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[Issue] Mission Reset Exploit

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Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:19:00 - [1] There is an issue that exists where if a Player scans down a Mission and steals the item that is required to get to complete the Mission, the Mission Runner can open a petition to have his Mission reset because he does not want to 'pay' the other Player to get the item back, and does not want to let natural game mechanics to take their course. As per this post: Originally by: State Security I've actually had this happen several times, I don't pay, just drop a petition and they reset the mission. That's REALLY good when the mission is a nice fat Bounty one too and I was almost done with it...KA-CHING! This is an exploit that must be fixed, as it gives Mission Runners the ability to re-run the Mission, and does not give them the 'risk' of failing the Mission itself. Of course, they always have the ability to check the local Market and 'buy' the Mission Critical Item, however, this GM sanctioned exploit should NOT be permitted. Consider it this way: A Mission Runner doesn't want to engage a Player who's stolen their Mission Item. That's fine, they don't have to. (They aren't being forced to, either.) The Mission Runner has the ability to 'fail' the Mission by closing it, thus, losing standings, or wait until after downtime so that the Mission resets itself. A GM should not interfere with the natural gameplay of Mission Running, even if someone enters a Mission for the purpose of stealing the Mission Item. What would happen if the Player stole the Mission Item a second time? Would the GM restart the Mission again? Would the Player get warned for griefing, even though it's been documented that this isn't an offense? The options they have available are simple - shoot the thief, buy the item, fail/close the Mission, or wait until after Downtime. I would like to see this problem fixed, so that ALL GM's are aware that they CANNOT reset the Mission if the Mission Runner has had their item 'stolen' by an opportunistic player. We're Recruiting!
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:19:00 - [2] I support everything I have to say. (Usually.) We're Recruiting!
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:21:00 - [3] Agreed - this is a game of risk and lessons. The "natural" course of game mechanics should be left alone in these cases. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Jonas Barcal Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:36:00 - [4] Actually GM's should do what ever CCP wants to allow them to including blowing up players for random laughs if they see fit. Rules are so boring.
Camilo Cienfuegos Earned In Blood	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:38:00 - [5] If someone steals a mission item from you, they are flagged and you should have the means to take it back. Supporting the idea already.
State Security Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:51:00 - [6] Having thought about it, I keep comming back to several things we just do not have the information on and are most likly not going to get. 1. Was Probing ever intended to allow a person to to use it in this way or is it (yet again) another of CCP doing thier Britny Spears "Oops we did it again". 2. The rules that GMs are to follow regarding mission resets are never going to hit this forum, and this topic, to confirm or deny anything. A serious spanking would follow if they did. I did however find several sections of the EULA, Code of Conduct and Rules that (and I'll admit it does not say anything EXACTLY about this specific topic) could cover this as an exploit. So, while I do admit there is nothing written in stone tablets passed down from yon high CCP mountain top that covers this specifcly, the wording can, and is, general enough that I believe it does.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:03:00 - [7] Originally by: State Security Having thought about it, I keep comming back to several things we just do not have the information on and are most likely not going to get. Perhaps I should have posted this. Originally by: GM Faolchu It is perfectly within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission area and steal the loot/salvage from the mission NPCs. If they happen to also steal the mission specific loot again this is within the rules of the game, it is a harsh circumstance but it is allowed. Eve is a harsh place and there are often things that happen to you that are not perceived as being entirely 'fair'. Concerning when you actually manage to loot the mission item. If you lose your ship between the time you get the item and the time you get to your agent there is nothing we can do. Unless your loss was not within the game mechanics but within game mechanics is a oft disagreed upon point between Gamemasters and players. Again this can be perceived as harsh but this is Eve. Care to reconsider?
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:13:00 - [8] Edited by: RedSplat on 16/01/2009 16:14:22 More whines incoming Not really a troll
State Security Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:26:00 - [9] As you know I can not post anything from a Petition that a GM has talked to me about. That said, I do believe there is some sort of miscomunication going on between GMs and what rules covering this situation are to be followed. IF this is something that CCP is going to sanction and give it's blessings too, then they had better follow it to its logical end, newbies being scammed. Players ability to advance in the game being held hostage by older players with more skills. You, and your Corp, may not consider newbies worth the effort but rest assured, someone is going to do it for kicks and jollies. And isn't that a nice message to send to prospective new PAYING customers. Cripes, give'm a chance and at least kiss'em and use a little lube, go slow before you ram it home that EVE sould be named EVE-il.
Jonas Barcal Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:29:00 - [10] Originally by: GM Faolchu Eve is a harsh place This line from CCP/players always makes me smile compared to WOW maybe but any game that lets you convert $$ into ISK to replace loses isn't harsh at all.
Zhul Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:46:00 - [11] "Mission Runner can open a petition to have his Mission reset because he does not want to 'pay' the other Player to get the item back" Sounds like a valid point to me. CCP could monitor the data base to track down those lazy and risk free farmers abusing the petition system.
State Security Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:16:00 - [12] You might have also mentioned that the quote was from over a year ago Posted - 2008.02.01 21:30:00 - [17] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is perfectly within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission area and steal the loot/salvage from the mission NPCs. If they happen to also steal the mission specific loot again this is within the rules of the game, it is a harsh circumstance but it is allowed. Eve is a harsh place and there are often things that happen to you that are not perceived as being entirely 'fair'. They may have changed the rules, might have decided to give it a update, heck a lunar eclipse could have caused a change of heart, who knows?
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:40:00 - [13] Quote: The options they have available are simple - shoot the thief, buy the item, fail/close the Mission, or wait until after Downtime. Shoot the thief? How about no... most of the mission objective objects do not have a possession. So the moment you take it. If they shoot you. They get concordokken. Buy the item??? They can put the price @ 10,000,000,000,000 isk. Fail the mission? Hardly an option at all. After downtime? Also doesnt work. The mission would be marked as objective complete. Meaning it doesnt respawn. So basically the options are... fail or pay up; whatever they demand. Sorry but this is far from optional. Seed all mission objectives on the market. or Remove all mission objective items. or Keep it how it is. GM resetting the missions.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:54:00 - [14] I thought stealing mission critical items are considered an exploit under CCP's CURRENT terms.
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Drake Draconis I thought stealing mission critical items are considered an exploit under CCP's CURRENT terms. Actually it was harassment; as you pretty much have to be harassing the person to be taking garbage Militants or something. They only serve a value if you get the mission owner to pay up. Which rarely if ever happens. CCP decided to reset missions instead of punish those players for harassment.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Jason Edwards CCP decided to reset missions instead of punish those players for harassment. Back up your posts with a CCP link, or kindly stop posting. As it is, I've provided the latest information I have, and what you're posting is pure conjecture. (That's the nice way of saying "Proof or You-Know-What's-Next".)
Haakelen Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:19:00 - [17] Dumb exploit, supported.
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.01.16 20:13:00 - [18] Originally by: Haakelen Dumb exploit, supported. lol... At best it's the GM who is committing the exploit. What an absurd concept.
zibelthurdos Hoshi's Mining and Logistics	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:29:00 - [19] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn There is an issue that exists where if a Player scans down a Mission and steals the item that is required to get to complete the Mission, the Mission Runner can open a petition to have his Mission reset <snip> as far as i know this is incorrect, someone once told me i could petition it so i did and it was denied. if it should not have been denied i want my faction standings back...
Vania ColeDart Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:50:00 - [20] LOL
Lisa Waen	Posted - 2009.01.16 22:25:00 - [21] A relatively easy fix would be to make all mission specific items owned by the 'runner. This may not elimiate all mission required item theft, but it does give the thief a flag even for items that drop into its own container and are unowned within the current mechanic, eliminating the potential CONCORD response. Now to the meat of the overall argument. Is the thief really wanting to grief, or just make a profit off of the 'runner? If the thief is griefing, then there really isn't much recourse for the runner save trying to get the mission specific items off of the market. If the thief is trying to make a bit more isk, then that thief should probably offer a reasonable ransom for the mission items, say approximately what the mission bonus is worth on average. A player may begrudingly be willing to pay up to a mil for those items if the mission is a lvl4, but if you set a ransom price of say 20mil for it, the 'runner will most likely just write it off and take the standings hit. I believe the theft of mission specific items is just plain vile behavior since the items in question truly have very limited value. However, I can see the draw for some to use this tactic for some easy isk.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 23:44:00 - [22] I appreciate the amount of conversation in this post, one way or the other, but I would like to call everybody back to the fact that a GM has provided the "Official Ruling", and other GM's are not managing the responsibility as expected. Please make sure you check the 'supported' checkbox, so that the GM's know that we're watching, and keeping them in line. If not, the next GM Exploit could be against you!
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 23:45:00 - [23] Originally by: Lisa Waen A relatively easy fix would be to make all mission specific items owned by the 'runner. This may not elimiate all mission required item theft, but it does give the thief a flag even for items that drop into its own container and are unowned within the current mechanic, eliminating the potential CONCORD response. That exists today, if I'm not mistaken. I believe that when the Player takes the Mission Item, he is immediately flagged. (I don't run Missions - never will - so if I'm incorrect, please let me know.)
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.17 07:20:00 - [24] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn There is an issue that exists where if a Player scans down a Mission and steals the item that is required to get to complete the Mission, the Mission Runner can open a petition to have his Mission reset because he does not want to 'pay' the other Player to get the item back, and does not want to let natural game mechanics to take their course. As per this post: Originally by: State Security I've actually had this happen several times, I don't pay, just drop a petition and they reset the mission. That's REALLY good when the mission is a nice fat Bounty one too and I was almost done with it...KA-CHING! So we should take for good the word of a 3 month old character that has never done a mission that is possible to get a mission reset through a petition on a regular basis when we all know that the average petition has a reply time of several days or even weeks? Taht stretch credibility too far for me.
lordbalan Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.17 10:19:00 - [25] Originally by: Venkul Mul So we should take for good the word of a 3 month old character I've had a mission reset when an item either didn't spawn or I missed it, admittedly a very long time ago so maybe the GM's have changed the rules since.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.17 12:22:00 - [26] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 17/01/2009 12:23:02 Originally by: lordbalan Originally by: Venkul Mul So we should take for good the word of a 3 month old character that has never done a mission I've had a mission reset when an item either didn't spawn or I missed it, admittedly a very long time ago so maybe the GM's have changed the rules since. I think the second part of that phrase should be kept with the first: Originally by: Venkul Mul So we should take for good the word of a 3 month old character that has never done a mission that guy has 10 standing with the first agent (the one you get at the end of the training) and no standing with any other agents. Sure it is possible to get a mission reset when: 1) you are a very young character and you did some error generated by inexperience or 2) if the mission failed for some bug that the GM can verify. I think that no GM will reset a mission if the target item was stolen by another player unless it was one of the starting missions done in the school system by new players. But then harassing new players in the starting systems can be a bannable offence, while doing the same thing in all the rest of EVE is not a problem. Edit: spelling
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.17 12:34:00 - [27] Originally by: Venkul Mul I think that no GM will reset a mission if the target item was stolen by another player unless it was one of the starting missions done in the school system by new players. I've heard reports of it from a few of our Alliance Members, whereby they were not in starter systems, and the Missions were immediately respawned, so I do believe that it might happen, if even sporadically. My reason for this vote is to bring to light the possibility that the GM's might not have a 'rulebook' per se, as much as a 'go with your gut on this one' when it comes to resetting Missions. (Hell - you never know if the Mission Runner hasn't said, "I've killed everything, and the Mission Item didn't drop" to get the GM to intervene.) In this specific instance, it affects more than the Runner, and that's the reason for my request. Originally by: Venkul Mul But then harassing new players in the starting systems can be a bannable offence, while doing the same thing in all the rest of EVE is not a problem. QFT. Starter Systems have been off limit for a long time now. We're Recruiting!
Dex Timor Dead poets society	Posted - 2009.01.17 15:00:00 - [28] Fully supported ! The question is: How common is this situation ? I've been probed out once in my entire career ... Failing a mission is no deal to me at all. Gosh ... I can't believe I'm in support of griefers
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.17 15:03:00 - [29] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Venkul Mul I think that no GM will reset a mission if the target item was stolen by another player unless it was one of the starting missions done in the school system by new players. I've heard reports of it from a few of our Alliance Members, whereby they were not in starter systems, and the Missions were immediately respawned, so I do believe that it might happen, if even sporadically. My reason for this vote is to bring to light the possibility that the GM's might not have a 'rulebook' per se, as much as a 'go with your gut on this one' when it comes to resetting Missions. (Hell - you never know if the Mission Runner hasn't said, "I've killed everything, and the Mission Item didn't drop" to get the GM to intervene.) In this specific instance, it affects more than the Runner, and that's the reason for my request. First: in your OP you state that mission are "reset" like gospel truth, without any confirmation from a credible source (again a guy that has never run a mission is not a credible source); Second: this is the second time is see this thread, with the same arguments (not sure if done by the same player and not interested enough to research it through the forum), the same flimsy "evidence" of some guy saying that some other guye has sad that. It seem more a campaign by some people fearing an instancing of missions or some change in the "crucial loot" mechanism that a real complaint of something happening. So someone has ever tried to get a mission reset because someone has stolen the loot? it worked? Some reply by people that actually do missions and don't steal loot and salvage for isk and giggles would be much more credible.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.17 16:17:00 - [30] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Venkul Mul I think that no GM will reset a mission if the target item was stolen by another player unless it was one of the starting missions done in the school system by new players. I've heard reports of it from a few of our Alliance Members, whereby they were not in starter systems, and the Missions were immediately respawned, so I do believe that it might happen, if even sporadically. My reason for this vote is to bring to light the possibility that the GM's might not have a 'rulebook' per se, as much as a 'go with your gut on this one' when it comes to resetting Missions. (Hell - you never know if the Mission Runner hasn't said, "I've killed everything, and the Mission Item didn't drop" to get the GM to intervene.) In this specific instance, it affects more than the Runner, and that's the reason for my request. First: in your OP you state that mission are "reset" like gospel truth, without any confirmation from a credible source (again a guy that has never run a mission is not a credible source); Second: this is the second time is see this thread, with the same arguments (not sure if done by the same player and not interested enough to research it through the forum), the same flimsy "evidence" of some guy saying that some other guye has sad that. It seem more a campaign by some people fearing an instancing of missions or some change in the "crucial loot" mechanism that a real complaint of something happening. So someone has ever tried to get a mission reset because someone has stolen the loot? it worked? Some reply by people that actually do missions and don't steal loot and salvage for isk and giggles would be much more credible. THIS /thumbs up =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.17 19:16:00 - [31] Originally by: Venkul Mul Some reply by people that actually do missions and don't steal loot and salvage for isk and giggles would be much more credible. ITT: People missing the point. Regardless of your personal view of who's credible (and I'm beyond reproach, tyvm - why do you think I'm not an NPC Ninja?) or not, don't you think supporting a 'fair and just GM exploit resolution rulebook' is a good idea? If not, feel free to not respond, because I'm leaning towards that chance that you might be trolling my thread. We're Recruiting!
Karentaki Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:10:00 - [32] Supported - This is a blatant exploit of the petition system by both the players and any GMs involved. I have done this in the past as a way to get money from mission runners. Unfortunately one of them shot me, losing his ship, and another just refused to pay, but at least their decision resulted in loss of standings so they had some incentive to pay up. I don't appreciate how CCP seem to be constantly making highsec safer. Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:11:00 - [33] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Venkul Mul Some reply by people that actually do missions and don't steal loot and salvage for isk and giggles would be much more credible. ITT: People missing the point. Regardless of your personal view of who's credible (and I'm beyond reproach, tyvm - why do you think I'm not an NPC Ninja?) or not, don't you think supporting a 'fair and just GM exploit resolution rulebook' is a good idea? If not, feel free to not respond, because I'm leaning towards that chance that you might be trolling my thread. Nah, judging by some of his posts he just thinks he knows everything. Offical Stance: No problem here, move on out people, nothing to see... btw: That GM's don't have a guide of rules for resetting missions and go with their gut... I think that's true of most of the things that happen in this game not just missions. ____________________________________ Google - 'Rata Nrnima bunyip issler'
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:13:00 - [34] Oh and supported. If they aren't resetting missions, then where are the threads of outcry from the mission running community? ____________________________________ Google - 'Rata Nrnima bunyip issler'
Captain Pompous	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:13:00 - [35] Edited by: Captain Pompous on 17/01/2009 23:13:34 Originally by: Tchell Dahhn this GM sanctioned exploit should NOT be permitted. I'm sorry, "GM sanctioned exploit" sounds very much like the game rules to me and a bad case of sour grapes on your part
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:21:00 - [36] Originally by: Captain Pompous Edited by: Captain Pompous on 17/01/2009 23:13:34 Originally by: Tchell Dahhn this GM sanctioned exploit should NOT be permitted. I'm sorry, "GM sanctioned exploit" sounds very much like the game rules to me and a bad case of sour grapes on your part Do you think the rules (if they exist) state: If you find a juicy mission and claim that another player took your mission critical object regardless of whether said item was taken or not - then please feel free to contact a GM to have the mission reset. ____________________________________ Google - 'Rata Nrnima bunyip issler'
Captain Pompous	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:26:00 - [37] Originally by: Saphirro Originally by: Captain Pompous Edited by: Captain Pompous on 17/01/2009 23:13:34 Originally by: Tchell Dahhn this GM sanctioned exploit should NOT be permitted. I'm sorry, "GM sanctioned exploit" sounds very much like the game rules to me and a bad case of sour grapes on your part Do you think the rules (if they exist) state: If you find a juicy mission and claim that another player took your mission critical object regardless of whether said item was taken or not - then please feel free to contact a GM to have the mission reset. As Jason Edwards stated before, your options in this instance are really more limited than may appear. How else to complete the mission if the person who took the loot is ransoming it beyond your ability to pay, and the mission is flagged as completed and thus will not respawn with the next DT?
Karentaki Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:35:00 - [38] Originally by: Captain Pompous Originally by: Saphirro Originally by: Captain Pompous Edited by: Captain Pompous on 17/01/2009 23:13:34 Originally by: Tchell Dahhn this GM sanctioned exploit should NOT be permitted. I'm sorry, "GM sanctioned exploit" sounds very much like the game rules to me and a bad case of sour grapes on your part Do you think the rules (if they exist) state: If you find a juicy mission and claim that another player took your mission critical object regardless of whether said item was taken or not - then please feel free to contact a GM to have the mission reset. As Jason Edwards stated before, your options in this instance are really more limited than may appear. How else to complete the mission if the person who took the loot is ransoming it beyond your ability to pay, and the mission is flagged as completed and thus will not respawn with the next DT? Then tough luck - you had the chance to stop the mission item from being taken because the thief got aggro. If the thief really wants to screw you over, he can do, and that's what is great about EVE. You can always screw him over later on in some way if you really want revenge. However, it is VERY unlikely that any thief would demand an unreasonable ransom for an item that is otherwise worthless. They want to make money just as much as you do, and there's no point demanding an amount that won't be payed. A reasonable amount for the standings for a L4 mission would probably be around 20 mill, which is what, about an hour of grinding? Essentially, stop crying, and learn to negotiate.
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:43:00 - [39] Originally by: Captain Pompous How else to complete the mission if the person who took the loot is ransoming it beyond your ability to pay, and the mission is flagged as completed and thus will not respawn with the next DT? If stealing the mission critical loot is not an exploit, and is harrassment that goes unpunished, what's to stop me stealing that loot from good missions with another account and then getting them reset? Or getting a friend to do it on an alt. Maybe for your example, the objective should not be flagged as 'complete' until you have taken the item back to claim the reward and the mission itself is completed.
Captain Pompous	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:10:00 - [40] Edited by: Captain Pompous on 18/01/2009 00:13:32 Originally by: Karentaki However, it is VERY unlikely that any thief would demand an unreasonable ransom for an item that is otherwise worthless. No. Simply put, the fact is they can demand whatever they goddamn feel like for it, and the fact that there is no upper ceiling to that means that they could very easily demand a ridiculous sum and when you fail to pay up, they just walk away laughing their little heads off. And the bolded part merely amplifies the viewpoint that what they are doing does indeed consitute harrassment.
Captain Pompous	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:13:00 - [41] Originally by: Saphirro Originally by: Captain Pompous How else to complete the mission if the person who took the loot is ransoming it beyond your ability to pay, and the mission is flagged as completed and thus will not respawn with the next DT? If stealing the mission critical loot is not an exploit, and is harrassment that goes unpunished, what's to stop me stealing that loot from good missions with another account and then getting them reset? Or getting a friend to do it on an alt. Maybe for your example, the objective should not be flagged as 'complete' until you have taken the item back to claim the reward and the mission itself is completed. Right, I am of course only in favour of this in legitimate cases of harrassment, and not someone using an alt (as you say) in order to capitalise on a particularly lucrative mission). I like the proposal you put forward - that would realistically provide a viable path out of the situation, should the OP get their way
Ankhesentapemkah	Posted - 2009.01.18 07:22:00 - [42] I agree that players shouldn't be able to petition it and get off the hook this easy. On the other hand, I actually did have two genuine cases of the mission item not dropping or courier item not appearing in cargo bay, and I think it's hard for CCP to discern in all cases if the item got stolen/destroyed instead of not appearing due to a bug of sorts.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.18 08:49:00 - [43] Edited by: Malcanis on 18/01/2009 08:53:51 Agreed 100% Either make missions instances, or advise GMs what sandbox play means.
Terra Mikael SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:12:00 - [44] **ing supported. Ya know, I used to think all the ass licking your corp members did to you in these forums was pretty sad, but even being the stubborn idiot I am, I can occasionally admit when I'm wrong about something. Maybe all that ass kissing isn't unwarrented at all, you have some damn good ideas, and I support all of them so far. Hurry up and run for CSM, these dumbtarded CSMs we have now are all failbears, and probably support GM intervention for their magic high sec, risk-free isk machine. When I take somebody's damsel/marines/freedom fighters/yadda yadda, they should be able to either take them from my can at my leisure, buy them from me, or get them from the market. That's it. I never knew this kinda crap was occuring. thanks for the heads up. ________________________________ Originally by:** Korovyov You WIN! And by win, I mean suck horse manure.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:26:00 - [45] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Venkul Mul Some reply by people that actually do missions and don't steal loot and salvage for isk and giggles would be much more credible. ITT: People missing the point. Regardless of your personal view of who's credible (and I'm beyond reproach, tyvm - why do you think I'm not an NPC Ninja?) or not, don't you think supporting a 'fair and just GM exploit resolution rulebook' is a good idea? If not, feel free to not respond, because I'm leaning towards that chance that you might be trolling my thread. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn There is an issue that exists where if a Player scans down a Mission and steals the item that is required to get to complete the Mission, the Mission Runner can open a petition to have his Mission reset because he does not want to 'pay' the other Player to get the item back, and does not want to let natural game mechanics to take their course. You are not asking for a 'fair and just GM exploit resolution rulebook', you are crying that a specific exploit exist and that the GM are accessory to it. And what is doing a corp called "Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service"? Hard to guess, right? I am not trolling your thread, I am truly convinced that you are strongly biased in your OP and motivated reasons that are far away for fieriness and justice.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:33:00 - [46] Originally by: Saphirro [ Do you think the rules (if they exist) state: If you find a juicy mission and claim that another player took your mission critical object regardless of whether said item was taken or not - then please feel free to contact a GM to have the mission reset. The point if so far I have seen no credible proof of missions being reset if not for noob players or bugs. It is always "some alliance member had said that he can get them reset". Who said that? When it happened? If you have some GM mail or player mail saying that the mission was reset, petition against it and if refused escalate and go to the internal affairs. Stealing loot is a valid action, has always been, but I have never heard from a credible source that a mission will be reset if the crucial mission loot is stolen. So for the Nth tiem, you have any proof?
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:17:00 - [47] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Saphirro [ Do you think the rules (if they exist) state: If you find a juicy mission and claim that another player took your mission critical object regardless of whether said item was taken or not - then please feel free to contact a GM to have the mission reset. The point if so far I have seen no credible proof of missions being reset if not for noob players or bugs. It is always "some alliance member had said that he can get them reset". Who said that? When it happened? If you have some GM mail or player mail saying that the mission was reset, petition against it and if refused escalate and go to the internal affairs. Stealing loot is a valid action, has always been, but I have never heard from a credible source that a mission will be reset if the crucial mission loot is stolen. So for the Nth tiem, you have any proof? In the hypothetical case that such proof could be obtained, would you support Tchell's proposal?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:25:00 - [48] Originally by: Malcanis In the hypothetical case that such proof could be obtained, would you support Tchell's proposal? Yes. I can see people petitioning for a mission reset for noobs errors (and while they are new players) or bugs, not for other player actions. It can be annoying if someone steal your target item, but it is part of the game.
fuze Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.01.18 13:22:00 - [49] Like it has been said before. If the item didn't appear of a bug it should be reset. But I don't think to the practical side a GM can determine if it was a bug or another player. So it all boils back to the mechanics side. So if it was 'acquired' by some other player it should set off a flag and the mission runner should be able to take it back by force and add a little flair to the mission.
Terra Mikael SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.01.18 13:59:00 - [50] Oh, and stop feeding the trolls, ffs
Esmenet	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:04:00 - [51]
Kuranta Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:43:00 - [52] Edited by: Kuranta on 18/01/2009 14:43:34 Obviously, CCP schould at least make sure that the rules they state in the forums are beeing carried out. One should not forget that some mission runner might only claim to have gotten back the mission item to discurage pirates from doing so again.
Avalon Champion Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency	Posted - 2009.01.19 08:26:00 - [53] Being an occasional mission runner, i beleive the missions should only be reset in the case of a mission bug, item not dropped, key rat doesnt spawn, etc. which should all be in the logs, though it may take time to go through them. I dont think its the standing drop that people worry about as much as the LP loss that they would have gotten for completing the mission, especially in a faction navy mission. With regard to GM's resetting missions, it would be interesting to see the stats on how many missions get completed compared to those reset on a weekly basis and the reasons behind the resets. To mission runners, if you know that a firm like TEARS operate in an area, find somewhere else to run-missions, or accept that they will bust into the mission and salvage it.
Karentaki Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.19 19:39:00 - [54] Originally by: Captain Pompous Edited by: Captain Pompous on 18/01/2009 00:13:32 Originally by: Karentaki However, it is VERY unlikely that any thief would demand an unreasonable ransom for an item that is otherwise worthless. No. Simply put, the fact is they can demand whatever they goddamn feel like for it, and the fact that there is no upper ceiling to that means that they could very easily demand a ridiculous sum and when you fail to pay up, they just walk away laughing their little heads off. And the bolded part merely amplifies the viewpoint that what they are doing does indeed consitute harrassment. Also, people can sell modules for stupid prices on the market in remote regions griefing people who want to buy stuff. Of course nobody would ever buy those items, but IT'S STILL GRIEFING!!! Thus, traders are griefers... As for your suggestion that it's harassment, you are stupid. It's worthless to everyone except the mission runner, to which it is worth quite a bit. Since they are trying to sell it to the mission runner alone, then it's value it considerable. However, if the mission runner refuses to pay up, THEN it is worthless. Essentially, they griefed you by trying to sell you something for an excessive price!!! Just to demonstrate how stupid this is, say I attacked your ship and ransomed you for 100,000,000,000,000 ISK, an obviously unreasonable sum. By your logic this is griefing because they are asking too much. However, it is no different to them just blowing you up in the first place, which is perfectly legal. Therefore this is not griefing. Assuming you're in a T2 rigged T2 BS with T1 fittings, the ship is worth a lot, but it will drop very little of worth if destroyed. Now this is no different to the 'griefer' stealing the mission item and charging an excessive amount for it, yet it is obviously within game mechanics. Therefore, your arguament fails. Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.20 19:42:00 - [55] Originally by: Venkul Mul And what is doing a corp called "Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service"? Hard to guess, right? You've got it - we're Ninja Salvagers and Looters. That being said, we've seen first hand the damage Mission Runners do to a system (come to Dodixie for the Missions, stay for the lag) and we do our best to clean up the clutter. Regardless of whether we steal your Mission Item or not, is it fair for the Mission Runner to reset their Mission? Give me a RP reason why this might work? (Oh, all of the sudden, we're suddenly rocketed backwards in time? This isn't Star Trek.) Originally by: Venkul Mul I am not trolling your thread, I am truly convinced that you are strongly biased in your OP and motivated reasons that are far away for fairiness and justice. "Fairiness" aside (sorry, couldn't resist) it's an issue that needs fixing. At the very least, Devs must be held accountable to a certain level of discretion, and this must be upheld across the board. If it's not fair to reset a Mission because someone stole the Mission Item, then everybody should be held to the same rule. Originally by: Malcanis In the hypothetical case that such proof could be obtained, would you support Tchell's proposal? I'm guessing no. Somebody seems a bit too biased against us. We're Recruiting!
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.20 20:01:00 - [56] With all due respect.... valid reasons aside.... all your doing is weakening the barrier that leaves some risk to literally zero risk. you guys have it made in the shade... you have literally no risk at all in what you do.. and yet you ask for "moar". If anyone is guilty of bias.. its you Tchell... right down to the core. your just too damn proud to admit it. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.20 20:59:00 - [57] Originally by: Drake Draconis With all due respect.... valid reasons aside.... all your doing is weakening the barrier that leaves some risk to literally zero risk. I'll admit it - there's no risk today! I've figured out that Frigates (my Frigates, anyhow) can easily tank 3+ Mission BS's for the duration of the salvaging expedition, and that there's little a Mission Runner can do to combat what I do. Sure, I'll lose some Salvage to fast tractors or blown wrecks, but yeah. There's nothing that can really hurt me in a Mission. (...kinda like the Mission Runners, eh?) Originally by: Drake Draconis If anyone is guilty of bias.. its you Tchell... right down to the core. I invite you to look up an old post I made in regards to smarter AI, including Mission Rats that would appear specifically to aggro suddenly appearing Ninja Salvagers, and smarter AI that could follow you out of a Mission if you ran. Both of these options were ideas to increase the flexibility and immersion of the Mission Running system, and not further bork it, as it is today with the "perpetually resetting mission" hack. I'm not biased per se, but I'll fight to keep what I have now for as long as I can.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.20 21:18:00 - [58] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Venkul Mul And what is doing a corp called "Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service"? Hard to guess, right? You've got it - we're Ninja Salvagers and Looters. That being said, we've seen first hand the damage Mission Runners do to a system (come to Dodixie for the Missions, stay for the lag) and we do our best to clean up the clutter. Regardless of whether we steal your Mission Item or not, is it fair for the Mission Runner to reset their Mission? Give me a RP reason why this might work? (Oh, all of the sudden, we're suddenly rocketed backwards in time? This isn't Star Trek.) Originally by: Venkul Mul I am not trolling your thread, I am truly convinced that you are strongly biased in your OP and motivated reasons that are far away for fairiness and justice. "Fairiness" aside (sorry, couldn't resist) it's an issue that needs fixing. At the very least, Devs must be held accountable to a certain level of discretion, and this must be upheld across the board. If it's not fair to reset a Mission because someone stole the Mission Item, then everybody should be held to the same rule. Originally by: Malcanis In the hypothetical case that such proof could be obtained, would you support Tchell's proposal? I'm guessing no. Somebody seems a bit too biased against us. The point is that thie "exploit" don't happen. The only "proof" you put out is the word of your unknown alliance mate that can set them reset. I asked again and again for some prof, at least the name of this guy that say he can get his mission reset regularly. What you do is to cite yourself again like you were a source of divine truth. I have never heard someone I know in game saying that he has got a mission reset after the mission goal item had been stole and I know enough mission runners. So ask this guy to post here, saying what are his magic words to get the mission reset.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.20 21:21:00 - [59] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 20/01/2009 21:21:44
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.20 21:22:00 - [60] Originally by: Venkul Mul The point is that thie "exploit" don't happen. The only "proof" you put out is the word of your unknown alliance mate that can set them reset. Wow, that's a good argument. "It doesn't happen, so there's no need to hold CCP accountable to a set of rules." I'm being rational. You're being foolish. I'm done responding to your foolishness. It's obvious you have no intent on agreeing, so I'll ask you (again) to troll elsewhere. We're Recruiting!
Exlegion Caldari New Light	Posted - 2009.01.20 21:31:00 - [61] Edited by: Exlegion on 20/01/2009 21:55:41 I'm all for this fix as long as EVERYONE in deadspace shares NPC aggro. It's way too easy for a loot thief to roam about the mission freely while the mission runner himself is aggroed by 30+ NPCs, webbed, scrambled, and/or jammed. If anyone jumps in, friend or foe, aggro needs to be reset and split among all present equally. If you can live with this then I wholeheartedly support your thread.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.20 22:38:00 - [62] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 20/01/2009 22:41:36 Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Venkul Mul The point is that thie "exploit" don't happen. The only "proof" you put out is the word of your unknown alliance mate that can set them reset. Wow, that's a good argument. "It doesn't happen, so there's no need to hold CCP accountable to a set of rules." I'm being rational. You're being foolish. I'm done responding to your foolishness. It's obvious you have no intent on agreeing, so I'll ask you (again) to troll elsewhere. You scream "It exist, it exist , remove the exploit" but you don't care to prove it. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn There is an issue that exists where if a Player scans down a Mission and steals the item that is required to get to complete the Mission, the Mission Runner can open a petition to have his Mission reset because he does not want to 'pay' the other Player to get the item back, and does not want to let natural game mechanics to take their course. I can suggest you get a job as witchsmeller pursuivant? Your thread speak of a "Mission reset exploit" not of "give the GM a comprehensive and fair set of guidelines". So I reply to your thread and your OP.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.21 00:27:00 - [63] Originally by: Venkul Mul Your thread speak of a "Mission reset exploit" not of "give the GM a comprehensive and fair set of guidelines". So I reply to your thread and your OP. Read below. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn A GM should not interfere with the natural gameplay of Mission Running, even if someone enters a Mission for the purpose of stealing the Mission Item. <snip> I would like to see this problem fixed, so that ALL GM's are aware that they CANNOT reset the Mission if the Mission Runner has had their item 'stolen' by an opportunistic player. Here is the information you're claiming doesn't exist, right from my OP, and if you need a translator, perhaps one of the kind denizens of New Eden could help you out. The content of a post is much, much more than the title. We're Recruiting!
Dotard Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.21 02:18:00 - [64] Gee Whiz, I usually only ask 2-3 million for the dang item. If you're not being nice during my attempted negotiation then I may demand a Frig or Cruiser 1v1 for your item back. I'm very reasonable when it comes to ransomed mission items. As some previous poster said, Pay up or Fail.Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.21 12:47:00 - [65] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Venkul Mul Your thread speak of a "Mission reset exploit" not of "give the GM a comprehensive and fair set of guidelines". So I reply to your thread and your OP. Read below. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn <snip>This is an exploit that must be fixed, as it gives Mission Runners the ability to re-run the Mission, and does not give them the 'risk' of failing the Mission itself. Of course, they always have the ability to check the local Market and 'buy' the Mission Critical Item, however, this GM sanctioned exploit should NOT be permitted. Consider it this way: A Mission Runner doesn't want to engage a Player who's stolen their Mission Item. That's fine, they don't have to. (They aren't being forced to, either.) The Mission Runner has the ability to 'fail' the Mission by closing it, thus, losing standings, or wait until after downtime so that the Mission resets itself.</snip> A GM should not interfere with the natural gameplay of Mission Running, even if someone enters a Mission for the purpose of stealing the Mission Item. <snip> I would like to see this problem fixed, so that ALL GM's are aware that they CANNOT reset the Mission if the Mission Runner has had their item 'stolen' by an opportunistic player. Here is the information you're claiming doesn't exist, right from my OP, and if you need a translator, perhaps one of the kind denizens of New Eden could help you out. The content of a post is much, much more than the title. Corrected your use of accurate removal of part of the text. You are asking for the correction of a specific problem that you haven't proved exist. And you are trying to pass it as a general problem blaming the GM for action they (for all I know and for what has been proved) they don't do.
Myrhial Arkenath Ghost Festival	Posted - 2009.01.21 12:54:00 - [66] Seed all mission items on the market and this gets my support. Make the price high enough so a lower price can be asked by the loot thief. That should make both parties happy, no?
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.21 13:45:00 - [67] Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath Seed all mission items on the market and this gets my support. Make the price high enough so a lower price can be asked by the loot thief. That should make both parties happy, no? That works for me. Of course, if you've ever checked the Market, there's always a huge amount of Mission Items there for the purchasing now. It might just be that the Mission Runner is unaware (and who am I to tell them?) but still, they are available, and usually at very reasonable prices.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.21 20:17:00 - [68] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath Seed all mission items on the market and this gets my support. Make the price high enough so a lower price can be asked by the loot thief. That should make both parties happy, no? That works for me. Of course, if you've ever checked the Market, there's always a huge amount of Mission Items there for the purchasing now. It might just be that the Mission Runner is unaware (and who am I to tell them?) but still, they are available, and usually at very reasonable prices. Depend on the mission item. Some are "generic" trade items and can be purchased on market to substitute for those dropped in the mission some are unique items with a name similar to those that can be purchased on market. If you want to check if the item is in one category or the other the easiest way is to r-click on the item and check "view market detail". If it is missing the item is a unique item with an unique id spawned for the mission. Eve a similar (same name/same characteristics) item spawned for another mission will not do. There are particular items spawned for some mission that have no market bar but can substitute for the same item in another mission, but those are items spawned in event missions that you can do only once.
Wardo21	Posted - 2009.01.21 23:00:00 - [69] /not supported, if in fact the petitions are getting granted in the first place. (I think they should.) When my mission running fit has some usefulness in this sort of PvP encounter, then it's not harassment. As it stands now, the item thief has a ship he knows will be at an advantage against 90% of the ships he's likely to face in the mission. If the thief recognizes the mission they might even have time to tailor their damage output to go against a weak spot in the mission runners tank. (Hrm, a Raven in a Guristas mission, I think I will switch to an EM damage gank setup...) Not to mention how many mission runners carry a point on their ships? That's about the last thing you need in a NPC mission. There is no real risk to the thief unless they get alpha strike destroyed, or for some other reason can't warp off fast enough for the incoming DPS.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.22 00:59:00 - [70] Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 22/01/2009 00:59:13 Originally by: Wardo21 When my mission running fit has some usefulness in this sort of PvP encounter, then it's not harassment. It's not harassment now, or there would be actions taken against the perpetrator, which there are not. Originally by: Wardo21 As it stands now, the item thief has a ship he knows will be at an advantage against 90% of the ships he's likely to face in the mission. If the thief recognizes the mission they might even have time to tailor their damage output to go against a weak spot in the mission runners tank. (Hrm, a Raven in a Guristas mission, I think I will switch to an EM damage gank setup...) Welcome to EvE. Been here long? Originally by: Wardo21 Not to mention how many mission runners carry a point on their ships? That's about the last thing you need in a NPC mission. There is no real risk to the thief unless they get alpha strike destroyed, or for some other reason can't warp off fast enough for the incoming DPS. Exactly right, and exactly why it's done. Here's a tip - don't engage the thief. I have a question for you - let's say your Mission is invaded by someone stealing the Mission Item, and you petition to have it reset. You get it, and the thief returns to steal the item again. So, you have it reset again. What happens when the thief petitions you for harassment, since he now has had to steal the Mission Item twice. (You're obviously griefing him, because your exploiting the GM's Mission Reset and not using "normal game mechanics", a term which is quoted - oh so much - in the forums.) What then? Why is it fair for you to call foul on harassment and not them?
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.22 06:43:00 - [71] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 22/01/2009 00:59:13 Originally by: Wardo21 When my mission running fit has some usefulness in this sort of PvP encounter, then it's not harassment. It's not harassment now, or there would be actions taken against the perpetrator, which there are not. Originally by: Wardo21 As it stands now, the item thief has a ship he knows will be at an advantage against 90% of the ships he's likely to face in the mission. If the thief recognizes the mission they might even have time to tailor their damage output to go against a weak spot in the mission runners tank. (Hrm, a Raven in a Guristas mission, I think I will switch to an EM damage gank setup...) Welcome to EvE. Been here long? Originally by: Wardo21 Not to mention how many mission runners carry a point on their ships? That's about the last thing you need in a NPC mission. There is no real risk to the thief unless they get alpha strike destroyed, or for some other reason can't warp off fast enough for the incoming DPS. Exactly right, and exactly why it's done. Here's a tip - don't engage the thief. I have a question for you - let's say your Mission is invaded by someone stealing the Mission Item, and you petition to have it reset. You get it, and the thief returns to steal the item again. So, you have it reset again. What happens when the thief petitions you for harassment, since he now has had to steal the Mission Item twice. (You're obviously griefing him, because your exploiting the GM's Mission Reset and not using "normal game mechanics", a term which is quoted - oh so much - in the forums.) What then? Why is it fair for you to call foul on harassment and not them? The Answer is obvious... the GM would laugh at the thief because its obvious the thief is harassing the mission running with intent to disrupt. Oh... I'm sorry... that's common sense. I guess you where expect us to fall for your trap of ill-fated-greed-infested logic? You really think the GM's are that dense to not check the logs and track history? Oh I'm sorry... is the poor little ninja salvager crying for his ransom because the pilot is reporting "harassment"? No favor will be given to you people because you have zero risk. You reading my lips? ZERO RISK Period... And until there is risk... you will not be heard. I don't care if your queen of the galaxy. That's the bottom line right there.
DrWh0 Gallente Cubewanos	Posted - 2009.01.22 07:39:00 - [72] I think the system in place needs refining alittle as I have no qualms about somebody entering a mission I am doing and cleaning up after me but do have problems about somebody stealing a mission specific item that is not seeded on the market. Why not make the system better to keep the salvagers on thier toes, randomize the mission item and make that the only item in the salvage that can not be taken by a ninja salvager without some kind of penalty sort of like a booby trap. Maybe this will put some risk into the profession it should be. And a final though I had, were do you draw the line between griefing and normal gameplay ?
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:07:00 - [73] Originally by: Drake Draconis And until there is risk... you will not be heard. I don't care if your queen of the galaxy. Thank Me (heh - bigger than the Queen) that you're not the only voice to be heard. That's a very limited view you have there - "Tchell Dahhn is being selfish, so let's not even listen the ideas that make sense." That's ok - Mission Runners aren't the only Players in the game.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:29:00 - [74] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Drake Draconis And until there is risk... you will not be heard. I don't care if your queen of the galaxy. Thank Me (heh - bigger than the Queen) that you're not the only voice to be heard. That's a very limited view you have there - "Tchell Dahhn is being selfish, so let's not even listen the ideas that make sense." That's ok - Mission Runners aren't the only Players in the game. Sorry to burst your bubble tchell... but your stuffed up pride is making you stupid. The Voice I speak is one of rationality and reason.... unbiased with the fact that I'm not really interested in the greed or ego of EVE... I seek to play the game to be constructive and to further my corporation.... the games too large for self indulgence. Your trying to make the bank robber look like the victim in this sad little tale of your so called "exploit" complaint. While you have valid points... the underlining agenda is a little too obvious.. and that is why you will be ignored. As I've said a thousand times... until there is risk... you will not get your wish. All you have to do is scan probe out the mission area... show up... salvage..and leave with a ton of ISK. One would call that ISK farming... Zero effort.... very little time invovled.. and you make out like a bandit. Someone war decs you.. you go hide in your little hole and wait it out... or run off.... even if you did fight youd have better finances than anyone else combined. Ninja Salvaging at the time of its first inception may look like a valid tactic... but any tactic overused/abused would quickly change that opinion... Case and point: Ghost training. And that's undeniable. Whats going to happen if you salvage a wreck and you get aggro? How about taking a security hit for interfering with empire mission's? After all you are interfering in the affairs of the said sovereign empires that hand out these missions. You may think I'm just rattling my gums for the sake of the carebears you oh so hate with a passion. But in reallity its because of those carebears your making millions if not billions.... with very very little effort. Even then.... this so called mission reset exploit is actually in your favor... so it gets reset... that means more wrecks to clean up. Guess you didn't think of that did you? Don't want double the trit bars tchell? Lost your way have you? Everyone knows that mission payouts are worthless.... salvage is what makes the ISK. And your little business of taking advantage of that... daresay "Exploiting" that fact is going to get a little negative attention... because you are not getting any danger or risk from doing it to begin with... until you decide to get even more greedy and steal the loot and then hold mission items for ransom. this is why this topic falls under a controversial category.... and one that will not be paid attention too until CCP finds the time to bother listening... they have other things to take care of... Until there is a defense against invasion of missions... I'm not going to sit here at let people be blinded by your "holier than thou" attitude. Your excuse of "Shooting back when they take loot" is completely unreasonable unless the mission runner is smart enough to use tactics to wait out the aggro timer... and even then its destructive to the mission runners environment. Which in turn leads to the age old argument of eliminate the mission runners and send them packing to low-sec or endless war-decs. At that rate I might as well go get a copy of Warhammer online and say frak it. But we aren't there yet... and I'm hopefull CCP won't fall prey to such things. =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:52:00 - [75] Originally by: Drake Draconis Passionate, passionate words. I stand corrected. You have made me rethink my entire profession, and I thank you for your input.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.22 18:05:00 - [76] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 22/01/2009 18:07:42 T.T; =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Monotard	Posted - 2009.01.22 18:20:00 - [77] No proof. Apart from an Alt 'claiming' he got a mission reset. Maybe he did it to annoy the Ninja guys. It looks like it worked because now Tchell is crying. Make sure you catch some of your own tears to fuel your ships. Zero support for a 'profession' which is below Corp Theft in my book.
Number 86 Eat Ship and Die	Posted - 2009.01.22 18:39:00 - [78] hmm, some peoples children
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.22 19:26:00 - [79] Funny who this whole thing stems from a single quote from a GM.... =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.22 19:56:00 - [80] Originally by: Drake Draconis Funny who this whole thing stems from a single quote from a GM.... Technically, two. Both CCP Ytterbium and CCP Prism X seem to share the same opinion, which leads me to believe there's more 'silent' support at CCP that we don't hear from.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.01.22 23:58:00 - [81] Originally by: Drake Draconis Sorry to burst your bubble tchell... but your stuffed up pride is making you stupid. The Voice I speak is one of rationality and reason.... Who's the one with the stuffed up pride? It is not for you to declare that you speak with the voice of rationality and reason. Your abuse of ellipses marks you as an undisciplined thinker. I fully support Tchell's proposal - that GM's be given a firm guide on the conditions under which a mission-space reset is considered appropriate. If someone steals your mission loot, just fail the mission. It costs you less than one-third the reputation gain from a successfully completed mission. And Drake, please leave the ellipses alone. All those pauses in the sentences might be dramatic when you're coming to the denouement in an epic adventure story, but as part of an argument over rules of a game they're pretentious and make it look like your brain isn't fast enough to keep up with the argument.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.23 00:10:00 - [82] Originally by: Mara Rinn Originally by: Drake Draconis Sorry to burst your bubble tchell... but your stuffed up pride is making you stupid. The Voice I speak is one of rationality and reason.... Who's the one with the stuffed up pride? It is not for you to declare that you speak with the voice of rationality and reason. Your abuse of ellipses marks you as an undisciplined thinker. I fully support Tchell's proposal - that GM's be given a firm guide on the conditions under which a mission-space reset is considered appropriate. If someone steals your mission loot, just fail the mission. It costs you less than one-third the reputation gain from a successfully completed mission. And Drake, please leave the ellipses alone. All those pauses in the sentences might be dramatic when you're coming to the denouement in an epic adventure story, but as part of an argument over rules of a game they're pretentious and make it look like your brain isn't fast enough to keep up with the argument. Says pot calling kettle black. =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.23 00:19:00 - [83] Don't make me come back there! I swear I will turn this ship around! We're Recruiting!
Grann Thefauto Apeshit Assassins	Posted - 2009.01.23 00:43:00 - [84] support.
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.23 01:40:00 - [85] Edited by: Saphirro on 23/01/2009 01:41:02 Originally by: Drake Draconis Sorry to burst your bubble tchell... but your stuffed up pride is making you stupid. The Voice I speak is one of rationality and reason.... unbiased with the fact that I'm not really interested in the greed or ego of EVE... I seek to play the game to be constructive and to further my corporation.... the games too large for self indulgence. Your trying to make the bank robber look like the victim in this sad little tale of your so called "exploit" complaint. My god that post is hard to read. Talk about horrible formatting. (Please don't actually do that.) The bank robber would actually be the victim in a world where the law is that he is perfectly within his rights and the law to steal the item, and the banker cries foul and gets divine assistance to generate a new one from thin air. If this does indeed take place (And I believe it used to, even if it no longer does) then it's not a level playing field. GM's should stick to their word of no intervention on the missions. Rationality and reason you say? The words of a fool seem true to himself don't they?
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.23 18:57:00 - [86] Originally by: Saphirro Edited by: Saphirro on 23/01/2009 01:41:02 Originally by: Drake Draconis Sorry to burst your bubble tchell... but your stuffed up pride is making you stupid. The Voice I speak is one of rationality and reason.... unbiased with the fact that I'm not really interested in the greed or ego of EVE... I seek to play the game to be constructive and to further my corporation.... the games too large for self indulgence. Your trying to make the bank robber look like the victim in this sad little tale of your so called "exploit" complaint. My god that post is hard to read. Talk about horrible formatting. (Please don't actually do that.) The bank robber would actually be the victim in a world where the law is that he is perfectly within his rights and the law to steal the item, and the banker cries foul and gets divine assistance to generate a new one from thin air. If this does indeed take place (And I believe it used to, even if it no longer does) then it's not a level playing field. GM's should stick to their word of no intervention on the missions. Rationality and reason you say? The words of a fool seem true to himself don't they? Again... says the Pot calling the Kettle black.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.23 19:58:00 - [87] Don't make me come back there! I swear I will turn this ship around!
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.23 20:51:00 - [88] Originally by: Drake Draconis Again... says the Pot calling the Kettle black. Good answer. You know, for when you can't really think of a reasoned response. ____________________________________ Google - 'Rata Nrnima bunyip issler'

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