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6666
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Posted - 2004.07.28 17:47:00 -
[1]
Following your sticky post with regards to not using different class modules on given ships i would like to make a few comments...
.Using various modules from differing ship classes not only ads to the diversity of the game but makes it more interesing...hence it makes it more fun!
Please Please ..you really need to consider very carefully your proposal of not allowing a given ship class to use that of another.
For example..100ab on a cruiser.....this set up entails given up a great deal of other options..to simply not allow this module to be used is, frankly, insane
Alot of people have trained long and hard to allow them to use a given ship in a manner they see fit..to simply disregard this would i feel be inappropriate in the extreme.
For example if I was to buy a car in real life..say a Ferrari(i wish!) then i would be buying a product for a specific purpose...speed and handling for example.
Ok ive got my nice Ferrari and i decide to add some after-market bits and pieces..make it go faster..make it look better etc etc
Then i even do months of training to improve my driving skills.....all money and time well spent i thinks!
But wait! Ferrari call me up and tell me they are gona take my car back..nerf it..make it slower..take all my after-market goodies off and give it back to me exactly how I DONT want it!
Not going to happen is it?..But you see my point i hope!!
Because a given ship uses modules from other ship classes does not mean this is either wrong or inappropriate..simply means people are using what is available to them and making various sacrifices to achieve this
Also a great deal of your customers simply do not have the time/inclination/funds to get a uber Battleship or whatever.....what they do is make what is available to them as FUN as possible
There are many ways to combat given ships with different ship class modules on them..simply not allowing folk to fit these modules is not the way to go!
People may well be sick to the back teeth of super fast frigs/interceptors etc..but the fact remains these ships can be caught and killed(if thats what the purpose is)...the fault is not down to the modules but the lack of innovation on the individuals part.
Please please CCP/TomB/Devs listen up dudes....Dont spoil the game we all love
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6666
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 17:47:00 -
[2]
Following your sticky post with regards to not using different class modules on given ships i would like to make a few comments...
.Using various modules from differing ship classes not only ads to the diversity of the game but makes it more interesing...hence it makes it more fun!
Please Please ..you really need to consider very carefully your proposal of not allowing a given ship class to use that of another.
For example..100ab on a cruiser.....this set up entails given up a great deal of other options..to simply not allow this module to be used is, frankly, insane
Alot of people have trained long and hard to allow them to use a given ship in a manner they see fit..to simply disregard this would i feel be inappropriate in the extreme.
For example if I was to buy a car in real life..say a Ferrari(i wish!) then i would be buying a product for a specific purpose...speed and handling for example.
Ok ive got my nice Ferrari and i decide to add some after-market bits and pieces..make it go faster..make it look better etc etc
Then i even do months of training to improve my driving skills.....all money and time well spent i thinks!
But wait! Ferrari call me up and tell me they are gona take my car back..nerf it..make it slower..take all my after-market goodies off and give it back to me exactly how I DONT want it!
Not going to happen is it?..But you see my point i hope!!
Because a given ship uses modules from other ship classes does not mean this is either wrong or inappropriate..simply means people are using what is available to them and making various sacrifices to achieve this
Also a great deal of your customers simply do not have the time/inclination/funds to get a uber Battleship or whatever.....what they do is make what is available to them as FUN as possible
There are many ways to combat given ships with different ship class modules on them..simply not allowing folk to fit these modules is not the way to go!
People may well be sick to the back teeth of super fast frigs/interceptors etc..but the fact remains these ships can be caught and killed(if thats what the purpose is)...the fault is not down to the modules but the lack of innovation on the individuals part.
Please please CCP/TomB/Devs listen up dudes....Dont spoil the game we all love
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reaTh
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Posted - 2004.07.28 17:54:00 -
[3]
if this is adress to ccp cna i join in 
PLEASE CAN U SORT OUT 1400s and blance all the guns 1400s can hit a thing u get 1 shot out 0f 16 Taychons hit everytime with 200 damage and 425 well they juts way off too
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE SORT THSI OUT 
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reaTh
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Posted - 2004.07.28 17:54:00 -
[4]
if this is adress to ccp cna i join in
PLEASE CAN U SORT OUT 1400s and blance all the guns 1400s can hit a thing u get 1 shot out 0f 16 Taychons hit everytime with 200 damage and 425 well they juts way off too
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE SORT THSI OUT
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DHU InMe
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Posted - 2004.07.28 17:55:00 -
[5]
Whoa, your a number.
And no begging won't make dev look more at your post...
Try the eve idea lab forum unstead.
Nice links (updated 20 Dec 04):
BP, bugs about them.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way. |
DHU InMe
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 17:55:00 -
[6]
Whoa, your a number.
And no begging won't make dev look more at your post...
Try the eve idea lab forum unstead.
Nice links (updated 20 Dec 04):
BP, bugs about them.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way. |
Dexter Rast
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 17:58:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Dexter Rast on 28/07/2004 18:00:11
agreed 100% with 6`s
to keep taking aspects away from the game is insane, 99% of all combat players love to fight at speed, that is why so many battleship pilots are content to buzz around in interceptors all day, sure some like to fit 10mn ab`s to keep a bit of cap and extra sheilds, they certainly do not help with speed as a 1mn mwd is faster.
playes do use both options, pilots i know use both mwd`s and ab`s for varying situations, this again is diversity and it also opens up a whole new line of potential ship setups available to us YOUR PAYING CUSTOMERS.
so in the future if you want speed you are basicly limited to a mwd and thats it.
if the change is in some way a part of a greater plan then plz let us know about it, but there is alot of bad feeling with the proposed change to fitting various ship class modules and different ships.
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Dexter Rast
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Posted - 2004.07.28 17:58:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Dexter Rast on 28/07/2004 18:00:11
agreed 100% with 6`s
to keep taking aspects away from the game is insane, 99% of all combat players love to fight at speed, that is why so many battleship pilots are content to buzz around in interceptors all day, sure some like to fit 10mn ab`s to keep a bit of cap and extra sheilds, they certainly do not help with speed as a 1mn mwd is faster.
playes do use both options, pilots i know use both mwd`s and ab`s for varying situations, this again is diversity and it also opens up a whole new line of potential ship setups available to us YOUR PAYING CUSTOMERS.
so in the future if you want speed you are basicly limited to a mwd and thats it.
if the change is in some way a part of a greater plan then plz let us know about it, but there is alot of bad feeling with the proposed change to fitting various ship class modules and different ships.
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Ramiel Var
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Posted - 2004.07.28 18:03:00 -
[9]
I think its funny that people think its okay to put frig and cruiser guns on your BS, but its not okay to put cruiser mods on your frig....irony in its purest form.
-RAM
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Ramiel Var
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Posted - 2004.07.28 18:03:00 -
[10]
I think its funny that people think its okay to put frig and cruiser guns on your BS, but its not okay to put cruiser mods on your frig....irony in its purest form.
-RAM
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6666
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Posted - 2004.07.28 18:06:00 -
[11]
Agreed...Another irony would be that it would kill off my corp(some may be glad of this of course) But that would lead to folk leaving EVE completely which is surely no good for any of us
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6666
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Posted - 2004.07.28 18:06:00 -
[12]
Agreed...Another irony would be that it would kill off my corp(some may be glad of this of course) But that would lead to folk leaving EVE completely which is surely no good for any of us
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Rahzelk
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Posted - 2004.07.28 18:07:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Rahzelk on 28/07/2004 18:10:12
The real issue is not only about ABs and MWDs...
All bigger class will be able to fit everything they want from lower classes for free,
there will be a big big CPU vs PGrid unbalance, and as already said, much of original fittings will be totally forbidden, wich is, I think, is the worse of all you can imagine in this game... everyone fitted almost the same due to "class" specific weapon... I thought you were opposed to any class specific things....
I understand the need to re-balance speed of all classes, or more precisely to remove the unbalance caused by oversized AB and multipl AB/MWDs.... Then just find something to forbid oversizing of ABs, not overhaul you all system !
Cause I really don't see any other module that could motivate your suggested choice of multiply by 4 powergrid need on cruiser and by 20 for BS...
And as we said and re-said before, when you fit an oversized module, it is a counterpart for less offense or defense....
Anyway, do these changes and welcome back in "BS World" ! 
(elegance-corp.net)
Do not look where you fell, but where you slipped. |
Rahzelk
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 18:07:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Rahzelk on 28/07/2004 18:10:12
The real issue is not only about ABs and MWDs...
All bigger class will be able to fit everything they want from lower classes for free,
there will be a big big CPU vs PGrid unbalance, and as already said, much of original fittings will be totally forbidden, wich is, I think, is the worse of all you can imagine in this game... everyone fitted almost the same due to "class" specific weapon... I thought you were opposed to any class specific things....
I understand the need to re-balance speed of all classes, or more precisely to remove the unbalance caused by oversized AB and multipl AB/MWDs.... Then just find something to forbid oversizing of ABs, not overhaul you all system !
Cause I really don't see any other module that could motivate your suggested choice of multiply by 4 powergrid need on cruiser and by 20 for BS...
And as we said and re-said before, when you fit an oversized module, it is a counterpart for less offense or defense....
Anyway, do these changes and welcome back in "BS World" !
(elegance-corp.net)
Do not look where you fell, but where you slipped. |
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 18:10:00 -
[15]
Agreed with 6666 entirely.
And I fit frigate sized neutrons on my Thorax because I want to be able to shoot frigates. Isn't that the message we are supposed to be taking from the tracking rules now?
JF Public Forum |
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 18:10:00 -
[16]
Agreed with 6666 entirely.
And I fit frigate sized neutrons on my Thorax because I want to be able to shoot frigates. Isn't that the message we are supposed to be taking from the tracking rules now?
JF Public Forum |
6666
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 18:13:00 -
[17]
Agreed..my reference about a Afterburner was ment as an example only
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6666
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Posted - 2004.07.28 18:13:00 -
[18]
Agreed..my reference about a Afterburner was ment as an example only
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Naqq
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Posted - 2004.07.28 18:25:00 -
[19]
if these changes come in game it would force me to always fly around in a battleship, as my cruisers would not be competeable to battleships(anything with missiles would deffinently own me).
I don't have enough gametime a month to keep myself in a battleship and the time im online, which isn't much, I sure as hell don't wanna sit and stare at a astroid.
TomB, by doing this I can assure you that you'll be kissing all EVEs more casual players goodbye, including myself.
--
"Yarrr..."
[FRIG] promotional video|Training film #1|Training film #2|
|Newsreels: #1,#2,#3(NEW).| |
Naqq
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 18:25:00 -
[20]
if these changes come in game it would force me to always fly around in a battleship, as my cruisers would not be competeable to battleships(anything with missiles would deffinently own me).
I don't have enough gametime a month to keep myself in a battleship and the time im online, which isn't much, I sure as hell don't wanna sit and stare at a astroid.
TomB, by doing this I can assure you that you'll be kissing all EVEs more casual players goodbye, including myself.
--
"Yarrr..."
[FRIG] promotional video|Training film #1|Training film #2|
|Newsreels: #1,#2,#3(NEW).| |
Mikelangelo
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 18:58:00 -
[21]
 Quote:
I think its funny that people think its okay to put frig and cruiser guns on your BS, but its not okay to put cruiser mods on your frig....irony in its purest form.
Absolutely right.
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Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2004.07.28 18:58:00 -
[22]
Quote:
I think its funny that people think its okay to put frig and cruiser guns on your BS, but its not okay to put cruiser mods on your frig....irony in its purest form.
Absolutely right.
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Draximus Cane
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Posted - 2004.07.28 19:06:00 -
[23]
Just dont do it
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Draximus Cane
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Posted - 2004.07.28 19:06:00 -
[24]
Just dont do it
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Rivek
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Posted - 2004.07.28 20:06:00 -
[25]
The freedom of choice of module fitting adds strategic diversity which is clearly a good thing for the game. Remove those options, put us all on railroad tracks toward the one or two viable setups, and you have really diminished the game. |
Rivek
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Posted - 2004.07.28 20:06:00 -
[26]
The freedom of choice of module fitting adds strategic diversity which is clearly a good thing for the game. Remove those options, put us all on railroad tracks toward the one or two viable setups, and you have really diminished the game. |
Weirda
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Posted - 2004.07.28 20:34:00 -
[27]
Could someone please link to stickey thread mentioned in OP? Can't find sticky thread relating to this!
Thanks!
--
Thread Killer
<END TRANSMISSION> |
Weirda
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 20:34:00 -
[28]
Could someone please link to stickey thread mentioned in OP? Can't find sticky thread relating to this!
Thanks!
--
Thread Killer
<END TRANSMISSION> |
Dispader
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 21:00:00 -
[29]
This change is an abomination. Nuff said.
As if CCP TRIED to take fun out of the game. What's next???
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Dispader
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Posted - 2004.07.28 21:00:00 -
[30]
This change is an abomination. Nuff said.
As if CCP TRIED to take fun out of the game. What's next???
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Naqq
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Posted - 2004.07.28 21:26:00 -
[31]
TomB could you at least try to explain yourself instead of just deleting your thread and mention nothing else?
We're alot of players here who is very frustrated tbh.
--
"Yarrr..."
[FRIG] promotional video|Training film #1|Training film #2|
|Newsreels: #1,#2,#3(NEW).| |
Naqq
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 21:26:00 -
[32]
TomB could you at least try to explain yourself instead of just deleting your thread and mention nothing else?
We're alot of players here who is very frustrated tbh.
--
"Yarrr..."
[FRIG] promotional video|Training film #1|Training film #2|
|Newsreels: #1,#2,#3(NEW).| |
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 21:43:00 -
[33]
Thread is in patch review.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 21:43:00 -
[34]
Thread is in patch review.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Flavius Renatus
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 21:48:00 -
[35]
I agree 100% with 6666.
I think TomB must have gotten ganked in his battleship a couple of times by packs of Frigates.
Over the last 2 months he has done nothing but Nerf the roll of the frigate down to high speed taxi and a flying mid-slot for fleet battles.
1. Cruise missle nerf. (kind of agree with this one on Frig's (should be heavys) but Cruisers COME ON!!
2. Sig Radius Boost. Hmmm.... I dont know about the rest of you frig pilots out there but making a run for a gate with insta-lock battleships sitting there with web and lag inspireing Drones out sucks.
3. Now this crap about diffent size modules. Has anyone even brought up the only way to get a 10 mn AB on a frig is to fit an Aux Power Core. Down in Khanid these cost more then the FRIG.
CCP please keep in mind that not all of us can play this game 40 hrs a week. I have a job, wife, and kids. I probable will not be in a battleship for months yet. Which is fine by me. Quit messing with that which is not broken.
I can't believe when I was a couple of months into this game, I made the determination that the only balance changes from an Intra-ship level that needed to be made was for Drones to lose there INSTA LOCK, 100% HIT FOR FULL ability, and for Wrecking Hits on Large Turrets to be turned off for small ships. That was it. GOD look at us now 2 months later and it is starting to make me sick.
Frustrating
Flavius Renatus
(Ancient Roman Military Historian)
Real Power Is Something You Take!!! |
Flavius Renatus
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 21:48:00 -
[36]
I agree 100% with 6666.
I think TomB must have gotten ganked in his battleship a couple of times by packs of Frigates.
Over the last 2 months he has done nothing but Nerf the roll of the frigate down to high speed taxi and a flying mid-slot for fleet battles.
1. Cruise missle nerf. (kind of agree with this one on Frig's (should be heavys) but Cruisers COME ON!!
2. Sig Radius Boost. Hmmm.... I dont know about the rest of you frig pilots out there but making a run for a gate with insta-lock battleships sitting there with web and lag inspireing Drones out sucks.
3. Now this crap about diffent size modules. Has anyone even brought up the only way to get a 10 mn AB on a frig is to fit an Aux Power Core. Down in Khanid these cost more then the FRIG.
CCP please keep in mind that not all of us can play this game 40 hrs a week. I have a job, wife, and kids. I probable will not be in a battleship for months yet. Which is fine by me. Quit messing with that which is not broken.
I can't believe when I was a couple of months into this game, I made the determination that the only balance changes from an Intra-ship level that needed to be made was for Drones to lose there INSTA LOCK, 100% HIT FOR FULL ability, and for Wrecking Hits on Large Turrets to be turned off for small ships. That was it. GOD look at us now 2 months later and it is starting to make me sick.
Frustrating
Flavius Renatus
(Ancient Roman Military Historian)
Real Power Is Something You Take!!! |
meowcat
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 22:01:00 -
[37]
i've been spending a lot of time back in my tristan recently, and tbh i'm not seeing the instant death i expected from using a 1mn MWD
i'd rather have the 2 neutron blasters, rocket lancher, and nos than a 10mn AB and booger all else tbh |
meowcat
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 22:01:00 -
[38]
i've been spending a lot of time back in my tristan recently, and tbh i'm not seeing the instant death i expected from using a 1mn MWD
i'd rather have the 2 neutron blasters, rocket lancher, and nos than a 10mn AB and booger all else tbh |
Def Antares
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 22:14:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Gariuys
Thread is in patch review.
yes and all posts have been deleted from it
|
Def Antares
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 22:14:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Gariuys
Thread is in patch review.
yes and all posts have been deleted from it
|
Cutter John
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 22:51:00 -
[41]
i see a lot of noise being made over this.. basically everyone wants to keep being able to use oversized ab on your ships because you can now.. lemme ask this.. when mwd didnt have the sig radius increase, did any of you use oversized AB? i highly doubt it. before that, oversized ab's were a curiosity.. something to be fitted with a mining setup, or the poor mans mwd for noobs without the skill.
and yet as soon as the sig radius penalty was introduced to mwd's to give SOME downside to going fast, oversized ab's were looked at and found to be an effective workaround to this penalty. they never intended you to be able to use it in the first place.... the devs either just didnt realize people would even want to or that it could be fitted, or figured the fitting would be enough to render any ship using it impotent, and effectivly harmless. unfortunately they were wrong, and now they have to fix their mistake. in the description a 10mn ab says "cruiser class module" it doesnt say "cruiser and frigate class module".
basically you said heck no! i dont want a massive sig, but i still want to go so fast i cant be touched, and to heck with your game balance.
btw, i would agree with you guys, and ask that this stay in as an unintended design feature, if it werent for missile launchers, which take next to no grid comparatively, so fitting weapons isnt a big issue, 0 cap, and still can hit regardless of your speed. an overdriven crow is a dangerous, and almost untouchable, opponent. for turret ships, yeah.. the grid penalty is plenty.
My Idea Thread
Give Drones Love! |
Cutter John
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 22:51:00 -
[42]
i see a lot of noise being made over this.. basically everyone wants to keep being able to use oversized ab on your ships because you can now.. lemme ask this.. when mwd didnt have the sig radius increase, did any of you use oversized AB? i highly doubt it. before that, oversized ab's were a curiosity.. something to be fitted with a mining setup, or the poor mans mwd for noobs without the skill.
and yet as soon as the sig radius penalty was introduced to mwd's to give SOME downside to going fast, oversized ab's were looked at and found to be an effective workaround to this penalty. they never intended you to be able to use it in the first place.... the devs either just didnt realize people would even want to or that it could be fitted, or figured the fitting would be enough to render any ship using it impotent, and effectivly harmless. unfortunately they were wrong, and now they have to fix their mistake. in the description a 10mn ab says "cruiser class module" it doesnt say "cruiser and frigate class module".
basically you said heck no! i dont want a massive sig, but i still want to go so fast i cant be touched, and to heck with your game balance.
btw, i would agree with you guys, and ask that this stay in as an unintended design feature, if it werent for missile launchers, which take next to no grid comparatively, so fitting weapons isnt a big issue, 0 cap, and still can hit regardless of your speed. an overdriven crow is a dangerous, and almost untouchable, opponent. for turret ships, yeah.. the grid penalty is plenty.
My Idea Thread
Give Drones Love! |
Iece Quaan
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 23:00:00 -
[43]
Except that the sig boost on mwd's dosen't really make them any easier to hit. Using oversize ABs is for people who don't want the cap/shield penalty on their favorite fast-mover.
Don't nerf it. In fact, just stop nerfing ****. You're really starting to **** me off =P
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Iece Quaan
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Posted - 2004.07.28 23:00:00 -
[44]
Except that the sig boost on mwd's dosen't really make them any easier to hit. Using oversize ABs is for people who don't want the cap/shield penalty on their favorite fast-mover.
Don't nerf it. In fact, just stop nerfing ****. You're really starting to **** me off =P
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Def Antares
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Posted - 2004.07.28 23:26:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Cutter John
and yet as soon as the sig radius penalty was introduced to mwd's to give SOME downside to going fast
ah yes and what about -25% shield / cap?
Originally by: Cutter John
they never intended you to be able to use it in the first place....
this is my "favorite" argument
Originally by: Cutter John
in the description a 10mn ab says "cruiser class module" it doesnt say "cruiser and frigate class module".
"Note: Frigate class module" ... this is form the description of a 1MN MWD, still you can fit it on a cruiser.
Originally by: Cutter John
basically you said heck no! i dont want a massive sig, but i still want to go so fast i cant be touched, and to heck with your game balance.
don't blame smart people that find workarounds, get drones, fit one of several modules that are able to stop an Interceptor. Fitting a 10MN AB on an Int does no way make it untouchable. It just makes it less vulnerable to turret and missiles which is only a fraction of possibilities to get them. Speed is the only true defense an Interceptor has, if speed is as deadly as going slow,you are defenseless. So you have to use an alternative option, with has the tradeoff of massive powergrid useage.
where is the game balance if you pay ~10 million or more isk for a ship, maybe fit expensive named or techII equipment to it to get an advantage, get nearly no insurance for it if you loose it, train more than one month for to fly efficiently (easily as much as a BS pilot if you truly spacialise) and yet can't be truly effective because turrets will pwn you when you try to use your only true defense, speed, or missiles will when you dont. you cant just say us Int pilots wanna be untouchable, we just trained lots to use this ship and we want our playstyle to be a fun one to play. not a frustrating one.
Originally by: Cutter John
btw, i would agree with you guys, and ask that this stay in as an unintended design feature, if it werent for missile launchers, which take next to no grid comparatively, so fitting weapons isnt a big issue, 0 cap, and still can hit regardless of your speed. an overdriven crow is a dangerous, and almost untouchable, opponent. for turret ships, yeah.. the grid penalty is plenty.
well i only can fly caldari ints, but since the crusader has 40 basic grid compared to 35 of a crow and one more low slow to put a MAPC into it should not be too much of a problem. maybe the taranis is worse here, and the minmatar ones too. but they would surely shine in other roles but damage dealing. maybe in cathing other Ints? Missiles from the corw could be avoided by them. I also hear the lasers hit good and for good damage too, even at high speeds. And the Taranis is commonly called as the "damage dealer no1" among the Frigates. But this is a different issue completely.
Yes. I want to avoid massive sig radius, and yes I also want to keep my shields and CAP.
And no, I don't want to be untouchable, and surely am not. I am just a bit less vulnerable with the 10MN actually.
And yes, I have trained many skills to fly this ship the way I can fly it now, and yes, if you make the Ints too easy to be shot or make it too hard to do their job this time I have invested would be wasted. And I feel, after I have invested so much isk, playtime and training time into this gameplay I have a right to be competitive and not downgraded to a scout or use my ship for travelling or making bookmarks.
k going to bed now =) I really am looking forward to how this turns out
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Def Antares
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 23:26:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Cutter John
and yet as soon as the sig radius penalty was introduced to mwd's to give SOME downside to going fast
ah yes and what about -25% shield / cap?
Originally by: Cutter John
they never intended you to be able to use it in the first place....
this is my "favorite" argument
Originally by: Cutter John
in the description a 10mn ab says "cruiser class module" it doesnt say "cruiser and frigate class module".
"Note: Frigate class module" ... this is form the description of a 1MN MWD, still you can fit it on a cruiser.
Originally by: Cutter John
basically you said heck no! i dont want a massive sig, but i still want to go so fast i cant be touched, and to heck with your game balance.
don't blame smart people that find workarounds, get drones, fit one of several modules that are able to stop an Interceptor. Fitting a 10MN AB on an Int does no way make it untouchable. It just makes it less vulnerable to turret and missiles which is only a fraction of possibilities to get them. Speed is the only true defense an Interceptor has, if speed is as deadly as going slow,you are defenseless. So you have to use an alternative option, with has the tradeoff of massive powergrid useage.
where is the game balance if you pay ~10 million or more isk for a ship, maybe fit expensive named or techII equipment to it to get an advantage, get nearly no insurance for it if you loose it, train more than one month for to fly efficiently (easily as much as a BS pilot if you truly spacialise) and yet can't be truly effective because turrets will pwn you when you try to use your only true defense, speed, or missiles will when you dont. you cant just say us Int pilots wanna be untouchable, we just trained lots to use this ship and we want our playstyle to be a fun one to play. not a frustrating one.
Originally by: Cutter John
btw, i would agree with you guys, and ask that this stay in as an unintended design feature, if it werent for missile launchers, which take next to no grid comparatively, so fitting weapons isnt a big issue, 0 cap, and still can hit regardless of your speed. an overdriven crow is a dangerous, and almost untouchable, opponent. for turret ships, yeah.. the grid penalty is plenty.
well i only can fly caldari ints, but since the crusader has 40 basic grid compared to 35 of a crow and one more low slow to put a MAPC into it should not be too much of a problem. maybe the taranis is worse here, and the minmatar ones too. but they would surely shine in other roles but damage dealing. maybe in cathing other Ints? Missiles from the corw could be avoided by them. I also hear the lasers hit good and for good damage too, even at high speeds. And the Taranis is commonly called as the "damage dealer no1" among the Frigates. But this is a different issue completely.
Yes. I want to avoid massive sig radius, and yes I also want to keep my shields and CAP.
And no, I don't want to be untouchable, and surely am not. I am just a bit less vulnerable with the 10MN actually.
And yes, I have trained many skills to fly this ship the way I can fly it now, and yes, if you make the Ints too easy to be shot or make it too hard to do their job this time I have invested would be wasted. And I feel, after I have invested so much isk, playtime and training time into this gameplay I have a right to be competitive and not downgraded to a scout or use my ship for travelling or making bookmarks.
k going to bed now =) I really am looking forward to how this turns out
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Tactician
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Posted - 2004.07.28 23:34:00 -
[47]
Agree 100% with 6's
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Tactician
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Posted - 2004.07.28 23:34:00 -
[48]
Agree 100% with 6's
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Cacciatore
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Posted - 2004.07.29 00:54:00 -
[49]
in reply to the original post, frankly I'm impressed 6666. Your post is quite well thought out and presented imho. I wholeheartedly agree with you as well. in order to fit those modules they sacrifice much, and train some skills specifically to be able to fit that one thing.. to disregard their play style would be very ill-advised imho. EA did the same kind of stuff and see where it got them.. (for those who don't know, they lost a LOT of players to this very game, a lot of which will no longer even consider buying EA games in the future because of how they screwed with their games and the people who play them.)
People dream up non-standard ship outfittings and it seems every time they do they get punished.. as if some people want everyone to have the same exact cookkie-cutter ship outfitting. Those who whine about people using non-standard rigs.. get over yourselves.. simply because you lack the thoguht power to dream up a way to counter a setup does not mean you should lobby the DEVs to disallow it entirely.. it's that kind of mindset that ruins games, and even real life.. when one group of people forces another to be more like them it takes away from the whole.. let these people keep their differces, their off-beat setups and configurations.. without people like them.. where would we be as a society and in this game?!
Something is only impossible when you refuse to try
Kills |
Cacciatore
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Posted - 2004.07.29 00:54:00 -
[50]
in reply to the original post, frankly I'm impressed 6666. Your post is quite well thought out and presented imho. I wholeheartedly agree with you as well. in order to fit those modules they sacrifice much, and train some skills specifically to be able to fit that one thing.. to disregard their play style would be very ill-advised imho. EA did the same kind of stuff and see where it got them.. (for those who don't know, they lost a LOT of players to this very game, a lot of which will no longer even consider buying EA games in the future because of how they screwed with their games and the people who play them.)
People dream up non-standard ship outfittings and it seems every time they do they get punished.. as if some people want everyone to have the same exact cookkie-cutter ship outfitting. Those who whine about people using non-standard rigs.. get over yourselves.. simply because you lack the thoguht power to dream up a way to counter a setup does not mean you should lobby the DEVs to disallow it entirely.. it's that kind of mindset that ruins games, and even real life.. when one group of people forces another to be more like them it takes away from the whole.. let these people keep their differces, their off-beat setups and configurations.. without people like them.. where would we be as a society and in this game?!
Something is only impossible when you refuse to try
Kills |
Grut
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Posted - 2004.07.29 01:07:00 -
[51]
Agree completely
Fitting an ab on frigs has considerable costs its not some magic trick to get around sig radius, its an interesting alternative frigates.
On cruisers the situation is abit more severe IMO 100mn abs are the only reason cruisers are currently used in pvp and even then has very high costs.
Mostly harmless |
Grut
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Posted - 2004.07.29 01:07:00 -
[52]
Agree completely
Fitting an ab on frigs has considerable costs its not some magic trick to get around sig radius, its an interesting alternative frigates.
On cruisers the situation is abit more severe IMO 100mn abs are the only reason cruisers are currently used in pvp and even then has very high costs.
Mostly harmless |
Vaco
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Posted - 2004.07.29 01:27:00 -
[53]
It is not only AB and MWD, but I fit a 1600mm plate on some of my cruisers, removing this ability would severly limit what I can do.
As I see it, I am sacraficing a very large portion of my grid to fit this mod. What is wrong with that? It is my style of play, by doing what has been described in this thread is telling me that I have to play by your rules, your the standard loadouts, and be preditable.
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Vaco
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Posted - 2004.07.29 01:27:00 -
[54]
It is not only AB and MWD, but I fit a 1600mm plate on some of my cruisers, removing this ability would severly limit what I can do.
As I see it, I am sacraficing a very large portion of my grid to fit this mod. What is wrong with that? It is my style of play, by doing what has been described in this thread is telling me that I have to play by your rules, your the standard loadouts, and be preditable.
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Shimatu
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Posted - 2004.07.29 02:27:00 -
[55]
people that complain about this sort of thing have (i think) never tried to do it for themselves. to fit a 10MN AB on my inty (the crow or the taranis) i have to use several MAPCs, especially if i want any weapons. this also messes up my defensive capabilities (not enough cap recharge to operate boosters) and my ew capabilities (webber/scrambler use too much cap too) because i no longer have the slots available for PDUs or CPRs. also, 10MN abs take more cap than 1MN MWDs, thats as a proportion of total cap by the way so its not made up for my the extra cap for not using a MWD, so you cant use them indefinately so easily.
it is by NO means the easy way out.
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Shimatu
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Posted - 2004.07.29 02:27:00 -
[56]
people that complain about this sort of thing have (i think) never tried to do it for themselves. to fit a 10MN AB on my inty (the crow or the taranis) i have to use several MAPCs, especially if i want any weapons. this also messes up my defensive capabilities (not enough cap recharge to operate boosters) and my ew capabilities (webber/scrambler use too much cap too) because i no longer have the slots available for PDUs or CPRs. also, 10MN abs take more cap than 1MN MWDs, thats as a proportion of total cap by the way so its not made up for my the extra cap for not using a MWD, so you cant use them indefinately so easily.
it is by NO means the easy way out.
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Morikai Acler
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:05:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Cutter John
i see a lot of noise being made over this.. basically everyone wants to keep being able to use oversized ab on your ships because you can now.. lemme ask this.. when mwd didnt have the sig radius increase, did any of you use oversized AB? i highly doubt it. before that, oversized ab's were a curiosity.. something to be fitted with a mining setup, or the poor mans mwd for noobs without the skill.
and yet as soon as the sig radius penalty was introduced to mwd's to give SOME downside to going fast, oversized ab's were looked at and found to be an effective workaround to this penalty. they never intended you to be able to use it in the first place.... the devs either just didnt realize people would even want to or that it could be fitted, or figured the fitting would be enough to render any ship using it impotent, and effectivly harmless. unfortunately they were wrong, and now they have to fix their mistake. in the description a 10mn ab says "cruiser class module" it doesnt say "cruiser and frigate class module".
basically you said heck no! i dont want a massive sig, but i still want to go so fast i cant be touched, and to heck with your game balance.
btw, i would agree with you guys, and ask that this stay in as an unintended design feature, if it werent for missile launchers, which take next to no grid comparatively, so fitting weapons isnt a big issue, 0 cap, and still can hit regardless of your speed. an overdriven crow is a dangerous, and almost untouchable, opponent. for turret ships, yeah.. the grid penalty is plenty.
*raises hand*
I was using 10mn ab's on my frigates well before the recent MWD sig nerf. Very few frigates can do so and still have any offensive or defensive power. Those few frigates being the tier 2 level 3 frigates, and the interceptors. And I still have the ability to get my butt whooped by any properly fitted frigate or other ships. And yes, like i've said several times before, I went this route because I like caldari ships. And, I don't feel they should be hit twice as hard by the base 25% penalties than everyone else does, let alone the newer sig radius thing.
It takes more skills to use the 10mn ab setups on frigates and 100mn ab on cruisers than it does to do the MWD setup. And you still go slower, and have the time use more power depending on if you're using the tech 1 or 2s. Those setups using larger mods are the absolute pinacle of the ship setup, and aren't easy to get to. Hell, if I try I can fit 2 Assault launchers and 2 rocket launchers onto a kestrel, doesn't leave me much room for anything else but I can do it.
So basically what it seems to have came down to, is the people who don't want to use anything but Battle ships have whined. Since they believe that anything they attack should just be handed right to them. And the Dev's have listened.
So for now I agree completely with 6's.
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Morikai Acler
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:05:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Cutter John
i see a lot of noise being made over this.. basically everyone wants to keep being able to use oversized ab on your ships because you can now.. lemme ask this.. when mwd didnt have the sig radius increase, did any of you use oversized AB? i highly doubt it. before that, oversized ab's were a curiosity.. something to be fitted with a mining setup, or the poor mans mwd for noobs without the skill.
and yet as soon as the sig radius penalty was introduced to mwd's to give SOME downside to going fast, oversized ab's were looked at and found to be an effective workaround to this penalty. they never intended you to be able to use it in the first place.... the devs either just didnt realize people would even want to or that it could be fitted, or figured the fitting would be enough to render any ship using it impotent, and effectivly harmless. unfortunately they were wrong, and now they have to fix their mistake. in the description a 10mn ab says "cruiser class module" it doesnt say "cruiser and frigate class module".
basically you said heck no! i dont want a massive sig, but i still want to go so fast i cant be touched, and to heck with your game balance.
btw, i would agree with you guys, and ask that this stay in as an unintended design feature, if it werent for missile launchers, which take next to no grid comparatively, so fitting weapons isnt a big issue, 0 cap, and still can hit regardless of your speed. an overdriven crow is a dangerous, and almost untouchable, opponent. for turret ships, yeah.. the grid penalty is plenty.
*raises hand*
I was using 10mn ab's on my frigates well before the recent MWD sig nerf. Very few frigates can do so and still have any offensive or defensive power. Those few frigates being the tier 2 level 3 frigates, and the interceptors. And I still have the ability to get my butt whooped by any properly fitted frigate or other ships. And yes, like i've said several times before, I went this route because I like caldari ships. And, I don't feel they should be hit twice as hard by the base 25% penalties than everyone else does, let alone the newer sig radius thing.
It takes more skills to use the 10mn ab setups on frigates and 100mn ab on cruisers than it does to do the MWD setup. And you still go slower, and have the time use more power depending on if you're using the tech 1 or 2s. Those setups using larger mods are the absolute pinacle of the ship setup, and aren't easy to get to. Hell, if I try I can fit 2 Assault launchers and 2 rocket launchers onto a kestrel, doesn't leave me much room for anything else but I can do it.
So basically what it seems to have came down to, is the people who don't want to use anything but Battle ships have whined. Since they believe that anything they attack should just be handed right to them. And the Dev's have listened.
So for now I agree completely with 6's.
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Harry MacDougal
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:51:00 -
[59]
I've only been playing for a month or two, but part of the reason I came to this game in the first place is that you can go so many different ways with it. I love that you can customize a ship to be anything you want, and it seems wrong to me for the devs to remove one of the key aspects of the game. Not only does it take away some very valid options, but it removes a large amount of the fun of the game. If I have to run the same setup as everyone else, there isn't a point to playing, because there's no challege. I'm sure any vet will tell you that half of the battle is figuring out how to load your ship properly to begin with, and yes, this does include using ship mods that don't belong on it.
--------------
Your 720mm Howitzer Artillery I perfectly strikes Guristas Spy, wrecking for 411.2 damage. |
Harry MacDougal
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:51:00 -
[60]
I've only been playing for a month or two, but part of the reason I came to this game in the first place is that you can go so many different ways with it. I love that you can customize a ship to be anything you want, and it seems wrong to me for the devs to remove one of the key aspects of the game. Not only does it take away some very valid options, but it removes a large amount of the fun of the game. If I have to run the same setup as everyone else, there isn't a point to playing, because there's no challege. I'm sure any vet will tell you that half of the battle is figuring out how to load your ship properly to begin with, and yes, this does include using ship mods that don't belong on it.
--------------
Your 720mm Howitzer Artillery I perfectly strikes Guristas Spy, wrecking for 411.2 damage. |
Latex Mistress
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Posted - 2004.07.29 10:43:00 -
[61]
I'll post on every topic like this that comes up (and there has been a few): Nerfing this is just dumb
Everyone that has a clue has already hit the nail on the head - there is no ship that you can mount a larger-sized AB on without completely rearranging the load-out. That means your defensive/offensive capabilities are stunted. A self-inflicted nerfing.
To the "it's not made to be that way" crowd: whatever. 
A BS can fit every class module/weapon in the game without penalty, so quitcher b*tching.
Pidgeon-holing every pilot into canned configurations is not only stupid, but boring. Part of what makes the game interesting is the fact that there is room left for creativity and ingenuity! That is being killed off slowly with every passing patch, and it's a real shame.
And for the last stinking time: QUIT TRYING TO MAKE REFERENCES TO RL - THIS IS A GAME, NOT A SIMULATOR!!!
If ECM is an act of aggression, why am I not on kill mails?
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Latex Mistress
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Posted - 2004.07.29 10:43:00 -
[62]
I'll post on every topic like this that comes up (and there has been a few): Nerfing this is just dumb
Everyone that has a clue has already hit the nail on the head - there is no ship that you can mount a larger-sized AB on without completely rearranging the load-out. That means your defensive/offensive capabilities are stunted. A self-inflicted nerfing.
To the "it's not made to be that way" crowd: whatever.
A BS can fit every class module/weapon in the game without penalty, so quitcher b*tching.
Pidgeon-holing every pilot into canned configurations is not only stupid, but boring. Part of what makes the game interesting is the fact that there is room left for creativity and ingenuity! That is being killed off slowly with every passing patch, and it's a real shame.
And for the last stinking time: QUIT TRYING TO MAKE REFERENCES TO RL - THIS IS A GAME, NOT A SIMULATOR!!!
If ECM is an act of aggression, why am I not on kill mails?
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6666
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Posted - 2004.07.29 12:14:00 -
[63]
agreed... this is a game and my comparison to a real life situation was simply an means to get my point over in clear and simple terms.
Above all i just hope CCP listen to the concerns of the paying customer.it would be a real real shame if folk become so fed up and simply take their custom elsewhere.
Eve is a great concept and a great game... but I for one would have to seriously consider whether my hard earned money is better spent elsewhere....at the moment the payment/fun ratio is fairly good.but take all these options away and i feel it simply would not be the case.
Not an idle threat just a plain and simple fact
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6666
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Posted - 2004.07.29 12:14:00 -
[64]
agreed... this is a game and my comparison to a real life situation was simply an means to get my point over in clear and simple terms.
Above all i just hope CCP listen to the concerns of the paying customer.it would be a real real shame if folk become so fed up and simply take their custom elsewhere.
Eve is a great concept and a great game... but I for one would have to seriously consider whether my hard earned money is better spent elsewhere....at the moment the payment/fun ratio is fairly good.but take all these options away and i feel it simply would not be the case.
Not an idle threat just a plain and simple fact
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Cuthrid
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Posted - 2004.07.29 12:45:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Cuthrid on 29/07/2004 12:47:34
jeez people heres a good example for u all to ponder and see the reasoning us "carebears" are using
You have a Truck and a Car - The Truck CAN fit the Cars engine without much trouble, it just wont move as well - where as the Car is gonna have to be HEAVILY modified to fit a truck Engine and even then may tear itself apart
this applies all modules in eve that are class dependant be it guns or AB's
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Cuthrid
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Posted - 2004.07.29 12:45:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Cuthrid on 29/07/2004 12:47:34
jeez people heres a good example for u all to ponder and see the reasoning us "carebears" are using
You have a Truck and a Car - The Truck CAN fit the Cars engine without much trouble, it just wont move as well - where as the Car is gonna have to be HEAVILY modified to fit a truck Engine and even then may tear itself apart
this applies all modules in eve that are class dependant be it guns or AB's
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Def Antares
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Posted - 2004.07.29 12:59:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Def Antares on 29/07/2004 13:00:42
Originally by: Cuthrid
Edited by: Cuthrid on 29/07/2004 12:47:34
jeez people heres a good example for u all to ponder and see the reasoning us "carebears" are using
You have a Truck and a Car - The Truck CAN fit the Cars engine without much trouble, it just wont move as well - where as the Car is gonna have to be HEAVILY modified to fit a truck Engine and even then may tear itself apart
this applies all modules in eve that are class dependant be it guns or AB's
how ridiculous those comparisons to real life are. if you want to base your argumentation on such examples, i ask you:
1.) why does my ship become slower when i turn off the engines? in space i, as to the current scientific knowledge, i could accellerate until i reach nearly light speed.
2.) why don't you see any modules on your ship when you fit them? maybe they are so small that you cant see them really, this would explain that it is possible to fit larger mods on smaller ships.
3.) why can the "camera drone", the carebear-roleplayesque excuse for not having a*****pit, move faster than anything else in eve (zoom out to max and rotate the camera). i really want a microcameradronedrive please. it also seems to have no problem to align it's target to the screens center. i want a camera drone turret too please.
4.) why do turrets fire through objects? balance? server load? it sure is not realistic,
5.) why do armor repairers repair a ship in a minute, while it takes a few hours to build one? again the realism vs balance thing.
6.) why do missiles go faster than any projectile currently on earth? maybe here also the realism got purged for balance.
7.) why does my ship, when it aligns for warp turn so fast i must honestly get sick, in the first moments, but then still takes an eternity to warp away. maybe it's for the shipagility-timer to go to zero, so the server thinks it's ok to warp now.
this list can be continued, as you surely will admit ...
PLEASE no more pseudo scientific, star-trek knowlede or real-life comparison arguments, they are just silly
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Def Antares
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Posted - 2004.07.29 12:59:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Def Antares on 29/07/2004 13:00:42
Originally by: Cuthrid
Edited by: Cuthrid on 29/07/2004 12:47:34
jeez people heres a good example for u all to ponder and see the reasoning us "carebears" are using
You have a Truck and a Car - The Truck CAN fit the Cars engine without much trouble, it just wont move as well - where as the Car is gonna have to be HEAVILY modified to fit a truck Engine and even then may tear itself apart
this applies all modules in eve that are class dependant be it guns or AB's
how ridiculous those comparisons to real life are. if you want to base your argumentation on such examples, i ask you:
1.) why does my ship become slower when i turn off the engines? in space i, as to the current scientific knowledge, i could accellerate until i reach nearly light speed.
2.) why don't you see any modules on your ship when you fit them? maybe they are so small that you cant see them really, this would explain that it is possible to fit larger mods on smaller ships.
3.) why can the "camera drone", the carebear-roleplayesque excuse for not having a*****pit, move faster than anything else in eve (zoom out to max and rotate the camera). i really want a microcameradronedrive please. it also seems to have no problem to align it's target to the screens center. i want a camera drone turret too please.
4.) why do turrets fire through objects? balance? server load? it sure is not realistic,
5.) why do armor repairers repair a ship in a minute, while it takes a few hours to build one? again the realism vs balance thing.
6.) why do missiles go faster than any projectile currently on earth? maybe here also the realism got purged for balance.
7.) why does my ship, when it aligns for warp turn so fast i must honestly get sick, in the first moments, but then still takes an eternity to warp away. maybe it's for the shipagility-timer to go to zero, so the server thinks it's ok to warp now.
this list can be continued, as you surely will admit ...
PLEASE no more pseudo scientific, star-trek knowlede or real-life comparison arguments, they are just silly
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6666
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Posted - 2004.07.29 13:04:00 -
[69]
hey DEF can i compare you to my real life teddy bear?..kinda cute but deep deep down you want to punch the little git
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6666
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Posted - 2004.07.29 13:04:00 -
[70]
hey DEF can i compare you to my real life teddy bear?..kinda cute but deep deep down you want to punch the little git
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Def Antares
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Posted - 2004.07.29 13:19:00 -
[71]
Originally by: 6666
hey DEF can i compare you to my real life teddy bear?..kinda cute but deep deep down you want to punch the little git
real live punching only mondays to wednesdays 0900 to 1400 ;-)
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Def Antares
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Posted - 2004.07.29 13:19:00 -
[72]
Originally by: 6666
hey DEF can i compare you to my real life teddy bear?..kinda cute but deep deep down you want to punch the little git
real live punching only mondays to wednesdays 0900 to 1400 ;-)
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Cuthrid
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Posted - 2004.07.29 14:19:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Cuthrid on 29/07/2004 14:21:26
well whatever you say Cruiser modules should go on cruiser and above
the real beef here is the fact that AB's are totally useless - if Overclassed AB's are removed as i hope they are then AB's have to recieve some bonuses - they should at LEAST be 100% bouns tho id think 150% would work better
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Cuthrid
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Posted - 2004.07.29 14:19:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Cuthrid on 29/07/2004 14:21:26
well whatever you say Cruiser modules should go on cruiser and above
the real beef here is the fact that AB's are totally useless - if Overclassed AB's are removed as i hope they are then AB's have to recieve some bonuses - they should at LEAST be 100% bouns tho id think 150% would work better
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.29 14:22:00 -
[75]
The missile changes are going to increase frigates survivability vs missiles, the drone changes are also giving you more survivability vs drones, and a battleship fitted with only large turrets will struggle to hit you unless you're at range flying in a straight line.
Frigates will only have to worry if they get webbed/cap drained/or the BS pilot has small guns to tear you up.
That's a LOT of sacrifice on the BS pilots behalf in order to counter frigates.
All in all, the changes ahead mean you can't also have the bonus of fitting 10MN AB's.
Same goes for cruisers - missiles aren't gonna decimate a cruiser as much as they do, cruisers are getting new useful bonuses, cruisers don't have to worry so much about drones, and cruisers can fight effectively beyond webify/warp-jam range.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.29 14:22:00 -
[76]
The missile changes are going to increase frigates survivability vs missiles, the drone changes are also giving you more survivability vs drones, and a battleship fitted with only large turrets will struggle to hit you unless you're at range flying in a straight line.
Frigates will only have to worry if they get webbed/cap drained/or the BS pilot has small guns to tear you up.
That's a LOT of sacrifice on the BS pilots behalf in order to counter frigates.
All in all, the changes ahead mean you can't also have the bonus of fitting 10MN AB's.
Same goes for cruisers - missiles aren't gonna decimate a cruiser as much as they do, cruisers are getting new useful bonuses, cruisers don't have to worry so much about drones, and cruisers can fight effectively beyond webify/warp-jam range.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.29 14:25:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Iece Quaan
Except that the sig boost on mwd's dosen't really make them any easier to hit. Using oversize ABs is for people who don't want the cap/shield penalty on their favorite fast-mover.
Excellent point - many people are under the impression MWD makes you eaier to hit
What they fail to realise is the increased speed cancels out completely any increased chance of being hit by a turret.
Only stupid frigate pilots who don't maneuvre properly die due to MWD usage.
Using an oversize module to avoid the 25% shield/cap penalty probably means you need to train engineering skills a bit more because nerfing your frigates remaining fitting chances just to get that shield/cap back is a pretty stupid idea.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.29 14:25:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Iece Quaan
Except that the sig boost on mwd's dosen't really make them any easier to hit. Using oversize ABs is for people who don't want the cap/shield penalty on their favorite fast-mover.
Excellent point - many people are under the impression MWD makes you eaier to hit
What they fail to realise is the increased speed cancels out completely any increased chance of being hit by a turret.
Only stupid frigate pilots who don't maneuvre properly die due to MWD usage.
Using an oversize module to avoid the 25% shield/cap penalty probably means you need to train engineering skills a bit more because nerfing your frigates remaining fitting chances just to get that shield/cap back is a pretty stupid idea.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Shimatu
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Posted - 2004.07.29 14:55:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
All in all, the changes ahead mean you can't also have the bonus of fitting 10MN AB's.
thing is though, as you mention in your next post, fitting 10MN AB's isnt a 'bonus' its just an option. its different to using a MWD, but in some ways its worse some ways its better. and thats why i think its good to be alllowed to use them.
the same way i think you should be able to fit BS guns onto cruisers if you can only find a way. sure, itd only be the one gun... but maybe some people would want the extra firepower and range at the expense of all other equipment. i wouldnt, but some people might.
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Shimatu
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Posted - 2004.07.29 14:55:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
All in all, the changes ahead mean you can't also have the bonus of fitting 10MN AB's.
thing is though, as you mention in your next post, fitting 10MN AB's isnt a 'bonus' its just an option. its different to using a MWD, but in some ways its worse some ways its better. and thats why i think its good to be alllowed to use them.
the same way i think you should be able to fit BS guns onto cruisers if you can only find a way. sure, itd only be the one gun... but maybe some people would want the extra firepower and range at the expense of all other equipment. i wouldnt, but some people might.
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Def Antares
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Posted - 2004.07.29 15:19:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Excellent point - many people are under the impression MWD makes you eaier to hit
you ARE way easier to be hit if the ship shooting at you is a bit off. it's not always 1 vs 1. in fact you take so much you can only hope you warp in time, or it's another Int gone.
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Def Antares
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Posted - 2004.07.29 15:19:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Excellent point - many people are under the impression MWD makes you eaier to hit
you ARE way easier to be hit if the ship shooting at you is a bit off. it's not always 1 vs 1. in fact you take so much you can only hope you warp in time, or it's another Int gone.
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Tar om
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Posted - 2004.07.29 15:24:00 -
[83]
I just can't see any reason to remove the ability to fit modules on smaller ships. You can fit frigate guns on a BS to counter frigates, albeit at a cost in reduced firepower and you should continue to be able to fit cruiser ABs on a frigate (again, at the cost of firepower).
The current situation is not unbalanced, is not broken and does not need fixing. It might offend some purists from "game design" but it sure makes the game a lot of fun to play.
Incidently, if the change goes ahead I'll be tossing my Rupture into the same skip as my Tempest and ninja mining crok in my Probe. You're not about to nerf the probe as well are you?
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
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Posted - 2004.07.29 15:24:00 -
[84]
I just can't see any reason to remove the ability to fit modules on smaller ships. You can fit frigate guns on a BS to counter frigates, albeit at a cost in reduced firepower and you should continue to be able to fit cruiser ABs on a frigate (again, at the cost of firepower).
The current situation is not unbalanced, is not broken and does not need fixing. It might offend some purists from "game design" but it sure makes the game a lot of fun to play.
Incidently, if the change goes ahead I'll be tossing my Rupture into the same skip as my Tempest and ninja mining crok in my Probe. You're not about to nerf the probe as well are you?
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
6666
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Posted - 2004.07.29 16:23:00 -
[85]
Agreed....FUN is the operative word here.
Anyway ive said my piece and made my feelings clear.its all in the hands of the CCP gurus now..i pray this change is not implemented for the good of the game and player enjoyment as a whole.
If it is then at least some of us can say we tried!
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6666
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Posted - 2004.07.29 16:23:00 -
[86]
Agreed....FUN is the operative word here.
Anyway ive said my piece and made my feelings clear.its all in the hands of the CCP gurus now..i pray this change is not implemented for the good of the game and player enjoyment as a whole.
If it is then at least some of us can say we tried!
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.29 16:27:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Def Antares
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Excellent point - many people are under the impression MWD makes you eaier to hit
you ARE way easier to be hit if the ship shooting at you is a bit off. it's not always 1 vs 1. in fact you take so much you can only hope you warp in time, or it's another Int gone.
The same can be said if you use a 10MN AB or normal impulse speed.
What was your point?
Any frigate approaching in a straight line deserves to be shot.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.29 16:27:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Def Antares
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Excellent point - many people are under the impression MWD makes you eaier to hit
you ARE way easier to be hit if the ship shooting at you is a bit off. it's not always 1 vs 1. in fact you take so much you can only hope you warp in time, or it's another Int gone.
The same can be said if you use a 10MN AB or normal impulse speed.
What was your point?
Any frigate approaching in a straight line deserves to be shot.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Def Antares
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Posted - 2004.07.29 16:59:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Originally by: Def Antares
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Excellent point - many people are under the impression MWD makes you eaier to hit
you ARE way easier to be hit if the ship shooting at you is a bit off. it's not always 1 vs 1. in fact you take so much you can only hope you warp in time, or it's another Int gone.
The same can be said if you use a 10MN AB or normal impulse speed.
What was your point?
Any frigate approaching in a straight line deserves to be shot.
you refuse to understand, right? you don't want to admit that i have a point here, that's why you try your best to misunderstand me. at last i hope for you it is intentional lol. why do you think i have written it's not always 1 vs 1?
if you orbit your target in an interceptor, you don't approach it, in fact you dont approach anything, but you will be an easy target to a second ship shooting at you, espeacially with an increased signature.
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Def Antares
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Posted - 2004.07.29 16:59:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Originally by: Def Antares
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Excellent point - many people are under the impression MWD makes you eaier to hit
you ARE way easier to be hit if the ship shooting at you is a bit off. it's not always 1 vs 1. in fact you take so much you can only hope you warp in time, or it's another Int gone.
The same can be said if you use a 10MN AB or normal impulse speed.
What was your point?
Any frigate approaching in a straight line deserves to be shot.
you refuse to understand, right? you don't want to admit that i have a point here, that's why you try your best to misunderstand me. at last i hope for you it is intentional lol. why do you think i have written it's not always 1 vs 1?
if you orbit your target in an interceptor, you don't approach it, in fact you dont approach anything, but you will be an easy target to a second ship shooting at you, espeacially with an increased signature.
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Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2004.07.29 17:01:00 -
[91]
The problem as I see it is that everyone thinks that speed is your life!
This is true for the current TQ version BUT
other changes are coming like drones with accuracy so they cant hit small targets with speeds of 2km/s +
even more missile changes are coming ... pokes TomB 
Large missiles will do way less dmg vs smaller targets so in the end we wont need that much speed anymore!!! so far speed modules were a "NO BRAINER" for frigs ...
... it was like fit as many speed modules as possible
so tbh I dont see the fun part in here if everyone in a frig mounts as many speed modules as possible ...
... it will be way more fun cuz now we will actually see small shield boosters and similar modules on frigs again.
But if you leave oversized AB's available you simply screw the WHOLE BALANCE changes coming soonÖ
Greetings Grim |
Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2004.07.29 17:01:00 -
[92]
The problem as I see it is that everyone thinks that speed is your life!
This is true for the current TQ version BUT
other changes are coming like drones with accuracy so they cant hit small targets with speeds of 2km/s +
even more missile changes are coming ... pokes TomB
Large missiles will do way less dmg vs smaller targets so in the end we wont need that much speed anymore!!! so far speed modules were a "NO BRAINER" for frigs ...
... it was like fit as many speed modules as possible
so tbh I dont see the fun part in here if everyone in a frig mounts as many speed modules as possible ...
... it will be way more fun cuz now we will actually see small shield boosters and similar modules on frigs again.
But if you leave oversized AB's available you simply screw the WHOLE BALANCE changes coming soonÖ
Greetings Grim |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.29 17:07:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 29/07/2004 17:10:52
Quote:
if you orbit your target in an interceptor, you don't approach it, in fact you dont approach anything, but you will be an easy target to a second ship shooting at you, espeacially with an increased signature.
Why is that a problem?
That's why the penalty is there in the first place.
Are you saying a frigate should be invulnerable to this second target or what?
Those're the risks you take for flying a ship that is machenically weak.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.29 17:07:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 29/07/2004 17:10:52
Quote:
if you orbit your target in an interceptor, you don't approach it, in fact you dont approach anything, but you will be an easy target to a second ship shooting at you, espeacially with an increased signature.
Why is that a problem?
That's why the penalty is there in the first place.
Are you saying a frigate should be invulnerable to this second target or what?
Those're the risks you take for flying a ship that is machenically weak.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Def Antares
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Posted - 2004.07.29 17:09:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Grim Vandal
But if you leave oversized AB's available you simply screw the WHOLE BALANCE changes coming soonÖ
well unforunately i ph34r too much changes at once, recent patches made me do so :-(
if survivability of int's remains, the one way or the other, and if verstatility will be even improved, as you mentiond, using older now useless modules like small shield boosters i will happily agree to any change.
unfortunately my character on chaos wasnt updated in a loooooong time and cant use half of the stuff i tend to use in TQ there, there are only 20 ppl on at max and therefor no real balancing can be done.
to sad, they really should give TQ more users and the option to set skills as you wish. like on the UO test center ....
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Def Antares
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Posted - 2004.07.29 17:09:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Grim Vandal
But if you leave oversized AB's available you simply screw the WHOLE BALANCE changes coming soonÖ
well unforunately i ph34r too much changes at once, recent patches made me do so :-(
if survivability of int's remains, the one way or the other, and if verstatility will be even improved, as you mentiond, using older now useless modules like small shield boosters i will happily agree to any change.
unfortunately my character on chaos wasnt updated in a loooooong time and cant use half of the stuff i tend to use in TQ there, there are only 20 ppl on at max and therefor no real balancing can be done.
to sad, they really should give TQ more users and the option to set skills as you wish. like on the UO test center ....
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Jet Max
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Posted - 2004.07.29 17:48:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Ramiel Var
I think its funny that people think its okay to put frig and cruiser guns on your BS, but its not okay to put cruiser mods on your frig....irony in its purest form.
-RAM
Someone quoted above post,but i doing it again! cos thats what Ramiel wrote its absoluteley right! Devs should feel gobsmacked by this Ramiels post! shame on you CCP! Forcing BS's to use frigate sized guns to take out frigs by nerfing tracking but frigates has been nerfed not to have weapons to make good damage against BS's! well done!!
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Jet Max
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Posted - 2004.07.29 17:48:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Ramiel Var
I think its funny that people think its okay to put frig and cruiser guns on your BS, but its not okay to put cruiser mods on your frig....irony in its purest form.
-RAM
Someone quoted above post,but i doing it again! cos thats what Ramiel wrote its absoluteley right! Devs should feel gobsmacked by this Ramiels post! shame on you CCP! Forcing BS's to use frigate sized guns to take out frigs by nerfing tracking but frigates has been nerfed not to have weapons to make good damage against BS's! well done!!
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Torment
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Posted - 2004.07.29 18:56:00 -
[99]
Joshua even though your right there is no ponit arguing with them mate,this thread was for people who are mostly scared to lose a bs but still want to fly an frig an gank bs's.
I know how hard it is to hit a frig with a mwd orbiting at 10k even with small guns and so do others even though they wont admit it,But they want the best of both worlds and dont believe they should be hit at all while doing 2k.
Tomb has taken the post down anyway so it looks like they got there way....sad
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Torment
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Posted - 2004.07.29 18:56:00 -
[100]
Joshua even though your right there is no ponit arguing with them mate,this thread was for people who are mostly scared to lose a bs but still want to fly an frig an gank bs's.
I know how hard it is to hit a frig with a mwd orbiting at 10k even with small guns and so do others even though they wont admit it,But they want the best of both worlds and dont believe they should be hit at all while doing 2k.
Tomb has taken the post down anyway so it looks like they got there way....sad
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Balthial Ashaere
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Posted - 2004.07.29 20:53:00 -
[101]
I may want to pod the little punk for making me lose an Indy full of Hemorphite, but he does have a point. Preventing oversized afterburner use is pretty stupid, as it fills the middle ground in terms of speed, and it's self balanced as it is. You try doing anything besides travel with one of those on...bloody hard...
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"Convergent Corporation - Infinite Opportunities; One Future!"
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"Convergent Mining Division - Refining The Foundation Of The Future!"
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Balthial Ashaere
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Posted - 2004.07.29 20:53:00 -
[102]
I may want to pod the little punk for making me lose an Indy full of Hemorphite, but he does have a point. Preventing oversized afterburner use is pretty stupid, as it fills the middle ground in terms of speed, and it's self balanced as it is. You try doing anything besides travel with one of those on...bloody hard...
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"Convergent Corporation - Infinite Opportunities; One Future!"
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"Convergent Mining Division - Refining The Foundation Of The Future!"
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6666
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Posted - 2004.07.29 21:15:00 -
[103]
Twas not me officer..the big boy made me do it.
But glad you agree mr
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6666
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Posted - 2004.07.29 21:15:00 -
[104]
Twas not me officer..the big boy made me do it.
But glad you agree mr
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Balthial Ashaere
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Posted - 2004.07.29 21:17:00 -
[105]
Lol! Sure, sure; tell it to the judge.
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"Convergent Corporation - Infinite Opportunities; One Future!"
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"Convergent Mining Division - Refining The Foundation Of The Future!"
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Balthial Ashaere
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Posted - 2004.07.29 21:17:00 -
[106]
Lol! Sure, sure; tell it to the judge.
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"Convergent Corporation - Infinite Opportunities; One Future!"
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"Convergent Mining Division - Refining The Foundation Of The Future!"
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.29 21:17:00 -
[107]
Torment:
ding ding 
round 2.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.07.29 21:17:00 -
[108]
Torment:
ding ding
round 2.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Cobracure
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Posted - 2004.07.29 22:08:00 -
[109]
I hope to god CCP dont change the current ability to fit oversized AB to frigates.
I am a fairly new player and I had to train for aaaages to get a MWD.
Please remember the newer players who want to go a bit faster for those long boring starter courier missions.
Also for those saying the specification such as "Frigate Class Module" and "Cruiser Class module"
What are you supposed to fit on your Industrial Ship then? It is neither type of ship. Nothing? Hah.
CCP - please dont try and fix what is not broken.
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Cobracure
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Posted - 2004.07.29 22:08:00 -
[110]
I hope to god CCP dont change the current ability to fit oversized AB to frigates.
I am a fairly new player and I had to train for aaaages to get a MWD.
Please remember the newer players who want to go a bit faster for those long boring starter courier missions.
Also for those saying the specification such as "Frigate Class Module" and "Cruiser Class module"
What are you supposed to fit on your Industrial Ship then? It is neither type of ship. Nothing? Hah.
CCP - please dont try and fix what is not broken.
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