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[Issue] Mission Reset Exploit

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Exlegion Caldari New Light	Posted - 2009.01.20 21:31:00 - [61] Edited by: Exlegion on 20/01/2009 21:55:41 I'm all for this fix as long as EVERYONE in deadspace shares NPC aggro. It's way too easy for a loot thief to roam about the mission freely while the mission runner himself is aggroed by 30+ NPCs, webbed, scrambled, and/or jammed. If anyone jumps in, friend or foe, aggro needs to be reset and split among all present equally. If you can live with this then I wholeheartedly support your thread.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.20 22:38:00 - [62] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 20/01/2009 22:41:36 Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Venkul Mul The point is that thie "exploit" don't happen. The only "proof" you put out is the word of your unknown alliance mate that can set them reset. Wow, that's a good argument. "It doesn't happen, so there's no need to hold CCP accountable to a set of rules." I'm being rational. You're being foolish. I'm done responding to your foolishness. It's obvious you have no intent on agreeing, so I'll ask you (again) to troll elsewhere. You scream "It exist, it exist , remove the exploit" but you don't care to prove it. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn There is an issue that exists where if a Player scans down a Mission and steals the item that is required to get to complete the Mission, the Mission Runner can open a petition to have his Mission reset because he does not want to 'pay' the other Player to get the item back, and does not want to let natural game mechanics to take their course. I can suggest you get a job as witchsmeller pursuivant? Your thread speak of a "Mission reset exploit" not of "give the GM a comprehensive and fair set of guidelines". So I reply to your thread and your OP.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.21 00:27:00 - [63] Originally by: Venkul Mul Your thread speak of a "Mission reset exploit" not of "give the GM a comprehensive and fair set of guidelines". So I reply to your thread and your OP. Read below. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn A GM should not interfere with the natural gameplay of Mission Running, even if someone enters a Mission for the purpose of stealing the Mission Item. <snip> I would like to see this problem fixed, so that ALL GM's are aware that they CANNOT reset the Mission if the Mission Runner has had their item 'stolen' by an opportunistic player. Here is the information you're claiming doesn't exist, right from my OP, and if you need a translator, perhaps one of the kind denizens of New Eden could help you out. The content of a post is much, much more than the title. We're Recruiting!
Dotard Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.21 02:18:00 - [64] Gee Whiz, I usually only ask 2-3 million for the dang item. If you're not being nice during my attempted negotiation then I may demand a Frig or Cruiser 1v1 for your item back. I'm very reasonable when it comes to ransomed mission items. As some previous poster said, Pay up or Fail.Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.21 12:47:00 - [65] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Venkul Mul Your thread speak of a "Mission reset exploit" not of "give the GM a comprehensive and fair set of guidelines". So I reply to your thread and your OP. Read below. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn <snip>This is an exploit that must be fixed, as it gives Mission Runners the ability to re-run the Mission, and does not give them the 'risk' of failing the Mission itself. Of course, they always have the ability to check the local Market and 'buy' the Mission Critical Item, however, this GM sanctioned exploit should NOT be permitted. Consider it this way: A Mission Runner doesn't want to engage a Player who's stolen their Mission Item. That's fine, they don't have to. (They aren't being forced to, either.) The Mission Runner has the ability to 'fail' the Mission by closing it, thus, losing standings, or wait until after downtime so that the Mission resets itself.</snip> A GM should not interfere with the natural gameplay of Mission Running, even if someone enters a Mission for the purpose of stealing the Mission Item. <snip> I would like to see this problem fixed, so that ALL GM's are aware that they CANNOT reset the Mission if the Mission Runner has had their item 'stolen' by an opportunistic player. Here is the information you're claiming doesn't exist, right from my OP, and if you need a translator, perhaps one of the kind denizens of New Eden could help you out. The content of a post is much, much more than the title. Corrected your use of accurate removal of part of the text. You are asking for the correction of a specific problem that you haven't proved exist. And you are trying to pass it as a general problem blaming the GM for action they (for all I know and for what has been proved) they don't do.
Myrhial Arkenath Ghost Festival	Posted - 2009.01.21 12:54:00 - [66] Seed all mission items on the market and this gets my support. Make the price high enough so a lower price can be asked by the loot thief. That should make both parties happy, no?
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.21 13:45:00 - [67] Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath Seed all mission items on the market and this gets my support. Make the price high enough so a lower price can be asked by the loot thief. That should make both parties happy, no? That works for me. Of course, if you've ever checked the Market, there's always a huge amount of Mission Items there for the purchasing now. It might just be that the Mission Runner is unaware (and who am I to tell them?) but still, they are available, and usually at very reasonable prices.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.21 20:17:00 - [68] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath Seed all mission items on the market and this gets my support. Make the price high enough so a lower price can be asked by the loot thief. That should make both parties happy, no? That works for me. Of course, if you've ever checked the Market, there's always a huge amount of Mission Items there for the purchasing now. It might just be that the Mission Runner is unaware (and who am I to tell them?) but still, they are available, and usually at very reasonable prices. Depend on the mission item. Some are "generic" trade items and can be purchased on market to substitute for those dropped in the mission some are unique items with a name similar to those that can be purchased on market. If you want to check if the item is in one category or the other the easiest way is to r-click on the item and check "view market detail". If it is missing the item is a unique item with an unique id spawned for the mission. Eve a similar (same name/same characteristics) item spawned for another mission will not do. There are particular items spawned for some mission that have no market bar but can substitute for the same item in another mission, but those are items spawned in event missions that you can do only once.
Wardo21	Posted - 2009.01.21 23:00:00 - [69] /not supported, if in fact the petitions are getting granted in the first place. (I think they should.) When my mission running fit has some usefulness in this sort of PvP encounter, then it's not harassment. As it stands now, the item thief has a ship he knows will be at an advantage against 90% of the ships he's likely to face in the mission. If the thief recognizes the mission they might even have time to tailor their damage output to go against a weak spot in the mission runners tank. (Hrm, a Raven in a Guristas mission, I think I will switch to an EM damage gank setup...) Not to mention how many mission runners carry a point on their ships? That's about the last thing you need in a NPC mission. There is no real risk to the thief unless they get alpha strike destroyed, or for some other reason can't warp off fast enough for the incoming DPS.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.22 00:59:00 - [70] Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 22/01/2009 00:59:13 Originally by: Wardo21 When my mission running fit has some usefulness in this sort of PvP encounter, then it's not harassment. It's not harassment now, or there would be actions taken against the perpetrator, which there are not. Originally by: Wardo21 As it stands now, the item thief has a ship he knows will be at an advantage against 90% of the ships he's likely to face in the mission. If the thief recognizes the mission they might even have time to tailor their damage output to go against a weak spot in the mission runners tank. (Hrm, a Raven in a Guristas mission, I think I will switch to an EM damage gank setup...) Welcome to EvE. Been here long? Originally by: Wardo21 Not to mention how many mission runners carry a point on their ships? That's about the last thing you need in a NPC mission. There is no real risk to the thief unless they get alpha strike destroyed, or for some other reason can't warp off fast enough for the incoming DPS. Exactly right, and exactly why it's done. Here's a tip - don't engage the thief. I have a question for you - let's say your Mission is invaded by someone stealing the Mission Item, and you petition to have it reset. You get it, and the thief returns to steal the item again. So, you have it reset again. What happens when the thief petitions you for harassment, since he now has had to steal the Mission Item twice. (You're obviously griefing him, because your exploiting the GM's Mission Reset and not using "normal game mechanics", a term which is quoted - oh so much - in the forums.) What then? Why is it fair for you to call foul on harassment and not them?

Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.22 06:43:00 - [71] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 22/01/2009 00:59:13 Originally by: Wardo21 When my mission running fit has some usefulness in this sort of PvP encounter, then it's not harassment. It's not harassment now, or there would be actions taken against the perpetrator, which there are not. Originally by: Wardo21 As it stands now, the item thief has a ship he knows will be at an advantage against 90% of the ships he's likely to face in the mission. If the thief recognizes the mission they might even have time to tailor their damage output to go against a weak spot in the mission runners tank. (Hrm, a Raven in a Guristas mission, I think I will switch to an EM damage gank setup...) Welcome to EvE. Been here long? Originally by: Wardo21 Not to mention how many mission runners carry a point on their ships? That's about the last thing you need in a NPC mission. There is no real risk to the thief unless they get alpha strike destroyed, or for some other reason can't warp off fast enough for the incoming DPS. Exactly right, and exactly why it's done. Here's a tip - don't engage the thief. I have a question for you - let's say your Mission is invaded by someone stealing the Mission Item, and you petition to have it reset. You get it, and the thief returns to steal the item again. So, you have it reset again. What happens when the thief petitions you for harassment, since he now has had to steal the Mission Item twice. (You're obviously griefing him, because your exploiting the GM's Mission Reset and not using "normal game mechanics", a term which is quoted - oh so much - in the forums.) What then? Why is it fair for you to call foul on harassment and not them? The Answer is obvious... the GM would laugh at the thief because its obvious the thief is harassing the mission running with intent to disrupt. Oh... I'm sorry... that's common sense. I guess you where expect us to fall for your trap of ill-fated-greed-infested logic? You really think the GM's are that dense to not check the logs and track history? Oh I'm sorry... is the poor little ninja salvager crying for his ransom because the pilot is reporting "harassment"? No favor will be given to you people because you have zero risk. You reading my lips? ZERO RISK Period... And until there is risk... you will not be heard. I don't care if your queen of the galaxy. That's the bottom line right there.
DrWh0 Gallente Cubewanos	Posted - 2009.01.22 07:39:00 - [72] I think the system in place needs refining alittle as I have no qualms about somebody entering a mission I am doing and cleaning up after me but do have problems about somebody stealing a mission specific item that is not seeded on the market. Why not make the system better to keep the salvagers on thier toes, randomize the mission item and make that the only item in the salvage that can not be taken by a ninja salvager without some kind of penalty sort of like a booby trap. Maybe this will put some risk into the profession it should be. And a final though I had, were do you draw the line between griefing and normal gameplay ?
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:07:00 - [73] Originally by: Drake Draconis And until there is risk... you will not be heard. I don't care if your queen of the galaxy. Thank Me (heh - bigger than the Queen) that you're not the only voice to be heard. That's a very limited view you have there - "Tchell Dahhn is being selfish, so let's not even listen the ideas that make sense." That's ok - Mission Runners aren't the only Players in the game.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:29:00 - [74] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Drake Draconis And until there is risk... you will not be heard. I don't care if your queen of the galaxy. Thank Me (heh - bigger than the Queen) that you're not the only voice to be heard. That's a very limited view you have there - "Tchell Dahhn is being selfish, so let's not even listen the ideas that make sense." That's ok - Mission Runners aren't the only Players in the game. Sorry to burst your bubble tchell... but your stuffed up pride is making you stupid. The Voice I speak is one of rationality and reason.... unbiased with the fact that I'm not really interested in the greed or ego of EVE... I seek to play the game to be constructive and to further my corporation.... the games too large for self indulgence. Your trying to make the bank robber look like the victim in this sad little tale of your so called "exploit" complaint. While you have valid points... the underlining agenda is a little too obvious.. and that is why you will be ignored. As I've said a thousand times... until there is risk... you will not get your wish. All you have to do is scan probe out the mission area... show up... salvage..and leave with a ton of ISK. One would call that ISK farming... Zero effort.... very little time invovled.. and you make out like a bandit. Someone war decs you.. you go hide in your little hole and wait it out... or run off.... even if you did fight youd have better finances than anyone else combined. Ninja Salvaging at the time of its first inception may look like a valid tactic... but any tactic overused/abused would quickly change that opinion... Case and point: Ghost training. And that's undeniable. Whats going to happen if you salvage a wreck and you get aggro? How about taking a security hit for interfering with empire mission's? After all you are interfering in the affairs of the said sovereign empires that hand out these missions. You may think I'm just rattling my gums for the sake of the carebears you oh so hate with a passion. But in reallity its because of those carebears your making millions if not billions.... with very very little effort. Even then.... this so called mission reset exploit is actually in your favor... so it gets reset... that means more wrecks to clean up. Guess you didn't think of that did you? Don't want double the trit bars tchell? Lost your way have you? Everyone knows that mission payouts are worthless.... salvage is what makes the ISK. And your little business of taking advantage of that... daresay "Exploiting" that fact is going to get a little negative attention... because you are not getting any danger or risk from doing it to begin with... until you decide to get even more greedy and steal the loot and then hold mission items for ransom. this is why this topic falls under a controversial category.... and one that will not be paid attention too until CCP finds the time to bother listening... they have other things to take care of... Until there is a defense against invasion of missions... I'm not going to sit here at let people be blinded by your "holier than thou" attitude. Your excuse of "Shooting back when they take loot" is completely unreasonable unless the mission runner is smart enough to use tactics to wait out the aggro timer... and even then its destructive to the mission runners environment. Which in turn leads to the age old argument of eliminate the mission runners and send them packing to low-sec or endless war-decs. At that rate I might as well go get a copy of Warhammer online and say frak it. But we aren't there yet... and I'm hopefull CCP won't fall prey to such things. =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:52:00 - [75] Originally by: Drake Draconis Passionate, passionate words. I stand corrected. You have made me rethink my entire profession, and I thank you for your input.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.22 18:05:00 - [76] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 22/01/2009 18:07:42 T.T; =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Monotard	Posted - 2009.01.22 18:20:00 - [77] No proof. Apart from an Alt 'claiming' he got a mission reset. Maybe he did it to annoy the Ninja guys. It looks like it worked because now Tchell is crying. Make sure you catch some of your own tears to fuel your ships. Zero support for a 'profession' which is below Corp Theft in my book.
Number 86 Eat Ship and Die	Posted - 2009.01.22 18:39:00 - [78] hmm, some peoples children
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.22 19:26:00 - [79] Funny who this whole thing stems from a single quote from a GM.... =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.22 19:56:00 - [80] Originally by: Drake Draconis Funny who this whole thing stems from a single quote from a GM.... Technically, two. Both CCP Ytterbium and CCP Prism X seem to share the same opinion, which leads me to believe there's more 'silent' support at CCP that we don't hear from.

Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.01.22 23:58:00 - [81] Originally by: Drake Draconis Sorry to burst your bubble tchell... but your stuffed up pride is making you stupid. The Voice I speak is one of rationality and reason.... Who's the one with the stuffed up pride? It is not for you to declare that you speak with the voice of rationality and reason. Your abuse of ellipses marks you as an undisciplined thinker. I fully support Tchell's proposal - that GM's be given a firm guide on the conditions under which a mission-space reset is considered appropriate. If someone steals your mission loot, just fail the mission. It costs you less than one-third the reputation gain from a successfully completed mission. And Drake, please leave the ellipses alone. All those pauses in the sentences might be dramatic when you're coming to the denouement in an epic adventure story, but as part of an argument over rules of a game they're pretentious and make it look like your brain isn't fast enough to keep up with the argument.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.23 00:10:00 - [82] Originally by: Mara Rinn Originally by: Drake Draconis Sorry to burst your bubble tchell... but your stuffed up pride is making you stupid. The Voice I speak is one of rationality and reason.... Who's the one with the stuffed up pride? It is not for you to declare that you speak with the voice of rationality and reason. Your abuse of ellipses marks you as an undisciplined thinker. I fully support Tchell's proposal - that GM's be given a firm guide on the conditions under which a mission-space reset is considered appropriate. If someone steals your mission loot, just fail the mission. It costs you less than one-third the reputation gain from a successfully completed mission. And Drake, please leave the ellipses alone. All those pauses in the sentences might be dramatic when you're coming to the denouement in an epic adventure story, but as part of an argument over rules of a game they're pretentious and make it look like your brain isn't fast enough to keep up with the argument. Says pot calling kettle black. =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.23 00:19:00 - [83] Don't make me come back there! I swear I will turn this ship around! We're Recruiting!
Grann Thefauto Apeshit Assassins	Posted - 2009.01.23 00:43:00 - [84] support.
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.23 01:40:00 - [85] Edited by: Saphirro on 23/01/2009 01:41:02 Originally by: Drake Draconis Sorry to burst your bubble tchell... but your stuffed up pride is making you stupid. The Voice I speak is one of rationality and reason.... unbiased with the fact that I'm not really interested in the greed or ego of EVE... I seek to play the game to be constructive and to further my corporation.... the games too large for self indulgence. Your trying to make the bank robber look like the victim in this sad little tale of your so called "exploit" complaint. My god that post is hard to read. Talk about horrible formatting. (Please don't actually do that.) The bank robber would actually be the victim in a world where the law is that he is perfectly within his rights and the law to steal the item, and the banker cries foul and gets divine assistance to generate a new one from thin air. If this does indeed take place (And I believe it used to, even if it no longer does) then it's not a level playing field. GM's should stick to their word of no intervention on the missions. Rationality and reason you say? The words of a fool seem true to himself don't they?
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.23 18:57:00 - [86] Originally by: Saphirro Edited by: Saphirro on 23/01/2009 01:41:02 Originally by: Drake Draconis Sorry to burst your bubble tchell... but your stuffed up pride is making you stupid. The Voice I speak is one of rationality and reason.... unbiased with the fact that I'm not really interested in the greed or ego of EVE... I seek to play the game to be constructive and to further my corporation.... the games too large for self indulgence. Your trying to make the bank robber look like the victim in this sad little tale of your so called "exploit" complaint. My god that post is hard to read. Talk about horrible formatting. (Please don't actually do that.) The bank robber would actually be the victim in a world where the law is that he is perfectly within his rights and the law to steal the item, and the banker cries foul and gets divine assistance to generate a new one from thin air. If this does indeed take place (And I believe it used to, even if it no longer does) then it's not a level playing field. GM's should stick to their word of no intervention on the missions. Rationality and reason you say? The words of a fool seem true to himself don't they? Again... says the Pot calling the Kettle black.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.23 19:58:00 - [87] Don't make me come back there! I swear I will turn this ship around!
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.23 20:51:00 - [88] Originally by: Drake Draconis Again... says the Pot calling the Kettle black. Good answer. You know, for when you can't really think of a reasoned response. ____________________________________ Google - 'Rata Nrnima bunyip issler'


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