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Maric	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:23:00 - [31] Originally by: Gomatong Indies should be able to manufacture consumables like Ammo or Drones at reduced ME levels, provide limited deep-space fitting / repair facilities, operate salvage drones etc. This would make the indy a very desirable ship. Give them 2 more high slots and a little more PG for some limtied defences. At last!! Someone with a vision!!
Maric	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:23:00 - [32] Originally by: Gomatong Indies should be able to manufacture consumables like Ammo or Drones at reduced ME levels, provide limited deep-space fitting / repair facilities, operate salvage drones etc. This would make the indy a very desirable ship. Give them 2 more high slots and a little more PG for some limtied defences. At last!! Someone with a vision!!
SKiNNiEH	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:25:00 - [33] I think haulers should be more like the npc haulers you can find in 0.0 mining ops. They have the armor of a battleship, but arent shooting back. So this is what i think a hauler should become in this game: - Lots more armor, that resembles the armor hp of battleships - No turrethardpoints, but keep the highslots as is. This way, it isnt a pod with cargospace (vulnerability-wise). It can withstand some beating, but once webbed/scrambled it'll still die. Why no turrethardpoints? Having one gun on it is useless and imo, using a hauler for (ninja) mining is just wrong :) -------
SKiNNiEH	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:25:00 - [34] I think haulers should be more like the npc haulers you can find in 0.0 mining ops. They have the armor of a battleship, but arent shooting back. So this is what i think a hauler should become in this game: - Lots more armor, that resembles the armor hp of battleships - No turrethardpoints, but keep the highslots as is. This way, it isnt a pod with cargospace (vulnerability-wise). It can withstand some beating, but once webbed/scrambled it'll still die. Why no turrethardpoints? Having one gun on it is useless and imo, using a hauler for (ninja) mining is just wrong :) -------
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:36:00 - [35] WHere did all you indy lovers crawl from all of a sudden ? Indies producing stuff, having space for frigs to dock ??? hello !! waves you wanna come over to the real eve now ? Titans will be able to act as dock, pos will be able to produce. Why a cargo vessel would ever be expected to produce anything is, well, kinda beyond me ? And dont come quoting me their name as excuse. It's not like you guys use your battleship for battle is it ? _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:36:00 - [36] WHere did all you indy lovers crawl from all of a sudden ? Indies producing stuff, having space for frigs to dock ??? hello !! waves you wanna come over to the real eve now ? Titans will be able to act as dock, pos will be able to produce. Why a cargo vessel would ever be expected to produce anything is, well, kinda beyond me ? And dont come quoting me their name as excuse. It's not like you guys use your battleship for battle is it ? _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
chillx	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:39:00 - [37] The only thing I would change is make them able to MWD. It seems insane that every other class of ship in EVE has this option but the shipbuilders deemed that moving large amounts of stuff wouldn't be something that people would like a speed boost for. Time is money when you haul. It would change game mechanics that much. It's not as if you're going to run a 0.0 gate camp in a MWD indy. Everyone uses instas for that. A MWD frigate / cruiser / BS would be able to catch the indy if it tried to run. It would take the tedium out of ferrying large amounts of low grade ore about the place.
chillx	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:39:00 - [38] The only thing I would change is make them able to MWD. It seems insane that every other class of ship in EVE has this option but the shipbuilders deemed that moving large amounts of stuff wouldn't be something that people would like a speed boost for. Time is money when you haul. It would change game mechanics that much. It's not as if you're going to run a 0.0 gate camp in a MWD indy. Everyone uses instas for that. A MWD frigate / cruiser / BS would be able to catch the indy if it tried to run. It would take the tedium out of ferrying large amounts of low grade ore about the place.
Maric	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:49:00 - [39] Originally by: Rod Blaine having space for frigs to dock ??? Who said that? It is stupid, I agree. Not to mention that no indy can haul a frig. Shuttle may be but there is no need for something like that. Originally by: Rod Blaine Why a cargo vessel would ever be expected to produce anything is, well, kinda beyond me ? Becouse it can be done, becouse it will add interesting way to play game, becouse not all players will be in position to own POS. Need more?
Maric	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:49:00 - [40] Originally by: Rod Blaine having space for frigs to dock ??? Who said that? It is stupid, I agree. Not to mention that no indy can haul a frig. Shuttle may be but there is no need for something like that. Originally by: Rod Blaine Why a cargo vessel would ever be expected to produce anything is, well, kinda beyond me ? Becouse it can be done, becouse it will add interesting way to play game, becouse not all players will be in position to own POS. Need more?
Verbal Kint	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:50:00 - [41] Well I see the indie class as pure small haulers, no fancy stuff here. If they need to 'tune' the different races more to level them. I would hope they tune other things than capacity to make up for the cargo diff. Minnie gets a slight speedboost etc. So we get a broader line of choices, so if you want cargo room you might fly Iteron's, speed Minnie. Blokade running then the Badger has an ace up the sleeve and so on. Industrial wise i would love to see a new Class of ships, more specified. Kinda like with the Frigs and advanced Frigs. Some able to build, some refine etc. And offcourse the monstertruck hauler class =) And with the universe as we see it this past year, an armored transport of some kind would have been developed. Somewhere in between the Cruiser and Indie i would say. someone would have build it after being ganked a couple of times. V.K Verbal Kint - Grumpy ol' c0ot.
Verbal Kint	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:50:00 - [42] Well I see the indie class as pure small haulers, no fancy stuff here. If they need to 'tune' the different races more to level them. I would hope they tune other things than capacity to make up for the cargo diff. Minnie gets a slight speedboost etc. So we get a broader line of choices, so if you want cargo room you might fly Iteron's, speed Minnie. Blokade running then the Badger has an ace up the sleeve and so on. Industrial wise i would love to see a new Class of ships, more specified. Kinda like with the Frigs and advanced Frigs. Some able to build, some refine etc. And offcourse the monstertruck hauler class =) And with the universe as we see it this past year, an armored transport of some kind would have been developed. Somewhere in between the Cruiser and Indie i would say. someone would have build it after being ganked a couple of times. V.K Verbal Kint - Grumpy ol' c0ot.
Maric	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:52:00 - [43] Originally by: chillx The only thing I would change is make them able to MWD. Buy Iteron V or Mammoth, get Engineering lvl5, put some micro aux power and rcu and You will be able to fit 10mn MWD.
Maric	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:52:00 - [44] Originally by: chillx The only thing I would change is make them able to MWD. Buy Iteron V or Mammoth, get Engineering lvl5, put some micro aux power and rcu and You will be able to fit 10mn MWD.
Galk	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:59:00 - [45] Indy craft can mwd, it just costs you space for using it... Like eveything you trade it off, i like that balance... Bugs me when i see people calling for an absolute one way or the other, no hauler should be able to carry full expanders while mwd'ing about the place, on the other hand, every indy should be able to fit one.... Not sitting on the fence, more i just like that balance... Problem with that... well jump in a frig and spend an hour creating instas...... ------------------------ ---- Little wonder why people were, what this person was telling my friends: http://galk.50megs.com/logs/
Galk	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:59:00 - [46] Indy craft can mwd, it just costs you space for using it... Like eveything you trade it off, i like that balance... Bugs me when i see people calling for an absolute one way or the other, no hauler should be able to carry full expanders while mwd'ing about the place, on the other hand, every indy should be able to fit one.... Not sitting on the fence, more i just like that balance... Problem with that... well jump in a frig and spend an hour creating instas...... ------------------------ ---- Little wonder why people were, what this person was telling my friends: http://galk.50megs.com/logs/
chillx	Posted - 2004.07.29 11:02:00 - [47] I've just finished Engineering V. Time to get my Mammoth out of mothballs.
chillx	Posted - 2004.07.29 11:02:00 - [48] I've just finished Engineering V. Time to get my Mammoth out of mothballs.
Maric	Posted - 2004.07.29 12:10:00 - [49] Originally by: chillx I've just finished Engineering V. Time to get my Mammoth out of mothballs. Good job Downside of this fitting is large consumation of cap . After a few days I change back my Mammoth to nanofibers and AB. Why? Often I have to jump 10+. It is dull to stay just to click AB or MWD when warp out, therefore I propose some new speed mod med slot modules or modifing existig one from low to med slots (forgot name, it have cargo penalty).
Maric	Posted - 2004.07.29 12:10:00 - [50] Originally by: chillx I've just finished Engineering V. Time to get my Mammoth out of mothballs. Good job Downside of this fitting is large consumation of cap . After a few days I change back my Mammoth to nanofibers and AB. Why? Often I have to jump 10+. It is dull to stay just to click AB or MWD when warp out, therefore I propose some new speed mod med slot modules or modifing existig one from low to med slots (forgot name, it have cargo penalty).
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.07.29 14:27:00 - [51] Originally by: Maric Downside of this fitting is large consumation of cap . After a few days I change back my Mammoth to nanofibers and AB. Why? Often I have to jump 10+. It is dull to stay just to click AB or MWD when warp out, therefore I propose some new speed mod med slot modules or modifing existig one from low to med slots (forgot name, it have cargo penalty). Just put cap rechargers in your med slots and you are good to go with an MWD on a Mammoth/Mk-V. This assumes of course you don't need the med slots for defensive modules but then if you did you probably shouldn't be fitting for an MWD anyway (stabs in low instead of all those RCUs). I've been meaning to see if RCU-IIs allow indies below a Mammoth/Mk-V to fit MWDs. Anyone know if with RCU-IIs you can squeeze an MWD on a Mk-IV or Bestower? As for those who think other indies should be buffed to come closer to equaling a Mk-V I say no way. In fact, if anything I think the Mk-V should be even better than it is to reflect its training needs. It takes 30 days to train the thing...it ought to have noticeably better stats and as it is the Mammoth isn't too far off for a fraction of the training time. There are some neat ideas here to make indies more useful. A heavily armored indie would be great as an option. For balance it would give up cargo/speed. Another thing I think would be fun would be an EVE version of the AC-130H/U Spectre Gunship. Basically a cargo carrier that has given up its cargo to carry extremely heavy firepower. In EVE such a ship would be an industrial based ship (i.e. slow, low shields/armor) but would sport many guns. Be fun to lure in ganking frigs only for them to learn the hard way that this particular hauler has teeth.
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.07.29 14:27:00 - [52] Originally by: Maric Downside of this fitting is large consumation of cap . After a few days I change back my Mammoth to nanofibers and AB. Why? Often I have to jump 10+. It is dull to stay just to click AB or MWD when warp out, therefore I propose some new speed mod med slot modules or modifing existig one from low to med slots (forgot name, it have cargo penalty). Just put cap rechargers in your med slots and you are good to go with an MWD on a Mammoth/Mk-V. This assumes of course you don't need the med slots for defensive modules but then if you did you probably shouldn't be fitting for an MWD anyway (stabs in low instead of all those RCUs). I've been meaning to see if RCU-IIs allow indies below a Mammoth/Mk-V to fit MWDs. Anyone know if with RCU-IIs you can squeeze an MWD on a Mk-IV or Bestower? As for those who think other indies should be buffed to come closer to equaling a Mk-V I say no way. In fact, if anything I think the Mk-V should be even better than it is to reflect its training needs. It takes 30 days to train the thing...it ought to have noticeably better stats and as it is the Mammoth isn't too far off for a fraction of the training time. There are some neat ideas here to make indies more useful. A heavily armored indie would be great as an option. For balance it would give up cargo/speed. Another thing I think would be fun would be an EVE version of the AC-130H/U Spectre Gunship. Basically a cargo carrier that has given up its cargo to carry extremely heavy firepower. In EVE such a ship would be an industrial based ship (i.e. slow, low shields/armor) but would sport many guns. Be fun to lure in ganking frigs only for them to learn the hard way that this particular hauler has teeth.
Maric	Posted - 2004.07.30 05:48:00 - [53] Originally by: Mon Palae Anyone know if with RCU-IIs you can squeeze an MWD on a Mk-IV or Bestower? Unfortunatly, it cannot be done. Badger MK-II have good power output but but still 1 low slot short. Bestover have too low power output. Iteron MK-IV have both too low power output and low slot short. Others are worse then Iteron MK-IV. A few times I saw on market auctions for named RCU which gives 20% power boost. With this module Badger II and Bestower can mount MWD, but considering price it is pure teory
Maric	Posted - 2004.07.30 05:48:00 - [54] Originally by: Mon Palae Anyone know if with RCU-IIs you can squeeze an MWD on a Mk-IV or Bestower? Unfortunatly, it cannot be done. Badger MK-II have good power output but but still 1 low slot short. Bestover have too low power output. Iteron MK-IV have both too low power output and low slot short. Others are worse then Iteron MK-IV. A few times I saw on market auctions for named RCU which gives 20% power boost. With this module Badger II and Bestower can mount MWD, but considering price it is pure teory
Crucius Sanctus	Posted - 2004.07.30 06:44:00 - [55] I have only limited input I'm afraid, only been playing a week. I'm dissapointed to hear how fragile indies are. I kind of relish the idea of escorting civilian cargo transports and fending off pirates and such. Actually I'm kind of hoping they'll add missions for groups that involve escorting a player in a big indy and getting stopped mid-warp, only to hold off hordes of pirates before moving again. The main thing as a player that I don't understand is why there are clear 'best' ships. I know it takes an extremely long time to be able to pilot an Iteron V, but I don't understand why there aren't similar options for other races. For instance, Amarr have only one ship, which I've heard is the most cost effective if you only want to put one point into it. That's great, but what if you want to go the whole for lvl 5, you want to get Gallentean industrials instead. I think it would be great if there were a Iteron V, but to have the usual racial flavors in there. The Amarr ship would be an armor totting beast, probably, whereas another race might have more cargo space, another might be faster, things like that. I want to make money escorting you! It's what ship captains do.
Crucius Sanctus	Posted - 2004.07.30 06:44:00 - [56] I have only limited input I'm afraid, only been playing a week. I'm dissapointed to hear how fragile indies are. I kind of relish the idea of escorting civilian cargo transports and fending off pirates and such. Actually I'm kind of hoping they'll add missions for groups that involve escorting a player in a big indy and getting stopped mid-warp, only to hold off hordes of pirates before moving again. The main thing as a player that I don't understand is why there are clear 'best' ships. I know it takes an extremely long time to be able to pilot an Iteron V, but I don't understand why there aren't similar options for other races. For instance, Amarr have only one ship, which I've heard is the most cost effective if you only want to put one point into it. That's great, but what if you want to go the whole for lvl 5, you want to get Gallentean industrials instead. I think it would be great if there were a Iteron V, but to have the usual racial flavors in there. The Amarr ship would be an armor totting beast, probably, whereas another race might have more cargo space, another might be faster, things like that. I want to make money escorting you! It's what ship captains do.
Cruz	Posted - 2004.07.30 06:56:00 - [57] Originally by: Maric Originally by: Mon Palae Anyone know if with RCU-IIs you can squeeze an MWD on a Mk-IV or Bestower? Unfortunatly, it cannot be done. Badger MK-II have good power output but but still 1 low slot short. Bestover have too low power output. Iteron MK-IV have both too low power output and low slot short. Others are worse then Iteron MK-IV. A few times I saw on market auctions for named RCU which gives 20% power boost. With this module Badger II and Bestower can mount MWD, but considering price it is pure teory HUH?? assumming the badger mk II has 80 base PG which I believe it does, with engineering V you get 100 powergrid, with 3 15% RCU IIs you get 152 PG... just enough to fit a 10mn MWD. .................
Cruz	Posted - 2004.07.30 06:56:00 - [58] Originally by: Maric Originally by: Mon Palae Anyone know if with RCU-IIs you can squeeze an MWD on a Mk-IV or Bestower? Unfortunatly, it cannot be done. Badger MK-II have good power output but but still 1 low slot short. Bestover have too low power output. Iteron MK-IV have both too low power output and low slot short. Others are worse then Iteron MK-IV. A few times I saw on market auctions for named RCU which gives 20% power boost. With this module Badger II and Bestower can mount MWD, but considering price it is pure teory HUH?? assumming the badger mk II has 80 base PG which I believe it does, with engineering V you get 100 powergrid, with 3 15% RCU IIs you get 152 PG... just enough to fit a 10mn MWD. .................
Cutter John	Posted - 2004.07.30 07:37:00 - [59] the whole issue on expanders is messed up. you say dont use all expanders and you will survive better. thats true. but people use expanders because hauling is boring. very boring. its worse than mining, and thats saying something. so they fit expanders to make it go faster. 5 expanded 1's on a mk5 more than double the available cargo(from 7500 to 17k).. so if you have to make 40 trips with expanders, without you would have to make 90 trips. so say with expanders it would take 5 hours to haul the cargo, without it would take 11.3 hours. now on one hand, with expanders you can guarantee you'll save time, even if you get blown up(haulers are easily replaced) several times. kitting out for survival only helps against random frigate indypoppers. you wont save yourself from concentrated attacks. or be able to run blockades. on the other, you can be guaranteed to take more than twice as long as with expanders, all for a slightly larger chance to survive(still very small if its more than 1 frigate hunting you.). from my perspective, the answer is clear that using expanders and just accepting the occasional death is still far far more profitable than kitting out for max survivability and taking twice as long to haul everything i mine. the time saved is an enormous benefit. so i say just give a stacking penalty to expanders, and up the base cargo's and cargo bonuses by a lot. make base cargo 150% of what it is now, and make the bonus 10% per level. or more. that way you can fit one or 2 expanders and get some benefit, but you wont be compelled to fit 4 or 5 to save time and make the job bearable. also increasing the powergrid would help a lot. should be able to at least fit a medium extender and a medium turret, along with some other mods. 250 or so wouldnt be too overpowering for indies. and making the second highslot a launcherslot wouldnt hurt my feelings at all either =D. My Idea Thread Give Drones Love!
Cutter John	Posted - 2004.07.30 07:37:00 - [60] the whole issue on expanders is messed up. you say dont use all expanders and you will survive better. thats true. but people use expanders because hauling is boring. very boring. its worse than mining, and thats saying something. so they fit expanders to make it go faster. 5 expanded 1's on a mk5 more than double the available cargo(from 7500 to 17k).. so if you have to make 40 trips with expanders, without you would have to make 90 trips. so say with expanders it would take 5 hours to haul the cargo, without it would take 11.3 hours. now on one hand, with expanders you can guarantee you'll save time, even if you get blown up(haulers are easily replaced) several times. kitting out for survival only helps against random frigate indypoppers. you wont save yourself from concentrated attacks. or be able to run blockades. on the other, you can be guaranteed to take more than twice as long as with expanders, all for a slightly larger chance to survive(still very small if its more than 1 frigate hunting you.). from my perspective, the answer is clear that using expanders and just accepting the occasional death is still far far more profitable than kitting out for max survivability and taking twice as long to haul everything i mine. the time saved is an enormous benefit. so i say just give a stacking penalty to expanders, and up the base cargo's and cargo bonuses by a lot. make base cargo 150% of what it is now, and make the bonus 10% per level. or more. that way you can fit one or 2 expanders and get some benefit, but you wont be compelled to fit 4 or 5 to save time and make the job bearable. also increasing the powergrid would help a lot. should be able to at least fit a medium extender and a medium turret, along with some other mods. 250 or so wouldnt be too overpowering for indies. and making the second highslot a launcherslot wouldnt hurt my feelings at all either =D. My Idea Thread Give Drones Love!

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