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[Issue] Mission Reset Exploit

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Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:19:00 - [1] There is an issue that exists where if a Player scans down a Mission and steals the item that is required to get to complete the Mission, the Mission Runner can open a petition to have his Mission reset because he does not want to 'pay' the other Player to get the item back, and does not want to let natural game mechanics to take their course. As per this post: Originally by: State Security I've actually had this happen several times, I don't pay, just drop a petition and they reset the mission. That's REALLY good when the mission is a nice fat Bounty one too and I was almost done with it...KA-CHING! This is an exploit that must be fixed, as it gives Mission Runners the ability to re-run the Mission, and does not give them the 'risk' of failing the Mission itself. Of course, they always have the ability to check the local Market and 'buy' the Mission Critical Item, however, this GM sanctioned exploit should NOT be permitted. Consider it this way: A Mission Runner doesn't want to engage a Player who's stolen their Mission Item. That's fine, they don't have to. (They aren't being forced to, either.) The Mission Runner has the ability to 'fail' the Mission by closing it, thus, losing standings, or wait until after downtime so that the Mission resets itself. A GM should not interfere with the natural gameplay of Mission Running, even if someone enters a Mission for the purpose of stealing the Mission Item. What would happen if the Player stole the Mission Item a second time? Would the GM restart the Mission again? Would the Player get warned for griefing, even though it's been documented that this isn't an offense? The options they have available are simple - shoot the thief, buy the item, fail/close the Mission, or wait until after Downtime. I would like to see this problem fixed, so that ALL GM's are aware that they CANNOT reset the Mission if the Mission Runner has had their item 'stolen' by an opportunistic player. We're Recruiting!
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:19:00 - [2] I support everything I have to say. (Usually.) We're Recruiting!
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:21:00 - [3] Agreed - this is a game of risk and lessons. The "natural" course of game mechanics should be left alone in these cases. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Jonas Barcal Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:36:00 - [4] Actually GM's should do what ever CCP wants to allow them to including blowing up players for random laughs if they see fit. Rules are so boring.
Camilo Cienfuegos Earned In Blood	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:38:00 - [5] If someone steals a mission item from you, they are flagged and you should have the means to take it back. Supporting the idea already.
State Security Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:51:00 - [6] Having thought about it, I keep comming back to several things we just do not have the information on and are most likly not going to get. 1. Was Probing ever intended to allow a person to to use it in this way or is it (yet again) another of CCP doing thier Britny Spears "Oops we did it again". 2. The rules that GMs are to follow regarding mission resets are never going to hit this forum, and this topic, to confirm or deny anything. A serious spanking would follow if they did. I did however find several sections of the EULA, Code of Conduct and Rules that (and I'll admit it does not say anything EXACTLY about this specific topic) could cover this as an exploit. So, while I do admit there is nothing written in stone tablets passed down from yon high CCP mountain top that covers this specifcly, the wording can, and is, general enough that I believe it does.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:03:00 - [7] Originally by: State Security Having thought about it, I keep comming back to several things we just do not have the information on and are most likely not going to get. Perhaps I should have posted this. Originally by: GM Faolchu It is perfectly within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission area and steal the loot/salvage from the mission NPCs. If they happen to also steal the mission specific loot again this is within the rules of the game, it is a harsh circumstance but it is allowed. Eve is a harsh place and there are often things that happen to you that are not perceived as being entirely 'fair'. Concerning when you actually manage to loot the mission item. If you lose your ship between the time you get the item and the time you get to your agent there is nothing we can do. Unless your loss was not within the game mechanics but within game mechanics is a oft disagreed upon point between Gamemasters and players. Again this can be perceived as harsh but this is Eve. Care to reconsider?
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:13:00 - [8] Edited by: RedSplat on 16/01/2009 16:14:22 More whines incoming Not really a troll
State Security Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:26:00 - [9] As you know I can not post anything from a Petition that a GM has talked to me about. That said, I do believe there is some sort of miscomunication going on between GMs and what rules covering this situation are to be followed. IF this is something that CCP is going to sanction and give it's blessings too, then they had better follow it to its logical end, newbies being scammed. Players ability to advance in the game being held hostage by older players with more skills. You, and your Corp, may not consider newbies worth the effort but rest assured, someone is going to do it for kicks and jollies. And isn't that a nice message to send to prospective new PAYING customers. Cripes, give'm a chance and at least kiss'em and use a little lube, go slow before you ram it home that EVE sould be named EVE-il.
Jonas Barcal Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:29:00 - [10] Originally by: GM Faolchu Eve is a harsh place This line from CCP/players always makes me smile compared to WOW maybe but any game that lets you convert $$ into ISK to replace loses isn't harsh at all.

Zhul Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:46:00 - [11] "Mission Runner can open a petition to have his Mission reset because he does not want to 'pay' the other Player to get the item back" Sounds like a valid point to me. CCP could monitor the data base to track down those lazy and risk free farmers abusing the petition system.
State Security Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:16:00 - [12] You might have also mentioned that the quote was from over a year ago Posted - 2008.02.01 21:30:00 - [17] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is perfectly within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission area and steal the loot/salvage from the mission NPCs. If they happen to also steal the mission specific loot again this is within the rules of the game, it is a harsh circumstance but it is allowed. Eve is a harsh place and there are often things that happen to you that are not perceived as being entirely 'fair'. They may have changed the rules, might have decided to give it a update, heck a lunar eclipse could have caused a change of heart, who knows?
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:40:00 - [13] Quote: The options they have available are simple - shoot the thief, buy the item, fail/close the Mission, or wait until after Downtime. Shoot the thief? How about no... most of the mission objective objects do not have a possession. So the moment you take it. If they shoot you. They get concordokken. Buy the item??? They can put the price @ 10,000,000,000,000 isk. Fail the mission? Hardly an option at all. After downtime? Also doesnt work. The mission would be marked as objective complete. Meaning it doesnt respawn. So basically the options are... fail or pay up; whatever they demand. Sorry but this is far from optional. Seed all mission objectives on the market. or Remove all mission objective items. or Keep it how it is. GM resetting the missions.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:54:00 - [14] I thought stealing mission critical items are considered an exploit under CCP's CURRENT terms.
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Drake Draconis I thought stealing mission critical items are considered an exploit under CCP's CURRENT terms. Actually it was harassment; as you pretty much have to be harassing the person to be taking garbage Militants or something. They only serve a value if you get the mission owner to pay up. Which rarely if ever happens. CCP decided to reset missions instead of punish those players for harassment.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Jason Edwards CCP decided to reset missions instead of punish those players for harassment. Back up your posts with a CCP link, or kindly stop posting. As it is, I've provided the latest information I have, and what you're posting is pure conjecture. (That's the nice way of saying "Proof or You-Know-What's-Next".)
Haakelen Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:19:00 - [17] Dumb exploit, supported.
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.01.16 20:13:00 - [18] Originally by: Haakelen Dumb exploit, supported. lol... At best it's the GM who is committing the exploit. What an absurd concept.
zibelthurdos Hoshi's Mining and Logistics	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:29:00 - [19] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn There is an issue that exists where if a Player scans down a Mission and steals the item that is required to get to complete the Mission, the Mission Runner can open a petition to have his Mission reset <snip> as far as i know this is incorrect, someone once told me i could petition it so i did and it was denied. if it should not have been denied i want my faction standings back...
Vania ColeDart Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:50:00 - [20] LOL

Lisa Waen	Posted - 2009.01.16 22:25:00 - [21] A relatively easy fix would be to make all mission specific items owned by the 'runner. This may not elimiate all mission required item theft, but it does give the thief a flag even for items that drop into its own container and are unowned within the current mechanic, eliminating the potential CONCORD response. Now to the meat of the overall argument. Is the thief really wanting to grief, or just make a profit off of the 'runner? If the thief is griefing, then there really isn't much recourse for the runner save trying to get the mission specific items off of the market. If the thief is trying to make a bit more isk, then that thief should probably offer a reasonable ransom for the mission items, say approximately what the mission bonus is worth on average. A player may begrudingly be willing to pay up to a mil for those items if the mission is a lvl4, but if you set a ransom price of say 20mil for it, the 'runner will most likely just write it off and take the standings hit. I believe the theft of mission specific items is just plain vile behavior since the items in question truly have very limited value. However, I can see the draw for some to use this tactic for some easy isk.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 23:44:00 - [22] I appreciate the amount of conversation in this post, one way or the other, but I would like to call everybody back to the fact that a GM has provided the "Official Ruling", and other GM's are not managing the responsibility as expected. Please make sure you check the 'supported' checkbox, so that the GM's know that we're watching, and keeping them in line. If not, the next GM Exploit could be against you!
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 23:45:00 - [23] Originally by: Lisa Waen A relatively easy fix would be to make all mission specific items owned by the 'runner. This may not elimiate all mission required item theft, but it does give the thief a flag even for items that drop into its own container and are unowned within the current mechanic, eliminating the potential CONCORD response. That exists today, if I'm not mistaken. I believe that when the Player takes the Mission Item, he is immediately flagged. (I don't run Missions - never will - so if I'm incorrect, please let me know.)
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.17 07:20:00 - [24] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn There is an issue that exists where if a Player scans down a Mission and steals the item that is required to get to complete the Mission, the Mission Runner can open a petition to have his Mission reset because he does not want to 'pay' the other Player to get the item back, and does not want to let natural game mechanics to take their course. As per this post: Originally by: State Security I've actually had this happen several times, I don't pay, just drop a petition and they reset the mission. That's REALLY good when the mission is a nice fat Bounty one too and I was almost done with it...KA-CHING! So we should take for good the word of a 3 month old character that has never done a mission that is possible to get a mission reset through a petition on a regular basis when we all know that the average petition has a reply time of several days or even weeks? Taht stretch credibility too far for me.
lordbalan Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.17 10:19:00 - [25] Originally by: Venkul Mul So we should take for good the word of a 3 month old character I've had a mission reset when an item either didn't spawn or I missed it, admittedly a very long time ago so maybe the GM's have changed the rules since.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.17 12:22:00 - [26] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 17/01/2009 12:23:02 Originally by: lordbalan Originally by: Venkul Mul So we should take for good the word of a 3 month old character that has never done a mission I've had a mission reset when an item either didn't spawn or I missed it, admittedly a very long time ago so maybe the GM's have changed the rules since. I think the second part of that phrase should be kept with the first: Originally by: Venkul Mul So we should take for good the word of a 3 month old character that has never done a mission that guy has 10 standing with the first agent (the one you get at the end of the training) and no standing with any other agents. Sure it is possible to get a mission reset when: 1) you are a very young character and you did some error generated by inexperience or 2) if the mission failed for some bug that the GM can verify. I think that no GM will reset a mission if the target item was stolen by another player unless it was one of the starting missions done in the school system by new players. But then harassing new players in the starting systems can be a bannable offence, while doing the same thing in all the rest of EVE is not a problem. Edit: spelling
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.17 12:34:00 - [27] Originally by: Venkul Mul I think that no GM will reset a mission if the target item was stolen by another player unless it was one of the starting missions done in the school system by new players. I've heard reports of it from a few of our Alliance Members, whereby they were not in starter systems, and the Missions were immediately respawned, so I do believe that it might happen, if even sporadically. My reason for this vote is to bring to light the possibility that the GM's might not have a 'rulebook' per se, as much as a 'go with your gut on this one' when it comes to resetting Missions. (Hell - you never know if the Mission Runner hasn't said, "I've killed everything, and the Mission Item didn't drop" to get the GM to intervene.) In this specific instance, it affects more than the Runner, and that's the reason for my request. Originally by: Venkul Mul But then harassing new players in the starting systems can be a bannable offence, while doing the same thing in all the rest of EVE is not a problem. QFT. Starter Systems have been off limit for a long time now. We're Recruiting!
Dex Timor Dead poets society	Posted - 2009.01.17 15:00:00 - [28] Fully supported ! The question is: How common is this situation ? I've been probed out once in my entire career ... Failing a mission is no deal to me at all. Gosh ... I can't believe I'm in support of griefers
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.17 15:03:00 - [29] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Venkul Mul I think that no GM will reset a mission if the target item was stolen by another player unless it was one of the starting missions done in the school system by new players. I've heard reports of it from a few of our Alliance Members, whereby they were not in starter systems, and the Missions were immediately respawned, so I do believe that it might happen, if even sporadically. My reason for this vote is to bring to light the possibility that the GM's might not have a 'rulebook' per se, as much as a 'go with your gut on this one' when it comes to resetting Missions. (Hell - you never know if the Mission Runner hasn't said, "I've killed everything, and the Mission Item didn't drop" to get the GM to intervene.) In this specific instance, it affects more than the Runner, and that's the reason for my request. First: in your OP you state that mission are "reset" like gospel truth, without any confirmation from a credible source (again a guy that has never run a mission is not a credible source); Second: this is the second time is see this thread, with the same arguments (not sure if done by the same player and not interested enough to research it through the forum), the same flimsy "evidence" of some guy saying that some other guye has sad that. It seem more a campaign by some people fearing an instancing of missions or some change in the "crucial loot" mechanism that a real complaint of something happening. So someone has ever tried to get a mission reset because someone has stolen the loot? it worked? Some reply by people that actually do missions and don't steal loot and salvage for isk and giggles would be much more credible.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.17 16:17:00 - [30] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Venkul Mul I think that no GM will reset a mission if the target item was stolen by another player unless it was one of the starting missions done in the school system by new players. I've heard reports of it from a few of our Alliance Members, whereby they were not in starter systems, and the Missions were immediately respawned, so I do believe that it might happen, if even sporadically. My reason for this vote is to bring to light the possibility that the GM's might not have a 'rulebook' per se, as much as a 'go with your gut on this one' when it comes to resetting Missions. (Hell - you never know if the Mission Runner hasn't said, "I've killed everything, and the Mission Item didn't drop" to get the GM to intervene.) In this specific instance, it affects more than the Runner, and that's the reason for my request. First: in your OP you state that mission are "reset" like gospel truth, without any confirmation from a credible source (again a guy that has never run a mission is not a credible source); Second: this is the second time is see this thread, with the same arguments (not sure if done by the same player and not interested enough to research it through the forum), the same flimsy "evidence" of some guy saying that some other guye has sad that. It seem more a campaign by some people fearing an instancing of missions or some change in the "crucial loot" mechanism that a real complaint of something happening. So someone has ever tried to get a mission reset because someone has stolen the loot? it worked? Some reply by people that actually do missions and don't steal loot and salvage for isk and giggles would be much more credible. THIS /thumbs up =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============



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