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Why Falcons suck, and why this isn't a whine...

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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.25 09:52:00 - [1] Today I had a rather amusing, if completely pointless engagement. Us: couple BS, couple BCs, HIC for tackle, Thanatos for laughs and a Falcon for emergencies camping a high sec gate in a low sec system. Them: 14-16+ in gang (lost count), notables: 3x Falcons, 8+ BS, 2x logistics, misc. support. Why Falcons suck: nobody could kill anyone. At all. Our goofball carrier pilot ended up getting tackled at the gate and we had to rescue him, requiring us to undock an additional two carriers and log in an additional Falcon (we were still down one Falcon). Our carriers had 2+ ECCM fitted EACH: approximately 273 sensor strength per carrier. We still got jammed. A lot. From 200+ Km away. Nobody lost anything. On either side. They all deagressed and jumped to high sec after their Falcons jammed all of our guys solid and they made it back into jump range after our webs were removed, and our Falcons jammed their guys well enough that we all just stopped shooting at each other and finally warped out. What fun is it when everyone is jammed solid? Even carriers with insane sensor strength? We both had Falcons, we both used them. But Falcons just aren't fun. At least a Scorpion can be dealt with (they had one of those as well, lol). I'd gladly give up my Falcons if I knew the enemy couldn't use them either. There was nothing wrong with them when they had the jam strength of a Blackbird. They still jammed people very well, but weren't as powerful as a full on Rook or Scorpion. Now they're just ridiculous. The other day I was looking at some of my corpmate's loss mails and was shaking my head at the three or FOUR Falcons on each loss mail. It's ridiculous. I'd like to hear a really solid argument for why the above types of fights are fun and a good thing for Eve PVP. Where everyone brings loads of Falcons and everyone is jammed and everyone goes home with nothing more than wasted ammo and a few popped drones to show for it.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.25 09:56:00 - [2] What ships did you have fitted to counter long range EW?
Silent Ceremony	Posted - 2009.01.25 09:56:00 - [3] :facepalm: because some people bring out ships that can kill falcons instead of more falcons these people then have fun fights
Rifter Drifter Minmatar You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2009.01.25 09:57:00 - [4] french people are embarrasingly annoying and **** at life
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.25 10:03:00 - [5] Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 25/01/2009 10:04:54 Originally by: Malcanis What ships did you have fitted to counter long range EW? You mean besides three carriers with over 270 sensor strength and the lock range to sic fighters on the Falcons? That kind of counter? If Falcon pilots actually know what they're doing, the best you can hope for is to simply make them leave, not actually kill any of them. And they didn't have to keep everyone in my gang jammed 100%, just long enough for their gang mates to mwd back to the gate and get ready to jump out.
Silent Ceremony	Posted - 2009.01.25 10:03:00 - [6] Edited by: Silent Ceremony on 25/01/2009 10:03:40 Originally by: Malcanis What ships did you have fitted to counter long range EW? why they just have more falcons, then they wonder why they can't kill anything edit: ah yes, eccm'ed-up carriers, that should do it
Hamoycal Karyst	Posted - 2009.01.25 10:11:00 - [7] agreed this happen everyday always, 'couse everyday more pilots skill for the falcon the arazu was nerfed to death to avoid this situations, now... give the arazu back or fix the damn falcon!
Stitcher Caldari Veto.	Posted - 2009.01.25 10:12:00 - [8] Falcons = NO damage output. None. Nada. They also = no tank. At all. They're somewhat prolific, I grant you, which can make fights a little dull, but I remember one of the most fun fights I was ever in resulted in neither side actually killing anything. Admittedly because we were trying to kill a pair of carriers that had h-dictor support inside dock range of a station, but still... there were falcons and it was still a fun fight.
Jalif Black Sinisters	Posted - 2009.01.25 10:14:00 - [9] Falcons why you shouldn't use them. 1) See Above 2) People will rather igore you if they can't counter the falcon = you don't get anybody to kill 3) People will BLOB BLOB you just to counter the effect of falcons. If falcon jams 4 people they will bring 4 more people to counter it. Meaning: You don't get a fight because you will leave the battle scene 4) People will bring more falcons which is basicly point 3 which leads to point 1. Welcome to **ED UP EVE with a **ED UP COMMUNITY
Research Rachel	Posted - 2009.01.25 10:15:00 - [10] seriously, the whining is getting boring about falcons now. I'm a falcon pilot, i know how many jams i get on a carrier and i can tell you it's not a lot, even before someone fits ECCM. I'm starting to think you noobs get jammed once then don't bother relocking and come here to whine. Next time fit the BS's with ECCM, ACTVIATE IT when you undock then try, if you get jammed then keep clicking the lock button and hey look, we can lock again
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.25 10:22:00 - [11] Incidentally, I might have had some sympathy for the "where's the fun" argument had it not been for this thread. I tried and tried to elicit a "fun" EW to replace "not fun" ECM, but all I got was the same old copypasta doublethink and dishonesty. ECM whiners - that's you Bellum, because your post is a whine - don't want ECM to be fun. You just want it to suck enough to be able to ignore it. Candidly, I'm disappointed in you. I'd have thought that you of all people would know that whining for nerfs is at best lame and at worst, counter-productive. You know damb well that EvE NEEDS effective EW. You know damb well that at the moment, ECM is the only counter to spidertanking. You know damb well that ECM was an effective counter to nanoships, and a prime reason why nano didn't need nerfing as savagely as it was. I, as an ECM pilot, argued strongly on that point by the way. I opposed that nerf on the grounds that - although it took some SP, some skill, some organisation - nanoships could be dealt with. Well the whiners won that one, and look what happened to your beloved baster ships as a collateral consequence. And now, what? because opposing ECM ships takes some skill, some SP, some organisation, you're stringing us out to dry, regardless of the obvious, repeatedly demonstrated consequences? Why aren't you asking for stealthbombers and gallante EW ships to be fixed so that they can counter falcons as they should be doing? Why aren't you supporting proposals like giving Logistics ships an ECCM range bonus? You're as bad as stabwounds. Quit DoV and join the Caldari FW militia, because that's where you belong.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.25 10:25:00 - [12] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 25/01/2009 10:04:54 Originally by: Malcanis What ships did you have fitted to counter long range EW? You mean besides three carriers with over 270 sensor strength and the lock range to sic fighters on the Falcons? That kind of counter? If Falcon pilots actually know what they're doing, the best you can hope for is to simply make them leave, not actually kill any of them. And they didn't have to keep everyone in my gang jammed 100%, just long enough for their gang mates to mwd back to the gate and get ready to jump out. No, I mean like ECCM tachypocs, ECCM cerbs, scorpions, Arazus.
Andreya Direct Intent	Posted - 2009.01.25 10:30:00 - [13] Originally by: Research Rachel seriously, the whining is getting boring about falcons now. I'm a falcon pilot, i know how many jams i get on a carrier and i can tell you it's not a lot, even before someone fits ECCM. I'm starting to think you noobs get jammed once then don't bother relocking and come here to whine. Next time fit the BS's with ECCM, ACTVIATE IT when you undock then try, if you get jammed then keep clicking the lock button and hey look, we can lock again I think the main problem with ecm is : that everyone expects to see falcons when theres combat, that nearly everyone has to fit an ECCM when possible just to counter ONE spaceship specificly in the game. (only cause we see falcons alot me than most other ecm ships) no other ship in eve creates such a mass amount of complaining, that they have to fit a countermeasure just to 'help' prevent it _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2009.01.25 10:31:00 - [14] No worries, let's just all train for Falcons and fly them to get them nerfed. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.25 10:54:00 - [15] Originally by: Malcanis <snipped for space> You're as bad as stabwounds. Quit DoV and join the Caldari FW militia, because that's where you belong. I'm not saying that we don't need ECM. I'm saying that Falcons are not fun for PVP. Frankly I don't have much of a problem with Rooks or Scorpions or Blackbirds. You can see them coming, you can prepare for them and they're easier to fight. But how many other ECM ships do you need (types that is) when the Falcon trumps them all? Just as good range as any ECM ship, same strength, same effectiveness, and oh look, it can cloak. The Falcon makes everything redundant. I agree with your thread that we need to replace the current ECM system with something else. What, I don't know. Quite frankly I think it needs to be something entirely different than what it is now. Breaking your lock means that you completely remove 100% of that ships' capability to contribute anything to a fight, save be a paperweight or bump someone. Increasing ECCM won't help much. Not if the ECM formula allows for a ship with 270+ sensor strength to be jammed. ECM needs to have stacking effects that diminish the effects of multiple ECM applied to a single target, and there needs to be a jamming threshold where by if a ship has say 200% more sensor strength than the ECM applied to it, then it's simply unable to be jammed, at all. Additionally, ECM's cycle time and cool down time need to be asymmetric, that is the time that an ECM jams it's target needs to be shorter than it's cool down time, so that it takes multiple overlapping jams to get a target completely out of the fight. Arazus aren't overpowered because one of them can maybe only remove one, possibly two ships from a fight. A Falcon has the potential to completely stop 4-5 ships at a time from doing anything. At least a damped ship can remote rep his buddies. As for RR gangs: yes, they need to be nerfed, and hard. Put stacking penalties on remote reps: for every one applied, you get less of a benefit, with the fourth remote rep you only get 7% effectiveness, and zero with the fourth. CCP has already built far too much capability into large blobs as it is, and they have really screwed up how combat scales from small to large groups. They need to introduce more ship classes that allow for more tiers of ships so that each tier can be tailored for a different type of combat (small, medium, large). CCP has slapped stacking penalties on everything else, why not ECM and RR? p.s. If you really think that I was sincere when I said that the OP 'isn't a whine', well.... . I just do that to get a rise out of people. Whad'da ya know? It works.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.25 10:58:00 - [16] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 25/01/2009 10:04:54 Originally by: Malcanis What ships did you have fitted to counter long range EW? You mean besides three carriers with over 270 sensor strength and the lock range to sic fighters on the Falcons? That kind of counter? If Falcon pilots actually know what they're doing, the best you can hope for is to simply make them leave, not actually kill any of them. And they didn't have to keep everyone in my gang jammed 100%, just long enough for their gang mates to mwd back to the gate and get ready to jump out. No, I mean like ECCM tachypocs, ECCM cerbs, scorpions, Arazus. p.p.s. If the Falcon wasn't so friggin good, maybe we'd see more use of TDs, Damps and TPs, because not that they aren't good, but just because they're a poor second option when you can have the same person in a Falcon?
thesonarnet Gallente DEFCON. Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:05:00 - [17] Falcons are for "bobos", real men fly Gallente!
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Silent Ceremony :facepalm: because some people bring out ships that can kill falcons instead of more falcons these people then have fun fights Because Falcons tend to be more effective counters to Falcons than specific Falcon killer ships in small gangs. People bring what works best. That is why we got the whole nano-thing spreading like a plague across EVE before the QR changes. Speed was best countered with more speed. Falcons are best countered with more Falcons.
Gneeznow Minmatar Goo Spew	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:27:00 - [19] haha they moved your thread to warfare and tactics!
Xol'tan Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:33:00 - [20] CCP should make ECM scripts so you get to use weak half power ECM and 150+km or use full power ECM at 40-km, this would go some way towards bringing them inline with damps and tracking disruptors, you could still jam up a frigate gang at 150km and save your mate whos tackled but will no longer jam half a BS gang from half way across the solor system.
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:34:00 - [21] Originally by: Research Rachel seriously, the whining is getting boring about falcons now. I'm a falcon pilot, i know how many jams i get on a carrier and i can tell you it's not a lot, even before someone fits ECCM. TBH This. I've jammed (and tried to jam) Capital ships before and sometimes it works well (sometimes even very well) but other times I found myself waist deep in the brown stuff because things were working as intended ... Originally by: Malcanis Stuff TBH This too, though looking at the post you linked I do disagree slightly: Personally, I greatly enjoy my focus in PvP being that I attempt to either knock out a select few opponents for as long as possible OR that I cycle my jamming attempts across as much of the opposition as I can to reduce their effectiveness as best I can by breaking whatever locks they have, temporarily. At the same time I have to remain very aware of what is going on around me otherwise I'm very quickly reminded that my ECM and my distance was my tanking. Originally by: Bellum Eternus If the Falcon wasn't so friggin good, maybe we'd see more use of TDs, Damps and TPs, because not that they aren't good, but just because they're a poor second option when you can have the same person in a Falcon? Except that those are all pretty much crap now, even if you do nerf the Falcon. You can't have one without the other unless you want to completely trash electronic warfare altogether in favor of a focus on bigger guns v.s. bigger tanks in PvP. Granted, the RSD isn't found on practically every PvP fitting anymore but unfortunately to achieve that change, CCP also killed the Tracking Disruptor too - the Target Painter having already been a little bit rubbish compared to the others to begin with. A complete set of tactics were essentially almost vanquished when Scripts were introduced to those modules in favor of the bigger guns and bigger tanks approach to PvP - force multipliers shelved in favor of additive thinking isn't going to reduce blob sizes, CCP ...
Julius Rigel House Rigel	Posted - 2009.01.25 12:38:00 - [22] Originally by: Bellum Eternus not fun PVP PVP is serious business. If you're having fun you're doing it wrong. ... or flying a Falcon.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.25 13:14:00 - [23] Originally by: Gneeznow haha they moved your thread to warfare and tactics! I know! I think they hate me. Meh. It's been sent to die next to all the other Falcon whine threads. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Monotard	Posted - 2009.01.25 13:15:00 - [24] Nerfing Falcons would be bad for business. Think of all those people who have a Falcon Alt. Like, everybody and his Mum has a Falcon or the new FOTM neutral Logistics alt.
BuckStrider Fleem Co	Posted - 2009.01.25 15:14:00 - [25] Edited by: BuckStrider on 25/01/2009 15:14:49 Posting in yet another fail 'nerf ecm' whine thread. And really?...You use carriers for gatecamps?...What system is this again?
Soporo Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.25 19:02:00 - [26] Didnt CCP in their infinite wisdom BOOST Falcons since their first inception? Added range I believe. Who's the genius that did that and what tf were his reasons is what I want to know.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.01.25 20:51:00 - [27] They also boosted ecm jammer strength from 15%/lvl to 20%/lvl recently if I'm not mistaken. Good luck crying for a nerf
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.25 23:38:00 - [28] Originally by: BuckStrider Edited by: BuckStrider on 25/01/2009 15:14:49 Posting in yet another fail 'nerf ecm' whine thread. And really?...You use carriers for gatecamps?...What system is this again? No, not usually... guy was being a goofball and doing it just to be silly. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Shigsy Neo Spartans	Posted - 2009.01.25 23:53:00 - [29] Edited by: Shigsy on 25/01/2009 23:53:26 Delete ecm, makes this game ** boring. edit: i have maxed out falcon alt and i honestly wouldn't give two **s if they nerfed it to hell and back. In fact, i'd love it
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2009.01.25 23:54:00 - [30] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I'd like to hear a really solid argument for why the above types of fights are fun and a good thing for Eve PVP. Where everyone brings loads of Falcons and everyone is jammed and everyone goes home with nothing more than wasted ammo and a few popped drones to show for it. Yes, I'v yet to hear any argument that would somewhat explain why it a good thing having Falcons/ECM as it currently is. Hammerhead said that they use forum feedback as a tool for game balance, maybe it would be more constructive if they participated a little.
Deq	Posted - 2009.01.26 00:47:00 - [31] Originally by: Akiba Penrose Originally by: Bellum Eternus I'd like to hear a really solid argument for why the above types of fights are fun and a good thing for Eve PVP. Where everyone brings loads of Falcons and everyone is jammed and everyone goes home with nothing more than wasted ammo and a few popped drones to show for it. Yes, I'v yet to hear any argument that would somewhat explain why it a good thing having Falcons/ECM as it currently is. Hammerhead said that they use forum feedback as a tool for game balance, maybe it would be more constructive if they participated a little. Originally by: Malcanis Candidly, I'm disappointed in you. I'd have thought that you of all people would know that whining for nerfs is at best lame and at worst, counter-productive. You know damb well that EvE NEEDS effective EW. You know damb well that at the moment, ECM is the only counter to spidertanking. You know damb well that ECM was an effective counter to nanoships, and a prime reason why nano didn't need nerfing as savagely as it was. This.
Spoon1 Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.01.26 02:46:00 - [32] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Stuff Hey Bellum, I have to agree with your for the most part. I am a falcon pilot and yes I enjoy jamming people like crazy. However I still believe them to be slightly overpowered and using your dual ECCM argument as a basis, it stands. I recently had a discussion with corp/militia members about ECM and ECCM. I explained even if most of a fleet fitted ECCM, selective targets will still be jammed most of the time. They disagreed. Hence I am here to prove just how easy things are jammed. Forgive me if im wrong but the formula; ecmstrength/sensorstrength = % chance of jam So my falcon has a racial jam strength of 13.77. A Rokh has a sensor strength of 24. 13.77/24=0.57 or 57% chance of jamming If I overheat the module it has a strength of 14.67 14.67/24=0.61 or 61% chance of jamming If you fit an ECCM to the Rokh; 13.77/47=0.29 or 29% chance of jamming 14.67/47=0.31 or 31% chance of jamming If the Rokh fits two ECCM it has a sensor strength of 86.3. (Lets face it, what ****head is going to fit two ECCM on a Rokh) 14.67/86.3=0.169 or 16.9% chance of jamming. Even if the counters are fitted, I still have a nearly 17% chance of jamming him, which lets face it, will mean I will jamm him. I fit a probe launcher on mine so I dont have quite as high a modifier as some out there also. So factor that into my calculations. You fit x2 ECCM, there is still amost a 20% chance you will be jammed during fights. And just to show how bad marauders are, a Paladin with two ECCM fitted; 13.77/43=0.32 or 32% chance of jam
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 04:31:00 - [33] Originally by: Spoon1 And just to show how bad marauders are, a Paladin with two ECCM fitted; 13.77/43=0.32 or 32% chance of jam Marauders are intended to be "bad".
Tefkros The Dead Pod Society Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.26 06:35:00 - [34] Edited by: Tefkros on 26/01/2009 06:35:30 Originally by: Stitcher Falcons = NO damage output. None. Nada. The stupidity of this statement and the fact people keep using it as an argument still amazes me. Here, let me illustrate: 3 BS, 600dps each vs 6 BS, 600dps each 1800dps vs 3600dps 1:2 damage ratio 3 BS, 1 Falcon vs 6 BS, 600dps each. 3 BS jammed (lets not be idiots and claim that all 6 BS get jammed) 1800dps vs 1800dps 1:1 damage ratio It seems that a single Falcon brought it¦s gang¦s damage on par with the hostile gang, even though it has achieved this by negating the enemy damage output. If there are 2 Falcons or if the Falcon gets a jam on another BS, then you have AT LEAST an effective 600dps advantage over the jammed gang. Yes, the Falcon that "does no DPS" is the reason for this advantage. This of course is acceptable since Falcons, like all recons are force multipliers. Just stop using the "they don¦t do any dps" as an argument. Go have your nerf fights after you put some thinking on what you are about to say, copying what everyone said isn¦t making the discussion constructive.
Malverious Prime NQX Innovations	Posted - 2009.01.26 06:53:00 - [35] I do find it strange that ECM (being the most powerful form of EW) has probably the greatest range(?)... with certain ship bonuses applied... I'd imagine Falcons would be slightly less powerful if they had to get in relatively close to use their uber EW.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.01.26 08:01:00 - [36] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 26/01/2009 08:06:14 Originally by: Malverious Prime I do find it strange that ECM (being the most powerful form of EW) has probably the greatest range(?)... with certain ship bonuses applied... I'd imagine Falcons would be slightly less powerful if they had to get in relatively close to use their uber EW. I can imagine tracking disruptors being a lot less powerful if they wouldnt be able to reduce turret range beyond the point where the ship using them cant be hit anymore. Example: Curse can use TDs up to 100km+, there is no turret ship in eve that can hit that far with only 2 TDs applied, and there is maybe one ship that can still hit if one TD is applied. And the effect works reliable, not chance based.
Deq	Posted - 2009.01.26 09:02:00 - [37] Nerf forums.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:39:00 - [38] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 26/01/2009 08:06:14 Originally by: Malverious Prime I do find it strange that ECM (being the most powerful form of EW) has probably the greatest range(?)... with certain ship bonuses applied... I'd imagine Falcons would be slightly less powerful if they had to get in relatively close to use their uber EW. I can imagine tracking disruptors being a lot less powerful if they wouldnt be able to reduce turret range beyond the point where the ship using them cant be hit anymore. Example: Curse can use TDs up to 100km+, there is no turret ship in eve that can hit that far with only 2 TDs applied, and there is maybe one ship that can still hit if one TD is applied. And the effect works reliable, not chance based. Or the Pilote don¦t use a Cruse and use a Falcon instead, sitting at 200km and jamming 2+ Ships not only shutting down Turret DPS but also Missle DPS(beside FOFs) the ability to apply Drones to a specific Target, RR or Tackling. Hard decision what to use, realy...
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:25:00 - [39] Originally by: Tefkros This of course is acceptable since Falcons, like all recons are force multipliers. Just stop using the "they don¦t do any dps" as an argument. A fair point actually ... I figure this puts them in the same class as say the Logistics - since they really are "support" classes which reduce the incoing damage in practice. It is funny that you don't see people screaming about (for example) dual Basilisks though - unless they're "neutrals" of course, lol. Though I suspect that if Falcons/Rooks and/or ECM are indeed nerfed at some point then we can expect them (Logistics) to be one of the next subjects to get similar ... treatment.
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:48:00 - [40] Originally by: Akiba Penrose I'v yet to hear any argument that would somewhat explain why it a good thing having Falcons/ECM as it currently is. Originally by: Deq Originally by: Malcanis Candidly, I'm disappointed in you. I'd have thought that you of all people would know that whining for nerfs is at best lame and at worst, counter-productive. You know damb well that EvE NEEDS effective EW. You know damb well that at the moment, ECM is the only counter to spidertanking. You know damb well that ECM was an effective counter to nanoships, and a prime reason why nano didn't need nerfing as savagely as it was. This. ECM is the most effective counter to anything. It is its effectiveness combined with invulnerability that is the problem. Originally by: Joss Sparq I figure this puts them in the same class as say the Logistics - since they really are "support" classes which reduce the incoing damage in practice. It is funny that you don't see people screaming about (for example) dual Basilisks though - unless they're "neutrals" of course, lol. Though I suspect that if Falcons/Rooks and/or ECM are indeed nerfed at some point then we can expect them (Logistics) to be one of the next subjects to get similar ... treatment. A couple of heavy neuts or a curse and those logistics are in serious trouble. If you had logistics that worked from 240km your argument would be valid.
Radcjk Caldari Failed Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:16:00 - [41] Originally by: Shigsy i have maxed out falcon alt This. I have a falcon. Its my main. If nobs would stop dual accounting falcon alts and callnig it 'solo pvp' (rofls), a significant number of these god damn things would go away. The falcon isn't as ****ed up so much as a massively metagaming community.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:47:00 - [42] Poasting in yet another whine thread
Lt Angus Caldari End Game. The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2009.01.28 00:26:00 - [43] The real question is why only 2 eccm, Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
gpfault Haunted House	Posted - 2009.01.28 05:19:00 - [44] Originally by: Lt Angus The real question is why only 2 eccm, Indeed, fit three or more ECCMs so we can kill you easier.
Chargon	Posted - 2009.01.28 05:41:00 - [45] I have only one thing to say. T1 ships and FOF.
Avion Saberis	Posted - 2009.01.28 06:34:00 - [46] okay i'ved taken a bit of info here, and it seems that everyone has a like and dislike to the falcon. My opinion is if ya can't lock on them, either use FoF missiles or Smartbombs. Though Smartbombs are only really good if your ship is fast enough for them. There are alot some ways to counter a Falcon, that is fully equipped to screw your targeting over. just cause ya can't lock on to them doesn't mean ya can't beat the **** out of them. i'm an Ewar spec guy, but i've thought of many ways for ppl to try and take me out even when i'm keeping them screwed. So take it from me, this ain't that big of a deal. just rethink your stragety and you'll be fine.
Major Celine	Posted - 2009.01.28 08:46:00 - [47] Originally by: Soporo Didnt CCP in their infinite wisdom BOOST Falcons since their first inception? Added range I believe. Who's the genius that did that and what tf were his reasons is what I want to know. Well, this is correct, but in the same move they reduced the strength of the modules: http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?patchlogID=99 But I think the problem is not the module, it's the fact that people just hate tank + gank + X. They just want to ignore ewar completely by making it useless. ECM just works as intended and that's not acceptable obviously. It must skk.* They can ignore dampners, NOS, tracking disruption and now ECM is the evil boy (even though it hasn't changed for so long). And now we have, surprise surprise, the (c)
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:36:00 - [48] Originally by: Joss Sparq Edited by: Joss Sparq on 26/01/2009 04:47:22 Originally by: Spoon1 And just to show how bad marauders are, a Paladin with two ECCM fitted; 13.77/43=0.32 or 32% chance of jam Marauders are intended to be "bad" and as a result they should be easy to jam. Originally by: Omara Otawan They also boosted ecm jammer strength from 15%/lvl to 20%/lvl recently if I'm not mistaken. Yes, that was pretty much the Falcon "boost" some of you may have heard about. The 5% increase didn't precipitate all the crap on the forums about the Falcon by itself (we can thank Scripts for helping that) but I do find it comical that (as I've said similarly elsewhere) people were only upset because now they couldn't see the Rook coming. IIRC falcon had the same jamming strength as blackbird pre boost, only it had greater range and a cloak. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Mitch Taylor Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:15:00 - [49] What your really saying here is, I dont know how to counter this. If you dont know how to counter long range jammers with crappy hp you need to stop playing with carriers/ewar and the like and go back to t1 frig fights. Mitch
bronyra	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:21:00 - [50] Ecm can take the fun out of eve. Especially when the best counter to say a falcon is a falcon. Instead of allowing different strategies for small gangs it just encourages blobbing as everyone realises that they will lose if they dont have their own falcons or a lot more people either way it leads to less fights. I believe the reducing in nano effectiveness was in part so that people had to commit to a fight, a falcon never really has too. Ewar is a good thing to have in the game as it adds more tactics and variety to fights but given the choice there is very few reasons to take something other than more ecm. I like the idea of keeping ecm duration at 20 seconds but it only jamming a ship for say 10 seconds when successful. It would mean better cooperation between ewar ships was needed. For example: target range damping combined with long range webbing so the ships cant fly into lock range. tracking disrupters removing turret dps while damps or caldari ecm removes missile. ecm combined with scan resolution damping to keep people out of a fight. Hopefully it would provide more diverse fights, as it is now its almost always better to take another falcon over any other type of ewar.
Vampasha	Posted - 2009.01.28 13:08:00 - [51] Originally by: BuckStrider Edited by: BuckStrider on 25/01/2009 15:14:49 Posting in yet another fail 'nerf ecm' whine thread. And really?...You use carriers for gatecamps?...What system is this again? Nerf ewar boats. Carrier has long lock time. Who on earth should you have to remote boost eccm or sensor lock time. He who has the most carriers at a gate camp should win, yes?
Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:54:00 - [52] I never thought the jamm strength was a problem, since having 60 or 230 strength on a carrier doesnt seem to make too much of a difference anyways. Lowering the jamm strength of a falcon would carry the goofy chancebased results over. The real problem to counter falcons is that theyre able to do their work from 230km away. If their optimal+fallof range would be reduced to 80km like the other recons, it would be balanced and counterable again. And no, sniping eccm ships are not the solution here.
Linnth Amarr Darkill Corp	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:11:00 - [53] Proposed Nerf: Create a new system without any jump gates, call it San Francisco. Move all Falcon pilots to that system and let them jam each other all day long.
Zaq Phelps	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:50:00 - [54] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists I never thought the jamm strength was a problem, since having 60 or 230 strength on a carrier doesnt seem to make too much of a difference anyways. Lowering the jamm strength of a falcon would carry the goofy chancebased results over. The real problem to counter falcons is that theyre able to do their work from 230km away. If their optimal+fallof range would be reduced to 80km like the other recons, it would be balanced and counterable again. And no, sniping eccm ships are not the solution here. Like the other recons? Ok... I'll roll with that. I want guns (or missiles, even though they really kind of suck now)... like the other recons. I also want drones... like the other recons. Hmmm... I'll also take bonuses to two different types of ewar... like the other recons. Oh and don't forget, I'll also take ECM being 100% reliable at the same ranges of the other recons. I'll be glad to give up range, and even the ability to lock down 3 targets (reliably, 4-5 targets is just good luck and not likely in fights lasting over 60 seconds). Hmmm... I'm thinking 50m3 drone bay + missiles + ecm/damps reliably doing its job at <80 km on 1-2 targets w/ an armor or shield buffer. If you want the falcon to operate like other recons, then let it operate like other recons. Or, you could just change the ECCM to a sensor booster script and buff its effectiveness. Personally I like the solopwn falcon much better. It's your idea remember? You said "like the other recons." Also, for falcons to jam carriers, they either have to be really lucky or put a whole rack of the proper racials on it, or multis. 12.5/230 = 5.4% chance to jam per jammer, or one out of every 20 cycles. This means for four falcons to reliably jam a carrier (including relock time) they need to apply 10 racial jammers (read 2 prefitted for that situation falcons dedicated to one carrier). Zaq
Major Celine	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:19:00 - [55] Edited by: Major Celine on 28/01/2009 16:25:08 Edited by: Major Celine on 28/01/2009 16:23:53 Edited by: Major Celine on 28/01/2009 16:22:35 Edited by: Major Celine on 28/01/2009 16:19:37 Originally by: Linnth Proposed Nerf: Create a new system without any jump gates, call it San Francisco. Move all Falcon pilots to that system and let them jam each other all day long. You repeat yourself many times in many threads. Lets you look competent. Omg more of your sentence. And more. Are you serious? ...
Vampasha	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:34:00 - [56] Edited by: Vampasha on 28/01/2009 16:35:42 Originally by: Zaq Phelps Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists I never thought the jamm strength was a problem, since having 60 or 230 strength on a carrier doesnt seem to make too much of a difference anyways. Lowering the jamm strength of a falcon would carry the goofy chancebased results over. The real problem to counter falcons is that theyre able to do their work from 230km away. If their optimal+fallof range would be reduced to 80km like the other recons, it would be balanced and counterable again. And no, sniping eccm ships are not the solution here. Like the other recons? Ok... I'll roll with that. I want guns (or missiles, even though they really kind of suck now)... like the other recons. I also want drones... like the other recons. Hmmm... I'll also take bonuses to two different types of ewar... like the other recons. Oh and don't forget, I'll also take ECM being 100% reliable at the same ranges of the other recons. I'll be glad to give up range, and even the ability to lock down 3 targets (reliably, 4-5 targets is just good luck and not likely in fights lasting over 60 seconds). Hmmm... I'm thinking 50m3 drone bay + missiles + ecm/damps reliably doing its job at <80 km on 1-2 targets w/ an armor or shield buffer. If you want the falcon to operate like other recons, then let it operate like other recons. Or, you could just change the ECCM to a sensor booster script and buff its effectiveness. Personally I like the solopwn falcon much better. It's your idea remember? You said "like the other recons." Also, for falcons to jam carriers, they either have to be really lucky or put a whole rack of the proper racials on it, or multis. 12.5/230 = 5.4% chance to jam per jammer, or one out of every 20 cycles. This means for four falcons to reliably jam a carrier (including relock time) they need to apply 10 racial jammers (read 2 prefitted for that situation falcons dedicated to one carrier). Zaq The falcons didn't seem to have much trouble. The falcons not only perma jammed the carrier, they had enough left over to jam the rest of the gatecamp incluing 2 falcons.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2009.01.28 20:01:00 - [57] If they stacking nerf RR - then I can tolerate an ECM nerf. I can't stand rr blobs, and it was a primary reason why I tried ECM, and made sure my usually outnumbered corp did as well. I'd recruit a Caldari HAC pilot if I were you - my uses dual ECCM Cerb's with great effect against Falcons. Sometimes we even pop them - but driving them off is just as good, and then being able to dump >300 dps on your primary from beyond sentry guns is nice too.
Shigsy Neo Spartans	Posted - 2009.01.28 21:09:00 - [58] Originally by: Radcjk Originally by: Shigsy i have maxed out falcon alt This. I have a falcon. Its my main. If nobs would stop dual accounting falcon alts and callnig it 'solo pvp' (rofls), a significant number of these god damn things would go away. The falcon isn't as ****ed up so much as a massively metagaming community. I dont use mine Just something to train on my hauler alt
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.01.29 00:39:00 - [59] Lets compare to <insert any other MMO>: Having healers, CC and support is BORING!! everyone should be warriors and duke it out, seeing your target (or actually yourself) being healed or held down is CRAP, it sucks and just makes things annoying. Lets all use straight forward max damage classes! Sound about right?
Lucia Wilber Minmatar The Steel Vipers	Posted - 2009.01.29 06:16:00 - [60] I don't have much experience with ECM, but just as a thought... Does anyone else think that a relatively good solution to this issue, rather than having ECM jam target locks, would perhaps be to make it so that being target jammed just prevents you from using a turret or launcher, but still allows you to maintain a target lock? Seems like a fair compromise to me...
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.29 06:21:00 - [61] Alright, so let me get this straight. You're saying that a carrier of yours got tackled, and you had to go save him... but are complaining that no one died? Your carrier would have died you had to drop two more capitals into the fight and more ECM in order for the carrier to not die(Also, your 270 sensor strength cap could have spent some time getting a point on and then killing a few of the smaller ships)
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2009.01.29 06:41:00 - [62] Originally by: Vampasha Edited by: Vampasha on 28/01/2009 16:35:42 Originally by: Zaq Phelps Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists I never thought the jamm strength was a problem, since having 60 or 230 strength on a carrier doesnt seem to make too much of a difference anyways. Lowering the jamm strength of a falcon would carry the goofy chancebased results over. The real problem to counter falcons is that theyre able to do their work from 230km away. If their optimal+fallof range would be reduced to 80km like the other recons, it would be balanced and counterable again. And no, sniping eccm ships are not the solution here. Like the other recons? Ok... I'll roll with that. I want guns (or missiles, even though they really kind of suck now)... like the other recons. I also want drones... like the other recons. Hmmm... I'll also take bonuses to two different types of ewar... like the other recons. Oh and don't forget, I'll also take ECM being 100% reliable at the same ranges of the other recons. I'll be glad to give up range, and even the ability to lock down 3 targets (reliably, 4-5 targets is just good luck and not likely in fights lasting over 60 seconds). Hmmm... I'm thinking 50m3 drone bay + missiles + ecm/damps reliably doing its job at <80 km on 1-2 targets w/ an armor or shield buffer. If you want the falcon to operate like other recons, then let it operate like other recons. Or, you could just change the ECCM to a sensor booster script and buff its effectiveness. Personally I like the solopwn falcon much better. It's your idea remember? You said "like the other recons." Also, for falcons to jam carriers, they either have to be really lucky or put a whole rack of the proper racials on it, or multis. 12.5/230 = 5.4% chance to jam per jammer, or one out of every 20 cycles. This means for four falcons to reliably jam a carrier (including relock time) they need to apply 10 racial jammers (read 2 prefitted for that situation falcons dedicated to one carrier). Zaq The falcons didn't seem to have much trouble. The falcons not only perma jammed the carrier, they had enough left over to jam the rest of the gatecamp incluing 2 falcons. Stop, stop, stop, stop!! They had carriers, and with over 230 points in sensorstrength you can just forget about permajamming them. And claiming they permajamming all carriers, and spreading jammers on the rest of the gang?? Both know that is bull****. So just stop it.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.29 07:41:00 - [63] Originally by: Jalif Falcons why you shouldn't use them. 1) See Above 2) People will rather igore you if they can't counter the falcon = you don't get anybody to kill 3) People will BLOB BLOB you just to counter the effect of falcons. If falcon jams 4 people they will bring 4 more people to counter it. Meaning: You don't get a fight because you will leave the battle scene 4) People will bring more falcons which is basicly point 3 which leads to point 1. Welcome to **ED UP EVE with a **ED UP COMMUNITY Your kidding right... All I do is shoot some random person in some low sec or 0,0 system somewhere and get a fleet dropped on my head.
Vasili Z Foundation Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.01.29 10:17:00 - [64] Edited by: Vasili Z on 29/01/2009 10:24:16 I've pvped everywhere, in every kind of corp, and with every kind of player. I can fly every HAC and recon in the game. I've flown in giant BS fleets, small tactical recon gangs, gank gangs, everything. This game is worse when ECM is involved. People who use ECM in my gangs are usually the worst pilots if they're in other ships, I think that's a bit telling. But whatever, I've dealt with it for 4 years, now when I see overwhelming ECM in an enemy gang I just play something else. Also, there is no way in hell a falcon can permajam a carrier with 2 ECCM's... ------- Nipple's mom is pretty large
Zhula Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:01:00 - [65] THIS: Originally by: Vasili Z now when I see overwhelming ECM in an enemy gang I just play something else. generally speaking, If I see a overhelming blob I just play something else. Nobody is forced to give blobs (ECM or conventional) easy kills. Yes its that simple.
Xzar Fyrarr Minmatar Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2009.01.29 20:51:00 - [66] "What fun is it when everyone is jammed solid?" PvP is supposed to be fun? :P PvP is sris bsnis
Mik kyo The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.30 03:03:00 - [67] Originally by: Radcjk This. I have a falcon. Its my main. If nobs would stop dual accounting falcon alts and callnig it 'solo pvp' (rofls), a significant number of these god damn things would go away. The falcon isn't as ****ed up so much as a massively metagaming community. The only time it gets uncloaked is if i'm allready outgunned/getting blobbed. I have several times died on purpose instead of using my falcon when I consider it a good fight. If you actually gained some skill and didn't need to call in a giant gang every time you wanted to kill someone we wouldn't need falcon alts.

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