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Learning skills: good game design?

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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:38:00 - [1] I wasn't playing before learning skills were introduced. I'm assuming that they were put in the game so that newer players could catch up to the more experienced ones faster. Now the game has evolved further, and we have new characters starting out with 10x the skillpoints that they once started with. I just started skilling up a Falcon alt from scratch. Dead zero. And when I was mucking about with EveMon and figuring out the time saved by skilling up learning skills etc., I noticed that while it was going to take me a full sixteen days of skilling pure learning skills, it will save me another 20+ days of skilling, reducing my total amount of time to some 100 days or so, down from 120+. Note that this includes my original 16 days of skilling just the learning skills themselves. Now, I'm an experienced player, I have other characters, and I don't really mind sitting around for two weeks to optimize my skills for learning at the best speed possible, but it got me to thinking- what about the noobs that have to sit around and wait for this stuff to finish out? If they want to be as efficient as well, they need to pretty much park their character and skill nothing really productive (directly for them) for over two weeks? Doesn't that sound like a pretty big drag to you? And so we get to the idea of removing learning skills from the game and simply giving everyone the +10 points per attribute that you would get if you skilled both regular and advanced to 5. It will help the new players the most, and the older players who are already established shouldn't mind that much at all. They're really losing nothing. Building in the learning skill bonuses into the base attributes will also help the newest players get ahead much quicker by allowing them to complete the shorter skill training times faster. Mature (skillpoint wise) players usually have training times of a month or more for each level five skill, depending on skill rank, and it takes us a month or two to unlock a new item or ship or whatever. But I think it would be a huge help to the new players of Eve to allow them to quickly unlock new items and bring them up to L3/4 of their core skills quickly so that they can more fully enjoy the game at an earlier date than would otherwise be possible. Comments? I'm sure you have a bunch. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:44:00 - [2] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 14/01/2009 07:46:05 I prefer that learning skills stay in the game, and that attribute implants get capped at +5. I actually only have level 4 on the basic learning skills and level 3 on the advanced skills (except for Presence because I never needed it until I started working on warfare link stuff not all that long ago.) The reason being that I want time sinks early in the game. In other MMO's there's no fundamental difference between how you use your level five character vs. your level capped character in most cases. Different spells, stronger armor, and stronger weapons, but little to no evolution of play style. In Eve it's different. There's always something new to learn, and merely unlocking better items for younger players will only lead them to disappointment as they fail to utilize those items correctly, potentially wrecking their wallets when they should have been learning the basic game mechanics in lower tech ships. Just MHO.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:45:00 - [3] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/01/2009 07:46:13 Umm...before learning skills? Anyway, no need, as EVE is a game where you can play with the big boys no matter what your skills are. Learning skills, well, you can even do without them completely. SP means nothing in this game after first 2mil. Basically A tip for new players, learn learning skills while you sleep/offline and learn other skills while you play. Much more fun. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Capt Sly	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:50:00 - [4] lol Sheriff You fit the stereotype peferctly.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:52:00 - [5] Originally by: Capt Sly lol Sheriff You fit the stereotype peferctly. Whaaaat stereotype?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:52:00 - [6] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/01/2009 07:46:13 Umm...before learning skills? Anyway, no need, as EVE is a game where you can play with the big boys no matter what your skills are. Learning skills, well, you can even do without them completely. SP means nothing in this game after first 2mil. Basically A tip for new players, learn learning skills while you sleep/offline and learn other skills while you play. Much more fun. No, instead of, not in addition to, lol. And I'd have to disagree SJ. Yeah, maybe after the first 30-40m SP skillpoints become a little redundant, because it means that you can get all of your core skills and those for one race pretty well rounded out, and that is the point where you can branch out into other races. But below that, skillpoints matter quite a bit in my opinion. Just try flying an abaddon with BS3 and your cap gunnery skill at 0 vs. BS 5 and cap skills at 5. Big difference.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:56:00 - [7] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/01/2009 08:01:27 Originally by: Bellum Eternus No, instead of, not in addition to, lol. And I'd have to disagree SJ. Yeah, maybe after the first 30-40m SP skillpoints become a little redundant, because it means that you can get all of your core skills and those for one race pretty well rounded out, and that is the point where you can branch out into other races. But below that, skillpoints matter quite a bit in my opinion. Just try flying an abaddon with BS3 and your cap gunnery skill at 0 vs. BS 5 and cap skills at 5. Big difference. the bold part i must've missed somewhere, don't get. Anyway... The "after 2mil" means "after 2mil, you can contribute to ops and other things in game with enough effect to let you train in peace without loosing parts of the game". The other parts are just optimization. And i'm an avid adversary to "maxing out to level 5", because the effects are less then the skills of a pilot FYI, i wouldn't mind this as i don't have my learning skills maxed, i just don't think it's needed. The time you spend learning learning, hihi, you should spend learning EVE and gathering iskies. Also, it wasn't a drag for us, why would it be for them with 10x skillpoints to start with? My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:57:00 - [8] Edited by: Khemul Zula on 14/01/2009 07:57:15 Originally by: Bellum Eternus I just started skilling up a Falcon alt from scratch. .... walks out of the thread ------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
Xiao Endo Caldari Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:01:00 - [9] Quote: I just started skilling up a Falcon alt from scratch.
Jonas Barcal Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:12:00 - [10] Originally by: Bellum Eternus It will help the new players the most, and the older players who are already established shouldn't mind that much at all. They're really losing nothing. I don't think it's the vets with 50 Million + SP that would be the issue it's more people like me. I've just finished getting my learning skills done to the point I want them for my new industry character and I'd be ****ed if that time suddenly got wasted and they were removed a month or two later down the line. If CCP could do some mechanic where I could have an spend X amount of SP I'd used for the learning skills on other skills of the same rank then that would be ok as at least it wouldn' have been wasted time.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:13:00 - [11] It's the classic "we had to, you have to" thing, no going back and everyone knows this rule
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:15:00 - [12] I seem to recall that even the devs called the learning skills a horrible mistake… So yes. Nuke'em
Bumbum George	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Also, it wasn't a drag for us, why would it be for them with 10x skillpoints to start with? This pretty much sums up what you would read all over the forums if something like Bellums idea would ever be implemented. Hell there are a bunch of people still ranting about the 800k skillpoints noobs get nowadays. No need to impose more hostility towards new players, there's enough of that already.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Khemul Zula Edited by: Khemul Zula on 14/01/2009 07:57:15 Originally by: Bellum Eternus I just started skilling up a Falcon alt from scratch. .... walks out of the thread LOL. The really bad part: it's the third time in a row. How's that for suckage?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Sheriff Jones It's the classic "we had to, you have to" thing, no going back and everyone knows this rule Meh. So players before hand will have to eat a bullet or two. So what? It's happened before, many many times. WTZ comes to mind... People will get over it and continue on.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:20:00 - [16] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/01/2009 08:26:09 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Sheriff Jones It's the classic "we had to, you have to" thing, no going back and everyone knows this rule Meh. So players before hand will have to eat a bullet or two. So what? It's happened before, many many times. WTZ comes to mind... People will get over it and continue on. WTZ didn't remove the "two weeks of time" spent on learning skills. This would. The SP increase was enough, this would be a..what...1.5mil boost to sp? People could "move on" by eliminating the gallente from the game, or just drones, doesn't make it a good idea Also, you haven't told why the learning skills are a bad game design. They are optional boost to your learning speed. Much like implants. Do you plan on suggesting that implants are given to all because the +5 implants create a gap? Furthermore, the "must" of learning skills is created by elitism. "Must have to succeed!". If you don't care about being the very very very very best, which you MOST likely will never be anyway, then learning skills should only be learned to a comfortable level to help you learn that next ship skill faster. At the end, 27 days or 30 days is all the same really.
Martin Mckenna Point Blank.	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:32:00 - [17] Ok heres the deal. Learning skills are a bad game feature. There is no doubt about that at all and im sure CCP know it themself. They may not force new players to train them but all new players know that in the long run they will have to train them at some point to progress at a resnoable pace in the game. Many of my friends that ive tryed to get into the game have complained about this learning skills problem. They are placed in a dilemma. Do I train learning skills but achieve nothing the first month of the game? or Do I start training other skill to help my character advance in the game but doing so at a slow speed and in the long run will need to train these skills anyways. All my friends have left because of this reason apart form 1. @the poster saying this game is for "big boys" and they should stay because of this you realy need to get off your high horse and start thinking about why a game is good. At the most basic level we play games for entertainment. I dont think anyone finds training learning skills at all entertaining. ---------------------------------------------
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:33:00 - [18] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/01/2009 08:26:09 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Sheriff Jones It's the classic "we had to, you have to" thing, no going back and everyone knows this rule Meh. So players before hand will have to eat a bullet or two. So what? It's happened before, many many times. WTZ comes to mind... People will get over it and continue on. WTZ didn't remove the "two weeks of time" spent on learning skills. This would. The SP increase was enough, this would be a..what...1.5mil boost to sp? People could "move on" by eliminating the gallente from the game, or just drones, doesn't make it a good idea Also, you haven't told why the learning skills are a bad game design. They are optional boost to your learning speed. Much like implants. Do you plan on suggesting that implants are given to all because the +5 implants create a gap? Furthermore, the "must" of learning skills is created by elitism. "Must have to succeed!". If you don't care about being the very very very very best, which you MOST likely will never be anyway, then learning skills should only be learned to a comfortable level to help you learn that next ship skill faster. At the end, 27 days or 30 days is all the same really. Finally someone who can put together a decent argument for their perspective. I see where you're coming from. You've changed my mind. You win the internet. No sarcasm. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:35:00 - [19] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I see where you're coming from. You've changed my mind. You win the internet. No sarcasm. Ah ****. You do know this causes the universe to tear open, right? Because if you did that was a very irresponsible thing of you to do. ------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:35:00 - [20] Originally by: Martin Mckenna @the poster saying this game is for "big boys" and they should stay because of this you realy need to get off your high horse and start thinking about why a game is good. At the most basic level we play games for entertainment. I dont think anyone finds training learning skills at all entertaining. Nobody is saying that though Thing is, there's no REAL reason to train learning skills. In the long run, it doesn't save THAT much. Only if you want to optimize some two year training plan, to get the maximum potential SP, it becomes a "must". Otherwise, it's a day or two training to get them to a fair enough level. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Furb Killer Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:37:00 - [21] At least all the basics or all the advanced learning skills should be removed and +5 in base attributes. --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:50:00 - [22] Omg, Sheriff Jones won an argument, good for you! Sorry, no prizes or medals for winning on the forums :( -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:55:00 - [23] People are saying it like i have some form of civilized discussion disorder My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:55:00 - [24] Originally by: Khemul Zula Originally by: Bellum Eternus I see where you're coming from. You've changed my mind. You win the internet. No sarcasm. Ah ***. You do know this causes the universe to tear open, right? Because if you did that was a very irresponsible thing of you to do. I could have divided by zero instead... On second thought, I'll do one better and just make a 4th Falcon alt. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.* Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:10:00 - [25] 1. Learning skills were quite a bad choice in their old form, they took way too long to properly train - but they were changed radically with the new "800+k SP" characters into something slightly less bad. 2. Simply removing them now is really NOT an option - those that spent 2+ months to train them all to 5 back in the day when they were introduced (the advanced ones, I mean) barely started to break even a short while ago - those more recent that only went to 4/4 didn't spend so much at all, but putting them on equal footing with the rest is simply not right. 3. THEY ARE NOT MANDATORY TO ALL L5. Sure, the lower levels have a very short break-even time, and as such they could be considered nearly mandatory (at least a 4/3 or so). Since we agree having to train them is quite bad for the morale (since everybody would be pressuring newbies to train them first, even if that's sometimes a mistake for a genuine newbie), some other solution needs to be introduced. PERSONALLY, I am completely in favor of simply having ALL new characters start from now on with L4 in all 6 basic learnings (because the break-even time for L5 basics is quite long), and grant additional ADVANCED learnings based on starter school. At the same time, all characters that don't have them trained should get them trained for free to those levels, the same way character skills were adjusted when the new 800+k SP pilots came out. Obviously, the starter SP total (and initial clone SP retention) would need to be bumped up to compensate for those additional skills. I would even go so far as to suggest adding a FOURTH school, which would feature almost exclusively learning skills (and Science 3) in the starter skilltree (nearly no other skills except the mandatory ones). _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:16:00 - [26] Not really. As an essential part of the game its a bad time sink really. I mean 2 months to really start playing if you use the recommended skill training at onset, or loss of skillpoints as time goes by if you don't. It's not the greatest flaw of EVE though, that would be the sovereignty system, which should of been controlled through skills like everything else. You couldn't change it now much like the learning skills though, it would be to hard at this point in the game to implement the changes needed. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Miyamoto Shigesuke Jugis Modo Utopia Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:42:00 - [27] I agree with the OP. Even the devs admitted it was a mistake to introduce the learning skills. I could live with the changes suggested, but others may emoragequit on this fundamental chage. Not as much as on the removal of LVL4 missions from highsec though :)
Bumbum George	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:52:00 - [28] Originally by: Akita T PERSONALLY, I am completely in favor of simply having ALL new characters start from now on with L4 in all 6 basic learnings (because the break-even time for L5 basics is quite long), and grant additional ADVANCED learnings based on starter school. At the same time, all characters that don't have them trained should get them trained for free to those levels, the same way character skills were adjusted when the new 800+k SP pilots came out. I really like this idea, may need some slight balancing but it sure deserves some consideration.
Eleneor	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:58:00 - [29] A while back I had a load of spare ISK and considered getting some GTC and making a 2nd alt to play around in FW with. The only thing that stopped me was the thought of having to spend a couple of weeks doing the learning skills. I'm sure I'm not the only player that has done this.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:05:00 - [30] Originally by: Eleneor A while back I had a load of spare ISK and considered getting some GTC and making a 2nd alt to play around in FW with. The only thing that stopped me was the thought of having to spend a couple of weeks doing the learning skills. I'm sure I'm not the only player that has done this. Actually, learning skills are hugely more tolerable on an alt.

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