months anyway.
The difference however, is that while i don't to play as a total newbie, i do enjoy just going out on said newbie and messing around. Its nice to be progressively training up some skills for that. However its not 'fun' to waste time not training up learning skills first thing so you can 'mess around' while delaying the point that you eventually start doing stuff 'for real'. Paying for **** while saving up for a call girl, counter productive=P
I fully agree that its not about getting the most SPs ever, but you need a certain number of sps before the character becomes useful, and that number of skill points already is obtained 'fastest' by near-maxing learning skills, and if you are getting say, 4/4 to get to that amount of SPs fastest, you may as well just get 5/4 right off and stop worrying about learning skills altogether.
In your case an alternate solution exists; you can purchase a character if you are not limited by ISK |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.01.15 14:56:00 -
[90]
How can someone NOT need ISK as a new player?
I remember scraping together the funds for my cruiser book, let alone cruiser, LET alone battlecruiser and it took me a good bit of time. |
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