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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:02:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 29/07/2004 05:08:19
I mainly ask this since I seem to spend far too much time in one so it is of some personal concern and partly since I am not sure I have ever seen a thread talking about them (although quite possible I missed it).
Yes, haulers are the dull and boring ships of EVE. However, despite their dullness they are a class of ship we all use at some point or another. Hauling 7 mil of trit 12j to where you want to build a new battleship is a pain in a hauler. In any other ship the attempt doesn't really bear thinking about.
I am writing this thread asking for honest opinions. I am of two minds on them and having trouble reconciling a good middle ground that makes EVE better overall.
1) On the one hand haulers are stunningly easy to gank. Yes, a good hauler can get away if lucky/prepared/gankers are asleep and the hauler has instajumps. Mostly they just die when a competent person in an Ibis or better goes after one (only kinda kidding about the Ibis).
2) On the other hand haulers should be stunningly easy to gank. I mean, they are space trucks afterall. They aren't supposed to be armored like a battleship or as nimble as a frigate.
Is there any way to lessen the gap between these two extremes that makes sense?
For instance, many here on the forums agitate for the removal of instajumps and CCP seems to be mulling the idea over. What little chance haulers have of getting by trouble today exists solely in the use of instajumps and even then haulers are nowhere near untouchable (as I've learned the hard way).
To be clear I am not suggesting unstoppable haulers either but therein lies the dilemma. How do you make them have some chance via skill and ship stats to get a cargo through while still being reasonably stoppable by pirates/enemies?
Note this is not some carebear whine but face it...as it stands only the terminally stupid move anything highly valuable in a hauler (I know...some still do but on the whole most know better). There was a thread not too long ago where some pirate stopped ganking a Tempest he had near dead to switch to shooting a hauler that showed up. Tempest got away because he switched to the hauler. Lesson to be had here is most everyone loves shooting haulers first and foremost. On Chaos awhile back some people tested running haulers (without instajumps) through a gate camp. Number of haulers that made the gate? Zero (despite all sorts of escort tactics).
The more survivable a hauler is the more likely they will bother carrying more valuable cargo in places they might get ganked. So, carebears feel better at getting the hauler through in one piece and pirates/enemies have a better chance at more valuable loot.
Any ideas? Is there a better balance to be had or is it as good as it will get with haulers?
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:02:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 29/07/2004 05:08:19
I mainly ask this since I seem to spend far too much time in one so it is of some personal concern and partly since I am not sure I have ever seen a thread talking about them (although quite possible I missed it).
Yes, haulers are the dull and boring ships of EVE. However, despite their dullness they are a class of ship we all use at some point or another. Hauling 7 mil of trit 12j to where you want to build a new battleship is a pain in a hauler. In any other ship the attempt doesn't really bear thinking about.
I am writing this thread asking for honest opinions. I am of two minds on them and having trouble reconciling a good middle ground that makes EVE better overall.
1) On the one hand haulers are stunningly easy to gank. Yes, a good hauler can get away if lucky/prepared/gankers are asleep and the hauler has instajumps. Mostly they just die when a competent person in an Ibis or better goes after one (only kinda kidding about the Ibis).
2) On the other hand haulers should be stunningly easy to gank. I mean, they are space trucks afterall. They aren't supposed to be armored like a battleship or as nimble as a frigate.
Is there any way to lessen the gap between these two extremes that makes sense?
For instance, many here on the forums agitate for the removal of instajumps and CCP seems to be mulling the idea over. What little chance haulers have of getting by trouble today exists solely in the use of instajumps and even then haulers are nowhere near untouchable (as I've learned the hard way).
To be clear I am not suggesting unstoppable haulers either but therein lies the dilemma. How do you make them have some chance via skill and ship stats to get a cargo through while still being reasonably stoppable by pirates/enemies?
Note this is not some carebear whine but face it...as it stands only the terminally stupid move anything highly valuable in a hauler (I know...some still do but on the whole most know better). There was a thread not too long ago where some pirate stopped ganking a Tempest he had near dead to switch to shooting a hauler that showed up. Tempest got away because he switched to the hauler. Lesson to be had here is most everyone loves shooting haulers first and foremost. On Chaos awhile back some people tested running haulers (without instajumps) through a gate camp. Number of haulers that made the gate? Zero (despite all sorts of escort tactics).
The more survivable a hauler is the more likely they will bother carrying more valuable cargo in places they might get ganked. So, carebears feel better at getting the hauler through in one piece and pirates/enemies have a better chance at more valuable loot.
Any ideas? Is there a better balance to be had or is it as good as it will get with haulers?
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Cruz
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:05:00 -
[3]
Haulers should be nerfed so that they can only carry megacyte and zydrine and so that nothign else can carry megacyte/zydrine  
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Cruz
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:05:00 -
[4]
Haulers should be nerfed so that they can only carry megacyte and zydrine and so that nothign else can carry megacyte/zydrine
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:09:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Cruz
Haulers should be nerfed so that they can only carry megacyte and zydrine and so that nothign else can carry megacyte/zydrine
hehe
I have seen a few threads recently where some lucky pirate came across a hauler with tens of thousands of units of Mega/Zyd aboard. Must be like pirates of old coming across the Spanish gold ships.
General opinoin though is anyone stupid enough to move Mega/Zyd in a hauler pretty much deserves to get ganked and I tend to agree as things stand now.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cruz
Haulers should be nerfed so that they can only carry megacyte and zydrine and so that nothign else can carry megacyte/zydrine
hehe
I have seen a few threads recently where some lucky pirate came across a hauler with tens of thousands of units of Mega/Zyd aboard. Must be like pirates of old coming across the Spanish gold ships.
General opinoin though is anyone stupid enough to move Mega/Zyd in a hauler pretty much deserves to get ganked and I tend to agree as things stand now.
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Lucian Alucard
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:24:00 -
[7]
Well on one hand I am of the mind haulers should have a minimum of low slots. Meaning no few then X number of low slots. Low slots save lives. Think on it. Warp core stabs and cap relays are the main stay mods of hauling. The more u have the less likely u are to get ganked. Also why isn't there another Amarr indy? Do the Amarr get no love?
On the other hand if things are done to make indys harder to gank then I will soon be out of a job. YES I AM A BUNNY KILLER!
Please stop being a third rate flamer,I am tired of reactivating my account just to kick your ass. |
Lucian Alucard
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:24:00 -
[8]
Well on one hand I am of the mind haulers should have a minimum of low slots. Meaning no few then X number of low slots. Low slots save lives. Think on it. Warp core stabs and cap relays are the main stay mods of hauling. The more u have the less likely u are to get ganked. Also why isn't there another Amarr indy? Do the Amarr get no love?
On the other hand if things are done to make indys harder to gank then I will soon be out of a job. YES I AM A BUNNY KILLER!
Please stop being a third rate flamer,I am tired of reactivating my account just to kick your ass. |
Feaux Tomai
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:28:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lucian Alucard
Also why isn't there another Amarr indy? Do the Amarr get no love?
If you can haul slaves in it, you can haul anything.
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Feaux Tomai
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lucian Alucard
Also why isn't there another Amarr indy? Do the Amarr get no love?
If you can haul slaves in it, you can haul anything.
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Maric
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:36:00 -
[11]
Indy's do need love.
1. More high slots. This will allow them to fit more miner laser's. Low power output, low speed and agility, low armor and shield will prevent them to become destroyer class cruiser.
2. Drone bay's. Small one's, 300m3 max. to give them some defence.
3. New module type's for a medium slot, passive one to boost speed. Or ajust existing ones to be on medium slots.
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Maric
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Posted - 2004.07.29 05:36:00 -
[12]
Indy's do need love.
1. More high slots. This will allow them to fit more miner laser's. Low power output, low speed and agility, low armor and shield will prevent them to become destroyer class cruiser.
2. Drone bay's. Small one's, 300m3 max. to give them some defence.
3. New module type's for a medium slot, passive one to boost speed. Or ajust existing ones to be on medium slots.
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juduzz
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Posted - 2004.07.29 06:11:00 -
[13]
Indies dont need any luuuvin,
there supposed to be slow/unagile plus setem up and you can wtfpwn most ceptors/frigs with them. ( just dont get krulls of CDI doing it or he will sing BADGER BADGER while he is on TS 0_o )
Want more protection TBH then the pilot should take an escort.
Want more speed change exspanders for speed mods and AB's.
Thats myy opinion.
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juduzz
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Posted - 2004.07.29 06:11:00 -
[14]
Indies dont need any luuuvin,
there supposed to be slow/unagile plus setem up and you can wtfpwn most ceptors/frigs with them. ( just dont get krulls of CDI doing it or he will sing BADGER BADGER while he is on TS 0_o )
Want more protection TBH then the pilot should take an escort.
Want more speed change exspanders for speed mods and AB's.
Thats myy opinion.
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Cutter John
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Posted - 2004.07.29 06:13:00 -
[15]
also the fact that there is exactly one hauler that is clearly the best in all respects needs to change. if you haul a lot, you get the iteronv. period. the only ship thats better in a way is the badger 2, as it can survive a tad better. or the mammoth because it actually looks cool, and not like a phallus.
imagine if one bs was so far above the rest no others were worth getting. people would howl.
btw... i think that haulers should get more options to protect themselves. i have plenty of spare cash lying around... i would pay top dollar for a bs class hauler rather than the cruiser classes we have now. second post down in the link under my thread has my take on this subject.
My Idea Thread
Give Drones Love! |
Cutter John
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Posted - 2004.07.29 06:13:00 -
[16]
also the fact that there is exactly one hauler that is clearly the best in all respects needs to change. if you haul a lot, you get the iteronv. period. the only ship thats better in a way is the badger 2, as it can survive a tad better. or the mammoth because it actually looks cool, and not like a phallus.
imagine if one bs was so far above the rest no others were worth getting. people would howl.
btw... i think that haulers should get more options to protect themselves. i have plenty of spare cash lying around... i would pay top dollar for a bs class hauler rather than the cruiser classes we have now. second post down in the link under my thread has my take on this subject.
My Idea Thread
Give Drones Love! |
Cruz
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Posted - 2004.07.29 06:42:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Cutter John
also the fact that there is exactly one hauler that is clearly the best in all respects needs to change. if you haul a lot, you get the iteronv. period. the only ship thats better in a way is the badger 2, as it can survive a tad better. or the mammoth because it actually looks cool, and not like a phallus.
imagine if one bs was so far above the rest no others were worth getting. people would howl.
btw... i think that haulers should get more options to protect themselves. i have plenty of spare cash lying around... i would pay top dollar for a bs class hauler rather than the cruiser classes we have now. second post down in the link under my thread has my take on this subject.
EHH?? Dont forget an iteron mark V takes 40 or so days to train for... thats a hell of a long time for just one indy when a mammoth/badger2/bestower will do...
Plus mammoth looks cool because it should have been a BS
................. |
Cruz
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Posted - 2004.07.29 06:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Cutter John
also the fact that there is exactly one hauler that is clearly the best in all respects needs to change. if you haul a lot, you get the iteronv. period. the only ship thats better in a way is the badger 2, as it can survive a tad better. or the mammoth because it actually looks cool, and not like a phallus.
imagine if one bs was so far above the rest no others were worth getting. people would howl.
btw... i think that haulers should get more options to protect themselves. i have plenty of spare cash lying around... i would pay top dollar for a bs class hauler rather than the cruiser classes we have now. second post down in the link under my thread has my take on this subject.
EHH?? Dont forget an iteron mark V takes 40 or so days to train for... thats a hell of a long time for just one indy when a mammoth/badger2/bestower will do...
Plus mammoth looks cool because it should have been a BS
................. |
Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.07.29 07:20:00 -
[19]
Originally by: juduzz
Want more protection TBH then the pilot should take an escort.
Want more speed change exspanders for speed mods and AB's.
Escorts are close to worthless for a hauler. Most anything can gank the hauler in a few shots and then probably still be able to run away from your escort (or fight them or whatever).
Scouts can be useful inasmuch as they can tell the hauler to run.
I don't mind that they are slow (ok...don't like it but understandable and what I would expect so no issues there).
Hmmm...maybe an escort feature unique to haulers. If the hauler gangs other ships the hauler gains a noticeable shield bonus and/or speed boost and/or cap charge boost. Effectively this takes the place of mods but makes it so your friends don't have to target you and engage mods by which time the hauler may well be dead anyway.
The downside should be the ships the hauler gangs drop their max speed to the hauler's speed. All ships in gang warp at 3 AU/s. Perhaps the escorts lose 10% (or whatever) of their shields that they are "giving" to the hauler.
This would leave solo haulers the way they are which is the bulk of hauling anyway but open possibilities for escorts to help. You might even see escorts for higher since they would actually be useful.
Just thinking out loud.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.07.29 07:20:00 -
[20]
Originally by: juduzz
Want more protection TBH then the pilot should take an escort.
Want more speed change exspanders for speed mods and AB's.
Escorts are close to worthless for a hauler. Most anything can gank the hauler in a few shots and then probably still be able to run away from your escort (or fight them or whatever).
Scouts can be useful inasmuch as they can tell the hauler to run.
I don't mind that they are slow (ok...don't like it but understandable and what I would expect so no issues there).
Hmmm...maybe an escort feature unique to haulers. If the hauler gangs other ships the hauler gains a noticeable shield bonus and/or speed boost and/or cap charge boost. Effectively this takes the place of mods but makes it so your friends don't have to target you and engage mods by which time the hauler may well be dead anyway.
The downside should be the ships the hauler gangs drop their max speed to the hauler's speed. All ships in gang warp at 3 AU/s. Perhaps the escorts lose 10% (or whatever) of their shields that they are "giving" to the hauler.
This would leave solo haulers the way they are which is the bulk of hauling anyway but open possibilities for escorts to help. You might even see escorts for higher since they would actually be useful.
Just thinking out loud.
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Maric
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Posted - 2004.07.29 08:35:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Maric on 29/07/2004 08:46:19
Edited by: Maric on 29/07/2004 08:39:24
First of all, we need one thing clear:
Are indy transport ships or are they industrial?
If they are transport ships only, then there is nothing to do, they can be nerfed and nobody will noticed (IE smaller CPU output, lesser med/hi slots).
If they are industrial, then there is a huge job to do!
When I say industrial I mean producing stuff, minning stuff, reprocessing stuff, researching stuff - a micro station. Mobile rafineries, mobile factories, mobile labs, minning lasers with everything fitted on slots and done in cargobay with help science graduates, slaves, homeless people. This is industrial for me. Thats the way to make this game more interesting for nonfighting people.
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Maric
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Posted - 2004.07.29 08:35:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Maric on 29/07/2004 08:46:19
Edited by: Maric on 29/07/2004 08:39:24
First of all, we need one thing clear:
Are indy transport ships or are they industrial?
If they are transport ships only, then there is nothing to do, they can be nerfed and nobody will noticed (IE smaller CPU output, lesser med/hi slots).
If they are industrial, then there is a huge job to do!
When I say industrial I mean producing stuff, minning stuff, reprocessing stuff, researching stuff - a micro station. Mobile rafineries, mobile factories, mobile labs, minning lasers with everything fitted on slots and done in cargobay with help science graduates, slaves, homeless people. This is industrial for me. Thats the way to make this game more interesting for nonfighting people.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.07.29 08:45:00 -
[23]
They are transport.
Forget about having your indy build you a BS, get back to mining already.
Industrials are balanced quite well imo. They shoul be reasonably vulnerable unescorted, and they are.
It's people feeling hte need for 5 27% expanders on their indy that makes em vulnerable. Some of them can actually take quite a beating for a ship that size if equipped defensively.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.07.29 08:45:00 -
[24]
They are transport.
Forget about having your indy build you a BS, get back to mining already.
Industrials are balanced quite well imo. They shoul be reasonably vulnerable unescorted, and they are.
It's people feeling hte need for 5 27% expanders on their indy that makes em vulnerable. Some of them can actually take quite a beating for a ship that size if equipped defensively.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Lusiphur
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Posted - 2004.07.29 08:47:00 -
[25]
I think that speed/defense wise haulers are probably where they should be. They are meant to be slow and they are meant to be vulnerable.
The only thing I would change is to up the cargo space on the Mammoth/Bestower/Badger 2 a bit to make them more viable alternatives to the Iteron V.
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Lusiphur
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Posted - 2004.07.29 08:47:00 -
[26]
I think that speed/defense wise haulers are probably where they should be. They are meant to be slow and they are meant to be vulnerable.
The only thing I would change is to up the cargo space on the Mammoth/Bestower/Badger 2 a bit to make them more viable alternatives to the Iteron V.
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Maric
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Posted - 2004.07.29 08:55:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Maric on 29/07/2004 09:07:33
Originally by: Rod Blaine
...
They shoul be reasonably vulnerable unescorted, and they are.
Dont thik You read my post carefuly. I was not talking about fighting in indy.
Originally by: Rod Blaine
They are transport.
Well, if CCP think so, (and most likely they do) this is end of story for me. Lets just everybody go to 0.0 to shoot each other. Yet another CS clone   
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Maric
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Posted - 2004.07.29 08:55:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Maric on 29/07/2004 09:07:33
Originally by: Rod Blaine
...
They shoul be reasonably vulnerable unescorted, and they are.
Dont thik You read my post carefuly. I was not talking about fighting in indy.
Originally by: Rod Blaine
They are transport.
Well, if CCP think so, (and most likely they do) this is end of story for me. Lets just everybody go to 0.0 to shoot each other. Yet another CS clone
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Gomatong
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Posted - 2004.07.29 09:08:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Maric
Edited by: Maric on 29/07/2004 08:46:19
Edited by: Maric on 29/07/2004 08:39:24
First of all, we need one thing clear:
Are indy transport ships or are they industrial?
If they are transport ships only, then there is nothing to do, they can be nerfed and nobody will noticed (IE smaller CPU output, lesser med/hi slots).
If they are industrial, then there is a huge job to do!
When I say industrial I mean producing stuff, minning stuff, reprocessing stuff, researching stuff - a micro station. Mobile rafineries, mobile factories, mobile labs, minning lasers with everything fitted on slots and done in cargobay with help science graduates, slaves, homeless people. This is industrial for me. Thats the way to make this game more interesting for nonfighting people.
Bah Industrials - empty box with rockets more like! Indies should be able to manufacture consumables like Ammo or Drones at reduced ME levels, provide limited deep-space fitting / repair facilities, operate salvage drones etc. This would make the indy a very desirable ship. Give them 2 more high slots and a little more PG for some limtied defences.
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Gomatong
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Posted - 2004.07.29 09:08:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Maric
Edited by: Maric on 29/07/2004 08:46:19
Edited by: Maric on 29/07/2004 08:39:24
First of all, we need one thing clear:
Are indy transport ships or are they industrial?
If they are transport ships only, then there is nothing to do, they can be nerfed and nobody will noticed (IE smaller CPU output, lesser med/hi slots).
If they are industrial, then there is a huge job to do!
When I say industrial I mean producing stuff, minning stuff, reprocessing stuff, researching stuff - a micro station. Mobile rafineries, mobile factories, mobile labs, minning lasers with everything fitted on slots and done in cargobay with help science graduates, slaves, homeless people. This is industrial for me. Thats the way to make this game more interesting for nonfighting people.
Bah Industrials - empty box with rockets more like! Indies should be able to manufacture consumables like Ammo or Drones at reduced ME levels, provide limited deep-space fitting / repair facilities, operate salvage drones etc. This would make the indy a very desirable ship. Give them 2 more high slots and a little more PG for some limtied defences.
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