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[Issue] Mission Reset Exploit

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Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.17 19:16:00 - [31] Originally by: Venkul Mul Some reply by people that actually do missions and don't steal loot and salvage for isk and giggles would be much more credible. ITT: People missing the point. Regardless of your personal view of who's credible (and I'm beyond reproach, tyvm - why do you think I'm not an NPC Ninja?) or not, don't you think supporting a 'fair and just GM exploit resolution rulebook' is a good idea? If not, feel free to not respond, because I'm leaning towards that chance that you might be trolling my thread. We're Recruiting!
Karentaki Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:10:00 - [32] Supported - This is a blatant exploit of the petition system by both the players and any GMs involved. I have done this in the past as a way to get money from mission runners. Unfortunately one of them shot me, losing his ship, and another just refused to pay, but at least their decision resulted in loss of standings so they had some incentive to pay up. I don't appreciate how CCP seem to be constantly making highsec safer. Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:11:00 - [33] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Venkul Mul Some reply by people that actually do missions and don't steal loot and salvage for isk and giggles would be much more credible. ITT: People missing the point. Regardless of your personal view of who's credible (and I'm beyond reproach, tyvm - why do you think I'm not an NPC Ninja?) or not, don't you think supporting a 'fair and just GM exploit resolution rulebook' is a good idea? If not, feel free to not respond, because I'm leaning towards that chance that you might be trolling my thread. Nah, judging by some of his posts he just thinks he knows everything. Offical Stance: No problem here, move on out people, nothing to see... btw: That GM's don't have a guide of rules for resetting missions and go with their gut... I think that's true of most of the things that happen in this game not just missions. ____________________________________ Google - 'Rata Nrnima bunyip issler'
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:13:00 - [34] Oh and supported. If they aren't resetting missions, then where are the threads of outcry from the mission running community? ____________________________________ Google - 'Rata Nrnima bunyip issler'
Captain Pompous	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:13:00 - [35] Edited by: Captain Pompous on 17/01/2009 23:13:34 Originally by: Tchell Dahhn this GM sanctioned exploit should NOT be permitted. I'm sorry, "GM sanctioned exploit" sounds very much like the game rules to me and a bad case of sour grapes on your part
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:21:00 - [36] Originally by: Captain Pompous Edited by: Captain Pompous on 17/01/2009 23:13:34 Originally by: Tchell Dahhn this GM sanctioned exploit should NOT be permitted. I'm sorry, "GM sanctioned exploit" sounds very much like the game rules to me and a bad case of sour grapes on your part Do you think the rules (if they exist) state: If you find a juicy mission and claim that another player took your mission critical object regardless of whether said item was taken or not - then please feel free to contact a GM to have the mission reset. ____________________________________ Google - 'Rata Nrnima bunyip issler'
Captain Pompous	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:26:00 - [37] Originally by: Saphirro Originally by: Captain Pompous Edited by: Captain Pompous on 17/01/2009 23:13:34 Originally by: Tchell Dahhn this GM sanctioned exploit should NOT be permitted. I'm sorry, "GM sanctioned exploit" sounds very much like the game rules to me and a bad case of sour grapes on your part Do you think the rules (if they exist) state: If you find a juicy mission and claim that another player took your mission critical object regardless of whether said item was taken or not - then please feel free to contact a GM to have the mission reset. As Jason Edwards stated before, your options in this instance are really more limited than may appear. How else to complete the mission if the person who took the loot is ransoming it beyond your ability to pay, and the mission is flagged as completed and thus will not respawn with the next DT?
Karentaki Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:35:00 - [38] Originally by: Captain Pompous Originally by: Saphirro Originally by: Captain Pompous Edited by: Captain Pompous on 17/01/2009 23:13:34 Originally by: Tchell Dahhn this GM sanctioned exploit should NOT be permitted. I'm sorry, "GM sanctioned exploit" sounds very much like the game rules to me and a bad case of sour grapes on your part Do you think the rules (if they exist) state: If you find a juicy mission and claim that another player took your mission critical object regardless of whether said item was taken or not - then please feel free to contact a GM to have the mission reset. As Jason Edwards stated before, your options in this instance are really more limited than may appear. How else to complete the mission if the person who took the loot is ransoming it beyond your ability to pay, and the mission is flagged as completed and thus will not respawn with the next DT? Then tough luck - you had the chance to stop the mission item from being taken because the thief got aggro. If the thief really wants to screw you over, he can do, and that's what is great about EVE. You can always screw him over later on in some way if you really want revenge. However, it is VERY unlikely that any thief would demand an unreasonable ransom for an item that is otherwise worthless. They want to make money just as much as you do, and there's no point demanding an amount that won't be payed. A reasonable amount for the standings for a L4 mission would probably be around 20 mill, which is what, about an hour of grinding? Essentially, stop crying, and learn to negotiate.
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:43:00 - [39] Originally by: Captain Pompous How else to complete the mission if the person who took the loot is ransoming it beyond your ability to pay, and the mission is flagged as completed and thus will not respawn with the next DT? If stealing the mission critical loot is not an exploit, and is harrassment that goes unpunished, what's to stop me stealing that loot from good missions with another account and then getting them reset? Or getting a friend to do it on an alt. Maybe for your example, the objective should not be flagged as 'complete' until you have taken the item back to claim the reward and the mission itself is completed.
Captain Pompous	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:10:00 - [40] Edited by: Captain Pompous on 18/01/2009 00:13:32 Originally by: Karentaki However, it is VERY unlikely that any thief would demand an unreasonable ransom for an item that is otherwise worthless. No. Simply put, the fact is they can demand whatever they goddamn feel like for it, and the fact that there is no upper ceiling to that means that they could very easily demand a ridiculous sum and when you fail to pay up, they just walk away laughing their little heads off. And the bolded part merely amplifies the viewpoint that what they are doing does indeed consitute harrassment.

Captain Pompous	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:13:00 - [41] Originally by: Saphirro Originally by: Captain Pompous How else to complete the mission if the person who took the loot is ransoming it beyond your ability to pay, and the mission is flagged as completed and thus will not respawn with the next DT? If stealing the mission critical loot is not an exploit, and is harrassment that goes unpunished, what's to stop me stealing that loot from good missions with another account and then getting them reset? Or getting a friend to do it on an alt. Maybe for your example, the objective should not be flagged as 'complete' until you have taken the item back to claim the reward and the mission itself is completed. Right, I am of course only in favour of this in legitimate cases of harrassment, and not someone using an alt (as you say) in order to capitalise on a particularly lucrative mission). I like the proposal you put forward - that would realistically provide a viable path out of the situation, should the OP get their way
Ankhesentapemkah	Posted - 2009.01.18 07:22:00 - [42] I agree that players shouldn't be able to petition it and get off the hook this easy. On the other hand, I actually did have two genuine cases of the mission item not dropping or courier item not appearing in cargo bay, and I think it's hard for CCP to discern in all cases if the item got stolen/destroyed instead of not appearing due to a bug of sorts.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.18 08:49:00 - [43] Edited by: Malcanis on 18/01/2009 08:53:51 Agreed 100% Either make missions instances, or advise GMs what sandbox play means.
Terra Mikael SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:12:00 - [44] **ing supported. Ya know, I used to think all the ass licking your corp members did to you in these forums was pretty sad, but even being the stubborn idiot I am, I can occasionally admit when I'm wrong about something. Maybe all that ass kissing isn't unwarrented at all, you have some damn good ideas, and I support all of them so far. Hurry up and run for CSM, these dumbtarded CSMs we have now are all failbears, and probably support GM intervention for their magic high sec, risk-free isk machine. When I take somebody's damsel/marines/freedom fighters/yadda yadda, they should be able to either take them from my can at my leisure, buy them from me, or get them from the market. That's it. I never knew this kinda crap was occuring. thanks for the heads up. ________________________________ Originally by:** Korovyov You WIN! And by win, I mean suck horse manure.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:26:00 - [45] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Venkul Mul Some reply by people that actually do missions and don't steal loot and salvage for isk and giggles would be much more credible. ITT: People missing the point. Regardless of your personal view of who's credible (and I'm beyond reproach, tyvm - why do you think I'm not an NPC Ninja?) or not, don't you think supporting a 'fair and just GM exploit resolution rulebook' is a good idea? If not, feel free to not respond, because I'm leaning towards that chance that you might be trolling my thread. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn There is an issue that exists where if a Player scans down a Mission and steals the item that is required to get to complete the Mission, the Mission Runner can open a petition to have his Mission reset because he does not want to 'pay' the other Player to get the item back, and does not want to let natural game mechanics to take their course. You are not asking for a 'fair and just GM exploit resolution rulebook', you are crying that a specific exploit exist and that the GM are accessory to it. And what is doing a corp called "Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service"? Hard to guess, right? I am not trolling your thread, I am truly convinced that you are strongly biased in your OP and motivated reasons that are far away for fieriness and justice.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:33:00 - [46] Originally by: Saphirro [ Do you think the rules (if they exist) state: If you find a juicy mission and claim that another player took your mission critical object regardless of whether said item was taken or not - then please feel free to contact a GM to have the mission reset. The point if so far I have seen no credible proof of missions being reset if not for noob players or bugs. It is always "some alliance member had said that he can get them reset". Who said that? When it happened? If you have some GM mail or player mail saying that the mission was reset, petition against it and if refused escalate and go to the internal affairs. Stealing loot is a valid action, has always been, but I have never heard from a credible source that a mission will be reset if the crucial mission loot is stolen. So for the Nth tiem, you have any proof?
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:17:00 - [47] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Saphirro [ Do you think the rules (if they exist) state: If you find a juicy mission and claim that another player took your mission critical object regardless of whether said item was taken or not - then please feel free to contact a GM to have the mission reset. The point if so far I have seen no credible proof of missions being reset if not for noob players or bugs. It is always "some alliance member had said that he can get them reset". Who said that? When it happened? If you have some GM mail or player mail saying that the mission was reset, petition against it and if refused escalate and go to the internal affairs. Stealing loot is a valid action, has always been, but I have never heard from a credible source that a mission will be reset if the crucial mission loot is stolen. So for the Nth tiem, you have any proof? In the hypothetical case that such proof could be obtained, would you support Tchell's proposal?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:25:00 - [48] Originally by: Malcanis In the hypothetical case that such proof could be obtained, would you support Tchell's proposal? Yes. I can see people petitioning for a mission reset for noobs errors (and while they are new players) or bugs, not for other player actions. It can be annoying if someone steal your target item, but it is part of the game.
fuze Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.01.18 13:22:00 - [49] Like it has been said before. If the item didn't appear of a bug it should be reset. But I don't think to the practical side a GM can determine if it was a bug or another player. So it all boils back to the mechanics side. So if it was 'acquired' by some other player it should set off a flag and the mission runner should be able to take it back by force and add a little flair to the mission.
Terra Mikael SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.01.18 13:59:00 - [50] Oh, and stop feeding the trolls, ffs

Esmenet	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:04:00 - [51]
Kuranta Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:43:00 - [52] Edited by: Kuranta on 18/01/2009 14:43:34 Obviously, CCP schould at least make sure that the rules they state in the forums are beeing carried out. One should not forget that some mission runner might only claim to have gotten back the mission item to discurage pirates from doing so again.
Avalon Champion Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency	Posted - 2009.01.19 08:26:00 - [53] Being an occasional mission runner, i beleive the missions should only be reset in the case of a mission bug, item not dropped, key rat doesnt spawn, etc. which should all be in the logs, though it may take time to go through them. I dont think its the standing drop that people worry about as much as the LP loss that they would have gotten for completing the mission, especially in a faction navy mission. With regard to GM's resetting missions, it would be interesting to see the stats on how many missions get completed compared to those reset on a weekly basis and the reasons behind the resets. To mission runners, if you know that a firm like TEARS operate in an area, find somewhere else to run-missions, or accept that they will bust into the mission and salvage it.
Karentaki Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.19 19:39:00 - [54] Originally by: Captain Pompous Edited by: Captain Pompous on 18/01/2009 00:13:32 Originally by: Karentaki However, it is VERY unlikely that any thief would demand an unreasonable ransom for an item that is otherwise worthless. No. Simply put, the fact is they can demand whatever they goddamn feel like for it, and the fact that there is no upper ceiling to that means that they could very easily demand a ridiculous sum and when you fail to pay up, they just walk away laughing their little heads off. And the bolded part merely amplifies the viewpoint that what they are doing does indeed consitute harrassment. Also, people can sell modules for stupid prices on the market in remote regions griefing people who want to buy stuff. Of course nobody would ever buy those items, but IT'S STILL GRIEFING!!! Thus, traders are griefers... As for your suggestion that it's harassment, you are stupid. It's worthless to everyone except the mission runner, to which it is worth quite a bit. Since they are trying to sell it to the mission runner alone, then it's value it considerable. However, if the mission runner refuses to pay up, THEN it is worthless. Essentially, they griefed you by trying to sell you something for an excessive price!!! Just to demonstrate how stupid this is, say I attacked your ship and ransomed you for 100,000,000,000,000 ISK, an obviously unreasonable sum. By your logic this is griefing because they are asking too much. However, it is no different to them just blowing you up in the first place, which is perfectly legal. Therefore this is not griefing. Assuming you're in a T2 rigged T2 BS with T1 fittings, the ship is worth a lot, but it will drop very little of worth if destroyed. Now this is no different to the 'griefer' stealing the mission item and charging an excessive amount for it, yet it is obviously within game mechanics. Therefore, your arguament fails. Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.20 19:42:00 - [55] Originally by: Venkul Mul And what is doing a corp called "Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service"? Hard to guess, right? You've got it - we're Ninja Salvagers and Looters. That being said, we've seen first hand the damage Mission Runners do to a system (come to Dodixie for the Missions, stay for the lag) and we do our best to clean up the clutter. Regardless of whether we steal your Mission Item or not, is it fair for the Mission Runner to reset their Mission? Give me a RP reason why this might work? (Oh, all of the sudden, we're suddenly rocketed backwards in time? This isn't Star Trek.) Originally by: Venkul Mul I am not trolling your thread, I am truly convinced that you are strongly biased in your OP and motivated reasons that are far away for fairiness and justice. "Fairiness" aside (sorry, couldn't resist) it's an issue that needs fixing. At the very least, Devs must be held accountable to a certain level of discretion, and this must be upheld across the board. If it's not fair to reset a Mission because someone stole the Mission Item, then everybody should be held to the same rule. Originally by: Malcanis In the hypothetical case that such proof could be obtained, would you support Tchell's proposal? I'm guessing no. Somebody seems a bit too biased against us. We're Recruiting!
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.20 20:01:00 - [56] With all due respect.... valid reasons aside.... all your doing is weakening the barrier that leaves some risk to literally zero risk. you guys have it made in the shade... you have literally no risk at all in what you do.. and yet you ask for "moar". If anyone is guilty of bias.. its you Tchell... right down to the core. your just too damn proud to admit it. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.20 20:59:00 - [57] Originally by: Drake Draconis With all due respect.... valid reasons aside.... all your doing is weakening the barrier that leaves some risk to literally zero risk. I'll admit it - there's no risk today! I've figured out that Frigates (my Frigates, anyhow) can easily tank 3+ Mission BS's for the duration of the salvaging expedition, and that there's little a Mission Runner can do to combat what I do. Sure, I'll lose some Salvage to fast tractors or blown wrecks, but yeah. There's nothing that can really hurt me in a Mission. (...kinda like the Mission Runners, eh?) Originally by: Drake Draconis If anyone is guilty of bias.. its you Tchell... right down to the core. I invite you to look up an old post I made in regards to smarter AI, including Mission Rats that would appear specifically to aggro suddenly appearing Ninja Salvagers, and smarter AI that could follow you out of a Mission if you ran. Both of these options were ideas to increase the flexibility and immersion of the Mission Running system, and not further bork it, as it is today with the "perpetually resetting mission" hack. I'm not biased per se, but I'll fight to keep what I have now for as long as I can.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.20 21:18:00 - [58] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Venkul Mul And what is doing a corp called "Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service"? Hard to guess, right? You've got it - we're Ninja Salvagers and Looters. That being said, we've seen first hand the damage Mission Runners do to a system (come to Dodixie for the Missions, stay for the lag) and we do our best to clean up the clutter. Regardless of whether we steal your Mission Item or not, is it fair for the Mission Runner to reset their Mission? Give me a RP reason why this might work? (Oh, all of the sudden, we're suddenly rocketed backwards in time? This isn't Star Trek.) Originally by: Venkul Mul I am not trolling your thread, I am truly convinced that you are strongly biased in your OP and motivated reasons that are far away for fairiness and justice. "Fairiness" aside (sorry, couldn't resist) it's an issue that needs fixing. At the very least, Devs must be held accountable to a certain level of discretion, and this must be upheld across the board. If it's not fair to reset a Mission because someone stole the Mission Item, then everybody should be held to the same rule. Originally by: Malcanis In the hypothetical case that such proof could be obtained, would you support Tchell's proposal? I'm guessing no. Somebody seems a bit too biased against us. The point is that thie "exploit" don't happen. The only "proof" you put out is the word of your unknown alliance mate that can set them reset. I asked again and again for some prof, at least the name of this guy that say he can get his mission reset regularly. What you do is to cite yourself again like you were a source of divine truth. I have never heard someone I know in game saying that he has got a mission reset after the mission goal item had been stole and I know enough mission runners. So ask this guy to post here, saying what are his magic words to get the mission reset.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.20 21:21:00 - [59] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 20/01/2009 21:21:44
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.20 21:22:00 - [60] Originally by: Venkul Mul The point is that thie "exploit" don't happen. The only "proof" you put out is the word of your unknown alliance mate that can set them reset. Wow, that's a good argument. "It doesn't happen, so there's no need to hold CCP accountable to a set of rules." I'm being rational. You're being foolish. I'm done responding to your foolishness. It's obvious you have no intent on agreeing, so I'll ask you (again) to troll elsewhere. We're Recruiting!



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