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Is suicide ganking still not balanced?

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Marl Xun	Posted - 2009.01.29 18:49:00 - [61] Just a question. Once CONCORD arrives at the scene of an attack, how long do they stick around?
Feilamya Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.29 19:04:00 - [62] Let's see... Stupid people get suicide ganked. Smart people don't get suicide ganked. => Unbalanced, as smart people get an unfair advantage. Needs nerfing!
Eraza Gallente Fuzzyness Enterprizes	Posted - 2009.01.29 19:43:00 - [63] well, it dosnt look too unbalanced really, if he's smart enough to be able to escape the faction navy, good for him i do however have a hard time seeing the logic in insurance being given out in cases where concord was the one that destroyed your ship correct me if i'm wrong, but isnt that like having the fbi ram your car when they are chasing you after you did something to varrant their attention, and when you get out of jail you sue them for damaging your car? i'm pretty sure RL insurance companys would just give you the finger in those cases --- return the mines!
mishkof Caldari Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2009.01.29 20:02:00 - [64] Edited by: mishkof on 29/01/2009 20:03:30 There is one point that I do not understand. I know that -10s can travel safely through hisec in terms of NPC navies in a pod. Cool. I know that you can be killed by players if you are -10 in hisec, however if you beat feet it is hard to do. Cool. If a -10 has an alt orca drop a ship off at a safe spot are they able to then fly to the gate and not be engaged by either the navy, or concord until they actually take part in an aggressive action? Or are they immediately engaged by the factions navy, and then engaged by concord after the criminal act? Basicaly: If a -10 can fly to a gate from a safe spot and not be attacked by the navy while cargo scanning/doing whatever = unbalanced. If a -10 flies to the gate from a safe spot after using an alt to cargo scan and is immediately attacked by the navy, and then attacked by concord after the aggresion but still gets the kill = balanced. At least in my book. If all you have to do is jump in a ship outside of the station to avoid the -10 penalty then that is kinda pointless. Edit = insurance should be cancelled for concord kills.
Morsus Argent	Posted - 2009.01.29 20:40:00 - [65] Originally by: Eraza well, it dosnt look too unbalanced really, if he's smart enough to be able to escape the faction navy, good for him I don't think you have to be particularly smart to get an alt to drop off a ship and board it. If a -10 player with an alt can repeatedly and easily suicide gank players (regardless of how smart or how afk the victims are) there's a problem. Being -10 should make that bloody difficult, and that means a lot harder than getting an alt to drop off a ship.
hedfunk Caldari Low Sec Liberators Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups	Posted - 2009.01.29 21:22:00 - [66] Originally by: Guilliman R I lol at a smart bombing bs trying to single-handedly suicide anything larger then a frig.. Why? You can easily take down haulers as a -10 Smartbombing BS in Jita. In a Geddon, anything over 20m is going to make you profit. ****s and giggles I tell thee!
Sorted Low Sec Liberators Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups	Posted - 2009.01.29 23:37:00 - [67] Originally by: mishkof If a -10 flies to the gate from a safe spot after using an alt to cargo scan and is immediately attacked by the navy, and then attacked by concord after the aggresion but still gets the kill = balanced. Edit = insurance should be cancelled for concord kills. its like that. And if insurance stops being a game mechanic and begins to function like an insurance company I want to see it reomved for low sec, mission runners, 0.0 warfare zones
Sorted Low Sec Liberators Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups	Posted - 2009.01.29 23:38:00 - [68] Originally by: hedfunk In a Geddon, anything over 20m is going to make you profit. ****s and giggles I tell thee! he'd be lucky to break even after loot drops, fits and thiefs..... 150m targets or I dont get outa bed
Grendelsbane	Posted - 2009.01.29 23:41:00 - [69] Is OP on crack? Everyone else flying around in lowsec or 0.0 might get jumped at any time, yet we're doing just fine. Someone jumps you in hisec, and they guaranteed to get pwned. What the hell is there to balance? Don't do stupid **** like autopilot AFK with high value cargo, and you'll be fine. Stop being lazy, start being competent, and quit whining for someone else to hold your hand.
Alora Venoda GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.30 00:44:00 - [70] if an outlaw (without criminal flag) undocks in a ship in hi-sec, won't the sentry guns around the station start shooting him? or is that only if he commits a criminal act? ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Funk solitude	Posted - 2009.01.30 02:32:00 - [71] Originally by: Sorted we are at the nitty gritty - but how can we be expect to listen to you when you lie constantly Mate pls don't call me a liar, it is not true, everything I said happened, and if something happened that I didn't say, well that's not lieing. Everything thing else you said in that post is A ok, good arguments, thumbs up Originally by: Morsus Argent If a -10 player with an alt can repeatedly and easily suicide gank players there's a problem (regardless of how smart or how afk the victims were). Being -10 should make that bloody difficult, and that means a lot harder than getting an alt to drop off a ship. Yep, they sit in jita all day doing this, all he has to do is wait 15 mins for his GCC (CONCORD timer) to expire, then he can gank again. It seems as tho he can almost do this for sport, only costing 10 mil per try, as in my case where he had a 50/50 chance of making 20mil or losing 10mil. Also the faction police (not faction navy) take a while to get to him after he boards the ship and he can probably warp before the police get there specially if his dropper alt aligns the ship for him. Originally by: Tippia Why this artificial limit? It has nothing to do with any of the existing mechanics. well if I had posted: "If I got ganked by an above -2 player in 1.0 space, an above -2.5 player in 0.9 space, an above -3 player in 0.8 space, an above -3.5 player in 0.7 space, an above -4 player in 0.6 space, an above -4.5 player in 0.5 space and an above -5 player in any highsec area, I wouldn't be dissapointed " It woulda been long winded, drawn out and boring as bat shiite. I think everyone new what I meant. Damn nitpickers always trying to discredit the post, picking apart what people they disagree with, say.
Asuna Endorine	Posted - 2009.01.30 03:19:00 - [72] Originally by: Sorted And if insurance stops being a game mechanic and begins to function like an insurance company I want to see it reomved for low sec, mission runners, 0.0 warfare zones um, wouldnt this include just about everyone that would ever have a use for insurance? and i'm pretty sure that's more restrictive then RL insurance
mishkof Caldari Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2009.01.30 03:42:00 - [73] Originally by: Sorted Originally by: mishkof If a -10 flies to the gate from a safe spot after using an alt to cargo scan and is immediately attacked by the navy, and then attacked by concord after the aggresion but still gets the kill = balanced. Edit = insurance should be cancelled for concord kills. its like that. And if insurance stops being a game mechanic and begins to function like an insurance company I want to see it reomved for low sec, mission runners, 0.0 warfare zones Then I am cool with the aggresion mechnaics. The insurance is subjective, however your suggestion makes no sense. Removed for concord sanctioned actions in missions low-sec, and 0.0? Although I am not a role player the SCC(agency that oversees insurance) is apart of the concord council, so why should you get concord sanctioned insurance for non-concord sanctioned kills/deaths, and not get it for concord sanctioned kills/deaths?
mishkof Caldari Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2009.01.30 03:49:00 - [74] Originally by: Grendelsbane Is OP on crack? Everyone else flying around in lowsec or 0.0 might get jumped at any time, yet we're doing just fine. Someone jumps you in hisec, and they guaranteed to get pwned. What the hell is there to balance? Don't do stupid ** like autopilot AFK with high value cargo, and you'll be fine. Stop being lazy, start being competent, and quit whining for someone else to hold your hand. I think you need to reread the OP. The profit cut off for suiciding ganking a large swath of ships in eve is 10 mil. Again, the matter is subjective, however very valid points could be made that 10 million is pocket change in terms of risk when taking part in suicide ganking. If I ever decide stop playing eve I know exactly what I will be doing. Blowing anything up that I can realisticaly break its tank until I am broke. Which at 10 mil a pop (not even including any profit) would be a ** ton.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.30 05:30:00 - [75] Originally by: Funk solitude Damn nitpickers always trying to discredit the post, picking apart what people they disagree with, say. It's called debating. You might want to try it, for instance by answering the questions rather than picking out parts of a post and ignoring the rest.
Alowishus the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.01.30 21:22:00 - [76] So much fail in the "knowledge of current game mechanics" department in this thread. 1) You don't need an Orca 2) You don't need an alt 3) You don't need a cloak 4) You may need evasive maneuvering trained up / nanos / istabs depending on the ship you're using in order to make it all the way to Jita
Julius Rigel House Rigel	Posted - 2009.01.30 21:38:00 - [77] Originally by: Funk solitude Is suicide ganking by -10 sec rated players balanced gameplay? Yes. Scared of the events forum?
Funk solitude	Posted - 2009.01.30 23:22:00 - [78] Originally by: Alowishus So much fail in the "knowledge of current game mechanics" department in this thread. 1) You don't need an Orca 2) You don't need an alt 3) You don't need a cloak 4) You may need evasive maneuvering trained up / nanos / istabs depending on the ship you're using in order to make it all the way to Jita lol, mate the Chubby's (the guys on the other side of this debate) seem qualified to dispense "the knowledge of current game mechanics" as some of their members are doing this. I think you just wanted to say "fail" in a thread in the hope that it handed out some cred. From what they are saying 1) correct, no orca needed 2) all gankers need alts, in this case I think they need 1 to cargo/ship scan, 1 to scoop, 1 to drop a ship off somewhere. These could all be the same alt or different. 3)correct no cloak needed, but that was decided very early in the thread 4)these guys are IN jita already, they don't need to get there. they use battleships and have to tank a faction police spawn for as long as they can. Originally by: Julius Rigel Originally by: Funk solitude Is suicide ganking by -10 sec rated players balanced gameplay? Yes. Care to explain why?
Alowishus the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.01.30 23:30:00 - [79] Originally by: Funk solitude 2) all gankers need alts, in this case I think they need 1 to cargo/ship scan, 1 to scoop, 1 to drop a ship off somewhere. These could all be the same alt or different. Fine, correct, but you don't need an alt to do anything special, like drop a ship for you. Just scout and pick up loot. You can fly right into Jita and suicide anyone you want to. I don't know about the folks living in Jita, sounds interesting. If they're using alts to drop ships for them that's an interesting idea too. But it's not required. Yes, I've high sec ganked before. In fact I did it the other day. What I'm referring to are the people who seem to be baffled by a -10 player using ships in high sec to gank people. Thought that was old news. /makes fart noise
Joiske	Posted - 2009.01.30 23:37:00 - [80] /me points to the 'other' problem... NPC corp gankers .. ie those that sit in npc corps and gank, are also imune and thus the risk v reward situation is crap in this case... what if .... lets say .. ccp change the npc corp situiation so that lets say you gank in a caldari npc corp in caldari space then you are also taking a hit with that faction for being a caldari outlaaw in caldari space .. but then change the npc factions corps into faction war fare style standings ... ok the second part here is to say that a new charcter to game starts in a caldari npc faction corp, but then treated in the same manner as if it were a faction warfare corp, this pilot is safe to fly in cald space but faces being shot in gal space .... now.. this would force the gankers who want to remain in an npc corp to consider the risk to 1) there own standing with such faction or 2) to fly in another faction knowing they will be shot if they enter wrong space ... Which would i think force them to form own corps which then are subject to empire wars and revenge etc etc .. risk and rewards balance is i think restored /me just hopes this makes some sense lol
Funk solitude	Posted - 2009.01.31 00:48:00 - [81] Originally by: Alowishus Fine, correct, but you don't need an alt to do anything special, like drop a ship for you. Just scout and pick up loot. You can fly right into Jita and suicide anyone you want to. I don't know about the folks living in Jita, sounds interesting. If they're using alts to drop ships for them that's an interesting idea too. But it's not required. I am only a gankee not a ganker so i may not be the expert, but to fly a ship from another system would up the risk of being killed by the general population and reduce the window of opportunity, as they need to strike as soon as a juicy target is sighted. also the guy that ganked me, I put him and his alt in my address book and sure enough he sits in jita all day till he logs. Originally by: Alowishus Yes, I've high sec ganked before. In fact I did it the other day. What I'm referring to are the people who seem to be baffled by a -10 player using ships in high sec to gank people. Thought that was old news. It surprised me in the beginning as I thort the faction police where on my side, but now for me its more of an issue of, these guys sitting in npc corps using disposable alts, ganking soft targets all day, without having to burden any real consequences, (except that its harder to do these illegal actions, wich is BS). A -10 coming in out of low-sec or 0.0 to gank when the opportunity is right then going bak to their buisness in "outlaw" space I have no probs with. The char that ganked me I bet has neva even seen low sec, as soon as he trained battleships, smart bombs and tanking, he was sent to jita to start "slaughtering the meek" and has prolly neva left the system since.
Expencive Tastes	Posted - 2009.01.31 07:03:00 - [82] muhahaha i have your stuff.
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.01.31 08:15:00 - [83] the devs have said it enough even you should be able to understand. concord is NOT there to protect you. they dispense justice to someone who is global. he attacked you, he went global. he paid the consequences by losing his ship and taking a sec hit. the fact that he was a -10 already is irrelevant. theres a cap on how low sec goes. sec has very tangible penalties, and he was restricted in many ways. the faction navy is not there to protect you, they are there to chase him around even before he commits a crime. they chased him and shot him, as they should. would you care to show me where the issue is?
Southern Suzy Minmatar THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2009.01.31 09:23:00 - [84] Whats up with this terrible posting about normal gameplay. WORKS AS INTENDED GET OVER IT /thread
Funk solitude	Posted - 2009.01.31 15:18:00 - [85] Edited by: Funk solitude on 31/01/2009 15:21:00 Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux the devs have said it enough even you should be able to understand. concord is NOT there to protect you. they dispense justice to someone who is global. he attacked you, he went global. Mate, we all know concord is there to punish criminal acts, I'm not Implying concord should have saved me from being ganked. I'm quite fine with ganking, I live in a household where I have to go afk often, so I'm quite used to being ganked lol. Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux he paid the consequences by losing his ship and taking a sec hit. the fact that he was a -10 already is irrelevant. theres a cap on how low sec goes. Now this statement is utter BS, He lost nothing, and for Illegally killing me he had to bear no extra consequences. lost his ship you say, well I bet his dropper alt had a new 1 ready to go before his GCC timed out (15mins) thru that ever argued insurance payout. and his sec status moved not a point, he could do everything after he illegally killed me that he could do before. ^ \| \| this is where the sec rating system imho is breaking down, there is no scale to it, once you tip over a threshold (2.5 for jita) you can be a criminal all you like without it getting progressively worse for you. I would luv to see the faction police response change depending on sec staus. eg. if your -3 in jita (.5 under the KOS sec rating) you should only encounter light to medium resistance and be able to warp off if ur quick and still be able to gank a player. If your a -10 (criminal with obvious disregard for the law) you should be locked, scrammed and popped almost instantly. with the rest scaling in between those 2 extremes. Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux sec has very tangible penalties, and he was restricted in many ways. So he was restricted in many ways was he, well boohoo, poor fella. FFS he is a criminal of the worst kind (-10) he did things to deserve those restrictions and I believe the restrictions don't go far enough for a criminal of his caliber. Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux the faction navy is not there to protect you, they are there to chase him around even before he commits a crime. they chased him and shot him, as they should. The faction police (not faction navy as every1 wrongly states) ARE there to protect the law abiding pod pilots(-1.99's) from criminals (-2's and under) if they weren't then why would they be chasing him around. If my legal dealings in high sec can't be protected from the worst criminal's unlawful dealings, then the faction police aren't doing their job. As I just stated above tho, I think there should be allowances for criminals of a lesser nature ---> Caldari police 3rd lieutenant sais to Caldari police commissioner; "he's only -3, can't I finish this doughnut and coffee first before we put a cap in his ass" So if he wants to draw a lesser response from the police, he should have to work/grind for it (like the rest of us) by killing rats in the belts, If he doesn't want do that then he should stay out in lawless space. Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux would you care to show me where the issue is? I tested the response of the police on sisi, it took over 1min:40 to pop my tanked rokh. <--- this is where the issue is. way too much leniency for a repeated criminal who is not tolerated in that space. Also he gets his ship back every time, all he has to is waste 10 mil every try on modules.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.01.31 16:16:00 - [86] Edited by: Qui Shon on 31/01/2009 16:17:44 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Funk solitude Yes the -10 ganker and his hauler alt hangs out in jita all day, somehow he avoids the attention of the caldari police. they have both posted in this thread 2 & 3 posts above this one. This is by design. Hopefully it will be re-designed soon, to remove the virtually free ganking that goes on without any noteworthy consequences. Quote: Quote: If i was ganked by a player with a sec rating above -2, I wouldn't have a beef with it. Why this artificial limit? It has nothing to do with any of the existing mechanics. FALSE. It has to do with the cap for negative sec rating, which effectively removes the sec penalty of ganking, as I explained in an earlier post. With only -2's ganking, at least they have to exert the minimal effort to regain the sec status after a gank, before thay can do it again. As pitifully small as that effort is, at least it's something, whereas now there is nothing for -10's doing it. I think I should make a sig that calls for the removal of insurance. After that we can talk about the possibility of removing caps on standing, and making stanging changes linear, but the important bit is the insurance.
Geezelbub	Posted - 2009.01.31 17:30:00 - [87] Edited by: Geezelbub on 31/01/2009 17:33:24 Edited by: Geezelbub on 31/01/2009 17:32:55 lol this guy lost an assault frig Crap...my Jita alt got nailed 1 second out of C4 Navy Assy with 250M+ in assorted goodies in "Cargo Container", which was destroyed. I was completely lagged out and couldn't warp...So I was out my cargo and ship, but the ganker/his alts didn't get squat. My alt runs in and out of Jita on a daily/multiple times daily basis. Stab(s), Burner...Warp to zero, freakin jump. Rinse, repeat. Haven't been hit in months....targeted...yep...shot at...yep. Killed....just that once. I learned something that day. When near Jita....stay glued to screen and keyboard, keep your wits about you, and just freakin fly safe. edit: a completely cheap, non hauler ship with cargo in secure containers REALLY helps against the smart ones who scan ya lookin for something of value.
Funk solitude	Posted - 2009.02.01 03:07:00 - [88] Originally by: Geezelbub lol this guy lost an assault frig It's not about what I lost, whether I was noobish, what you do in similar situations or giving me advice, I'm not upset about losing my ship. Its about -10 outlaws continually ganking in hi-sec without any tangible consequences and your thoughts on that issue. I bet the guy that got you wasn't an outlaw, he woulda been waiting outside 4-4 with sensor boosters and a gank fit, which is ok, he has every right to be in that space. If that same fella does that over and over, well then I believe it should get harder and harder for him to gank till he has outstayed his welcome and goodwill and the faction police pop him on site the second he gets in a ship.
EnslaverOfMinmatar	Posted - 2009.02.01 05:04:00 - [89] DIIIIIEEEEEE
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.01 06:48:00 - [90] Originally by: Tippia They've implemented a mechanic that gives outlaws minor worries when travelling through civilized space. They've included mechanics that make it possible to dodge the navies. (Insert obligatory LOL @ OP for being Suicide Ganked, here) Ahem, 1) Assuming that the "mechanic that gives outlaws minor worries when travelling through civilized space" is their being chased by NPC Navy ships and furthermore, 2) Assuming that the "mechanics that make it possible to dodge the navies" is the boarding of a previously prepared ship which has been delivered to the location by an Alt and ejected from, allowing the negative security status Character to board and carry on free of Navy interference, I'm under the impression that assumption number one above is an intended game mechanic. However, assumption number two appears (to me) to be a manipulation of the current game mechanics to avoid the mechanisms of assumption number one. I certainly don't recall ever noticing anyone from CCP posting an official statement along the lines of "If you want to avoid Navy interference when a Character has a security status that would normally result in a Navy spawn attacking them, just have the negative status Character board a ship you've prepared with an Alt and then carry on as usual because avoiding Navy spawns like that is perfectly okay and intended by us!". If there is such an announcement then I'd be happy to be linked to it as definitive proof and we can all get back to laughing at the OP. As it is, I am curious to know if this could also be used by people engaging in Faction Warfare to avoid Navy spawns in the Systems of the opposing Faction. I'm inclined to suspect that if it does then that would certainly be regarded as an exploit which would be punished. Otherwise it does sound like an exploitation of game mechanics to avoid the intended consequences of having a negative security status in secure space where such status should result in a Navy attack by avoiding the "check" ran by the game on undock and jumping into a system.

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