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Huginn - the useless ship?

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Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:55:00 - [31] Originally by: Bob Arko Originally by: Lilith Velkor Webs are useless now, didnt you get the memo? A decently fit interceptor will outrun Rapier/Huginn even if double-webbed. No it wont. Unless you run out of cap to run MWD. No ceptor can do 1.8-2km/s+ when double webbed. Even overloaded. Anyways... Fit 3 webs. Loss of survivability is drastical and basically you are paper thin but it should work. Speed still depends somewhat on pimpage which with overloading can still get a ceptor going at 1.6k+ when dual webbed which really is too fast. Even before the patch the gist poly snaked claymored drugged overloaded crows would only do 500m/s or so when dual webbed (if you could get daul on them in time) now you need 4 webs to get a fully speed fit inty to that speed.
Neena Valdi Geddonites	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:07:00 - [32] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Bob Arko Originally by: Julius Romanus shrug my nano curse bleeds the same blood. Yes its more useful than your hug, but it's a slow, pig like, hyper expensive killmail waiting to happen, so its not like I'm all that geared up to fly it anymore either. Falcon rules them all. Good luck killing anything, or even stopping it leaving. Falcon is not there for killing or stopping from leaving.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:02:00 - [33] What I really don't get is why ppl insist on putting medium arties or favor projectile turrets over missile launchers in general on a huginn (or even Rapier)... There is something ppl almost intensionally disregard: effective/dependable DPS at intended range and intended speed/transversal: the Minie Recons usually try to be at the edge of scram range, orbiting fast enough to mitigate some dmg - before QR you could speed tank them to immunity in some occasions, now strong buffer tanks are a must for you to stay alive "long enough"... Those distances are not enough to insure arties delivering decent quality hits even on double webbed targets...that was the case even pre-QR with 90% webs, and 2x 90% webbers were way better than 3x 60% webbers are now. Minie nanos, including the Vaga pre-QR delievered moar dps through drones when full-speed orbiting, and the Huginn could and can add dependable dps with missiles...WHY BOTHER with turrets? Sure, fit some dual-180s for anti-frig work, but that's all... As of the anti-falcon role...why not fitting a Vaga for the purpose? or a Gallente Recon with a faction disruptor and ECCM modules etc? It's not like webbers will kill the falcon faster once it's pointed...getting in disruptor range is the problem, not the falcon's speed ffs... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
P'uck	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:03:00 - [34] Edited by: P''uck on 27/01/2009 14:06:06 Originally by: Diomidis Sure, fit some dual-180s for anti-frig work, but that's all... A lot of targets you can just point/web, and then coast around at the end of pointrange without the mwd. Arties can provide good quality hits for that situation. Especially since QR the MWD is meh-ish for damage mitigation, so you just use it to catch/avoid stuff, no need to track that good. And if youre not going full throttle you can even hit with arties out of mwd orbit, especially with a bonused painter on - lets say - a cruiser, for instance. But seeing that these days youre not hunting frigs but defending against them, maybe dual180s just became the better idea. Originally by: Diomidis As of the anti-falcon role...why not fitting a Vaga for the purpose? Vaga only has 4 meds and I believe a lot less base signal strength than ANY recon. Slap 2x ECCM on that huginn and that falcon will either waste all his jammers on you or die. Or both.
Deathhawk mensajero de muerte	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:08:00 - [35] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 26/01/2009 20:55:43 Originally by: Perry You can use target painters! They are very usefull! And now that Speed is dead, Webs are also usefull! Trust me! Webs are useless now, didnt you get the memo? A decently fit interceptor will outrun Rapier/Huginn even if double-webbed. Compare that to the sheer stopping power of the Arazu/Lachesis, one scrambler and they're dead meat. hmmm wonder what would happen if a huginn and a lachesis got together then................. ........ ........... ....
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:38:00 - [36] Originally by: P'uck Originally by: BiggestT edit: Its not all about "killing frigs" you know.. But it's a lot about keeping frigs from killing you. You know, they accumulated A LOT of hate towards minnie recons pre QR, and they're out to getting their revenge. Surprise buttraping huginns/rapiers just got a whole lot easier. This is why solo is bad mm'kay. Your gang should have other frigs/af's to take care of any hostile frigs aswell. Huginn is useful as its excellent for stopping a target dead in its tracks when used in conjuction with a scram. It's also the best defence against ab-ing targets (yes, they do exist). At present, they are excellent for gate camping and stopping targets burning back to the gate.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:45:00 - [37] Originally by: P'uck Originally by: Diomidis As of the anti-falcon role...why not fitting a Vaga for the purpose? Vaga only has 4 meds and I believe a lot less base signal strength than ANY recon. Slap 2x ECCM on that huginn and that falcon will either waste all his jammers on you or die. Or both. And while a lachesis/arazu would actually have 2 bonuses that could be helpful with killing falcons while the huginn has zero, the huginn still COULD have a better chance of getting there in time, if you dont have the bookmarks or the proper teamwork. A single lachesis/arazu can remove multiple "150km-away" falcons quite effectively using a single dampener on each...and tho slower than the Huginn, it's way easier to get into 150ish range from the falcon than the Huginn's operating range. The Vagabond is the only cruiser that is actually fast enough to cover long distances while speed-tanking a bit with it's MWD on, and is able to deliver some punch against a falcon 1 vs. 1 without being insta-jammed - as a ceptor would. It may not be able to spare 2x mid slots for ECCM, but it can spare 2x lows (just like the Huginn suggested above with Ladar Backup arrays) and possibly 1x mid while still achieving nearly 50% better speed than the Huginn. I do believe that the Vaga is one of the best - if not the best anti-falcon cruiser after the Cerberus. IMHO it needs a bit more time to get in range and threat the falcon, but when it does it actually has more chances than the Cerb to kill it, cause it can tackle it/bump it, unlike the latter.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:13:00 - [38] Yeah I brought this topic up a couple times before they deployed the patch. Hyena is a death trap now. Rapier is an expensive semi-decent tackler. Huggin is a rapier with a bit more dps and no cloak............. Falcons, arazu's, curse, pilgrim, etc are all substantially better. Why would I drop 90 mil on a ship when I can get the same job done with a t1 fit rifter? Or a vigil? There is no real reason to fly these ships anymore. Are the t1 frigs paper thin? Yes, but by the time you've insta' webbed and scramed their ass the game is over, you just have to live long enough for the rest of the gang to latch on. (Not hard to do in this small ship era.) Something needs to be addressed because all three of the ships are pretty much worthless. Stop, hammer time.
Major Celine	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:25:00 - [39] I got pwnd so many times by Minmatar ships (Huginns too). So I cross-trained Minmatar. And now there is no real reason anymore, I am very disappointed. No speed, web messed up, Muninn is a no-good sniper and Vaga is only ok for bringing down ratter ravens. CCP should stop nerfing (messing up) things ffs (and should nerf nerf-requests on forums as it can only display opinions of single players). Should I cross-skill Amarr now or is it going to be nerfed as well because of whining?
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:32:00 - [40] Combat Recon < Force Recon - for the most part. Meaningless additional dps and tank. Covert ops cloak makes force recons the way to go. Rapier > Huggin Arazu > Lachesis Falcon > Rook Pilgrim .... OK fine Curse is better due to neut range bonus, however Pilgrim is a good scout and tracking disruptor boat.

P'uck	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:27:00 - [41] Edited by: P''uck on 27/01/2009 16:32:43 Originally by: BiggestT At present, they are excellent for gate camping and stopping targets burning back to the gate. They are just a bit more than decent at doing it. And sometimes you're golden with just sticking an inty on that other side. But I dont want to nitpick around all this details, were just playing captain obvious here. My whole point is they just dropped A LOT in usefulness. Yes, they were borderline overpowered before (partly because everybody else tried to be fast and you could pee on their parade) but now they've taken a sizeable leap in the direction of comedy. I mean... the webs dropped by a friggin third in their strength, thats a LOT for one patch. And "but everybody else got slower, so it doenst matter" isnt really all that valid, since the webbing ship dropped in speed too, and this maneuvering thing is all about speeds being relative to each other. Minmatar got a lot weaker in controlling the engagement, which pretty much was their strength. Which of course doesnt bother people that like caldari ships the most
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:27:00 - [42] I still don't get this. How did everyone miss that the speed changes made target painters really rather brutal. I mean, 50% painting is a massive boost on effective damage on target for everyone in your gang. Two of them is 120% tracking bonus, 120% locking speed bonus, and 120% better off for hitting them with missiles too. What's not to like? Now, like all the recons, it's overshadowed somewhat by it's 'force' recon counterpart, but it's still a rather awesome ship. -- 249km locking?
Bruce Scythe Atomic Mexicans	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:14:00 - [43] Huginn is a great back-up for Phoenix/Naglfar/Raven/Anything with torp launchers. TP and web your enemy, and then watch them get pummelled.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:24:00 - [44] Edited by: Megan Maynard on 27/01/2009 18:27:53 Originally by: James Lyrus I still don't get this. How did everyone miss that the speed changes made target painters really rather brutal. I mean, 50% painting is a massive boost on effective damage on target for everyone in your gang. Two of them is 120% tracking bonus, 120% locking speed bonus, and 120% better off for hitting them with missiles too. What's not to like? Now, like all the recons, it's overshadowed somewhat by it's 'force' recon counterpart, but it's still a rather awesome ship. Because I can drop 5 million isk on a bellicose and do the same damn thing. MWD+disrupter+Painter+Web Throw some signal enhancers and overdrives in the lows and VOILA, most everything is deadsauce. Use a rifter if you want to catch fast stuff, or hell a vigil will do the trick. I'm not paying 90 million isk for a ship that gets no tank and SLOWER then it's t1 counter parts. Did anyone even notice that fact? Why are the t2 versions of the minnies recons and electronic attack ships so much SLOWER then their t1 counter parts? Bellicose is the same base speed as a huggin, and faster then a rapier. Hyena is slower then a vigil. None of the other classes have this problem. Hell the munnin is faster then the rupture which is as fast as the rapier. The jag and wolf are BOTH faster then the rifter, the hound is faster then the breacher, the scimiatr is way faster then the scythe..... The list goes on and on. It's bull that the AMARR get a velocity increase going from t1 to t2 in their recon classes, but the minny get Slower somehow????? WTF? If I want to target paint I'll use a faster cheaper t1 version everytime. All the other recons have a use because they can get on top of a target, except the minmatar which are supposed to be the "fast" race. Stop, hammer time.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:35:00 - [45] Re-reading my last post just ****es me off lol. I'm upset at the fact that flying these ewar ships for minny is no longer any fun. It's not enjoyable to spend that much isk and then do a sub-par job at what it's meant to do. (Stop people dead in their freakin tracks and hold them in place.) The hyena just isn't what it use to be, anything that even looks it's way makes it explode now, and the huggin and rapier will have a hell of a time keeping anything fast from escaping if a lachesis or arazu aren't around. Stop, hammer time.
Major Celine	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:36:00 - [46] Originally by: Bruce Scythe Huginn is a great back-up for Phoenix/Naglfar/Raven/Anything with torp launchers. TP and web your enemy, and then watch them get pummelled. Yeah but Minmatar do not like to be support
Bruce Scythe Atomic Mexicans	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:52:00 - [47] Originally by: Major Celine Originally by: Bruce Scythe Huginn is a great back-up for Phoenix/Naglfar/Raven/Anything with torp launchers. TP and web your enemy, and then watch them get pummelled. Yeah but Minmatar do not like to be support Yeah, especially not to the conformist fascist pigs that are Caldari, right?
Trebor Notlimah Lone Star EVE Group Veni Vidi Vici	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:35:00 - [48] OP Said: "Now, cant speed tank it, sucky dps, cant armor tank it." Stop trying to make the Huginn deal DPS. Just because its classified as a 'combat' recon doesn't mean its intended to do DPS. It used to be a good nano boat, but not anymore. Can't shield tank without losing slots for eWar. All it can do is web and hope not to die -- perfect for a big plate. I've played around with a post nano-nerf Huginn and this is the build that is the most fun and has higher survivability: [QR] Huginn Fleet Fit Lows: 1600mm RT Plate Armor Explosive Hardener II EANM II Mids: 10mn MWD II Warp Disruptor II 3x Webbers or Painters Either another eWar or Medium Cap Booster w/ 800s (depends on how much MWD you think u will need) Highs: Whatever. Heavy Assault Launchers or Arty. Just make sure it hits at 20km. Fit small weapons if needed. It really doesn't matter much. Autocannons if you are more concerned about drones on you then dealing damage to the enemy. Rigs: 2x Targeting SubController I Drones: 3x Medium ECM 2x Light ECM or 3x Valkyrie II 2x Warrior II Tackle and keep an eye out for nano ships, if they show up immediatly switch webs to them. ECM drones on your primary threat. I prefer the cap booster so I can outrun larger drones for the whole fight. Before you start lollering at it - try it.
Trader Jjoe	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:34:00 - [49] The plate idea is interesting, but it actually higlights an issue with the ship. With the above plate setup, as the poster suggest, there really is no way to put any decent dps on this ship. When they killed speed tanking they killed the huggin. Plain and simple.
techzer0 IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.28 03:22:00 - [50] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 27/01/2009 04:07:52 Imo the best way to give it back its teeth is by boosting dps and tank a bit, not necessarily its web strength. - more powergrid so you can at least fit HAMs and 180s plus a decent shield buffer and a gyro / bcu each - plus 10m¦ dronebay for flexibility, can use either 2 waves light drones for antifrigate duty or a set of mediums against cruiser size Thats a combat recon I'd like. Edit: maybe make that 220s even, wouldnt hurt either I don't know your setup, but I can get 2x LSE's and 180s on my Huginn right now. I use Heavies, not HAMs, but meh... HAMs fit with 1 RCU... 331 theoretical DPS with my skills, 377 with all 5s, room for two projectile rigs or w/e you want, plus enough CPU to swap out the two nanos for any lowslot mod, gyros etc. No less survivability than a Vagabond [Huginn, Hugs] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Reactor Control Unit II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Torrent Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Torrent Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Torrent Assault Missile [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Hammerhead II x4 ------------ Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>

Mou'adib Gallente Fluffy Rabbit Killers	Posted - 2009.01.28 03:48:00 - [51] with friends it can tank sentries and be used as the webber in the gang. Rapier doesn't do this as well. I never said it will solo tank them :P
Solid Prefekt Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.28 04:23:00 - [52] Edited by: Solid Prefekt on 28/01/2009 04:24:22 what kills me about the Huginn is the triple weapon system. I mean 3 turret slots, 3 missile slots, 40m3 drone bay, and your bonus is for turrets (so 1/3 of your weapons). Serious, whoever created the Huginn in CCP had to be on crack. The web thing does suck for the Minny Recon, but it has made fighting (with other ships) much more interesting as webs does not equal instant death anymore.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.28 06:01:00 - [53] Originally by: Solid Prefekt Edited by: Solid Prefekt on 28/01/2009 04:24:22 what kills me about the Huginn is the triple weapon system. I mean 3 turret slots, 3 missile slots, 40m3 drone bay, and your bonus is for turrets (so 1/3 of your weapons). Serious, whoever created the Huginn in CCP had to be on crack. The web thing does suck for the Minny Recon, but it has made fighting (with other ships) much more interesting as webs does not equal instant death anymore. Why do ppl insist on Huginn's bonuses being only for turrets...cause ppl rarely do Recon V does not mean 3x bonused launchers with decent support skills do crap dps. On the contrary, the Huginn is quite capablhe as far as combat recons go... It's neither a Muninn, nor a Sacrilege / Cerb to do more than what it does now on a single weapon system.
Pac SubCom A.W.M	Posted - 2009.01.28 07:47:00 - [54] The Huginn, like other Minmatar ships, is designed to operate in a heavily tracking disrupted environment - the reason for multiple forms of damage.
Veryez	Posted - 2009.01.30 04:42:00 - [55] Originally by: James Lyrus I still don't get this. How did everyone miss that the speed changes made target painters really rather brutal. I mean, 50% painting is a massive boost on effective damage on target for everyone in your gang. Two of them is 120% tracking bonus, 120% locking speed bonus, and 120% better off for hitting them with missiles too. What's not to like? Now, like all the recons, it's overshadowed somewhat by it's 'force' recon counterpart, but it's still a rather awesome ship. First off lets get one thing perfectly clear, there was NO BOOST to Target painters. They were inferior before, and the fact that webs got nerfed did not make target painters any better, it is simply now that both forms on Minmatar EW are worse. I'm fairly confident that I have far more hours flying minmatar recons than you have since it's my main ship for PvP. Pre-QR lets see Rapier - Webs, point, Speed tank with slight shield buffer and artillery for some kill mail glory. After QR, no speed tank and reduced webs, so you're suggesting that we remove what to fit this 'great' painter? Our point?, One of our reduced webs? Our MWD? or the little buffer tank that we have? See there's the problem with this ship, Amarr recons use highs and mids for EW, lows for tank, Gal use mids for EW and lows for tank, Caldari use mids for both, but we both know ECM is FAR more useful. Minmatar use mids for EW and tank now that speed is worthless and the disadvantages of fitting a painter simply DO NOT out way it's advantages except in a very specific case (flying with a small gang of torp ravens). If painters had very long range, had significantly better bonuses or were high slot modules there would be more of a case for their use, but for the average gang, webs are almost universally a better choice.
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned B.L.A.C.K.	Posted - 2009.01.30 06:37:00 - [56] Quote: Sure, fit some Warrior II's for anti-frig work, but that's all... Fixed it for you. For all those people complaining about not being able to kill dual webbed inties in a rapier you fail, warrior II's chew through them. As for fitting artillery it's useful for killing cruisers and hacs (vagabonds, thoraxs, deimos etc) you don't have a huge tank on a rapier so you can't go toe to toe with gank fit cruisers, instead use the webs to keep distance on target and use the artillery to take down their hp slowly from a distance. Even a vagabond dual webbed will be going about 1 km/sec my rapier pushes about 2.4 km/sec with mwd on can easily keep distance (remeber to overhead the disruptor ) Also fitting an afterburner on a rapier or huginn is the epitome of fail, makes me very sad when ever I see this on a killmail, for some stupid reason after QR came out people keep fitting afterburners on ships in ******ed fashions, when your ship relies so heavily on dictating range why the hell would you not fit a mwd.
bff Jill	Posted - 2009.01.30 07:19:00 - [57] Let them disable MWD from 20km
Caelwrath	Posted - 2009.01.30 08:25:00 - [58] Its really simple. Just give Hug/Rapier bonus to web speed like Paladin. When they "nerfed" ecm they boosted ecm ships. Do the same for minnie recons. Still won't fix them entirely frankly as minne recons were really only good speed tanked.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.30 08:37:00 - [59] Change target painters to high slot and give them better optimal , that would help a lot.
Damon Runyon Aquila Astrum	Posted - 2009.01.30 14:36:00 - [60] Edited by: Damon Runyon on 30/01/2009 14:36:28 Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 26/01/2009 20:55:43 Originally by: Perry You can use target painters! They are very usefull! And now that Speed is dead, Webs are also usefull! Trust me! Webs are useless now, didnt you get the memo? A decently fit interceptor will outrun Rapier/Huginn even if double-webbed. Compare that to the sheer stopping power of the Arazu/Lachesis, one scrambler and they're dead meat. WTB Sarcasm Detector II



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