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% speed of SP gain in relation to SP held....

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Loneez	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:10:00 - [1] Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:12:29 I was just wondering why CCP never considered this to cater to the newbie complaints and still allow the veterans their higher SP's. Let me explain in more detail Depending on the level of SP you have your speed at learning or should I say amount of SP gained is increased or decreased by a percentage So for example when you have 1mil SP with x amount in learning skills then you gain 500% extra SP when learning skills. This obviously can change slightly through the learning skills. This would allow for a quicker transition at lower skill levels and thus new people would feel a quicker progression through the lower SP levels. As you gain more and more SP lets say upto 5million SP then that static variable changes from 500% to 400% so you slow down on SP gain. This would continue until a set 100% a kind of plateau at say 50million SP or higher it would obviously have to be tested. It wouldn't drop below this plateau. When expansions and such are released with lots more skills etc then the percentage for each tier can be increased again This would eliminate the complaints by new people that they will never catch up with high level characters, and at the same time it would appease veterans because it would take A LONG time for people to actually catch up and so would hardly be noticeable to veterans. I really think it would allow for a greater retention of players, because for ALOT of people I have tried to convert to eve there first complaint is that they will never catch up with veterans so what is the point...ignorant yes, but it is a reality that blocks alot of people from playing this wonderful game Any comments welcome, of course you can ostracise me if you so choose

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:12:00 - [2] It's not about the amount of SP, it's how you use it.

Lui Kai Logistics Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:13:00 - [3] People who are worried about "catching up" in SP have really not figured out how Eve works.
Loneez	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:14:00 - [4] Yeah but to the majority of new players higher numbers will always appear better Its basic semantics of MMORPG's if you are lvl 1 you are crap compared to a lvl 40 If you have 10million SP you are crap compared to a 30million SP character, you and I know this isn't true, but to the ignorant new player they can't help but make this assertion
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:16:00 - [5] Originally by: Loneez Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:12:29 I was just wondering why CCP never considered this to cater to the newbie complaints and still allow the veterans their higher SP's. Oh gosh, a game? That gives higher rewards for spending time with the game? Noooooo. Let me rephrase that; Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. It's called character development.
Myfanwy Pisces P H O E N I X	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:17:00 - [6] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Loneez Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:12:29 I was just wondering why CCP never considered this to cater to the newbie complaints and still allow the veterans their higher SP's. Oh gosh, a game? That gives higher rewards for spending time with the game? Noooooo. Let me rephrase that; Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. It's called character development. Someones been watching zero punctuation Good on ya, I only found that last night...
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:18:00 - [7] Originally by: Lui Kai People who are worried about "catching up" in SP have really not figured out how Eve works. ^^ This. Originally by: Loneez If you have 10million SP you are crap compared to a 30million SP character, you and I know this isn't true, but to the ignorant new player they can't help but make this assertion So the solution is to educate them, not to pander to their flawed assumptions. Also, your idea kind of goes against the EVE philosophy of diminishing returns from training higher skill levels.
Loneez	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:19:00 - [8] Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:23:01 But people don't want to be educated when they first start a game, they just want to jump in and have fun Without that element they lose interest and leave. Without the feeling of progression they leave Either that or you just sub a month leave your character training and not return till he hits 10mill SP in like 4-5months or longer Explaining to players that 30million SP is no better than 10million SP is like saying to your partner "It's ok honey its not the size that counts, its what you do with it!" Everyone knows thats a comment to save the ego of less endowed gentlemen, but in reality everyone knows it DOES matter, so why bother trying to educate people into convincing themselves it doesn't
Ralitge boyter Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:25:00 - [9] Edited by: Ralitge boyter on 30/01/2009 09:25:44 I wonder if you ever thought about CCP and their customer satisfaction? What I mean is when I am an older character lest say playing for the past 4 years I have thus paid CCP $717,- just to play EVE. Now a new player joins eve they are able to train at 500% of my speed till they get close to where I am at currently... this speed increase will also have to be higher and higher as time goes on because of course once I add another $717,- to my subscription fee then I will end up at roughly double my current number of skill points thus the new players will have to train at a 1000% of my speed in order to be able to catch up with me. In the end you will end up with a player getting 100M sp in a week or so, maening that you will need to change your skills every milisecond or so... All players will kill their characters every few months to start over with faster training and a more specialized character, so no more older players in the game only a large group of week old characters. On top of that you want to gain on me because you choose to start later. So you want all my time, money and effort I have put in to this game to be void. I don't see how that would keep people who are currently playing happy. Yes new players will be happy but many of the old players will leave as they see all their hard work disapear and all their time and money become worthless. Some how I doubt that CCP will ever want people to "catch up" as a new player might quite tomorrow, where a person that has been playing for months or even years is far more likely to continue doing so for a long time to come. So please stop comming up with wonderful new ways for new players to catch up it will never happen because CCP knows very well that their game will only continue to exist as long as there are older players that the new players can look up to and can strive to beat someday.
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:27:00 - [10] Originally by: Lui Kai People who are worried about "catching up" in SP have really not figured out how Eve works. This. Also the threshold of 50 million SPs put forth by the OP as the place to slow training down to normal is just ridiculous. Do you guys have any comprehension of how many skills you can get to 4/5 with 50 million SPs? It's huge, unless you spec entirely into the most point-intensive stuff.
Loneez	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:32:00 - [11] Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:32:42 You last couple of guys really don't understand what I am stating are you..... I am not suggesting increasing to 1000% or anything like that, and besides when you add another $717 to your character new characters will begin with probably 10million SP to the 1million SP they get now..so...where is your point? The suggestion just allows younger characters to move through the lower set of SP skills quicker Just because you gave CCP $717 doesn't mean they owe you some kind of satisfaction. They are a business aiming to increase there turnover and introduce new players so you can enjoy more PvP or greater PvE or even better expansions because they have the money to do it. The 50million SP is a suggestion, read that sentence over and over, a S U G G E S S T I O N its open to interpretation and is just a number pulled from thin air. If I was to write out a full proposal it would involve consultation from experienced Eve players etc etc I can't see what the problem is with allowing players who just start out with a higher % of speed gain in SP Its no different than someone buying the boxed version of Eve and having 10million SP from the get go...don't see you screaming blue murder about this prospect...? Or you gonna throw out the money you spent on CCP again to justify your reasoning for them catering the game to you choice...
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:32:00 - [12] honestly eve should instead list a number called something like... Character Skill level this takes each point of skill levels you have gained and makes a number. so if you have all your skills at level 4, but only 20 million sp, it will show your character skill level as the total of skill level. so a level 4 skill gives you 4 points. This shows you how many actually skills you have, not how long you have been playing. so you could have 500 skill levels, but only 20 million sp, while another character with 40 million sp only has 400 skill levels. the character with less sp is actually more effective in combat, so that player should have a higher skill level number. more sp doesn't mean more skills.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:33:00 - [13] Originally by: Loneez But people don't want to be educated when they first start a game, Tough. All new games require education. Quote: they just want to jump in and have fun They already can. Quote: Without that element they lose interest and leave. Without what element, exactly? If they don't have fun due to how skills are trained, I'd say that their view of "fun" is such that we're better off without them. They'll probably have a great time in some bot-infested FPS (because that's the kind of players they are), and are free to stay there… Quote: Without the feeling of progression they leave Eh? You start to progress the second you understand "rclick-train skill"… Once again, it's a matter of education. Quote: Either that or you just sub a month leave your character training and not return till he hits 10mill SP in like 4-5months or longer Fortunately, you can't do that any more… Quote: Explaining to players that 30million SP is no better than 10million SP is like saying to your partner "It's ok honey its not the size that counts, its what you do with it!" Everyone knows thats a comment to save the ego of less endowed gentlemen, but in reality everyone knows it DOES matter, so why bother trying to educate people into convincing themselves it doesn't So don't use that analogy? A better question is: why change the system to match an entirely incorrect view of the game?
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:37:00 - [14] Originally by: Myfanwy Pisces Someones been watching zero punctuation Good on ya, I only found that last night... Yahtzee didn't invent sarcasm you know My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Maria Kalista	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Loneez Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:23:01 But people don't want to be educated when they first start a game, they just want to jump in and have fun And in EVE that means you will probably die. Originally by: Loneez Without that element they lose interest and leave. Then this was not the game for them anyway. I hear WoW is still around. Originally by: Loneez Without the feeling of progression they leave I restarted 5 months ago from scratch. No isk insertion, I just went in like a normal noob. After character creation I had my mining skills up to 5, and after doing all 3 noob agent missions I had 4-5 ships, a ton of skillbooks, a couple of blueprints and near a million isk. How is that for progression? Originally by: Loneez Either that or you just sub a month leave your character training and not return till he hits 10mill SP in like 4-5months or longer I'm 5.5 months old have a bit more then 6 million SP and am soloing lvl 4's (mostly) with ease. Originally by: Loneez Explaining to players that 30million SP is no better than 10million SP is like saying to your partner "It's ok honey its not the size that counts, its what you do with it!" Exactly! Originally by: AkRoYeR ...the beauty of EvE. You have to live on the edge all the time. If you don't stay frosty, you will die! Best game ever!
Loneez	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:41:00 - [16] Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:45:00 Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:43:08 Quote: Without what element, exactly? If they don't have fun due to how skills are trained, I'd say that their view of "fun" is such that we're better off without them. They'll probably have a great time in some bot-infested FPS (because that's the kind of players they are), and are free to stay thereà Its alienating comments like that, that make you even worse than a WoW-kiddie. Just because you play Eve doesn't make you better or more superior to other gamers. In fact the whole ethos you adopt there is a key reason why CCP can't get abover 60,000 unique subscribers and quote 250,000 subscribers when in reality we all know that at least a third of those subscribers are alts of people. Its just I have tried to introduce many of my friends to this game recently and they are educated PHD students and they cannot believe me when I state that someone with 10million SP can be just as good with someone with 50million SP as long as they train in the same area It just doesn't make sense to them, because they then bring in the fact that the versatility in skills allows them a greater choice in varying combat scenarios and therefore they don't see the point in beginning in a game where they are forever playing catchup. In games like Dark Ages of Camelot of EQ2 even if people are in raid gear and such, the perception is still that an individual person can catch them up if they put in the effort. You and I know that they probably never will catch up the raid gear person because as new content is released they will go into the new raid content and such the catch up game begins But its the perception, the perception that YOU CAN catch that person up. In Eve this perception is just impossible with the methodology attached to skilling up
Nicholas Barker Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:44:00 - [17] y'all be posting in a troll thread, that or he's a stubborn idiot. ------
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:45:00 - [18] People with lots of skill points already progress at a slower rate than new players. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Loneez	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:47:00 - [19] Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:47:55 Originally by: Nicholas Barker y'all be posting in a troll thread, that or he's a stubborn idiot. I am not trolling I am making a valid point, besides the fact that CCP is going to make an announcement which quoting from a CSM "Is going to make new players very happy, and annoy veterans" makes me wonder if this is an approach they may be considering Of course I probably completely off the mark but this stubborness to alienate new players is a key reason why you see 100,000 new subscribers+ to eve leave within the first 3 months Am I not able to have a discussion about skill point system changes without people trying to lynch me?
Cors It's A Trap	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:50:00 - [20] It takes 6 months to be GOOD at something in EVE. It takes years to be good at MANY things. My main is good at MANY things. My newest alt is good at ONE thing. If you are a new player, learn to be good at ONE thing. Once you are, then become good at ANOTHER thing. Keep this up and one day you'll be good at MANY things. This is the difference between a noob and a veteran. Drop this idea of skills "Speeding up/Slowing down" depending on how old the char is.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:52:00 - [21] Originally by: Loneez I am not trolling I am making a valid point, It's not though and furthermore, new players start with 1000% higher SP then we did already. If you think you had it rough with 900k SP, try starting with 90k My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Loneez But its the perception, the perception that YOU CAN catch that person up. In Eve this perception is just impossible with the methodology attached to skilling up Funny that, seeing as how the exact opposite is true. Explain to your stupid PhD friends (one does not exclude the other, unfortunately) about the low skill level caps, about the diminishing returns for higher levels, about the special-use and usage restriction cases that make versatility highly situational, about the many many ways of playing the game which also make versatiliy less effective since you can't be competetive in everything, about the fact that you can lose skillpoints, etc etc etc. I told my PhD friends about this, and they got a very dreamy look in their eyes… and then they remembered that they don't like permaloss-PvP, and decided that EVE wasn't for them. I told them that that was probably a sensible decision. Which leads back to the same old question: why does the system need changing to match an ignorant view of how the game works? What's so bad about not retaining players who don't like the game, and who actively refuse to be educated in why they might like it? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Loneez	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:53:00 - [23] Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:54:28 Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:53:36 Originally by: Cors Drop this idea of skills "Speeding up/Slowing down" depending on how old the char is. Fair enough I'll drop it, just another statistical loss for CCP losing another subscriber due to the "6months needed to be good" at something Remind me in future when I have to spend ú13 x 6months = ú78 to actually become good at the game in one area or ú13 x 12 months = ú156 to actually dare I say become possibly good in more than one area.... Cheers
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:55:00 - [24] Originally by: Loneez Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:53:36 Originally by: Cors Drop this idea of skills "Speeding up/Slowing down" depending on how old the char is. Fair enough I'll drop it, just another statistical loss for CCP losing another subscriber due to the "6months needed to be good" at something Remind me in future when I have to spend ú13 x 6months = ú78 to actually become good at the game in one area Cheers Any other MMO out there, not gonna say it, requires you to spend time, not gonna say it, to get good and to reach the level twitches others are on. It's no different here. It shouldn't be. It takes time to get good, like in WoW DAMN! you can't expect to "pwn" a level 80 when you "jump in". My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:57:00 - [25] you can catch up. idiot, learn some math.
Yelan Zhou Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:57:00 - [26] As a semi new player I can only say the op is wrong.I am 5 months here now and that time was a blast.I pvp since my second week in EvE and sure, there are lots of things I cant do, guess what, I have goals. I joined EvE because I am tired of MMOs spoonfeeding me so please leave it as it is.
Loneez	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:58:00 - [27] Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:58:14 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Any other MMO out there, not gonna say it, requires you to spend time, not gonna say it, to get good and to reach the level twitches others are on. It's no different here. It shouldn't be. It takes time to get good, like in WoW DAMN! you can't expect to "pwn" a level 80 when you "jump in". Fair point
Loneez	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:59:00 - [28] Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 10:00:32 Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:59:49 Originally by: Yelan Zhou As a semi new player I can only say the op is wrong.I am 5 months here now and that time was a blast.I pvp since my second week in EvE and sure, there are lots of things I cant do, guess what, I have goals. I joined EvE because I am tired of MMOs spoonfeeding me so please leave it as it is. I am not asking Eve to spoon feed, what part of speeding up skill points gain, is exactly spoon feeding? I am not talking about a dramatic speed increase just something to give the impression people can catch up Wow the internet really is an amazing place for understanding, I have no idea where spoonfeeding came into this? And where did I say speeding up Skillpoint gain would prevent people from having goals, or diminish those goals....? Totally confused by that post
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.30 10:01:00 - [29] Originally by: Yelan Zhou As a semi new player I can only say the op is wrong.I am 5 months here now and that time was a blast.I pvp since my second week in EvE and sure, there are lots of things I cant do, guess what, I have goals. I joined EvE because I am tired of MMOs spoonfeeding me so please leave it as it is. and in the time you learn all those new skills and increased your effectivness in battle.. you know what? an onlder player only gain 2 or 4 levels. While you have gained at least 30-40 levels. newer players level up faster in eve, it's how it was set up.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.30 10:02:00 - [30] Originally by: Loneez I am not trolling I am making a valid point, besides the fact that CCP is going to make an announcement which quoting from a CSM "Is going to make new players very happy, and annoy veterans" makes me wonder if this is an approach they may be considering Except that that wasn't quite what he said, now was it? Quote: Of course I probably completely off the mark but this stubborness to alienate new players is a key reason why you see 100,000 new subscribers+ to eve leave within the first 3 months You have a source for this, I hope? Quote: Am I not able to have a discussion about skill point system changes without people trying to lynch me? Sure you can, as long as you don't suggest things that make no sense, with a logic that's entirely based on how it doesn't work in this game. Education is a far better way of changing those perceptions you so fear, rather than adding another layer of misdirection on top of those already flawed views.

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